The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: DOC 1500 on October 08, 2017, 09:10:41 AM
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For those of you that carry a second magazine for CCW, do you load it with your Defense Ammo or FMJ.
I carry a PO 9 9mm which is 19 +1 of Fed HST 147gr HP ..Mag #2 is FMJ..
Please share your thoughts.
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All of mine are defensive rounds if I am carrying them.
Why is the second mag not loaded with the same defensive rounds?
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124gr HSTs in both.
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All of mine are defensive rounds if I am carrying them.
Why is the second mag not loaded with the same defensive rounds?
I'm just thinking what if, the bad guy is behind a wall, maybe in my house. FMJ would penetrate better. I guess I'm just thinking better penetration if I need it.
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All of mine are defensive rounds if I am carrying them.
Why is the second mag not loaded with the same defensive rounds?
I'm just thinking what if, the bad guy is behind a wall, maybe in my house. FMJ would penetrate better. I guess I'm just thinking better penetration if I need it.
That?s why I switched to the Underwood Extreme Defender(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171008/048b15e2dc05f3576ebb48b05dcb986b.jpg), good terminal ballistics with ability to d feat barriers
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124 HST in gun and extra mags.
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All of mine are defensive rounds if I am carrying them.
Why is the second mag not loaded with the same defensive rounds?
I'm just thinking what if, the bad guy is behind a wall, maybe in my house. FMJ would penetrate better. I guess I'm just thinking better penetration if I need it.
I keep incendiary rounds in my second mag, just in case some Russian gangsters kill my puppy. Just kidding, HST 124's all the way. Intentionally shooting through walls is better left to action heroes.
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I keep the same load in a spare mag as in the primary. I try to stick with bonded bullets to give better barrier performance if needed. I figure as a CCW user barrier penetration is lower on my priority list.
Trying to move to all Federal HST but trying to decide on 124 or 147. Need to evaluate short barrel performance, since my Px4 Compact has such an abreviated barrel length for a mid size pistol.
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124 gr HST +P in all the mags
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I keep the same load in a spare mag as in the primary. I try to stick with bonded bullets to give better barrier performance if needed. I figure as a CCW user barrier penetration is lower on my priority list.
Trying to move to all Federal HST but trying to decide on 124 or 147. Need to evaluate short barrel performance, since my Px4 Compact has such an abreviated barrel length for a mid size pistol.
try you tube "ammo quest" for ballistics testing I believe you will find 124 and 147 hst are near identical.
Here u go...
https://youtu.be/-lGqdMdbir0
https://youtu.be/K3VfWkWMzOI
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This discussion can go in many directions, but plain fact is most defensive ammunition most likely will suffer from cavity clog going through drywall and insulation and act like an fmj anyway. I really don?t consider interior Home walls when thinking about barrier performance, now auto glass and car doors that?s where different manufacturers barrier technologies come in to play
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I guess I haven't given much thought to barrier performance - because I mainly think of handgun defensive situations as being face to face at 20'. While I DO practice shooting at 100 yards with a handgun - I know I'd have a very difficult time convincing a judge or jury that I felt threatened by a guy with a knife at that range....
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90% of my practice is 20-25 feet .
3 shots , 2 center mass 1 head drawn from the holster each time.
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Same rounds in both mags.
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Excellent choice for mag number 1, OP!
Sometimes I don't carry a spare either. However I usually know when I'm going target shooting, so I bring my preloaded 6 mag carrier with FMJ on those days! ;D
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On my hip they have the standard sized magazine for that pistol inserted in the mag. well. Longer magazines are harder to hide, in my experience.
The back up is a "bigger" magazine. An 18 rounder for the CZ 75 Compact and 17 rounder for the P07.
The rounds in the back up magazine are the same as the ones in the pistol on my hip.
Consistency is good.
The only time I ever carried different ammo was when I was using my S&W M29. In the gun was 6 rounds of the Remington 240 grain LSWC "medium" loads (1100 FPS isn't .44 magnum speed but it's still quite a bit for a bullet that size). Three of the HKS speed loaders had the same ammo and one had Remington 240 grain soft points that were real .44 magnum loads. Reason for that was cars/trucks. While the LSWC medium load would go through a door/seat I figured I'd like to have a few rounds that would go through both sides of the car and someone hiding on the other side of it. If we were told prior to the start of the shift that we might get called for back up/help on a road block within our area, I'd stop by the apartment and grab my M1A and four 20 rounds magazines of GI FMJ 7.62X51. Bank robbers people who shot other cops can run, but they can't hide.
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I carry FMJ in 2nd mag.
Can never predict what situations you may encounter.
My thoughs are most shooting are short.
If it was a longer fight then more likely cover is involved.
(Something goes down in a parking lot. Can't escape and cars are used for cover. )
Carring a compact 9mm some FMJ would come in handy.
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I use Hornady Critical Duty (not Critical Defense), kind of a "hybrid" (my term not Hornady's) type round......its a JHP, but also has some FMJ penetration characteristics
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All of mine are defensive rounds if I am carrying them.
Why is the second mag not loaded with the same defensive rounds?
I'm just thinking what if, the bad guy is behind a wall, maybe in my house. FMJ would penetrate better. I guess I'm just thinking better penetration if I need it.
I keep incendiary rounds in my second mag, just in case some Russian gangsters kill my puppy. Just kidding, HST 124's all the way. Intentionally shooting through walls is better left to action heroes.
Earl, I'm dyin over that line!! LMAO
I guess I find the question odd as any weapon I carry, any extra mags that I carry that go in it all have the same defense rounds in it. My choice is Hornady Critical Duty.
I wouldn't want to shoot through walls unless there was no option left.
Sort of unusual I suppose but I always carry 4-5 mags with me for any weapon I have, so I'd get through the wall to bad guy eventually.
My night stand table is an FN 5.7 with a drawer full of mags, so I suppose I could get those through walls, but as Earl said that's better left to the John Wick types.
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I use Hornady Critical Duty (not Critical Defense), kind of a "hybrid" (my term not Hornady's) type round......its a JHP, but also has some FMJ penetration characteristics
Guardian, that John Wayne quote is the best!!!!
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90% of my practice is 20-25 feet .
3 shots , 2 center mass 1 head drawn from the holster each time.
Doc,
A dear LEO friend told me this is quite possibly the most important drill to be proficient at.
2 shot quick at center mass, not really aiming just pushing out and letting go. The goal being tight two shot group dead center.
Then a millisecond to aim and one in the nasal cavity.
At the end of every range day I pull out my EDC and shoot that drill 10 times.
Another he said that real proficiency was needed at was a 10-15 yard drill.
Full mag, dumped as quick as you can and all in center mass group 8-10".
Critical Duty are the rounds I have in everything.
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Same loads in both mags, Speer Gold Dots.
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90% of my practice is 20-25 feet .
3 shots , 2 center mass 1 head drawn from the holster each time.
Doc,
A dear LEO friend told me this is quite possibly the most important drill to be proficient at.
2 shot quick at center mass, not really aiming just pushing out and letting go. The goal being tight two shot group dead center.
Then a millisecond to aim and one in the nasal cavity.
At the end of every range day I pull out my EDC and shoot that drill 10 times.
Another he said that real proficiency was needed at was a 10-15 yard drill.
Full mag, dumped as quick as you can and all in center mass group 8-10".
Critical Duty are the rounds I have in everything.
I did that "quick as you can through the whole mag, dump it and then another full mag as quick as you can" after getting acquainted with my new CZ.... and the RO was very upset with me. Luckily it was only at 10 yds. When I rolled the target back and every round landed in the 9 or 10 ring he was less upset. He asked that I simply warn him before the drill in the future. (Granted, they don't know who can shot or who can't until you've been there awhile, I don't blame him.) They aren't as upset when they understand you are under control. I was pretty impressed at how little my SP-01 Tac had for barrel flip. Of course, it WAS with pew-pew practice ammo and NOT with +P 124 Defensive Ammo.
I'll carry the heavy beast in the winter time. LOL
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Same Critical Duty or XTP rounds in all my defensive mags. There are few rounds that won't penetrate the thin drywall in a house and that's not really a concern for me. There are other family members in my home and I would never fire at a target I can't see.
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Same Speer or Hornady 124 gr JHPs in both or all three mags.
My sheet rock dust is at a minimum irritating to the eyes and the fmj penetration is irritating to my neighbors..
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Doc,
...2 shot quick at center mass, not really aiming just pushing out and letting go. The goal being tight two shot group dead center.....
great tip.......one to really follow. Setting up and aiming is ideal, but probably not realistic in many cases......
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Same Speer or Hornady 124 gr JHPs in both or all three mags.
My sheet rock dust is at a minimum irritating to the eyes and the fmj penetration is irritating to my neighbors..
That would be an absolute nightmare for everyone involved.
Sounds like a job for a shotgun home defense weapon.
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Same Critical Duty or XTP rounds in all my defensive mags. There are few rounds that won't penetrate the thin drywall in a house and that's not really a concern for me. There are other family members in my home and I would never fire at a target I can't see.
I don't know about shooting at a Target you can't see but if you know there's no family members Behind the Walls behind the bad guy you got to do what you got to do. That's just common sense.
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I'm rather on the thin side so size is important and I always carry HST 124s and extra 7 round mag.
Always same defensive ammo for me.
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90% of my practice is 20-25 feet .
3 shots , 2 center mass 1 head drawn from the holster each time.
Doc,
A dear LEO friend told me this is quite possibly the most important drill to be proficient at.
2 shot quick at center mass, not really aiming just pushing out and letting go. The goal being tight two shot group dead center.
Then a millisecond to aim and one in the nasal cavity.
At the end of every range day I pull out my EDC and shoot that drill 10 times.
Another he said that real proficiency was needed at was a 10-15 yard drill.
Full mag, dumped as quick as you can and all in center mass group 8-10".
Critical Duty are the rounds I have in everything.
I did that "quick as you can through the whole mag, dump it and then another full mag as quick as you can" after getting acquainted with my new CZ.... and the RO was very upset with me. Luckily it was only at 10 yds. When I rolled the target back and every round landed in the 9 or 10 ring he was less upset. He asked that I simply warn him before the drill in the future. (Granted, they don't know who can shot or who can't until you've been there awhile, I don't blame him.) They aren't as upset when they understand you are under control. I was pretty impressed at how little my SP-01 Tac had for barrel flip. Of course, it WAS with pew-pew practice ammo and NOT with +P 124 Defensive Ammo.
I'll carry the heavy beast in the winter time. LOL
That's a nice group. And yes, they hear rapid fire and think you're a wanksta until they know you're actually someone trying to run proficiency drills!!!
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Doc,
...2 shot quick at center mass, not really aiming just pushing out and letting go. The goal being tight two shot group dead center.....
great tip.......one to really follow. Setting up and aiming is ideal, but probably not realistic in many cases......
Guardian, I agree it would be nice to always aim, and I also do the three shot drill slower, all aimed but as we all know, if the SHTF you ain't got that extra half second.
So I just pull the weapon, full push out locking my elbows and look at the center mass knowing from memory or hoping at least that those two will go where I'm looking.
I try for a 3-5" group.
Then for good measure in case the zombie is still moving forward I raise, sight and drop one in the nose!!
I try to do that each range trip.
It's one of three drills that might really apply to a real life scenario.
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Same Speer or Hornady 124 gr JHPs in both or all three mags.
My sheet rock dust is at a minimum irritating to the eyes and the fmj penetration is irritating to my neighbors..
Hysterical!!!!
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While I DO practice shooting at 100 yards with a handgun - I know I'd have a very difficult time convincing a judge or jury that I felt threatened by a guy with a knife at that range....
Very sadly, Las Vegas proved that is no longer true, and we may end up taking longer shots with side arms in a terrorist attack. No, I could not have made a 400 yard shot into that window with my Phantom, but I do know I can hit a man sized target at 50 yards with little difficulty.
Also, all carry ammo is 135gr FlexTip Hornandy Critical Duty.
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I hope to never be in the wrong place at the wrong time....
But if it does ever happen - I hope my hundreds of thousands of rounds fired and hours of practice and training is of some use at that point.
I'll continue to hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
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Amen.
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Any good practice makes for good muscle memory that's what we end up relying on.
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I hope to never be in the wrong place at the wrong time....
But if it does ever happen - I hope my hundreds of thousands of rounds fired and hours of practice and training is of some use at that point.
I'll continue to hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
Agreed.
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......I just pull the weapon, full push out locking my elbows and look at the center mass knowing from memory or hoping at least that those two will go where I'm looking.
I try for a 3-5" group.
Ditto..... 8)
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Try this for a test.
Put a man size waist up silhouette about 6-8 feet in front of your position.
Use someone to call it or a shot timer on delay: On signal Draw your handgun as fast you can draw safely then then as fast as you possibly can, fire two to the body and one to the head. " Look ONLY at the chest" NOT the pistol OR the hits. "Look" ONLY at the head NOT the pistol. Don't try for groups, Don't try for score or anything but shooting speed.
Do this as fast as you can pull the trigger . = very important part of the test.
Do this with the pistol you shoot the most.
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All of mine are defensive rounds if I am carrying them.
Why is the second mag not loaded with the same defensive rounds?
I'm just thinking what if, the bad guy is behind a wall, maybe in my house. FMJ would penetrate better. I guess I'm just thinking better penetration if I need it.
That?s why I switched to the Underwood Extreme Defender(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171008/048b15e2dc05f3576ebb48b05dcb986b.jpg), good terminal ballistics with ability to d feat barriers
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I'm off to do my research on these. Thanks!
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No problem, expensive but very very nasty
Good info here and comparison to my previous choice the HST
https://youtu.be/ClJcJ8LQFbQ
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Seeing as my EDC is a 357 revolver, I carry 1 or 2 speed strips with Buffalo Bore's 38 Special 158gr LSCWHP +P ammo. I've shot several trapped hogs with this ammo, deep penetration and usually expands to nearly double it's diameter.
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RE Underwood: I'll be sticking with my standard pressure 147gr HST! Would have been nice if he could have followed up the actual pig shoulder with the heavy slowpoke to compare with the wonderwood round. Federal HST, 147gr does a heck of job on a shoulder roast, bone and all!
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RE Underwood: I'll be sticking with my standard pressure 147gr HST! Would have been nice if he could have followed up the actual pig shoulder with the heavy slowpoke to compare with the wonderwood round. Federal HST, 147gr does a heck of job on a shoulder roast, bone and all!
Can?t go wrong with any HST, I carried them for years religiously. I just feel more comfortable with not having to depend on a hollow point expanding. At the end of the day shot placement will determine the day, but that doesent mean I won?t take any advantage I can get.
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HMM???
now I ask myself why would I carry anything other than what I thought was the best self defense ammo?
the one that runs flawlessly in my weapon, the one that appears to have the best ballistics, the one thats generally the most accurate at self defense range (out to say 15-18 yards).
I personally don't see why I would do anything different regardless of how many magazines that I carry.
I am a civilian not a law enforcement person so I am not trying to stop a car, truck, shoot through a door etc, I can run and hide in such cases and let the police deal with that issue.
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Same ammo as the first one.
GS
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Same in both!
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All defensive rounds when not in the woods.
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All of mine are defensive rounds if I am carrying them.
Why is the second mag not loaded with the same defensive rounds?
I agree with this sentiment and second the question.
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All of mine are defensive rounds if I am carrying them.
Why is the second mag not loaded with the same defensive rounds?
I'm just thinking what if, the bad guy is behind a wall, maybe in my house. FMJ would penetrate better. I guess I'm just thinking better penetration if I need it.
If the hypothetical bad guy is hiding behind a wall, that's your queue to get the hell outta dodge. Book it to a neighbors or something, and wait for law enforcement. Unless you're a cop you shouldn't try to have a sustained gun battle. The goal is to defend yourself until you and, if applicable your family, can get to safety.
Well, that's just my two cents anyway. But to each their own.
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124 HST in gun and extra mags.
Same here, 124gr HST
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Definitely defensive rounds. I run 147 gr. HST loads.