Author Topic: 38Super and 9x23 in Witness  (Read 5317 times)

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Offline stretch64

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38Super and 9x23 in Witness
« on: November 10, 2006, 10:58:57 PM »
I just received a new 38 Super upper for my Witness and thought I'd start a thread regarding 38 Super and 9x23 loads in the Witness pistols.
             
             First of all, I'm not suggesting that the Witness pistols are designed to shoot 9x23...they aren't. 38Super runs about 35,000 psi, while 9x23 runs about 46,000 psi... a significant difference. Also the 38Super is a straight walled case, while the 9x23 is a tapered case, so the chambers are not the same. SAAMI shows shooting 38Super in a 9x23 chamber to be an unsafe practice, but does not show shooting 9x23 in a 38Super to be an unsafe practice. Does that mean it's safe? NO. If you go down this path, you do so at your own risk. Also, there is not much published data on 9x23 loads, so anything listed here should be considered experimental and used at your own risk.
           
             I look forward to the input from others.
           
             If the moderators feel this thread is inappropriate, please remove it.
           
             First a picture showing cross sections of various 38Super brass versus Winchester 9x23 brass:
           
           
            Wanting to see what the effects of the lower case volume would be, I started with a mild 38Super load of 4.9gr of VV N320. All cartridges were loaded to an OAL of 1.250 with a Hornady HAP 125gr JHP (.356) and Federal Small Rifle primers.
           
            Remington 38Super +P nickel:
             868.5 fps
             354.3 ES
             132.6 SD
            Not enough pressure for efficient burn.
           
            Starline 38SuperComp:
             1083 fps
             130.6 ES
             45.33 SD
            Better, but not great.
           
            Winchester 9x23:
             1139 fps
             52.64 ES
             16.67 SD
            Now we're getting a more efficient burn, but I'm also almost at case capacity. No bulging or case deformation. If it wasn't for the dented primer, powder residue, and chamber scratches, you wouldn't even know it was a fired case. Lighter recoil than factory Remington 38Super 130gr FMJs.
           
            For comparison, factory Remington 38Super 130gr FMJ load:
             1145 fps
             81.78 ES
             25.76 SD
           
            I should also note, I had three restrikes in 100 rounds on the Federal Small Rifle primers with a 15lb mainspring. I'll be increasing to a 16lb mainspring. At this point I think the Small Rifle primers were overkill, but I was playing it safe.

Offline ReloaderFred

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38Super and 9x23 in Witness
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2006, 02:23:18 PM »
I've never loaded any of the Vit. powder, mainly due to the cost, and I've got plenty of other powders that do well.  There is data from Winchester with both WW 231 and WAP (discontinued) for the 9x23.  Ramshot Silhouette is the same powder as WAP, and in my limited experiments, it matches the data for WAP pretty closely across my chronograph.
           
            In the Witness .38 Supers that I've fired 9x23 ammunition in, the 9x23 brass doesn't expand at all.  The fired brass will still drop into a .38 Super case gauge before being resized.
           
            You're doing the right thing by working up slowly, and I'll be interested to see where you end up with this.
           
            You're photography of the cross sections is really good.  You can see that Starline uses a backing for the punch for the flash holes, the same as Scharch does.  It makes for a much more uniform flash hole.  I still have concerns about the ability of Starline to hold their specs, though.  I've found too much variation in wall thickness in their .38 Super Comp and 9mm Super Comp brass to make me comfortable with it.  They also had some consistancy problems recently with some of their 10mm brass.  Mike McNett found that out when some of his regular loads were rupturing cases in the newer brass and had to recall quite a bit of it.  He found that the brass was thinner than the brass he had purchased from Starline in the past.  I've found Winchester to be much more consistant in 9x23.  
           
            Thanks.
           
            Fred
After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs

Offline stretch64

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38Super and 9x23 in Witness
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2006, 09:53:16 PM »
Thanks Fred. Actually Silhouette was my powder of choice for developing the 9x23 loads, but when I went to the cabinet I only had about 50 grains left. Hate it when that happens.
           
            There's a little more potential in the N320 loads, but not much as case capacity becomes an issue. I ran a couple hundred rounds through the gun today and it ran pretty clean. Just a light powdery residue around the breech and barrel support that wiped right off with a dry patch.

Offline stretch64

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38Super and 9x23 in Witness
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2006, 01:17:43 AM »
Ran some more 9x23 loads through today. All cases were new Winchester 9x23 with Federal Small Rifle primers, bullet Hornady 125gr HAP JHP .356, and an OAL of 1.250.
           
            N320 4.5gr
            1055 fps
            188.4 ES
            63.35 SD
            Almost like shooting a .22. Very light recoil.
           
            N320 5.1gr
            1181fps
            17.78 ES
            6.48 SD
           
            N320 5.3gr
            1095 fps
            887.0 ES
            348.7 SD
            This load went way wierd on me. I know the charges were accurate because all loads were hand weighed by throwing light with the powder measure and trickle charging up to weight on a scale. I also noticed delayed unlocking and slow slide movement. Just to check, I ran a second string on the chrono of the same load with similar results.
           
            N320 5.5gr
            1233 fps
            20.64 ES
            6.48 SD
            The numbers look good, but the problem with delayed unlocking and slow slide speed persist.
           
            Continued up with 5.7gr and ended with 5.9gr, which is just short of a compressed load. The problems with delayed unlocking and slow slide speed were present in these loads also. I suspect the pressure curve is too fast in the loads above 5.1gr, but I'd be interested in other opinions.
           
             Fast powders seem to have a very narrow window of charge weights between efficient burning and max usable pressure in this cartridge. The results also were no better than standard 38 Super loads.
           
             Moving on to Ramshot Silhouette:
           
            Silhouette 7.0gr
            1304 fps
            67.81 ES
            24.53 SD
           
            Silhouette 7.2gr
            1310 fps
            24.99 ES
            8.66 SD
           
            Silhouette 7.4gr
            1337 fps
            59.11 ES
            16.15 SD
           
            Silhouette 7.6gr
            1354 fps
            25.12 ES
            7.68 SD
           
            Silhouette 7.8gr
            1375 fps
            23.04 ES
            8.30 SD
           
            There was very little difference in perceived recoil in the Silhouette loads, and all had a little softer recoil than factory Remington .38 Super 130gr load.
           
            Switched to a 16lb mainspring and didn't have any restrikes this time.
           
            Didn't have a chance to check accuracy of the loads as the rear sight on my new slide headed west shortly after finishing the chrono session.

Offline stretch64

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38Super and 9x23 in Witness
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2006, 12:47:04 AM »
A note on magazines:
           
            I have two magazines for steel framed Witness (red follower) and two for poly Witness (black follower) all marked "Tanfoglio Italy" on the baseplate (the baseplates do not interchange with my Mecgar .45 base plates, and the followers do not interchange between the steel and poly mags). Both work fine in my steel framed gun. There is a difference in the internal dimensions of the magazines. The ones for the steel frame measure 1.2920 ID front to back, and the ones for the poly frame measure 1.3095 ID.
           
            Winchester 38Super 125gr Silvertips measure 1.270 OAL and will not fit in the steel frame mags, but they do fit in the poly frame mags (barely).