CZ 75 TSO Issue

[quick66]

I recently purchased a new TSO.  I received it last Friday and took it to the range the following day to shoot it for the first time.  Initial impressions were very positive.  The pistol weight was good, I like the longer sight radius, thumb rest and the trigger was amazing.  I started shooting from 7 yards and then moved to 10.  It was very easy to hit the target well at these distances.  This is a serious shooter!  I shot about 170 rounds before the problems started. 

The trigger would not function when the slide was racked either manually or by cycling a round.  If I pulled the hammer all the way back by hand the trigger would work.  I decided it was best not to shoot any more until I could diagnose the problem further.  I ended my session early and took the pistol home to perform a field strip and inspection.  Turns out the clear plastic buffer on the guide rod was almost completely destroyed and the right side safety was missing completely.  I wish I had noticed this before leaving the range and I would have tried to retrieve it.

Honestly I was both shocked and disappointed to experience this failure with what should be a very reliable, nevermind expensive, pistol.  I contacted the dealer I purchased it from and they said it would have to go back to CZ-USA for repair.  After speaking with CZ-USA they sent me a return label to have the pistol shipped back.  The return label only carried $400 insurance.  I called them back and they said that they had an agreement with the shipper and were anything to happen they would take care of me.  I couldn?t bring myself to put the firearm in the mail without having adequate insurance, so I ended up having to come out of pocket $75 for 2day fedex and to have it boxed properly.  I was also informed that it will take 4-6 weeks for them to make the repair and send it back.

Really bummed out over this experience so far.  It will be hard for me to have confidence in the pistol and company after what has happened.  I?m trying to remain optimistic and hope that this was just a fluke.  I?ve been using this same ammo (165gr JHP 1050fps) for over 10 years and never had a problem in any of my other pistols (sig p229 stainless, glock 23 or even Kahr cw40).

Has anyone else experienced a similar failure? What about general support experiences with warranty repair?

[George16]

Wow! Sorry for what happened to your pistol. It?s the first time I heard of the right side safety or any side of the safety walking out. It?s held in place by the safety detent and detent spring on both side of the slide. Something happened to one or both of these detent and detent springs for the safety to come off like that.

What recoil spring are you using? You?re shooting about 173 power factor. I hope you were using the 16# recoil spring. I had seen destroyed plastic buffers on .40 caliber TSO?s like yours. I have a 9mm TSO and the plastic buffer is still good. I had to replace it after shooting major power factor with 10# recoil spring(I forgot to install the 16# spring) because the barrel was slamming hard into the slide destroying the plastic buffer. Once I installed the 16# spring, all is well.

Hopefully, everything will turn out well.

[quick66]

Thanks for the reply.  I was using the spring that was shipped with the pistol.  There were two additional guide rod springs in the kit that came with it.  Neither of the two extra springs had any markings that could be used to determine their weight.  They were the same height and the same wire diameter looking at them with the naked eye.  I have a digital micrometer I could check the wire diameter with.  The spring that shipped installed in the gun had a noticeably thicker wire diameter than the other two , so I?m fairly certain that is the heaviest spring in the kit.

Do you think I should be shooting different ammo in this pistol?  The slide is heavy and therefore  puts considerable load on the guide spring, however I would have thought cz would provide a spring with a rate capable of controlling the slide with the ammo I?m using.  The slide on my sig p229 stainless elite is also heavy, and I?ve ran a couple thousand rounds of the same ammo through it with zero issues.

[George16]

The Sigs are way oversprung compared to the CZs. The P229 I replaced my P320 X5 recoil spring with a 1911 10# with the tungsten guide rod I?m using it with.

Anyway, back to the TSO. The three recoil springs that comes with the TSO?s are 11, 13 and 16 pounds. The shortest is the 16 pounder while the longest is the 11. The 13# spring is almost the same length as the 11# spring.

I think you?re okay with your ammo. It?s just unfortunate that the safety walked out of the slide. I believe whatever happened to the safety detent and detent springs caused the barrel to shift inside the slide mangling the plastic buffer.

Have you strip open your pistol and check if the safety detent and detent springs are still in place? Anything unusual inside the other than the destroyed plastic buffer? Check the barrel and barrel peanut too.

When I tested/chrno?ed my major loads, I had it up to about 181 power factor. I had to use a Wolff 18# spring while testing that load.

By the way, did your TSO come with the black or clear plastic buffers? If black, those are weaker/flimsier compared to the clear ones.

[quick66]

I didn't strip it down any further than removing the slide, guide rod/spring and barrel.  Looking at the diagram in the book it appears only the left side safety has a detent plunger and spring.  The right side only has a detent plunger.  Something caused the safety assembly either become unsprung or out of alignment resulting in the right side safety coming off.  My pistol shipped with the clear plastic guide rod buffer.  I've attached a couple pictures of the buffer and missing safety.  It's interesting that you say that the black buffers aren't as good as the clear one that came in the pistol.  They seem to be made of a harder plastic, so I was thinking (without having experience) that they might be more durable than the softer clear one.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/TEbLuKLgPCjqYFjtA3SQcMvuOmsxtdGO4kbVb2XRxg8
https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/hsG165p2W3qEyqKjd1MUD2Kma1AGNoOrzUTPwFsEQtt

[George16]

Looking at the picture of the plastic buffer, that?s a typical sign of a too light of a recoil spring or too high of a power factor load/ammo or combination of both. That?s exactly what happened on mine during my load development when I forgot to remove the 10# spring in my TSO.

If thesafety detent spring is missing, I bet it wasn?t installed from the factory from the getgo. There?s no way for the safety to come off like that because the spring pressure pushes the detent (it has a U shape end) and locks into the shaft of the safety.

Since you have the new TSO, your gun uses the shadow 2 extended safety. It has also the shadow 2 mag release pad and comes with an aluminum trigger instead of the polymer.

Can you strip it and take a look inside the frame if the safety detent and detent spring is still in place? I doubt they are but it?ll rule out all the guesswork as to what happened.

[muncie21]

Something is definitely odd with that pistol. As others mentioned a properly installed safety cannot slip off unless the detents inside the frame were not installed or installed properly.

As for the recoil spring, I run an 11# one my .40 TSO that I shoot in USPSA matches.  PF on my ammo is ~172-175, I chrono it routinely to ensure I'm not shooting minor loads.  Close to 20K rounds without the use of any buffer and no damage to the frame or locking lug on the barrel.  I've broken a slide lock and a slide lock pin, however I don't consider this to be abnormal, considering the rounds and what I use the pistol for. 

[quick66]

Can you strip it and take a look inside the frame if the safety detent and detent spring is still in place? I doubt they are but it?ll rule out all the guesswork as to what happened.

I already sent the pistol back to CZ-USA for repairs.  What I was trying to say earlier is that according to the diagram that was included in the manual that shipped with my gun the right side safety doesn't have a plunger spring by design.  I'm not sure if the left side plunger spring was still in the firearm.

[quick66]

Something is definitely odd with that pistol. As others mentioned a properly installed safety cannot slip off unless the detents inside the frame were not installed or installed properly.

As for the recoil spring, I run an 11# one my .40 TSO that I shoot in USPSA matches.  PF on my ammo is ~172-175, I chrono it routinely to ensure I'm not shooting minor loads.  Close to 20K rounds without the use of any buffer and no damage to the frame or locking lug on the barrel.  I've broken a slide lock and a slide lock pin, however I don't consider this to be abnormal, considering the rounds and what I use the pistol for.

Interesting that an 11# spring will control the action one your pistol shooting ammo that has a PF very similar to what I'm using.  I agree there is something wrong with this pistol.  I just hope the factory can get it sorted out so I can move on and be a happy CZ customer.

[tdogg]

I'm a little perplexed as I thought that the right side safety had to be rotated/turned quite a bit to be released from the detent.  Nevermind the close tolerance fit to the left side safety.  I bet the detent was missing from the factory.  There isn't a spring on the right side but it is held in place by the ejector cage, so it can't fall out unless the cage is removed.

There are two thickness buffers included with the pistol.  The thin buffer is what comes in the pistol.  They fall apart quickly.  The thicker buffer holds up longer but will still wear out eventually.  I would keep the 16lb recoil spring, I run 170 PF and it is the best weight .  I ran a 18lb for a bit and the muzzle dipped upon returning to battery more so I switched back to the 16lb.

The TSO is capable of running that ammo all day.

As to your failure, it sounds like the trigger overtravel screw was set a little too tight.  Your going to want to make sure it isn't set so tight as to cause sear/hammer hook interference. 

https://czcustom.com/knowledge-base/general/how-do-i-adjust-the-over-travel-screw-on-cz-pistols.html

It could also be the trigger pretravel screw and the trigger wasn't resetting.  Again if it is too tight as the pistol gets dirty it might cause the malfunction.  Make sure it is adjusted to reset then back off 1/8 to 1/4 turn to provide extra clearance.

CZUSA should be able to get it sorted quickly and easily.

Cheers,
Toby

[quick66]

Thanks for the detailed reply, tdogg.  I didn't check or make any adjustments to the trigger or anything else.  This is the first time that I've had an adjustable trigger in a pistol (use Giessler in some of my rifles).  I assumed that everything would have been checked and adjusted properly by the factory.  I did take the pistol apart and clean/lube it thoroughly before the first use.  The pistol shot beautifully for the first ~170 or so rounds.  I will check the trigger function and adjustment when I receive it back from CZ.

[quick66]

Just wanted to provide an update.  I received a call from CZ yesterday to give me an update on my pistol repair.  They took it apart and installed a new right side safety and then test fired the pistol.  The safety came out again.  It turns out that the frame had a hairline crack in it.  The rep I spoke with seemed pretty surprised this happened, and he indicted that he only knew of one other time this has occurred. 

We talked about the ammo I was using, and he said that the ammo I was shooting should be fine.  He did recommend that I try and avoid shooting +P or +P+ ammo as this pistol is designed as a target/competition gun and using that ammo wasn't really what the pistol was designed for.  They are going to send me a new pistol which I should have by the end of the week.  I have to say I'm really impressed with the customer service here.  The person I spoke with was very knowledgeable and friendly.  I've learned that in life things break despite solid design and/or manufacturing.  It's disappointing when something like this happens.  However, what really matters is how a company stands behind their products and how they treat their customers.  Let me assure you that CZ is top notch in both regards!

P.S.  I forgot to mention.  The person I spoke with also indicated that they would be sending the new pistol out with one of the thicker black buffers.  He also recommended using ammo that is made for match shooting, so I will look into that as well.

[tdogg]

I'm not sure how a crack in the frame would cause this type of malfunction?  It might just be an "easy" customer service response.  Regardless, good on CZ for making it right.

I wouldn't worry about your ammo choice, its power is right in line with what any Limited Major shooter uses.  Hopefully your not shooting premium self defense JHP bullets and are shooting target JHP bullets but that is neither here nor there in the discussion.

Hopefully your new pistol shoots as good or better than the original one.

Cheers,
Toby

[George16]

Like tdogg said, that?s a lame excuse from CZ but I?m really glad everything turned out well. You can  enjoy shooting it again once it arrives.

As for the +p ammo, that?s just total misinformation. Your TSO can take +p and major loads. I know my TSO can and I had been shooting it with my reloads.

[quick66]

Well, I spoke too soon.  Got a call back from CZ this morning and they said that the TSO that they were going to send me had already been allocated.  I'm now on a waiting list to get a replacement.  I was really hoping to have a pistol back to shoot with over the Christmas break.  That's the breaks I guess...