The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Center fire Rifles => Topic started by: The Guardian on November 13, 2017, 08:31:10 PM
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which would you choose and why......need some opinions.....thanks! :)
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What will it be used for?
If I was going to plink/varmint hunt I'd choose .223.
If I was going to plink/deer or wild boar hunt, I'd choose the 7.62X39.
.223 ammo is available just about everywhere.
7.62X39 is harder to find in many localities, but can be ordered in bulk. Mostly the steel cased stuff loaded in Russia/East Europe. I use that ammo in my SIG 556R and is works just fine in that semi-auto rifle. No idea how it would work in a precision made CZ rifle.
Do you reload? If so, .223 components are much easier to find as well.
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I'd choose the 7.62X39 IF I had a place to shoot it besides a rifle target range. The only place near me that has tactical bays only allows rifles up to 223/5.56 and recently added 300 BLK. I have other rifled in 223/5.56 so when I decided on a CZ 527, I ordered a 300 BLK which came in today.
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I can shoot what I want on my small ranch. I like the idea of a 7.62X39mm bolt action rifle as a ranch rifle and deer hunting to carry in my Polaris 500 utility vehicle side by side.
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I bought the 7.62x39mm version because I cast and reload for that cartridge, so keeping it fed it quite easy. ;) I wouldn't mind having a .223/5.56mm version to play with to, as I know also reload that round. ;)
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I have and use both. My 7.62x39 is my walking around hog and other large feral animal destroying tool. My .223 is the walking around small to mid-size varmint rifle. If I could only have one, I'd keep the 7.63x39, mostly because of its flexibility with hand loads. I've shot hogs up to 300 pounds with the .223 and almost always need a second or third shot. I rarely need a second shot with the 7.62x39. If I were going to mostly target shoot or target animals under 120 pounds I probably stick with the .223.
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What will it be used for?
Ah yes.......the question of all questions ;D Answer.....pretty much everything and anything. I have AR's (223/5.56) but really want something a bit more "traditional" that could handle most animal needs, and some range time, hence the question. A 223 seems small for some things and a 308 seems a bit much for some things......the 7.62x39 seems nestled in between the two but able to handle pretty much what either can......maybe not ideally, but practically so. I wouldn't mind both and that may happen in the future but just wanted some opinions to help narrow it down a bit as to which may be the most universally useful.
Appreciate all the inputs......more always welcome :)
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What about 6.5 Grendel?
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What about 6.5 Grendel?
Great round, great suggestion........had a 6.5 Creedmoor, though a long action round vs the Grendel being short action, that entire "family" of rounds is excellent. Wanted something not quite so "designer" so was partial to the 223 or 7.62x39 for their lower cost and easier availability, at least where I am.
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Plus, I really like the Carbine setup with the iron sights......those only come 223 or 7.62 ::)
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I figured the Grendel ammo from Wolf compared favorably to 7.62x39. Not a factor of course since you want a different configuration than CZ has available. Between the two available, I'd have to go with 7.62x39.
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I would spend your money and buy the 7.62 Carbine. You own ARs so why not branch out a bit. I own a lefty 223 American and 223 Lux but if the 7.62 came out in a lefty carbine I would already own one. I would add a NECG peep sight. If a scope was required a QD mount would allow access to the barrel sight. I'm just getting comfortable with my Lux and hoping my vision will allow the steady accurate use of iron sights.
My only concern would be ammo availability. My rifles see handloads or brass case commercial only. I might pound a SKS with steel core bullets and steel cases but not my CZs. Besides my indoor range bans steel core ammo.
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What would be wrong with steel cased ammo in a bolt action rifle? Not a lot of wear/tear compared to a semi/full auto rifle.
For sighting it in, how many rounds will it take? Three or four 3 shot groups? To find out where it hits at 200/300 yds.? A couple of 3 shot groups at each distance.
Hunting? On a good day of groundhog hunting I've shot up to 4 of the little suckers. I guess some people live in areas were you don't have to "hunt" them though. Just drive around and shoot them from the truck/ATV. But for the 7.62X39 it'll be bigger stuff, mostly. How many deer/hogs a day?
That steel cased ammo can shoot some pretty good groups in the right rifle.
I might, I say might, because I've seen some of the Silver Bear soft points shoot scary good groups out of a cheap old AK, and it might do very well in a bolt action rifle, too, even hunt with the steel cased ammo with the right bullets. That way I wouldn't worry about losing my brass either. I lost two pieces of .308 brass when deer hunting at home. I can take you right to those two spots. For some reason it really got my goat to lose those two pieces of brass, even though both brought down nice bucks.
Good luck, with which ever one you buy. I saw a whole table of CZ rifles at the gun show the other day. Not a couple, a whole table of nothing but CZ rifles. I only looked at them from a "man, those are pretty (wood/checkering/bluing) standpoint and didn't even look to see what models or calibers they were. They were just really pretty rifles.
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I mostly shoot handloads, but Hornady's steel cased SST ammo is some excellent stuff and very effective on medium size game. Silver Bear is good accuracy wise, but the bullets are inconsistent on hogs, haven't tried them on deer. They seem to blow up instead of penetrate about 1/3 of the time. PPU's 123gr soft point is the same way, the older 123gr round nose is great on deer and hogs.
I've shot as many as 15 hogs over the course of a weekend but rarely more than two before I had to go looking again.
Most deer in a day with the 7.62x39 was 3 Axis deer in about an hour. All were 1 shot kills from 40 to 80 yards.
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What would be wrong with steel cased ammo in a bolt action rifle? Not a lot of wear/tear compared to a semi/full auto rifle.
For sighting it in, how many rounds will it take? Three or four 3 shot groups? To find out where it hits at 200/300 yds.? A couple of 3 shot groups at each distance.
Hunting? On a good day of groundhog hunting I've shot up to 4 of the little suckers. I guess some people live in areas were you don't have to "hunt" them though. Just drive around and shoot them from the truck/ATV. But for the 7.62X39 it'll be bigger stuff, mostly. How many deer/hogs a day?
That steel cased ammo can shoot some pretty good groups in the right rifle.
I might, I say might, because I've seen some of the Silver Bear soft points shoot scary good groups out of a cheap old AK, and it might do very well in a bolt action rifle, too, even hunt with the steel cased ammo with the right bullets. That way I wouldn't worry about losing my brass either. I lost two pieces of .308 brass when deer hunting at home. I can take you right to those two spots. For some reason it really got my goat to lose those two pieces of brass, even though both brought down nice bucks.
Good luck, with which ever one you buy. I saw a whole table of CZ rifles at the gun show the other day. Not a couple, a whole table of nothing but CZ rifles. I only looked at them from a "man, those are pretty (wood/checkering/bluing) standpoint and didn't even look to see what models or calibers they were. They were just really pretty rifles.
Some reasearch I?ve done actually said the 527 performed better with the steel case ammo....time will tell......ended up getting the 527 Carbine in 7.62x39, haven?t had a chance to get to the range yet >:(
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I mostly shoot handloads, but Hornady's steel cased SST ammo is some excellent stuff and very effective on medium size game. Silver Bear is good accuracy wise, but the bullets are inconsistent on hogs, haven't tried them on deer. They seem to blow up instead of penetrate about 1/3 of the time. PPU's 123gr soft point is the same way, the older 123gr round nose is great on deer and hogs.
I've shot as many as 15 hogs over the course of a weekend but rarely more than two before I had to go looking again.
Most deer in a day with the 7.62x39 was 3 Axis deer in about an hour. All were 1 shot kills from 40 to 80 yards.
Great info.....thanks for sharing your experiences!
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Please give us a range report when you have time. Great choice and a nice medium range and medium game cartridge. Folks who shoot out of good shooting semi-autos and most bolts rave about the accuracy.
Hope I didn't anger anyone regarding my post about steel case and core ammo. I had no idea some of it is much higher quality than the tired comm bloc stuff. Hornady SST is no joke and in a steel Hornady case, hopefully a lot cheaper.
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Please give us a range report when you have time. Great choice and a nice medium range and medium game cartridge. Folks who shoot out of good shooting semi-autos and most bolts rave about the accuracy.
Hope I didn't anger anyone regarding my post about steel case and core ammo. I had no idea some of it is much higher quality than the tired comm bloc stuff. Hornady SST is no joke and in a steel Hornady case, hopefully a lot cheaper.
Will do on the range report.........as far as angering anyone, folks here are pretty open to opinions, experiences, suggestions........no harm done ;)
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So glad this topic popped up. My intention is to get a 527, but I'm not sure what variant. I know I want iron sights, so it's either the Lux or Carbine. I would use mine exclusively for target shooting, so by reading on here, the .223 would be the better choice?
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So glad this topic popped up. My intention is to get a 527, but I'm not sure what variant. I know I want iron sights, so it's either the Lux or Carbine. I would use mine exclusively for target shooting, so by reading on here, the .223 would be the better choice?
My thought originally was along those same lines, but I already had some .223/5.56 options and really wanted something different that wasn?t expensive to shoot and that wasn?t a recoil beast and that was capable if need be to take down something that a .223 wouldn?t...so I went with the 7.62x39mm.....just my thought process ;)
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Makes sense to me. I don't hunt or extinguish varmints, so mine would be 100% target use. And with so many .223 options, like you, I wanted something that used inexpensive ammo. If I was going to hunt with it, I would definitely go with the 7.62x39 also. I've really started looking at the 527 Lux in .223 recently. Just need to find one for a good price......
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I skipped both of those in the CZ and went with a 6.5 Grendel, after having built a few in AR platform. I also have AR's in 5.56 and a .223 Remington 700 varmint special, not exactly a walking around gun, but fun.
Back when 6.5 Grendel brass was hard to find and very expensive, I picked up a large supply of IMI 7.62x39 brass and resized to Grendel for fireforming. I have not tried any in my CZ yet, but the loads to fireform function through my AR's just fine, cycling the action, chambering the next round, ect. Nowhere near the velocity, or the accuracy of a properly formed case, shooting very low in comparison, but still fun to plink with, using a lot of "Kentucky windeage".
My idea of ideal would be one of the little 527 FS carbines in 6.5 Grendel
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I was told by a CZ gunsmith that converting the 527 to 6.5 Grendel is easy and popular, but not popular enough to offer it in that chambering. Dagnabbit.
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I was told by a CZ gunsmith that converting the 527 to 6.5 Grendel is easy and popular, but not popular enough to offer it in that chambering. Dagnabbit.
CZ offers the 527 in 6.5 Grendel.
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I was told by a CZ gunsmith that converting the 527 to 6.5 Grendel is easy and popular, but not popular enough to offer it in that chambering. Dagnabbit.
CZ offers the 527 in 6.5 Grendel.
Yup... http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-527-american/
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I was told by a CZ gunsmith that converting the 527 to 6.5 Grendel is easy and popular, but not popular enough to offer it in that chambering. Dagnabbit.
CZ offers two configuration, classic American walnut stock with a slender 24" barrel, the other a "distressed" birch or beech stock, same barrel.
I'm hoping for a shorter barrel, full stock version with open sights, more a classic European stalking rifle type.
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I was told by a CZ gunsmith that converting the 527 to 6.5 Grendel is easy and popular, but not popular enough to offer it in that chambering. Dagnabbit.
CZ offers two configuration, classic American walnut stock with a slender 24" barrel, the other a "distressed" birch or beech stock, same barrel.
I'm hoping for a shorter barrel, full stock version with open sights, more a classic European stalking rifle type.
My thoughts exactly...... ^^^^^^^
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I should have been more clear - the 527M - I love iron sights.
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I don't own any CZ rifles, but I've seen several mentions here of stores/vendors in Europe that sell CZ pistol parts/accessories.
Would it be worth doing some google searches to see if a larger variety of stocks, slings, barrels, sights, etc. are available for CZ rifles from European sources?
If, I was going to use a CZ for hunting (walking through the woods for deer/hog sized game) I think I'd want something with a rust free finish and a synthetic stock. Not sure I'd be willing to hunt in the pouring down rain or blowing snow like I did 30/40 years ago, but I might and a durable set up would be important to me. I used to deer hunt with my M1A when I lived in WV. Spent a few afternoons sitting out there dusting the snow off the scope/rifle waiting on a buck to walk down a path, or two.
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I never have nor plan on hunting in blowing rain, plus living in the deep south, grew up in Louisiana, spent some time in the USAF over in Georgia along with a couple of years overseas in Turkey, then some time in Florida before setteling in E. Texas, never had much snow and never hunted in it.
As humid as it is in this part of the country I have never had any problems with rust or stocks warping. I simply run a slightly oily rag over the metal, and wipe my stock down with a dry rag, and occasionally wax them. At 72 years old I know how to take care of a gun.
I have one rifle, a custom Ruger 10 22 I built up in stainless, with a nice Fajan walnut stock. I have read all the pros on synthetic stocks and cannot argue with them, and have several AR 15 types with of course synthetic stocks, but too me a synthetic stock lacks soul. I will continue on into old age preferring and sticking with my blued steel and walnut.
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I have .223/5.56 because I have no need for a 7.62 Russian. I don't really understand why it is so popular but, as it clearly is, who am I to question.
223 ammo is cheap, very accurate and deadly up to deer size critters (especially if you get a rifle that can shoot the heavier bullets). Plenty for hogs. It gets my vote.
7.62 Russian is an oddball calibre in Aussieland. Doubt the local General Store would stock it.
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I have .223/5.56 because I have no need for a 7.62 Russian. I don't really understand why it is so popular but, as it clearly is, who am I to question.
223 ammo is cheap, very accurate and deadly up to deer size critters (especially if you get a rifle that can shoot the heavier bullets). Plenty for hogs. It gets my vote.
7.62 Russian is an oddball calibre in Aussieland. Doubt the local General Store would stock it.
The thread title was to compare the 7.62x39 to the .223/5.56. 7.62 Russian is an older 19th century cartridge for the Mosin Nagant rifles I think it was introduced in the early 1890's. The 7.62x39 was introduced much later in 1943. and is a much less powerful cartridge than the older rimmed 7.62 Russian.
I'm like you and have no need for the cartridge, if I want something of that power level I will get out my old 30-30.
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It's probably much easier to get ammo for in Europe, hence the choice of that caliber when building the rifles at the factory.
Some people like a bolt action rifle and with this caliber you can have a "short" action vs. a longer action so you lose a little in weight and length of rifle to thread through the brush if hunting in the woods.
While I don't need one in a bolt action, I did by a SIG 556R a few years ago before I realized SIG can't figure out today what they'll be making next year and then won't support what they've stopped making. My one and only SIG. But it would make a nice (though somewhat heavy) short range deer rifle for the woods.
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Late to reply, but you can't go wrong with either choice. I have a 527 in 7.62x39 and shoot mostly Wolf steel case ammo, which I buy in bulk. I chose the 527 because it was the ONLY bolt action rifle that would shoot the same Russian caliber as my AK. For 223/556, I have another brand bolt action rifle. I like shooting the 7.62x39 with 527 because the ammo is cheap, the gun/ammo combo is very accurate, and what's more, it lets me feel the power of shooting a semi-big caliber WITHOUT the bad recoil. In addition to shooting with iron sights, I use a small 2-7x Redfield scope. The ONLY con is the cost of mags. I bought 3 extra (total of 4) so I can load all the rounds from the 20 round ammo box.
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The CZ 527 in 7.62 X 39 is built for the steel case ammo:
From the product description: (http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-527-carbine-223-rem/)
Built to CIP specifications, our 7.62?39 chambers are ideal for shooting steel-cased surplus ammo. Designed to shoot .311 bullets, some American brass ammo may not perform as well as the imported steel-cased variety because of SAAMI brass dimensions and varying bullet diameters.
These are 5-rounds at 50 yards using a Leupold VX-2 2-7x33mm scope from rest, same ammo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNR35yqj/CZ-527-2014-04-092.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtTXdzBQ/Shots-Fired.jpg)
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Well, finally shot the 527 in 7.62x39 today, I?m not one to just say it was great if in fact it wasn?t.....but I really enjoyed the Carbine set up with open sights and the ?set trigger? option, it was very accurate out to 100yds, with just the open sights, which is what I prefer in the Carbine configuration. Agree completely with what ?cz75BDShooter? contributed. Would really consider the same setup in 5.56x45 after shooting this one :)
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I've always heard the excuse about the lack of accuracy for many AK's being the fault of the ammo. In my SIG 556R the Wolf ammo shoots better than any of the other I've tried.
My brother's AK, however, seems to like Tula for plinking, over Wolf. It also shoot the Silver Bear soft points very well. Better than anything else.
My rifle doesn't like Tula (groups open up) and neither of our rifles do well with that Red Army stuff, so we no longer buy that brand.
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Last time I bought surplus/steel case ammo, it cost me $90 for a case. I still have some left, somewhere.
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Well, finally shot the 527 in 7.62x39 today, I?m not one to just say it was great if in fact it wasn?t.....but I really enjoyed the Carbine set up with open sights and the ?set trigger? option, it was very accurate out to 100yds, with just the open sights, which is what I prefer in the Carbine configuration. Agree completely with what ?cz75BDShooter? contributed. Would really consider the same setup in 5.56x45 after shooting this one :)
I did use the 124gr Tula in my range trip.......first couple rounds were a little difficult to chamber/cycle....I attribute that to me ???, after firing and cycling those it ran flawlessly the remainder of the time....looks to have needed just a few rounds to "loosen" up a bit.
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I found some! 50 rounds of Wolf steel, made before the Wolf Classic junk. When I get the 527M back out to the line I'll see how they do.
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Well after looking at other .223 options out in the rifle-verse (rifle universe) I decided I'd really like to go with the 527 Carbine again but in .223 .......just really liked the 7.62 version and haven't really held or found via research anything that compares, based on what I'm looking for. So let it be said.......so let it be done! ;D
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So it is written and ordained, scribed in the Book of Steel. 8)
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Well, I chose the 7.62x39 because I like using a 30 caliber bullet when deer hunting. Hornady's 123 grain SST should work quite well, they even use steel casings.
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Well, I chose the 7.62x39 because I like using a 30 caliber bullet when deer hunting. Hornady's 123 grain SST should work quite well, they even use steel casings.
If I had to have just one.....the 7.62x39 would be the one, but fortunately I get to enjoy both....I?m really good to myself ;D
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Well, I chose the 7.62x39 because I like using a 30 caliber bullet when deer hunting. Hornady's 123 grain SST should work quite well, they even use steel casings.
That's my choice for bullet as well, but I handload them.
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My 527 7.62 x39 carbine performed flawlessly this morning. 20 steps, the SST put the hammer down.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181028/e444329bf515f4ce5c4d32a5e72d421c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181028/75f36ad4f582911a65864101359ca050.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181028/f184896d3c443905356b4ad9a243334b.jpg)
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Thank you for the pictures!
Where I live, 7.62x39 is more expensive than .223 so I decided to go for the .223. I don't plan to hunt with it, I just want to learn a new skill: rifle shooting.
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I don't hunt either but it looks like both the you and the carbine did the job flawlessly.
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Austro, good for you! Hopefully there is someone there to help you get comfortable and welcome to the addiction!
Gator89, NICE!!! 8)
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Gator89, That is an awesome buck! Looks as if you took a neck shot?
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Gator89, That is an awesome buck! Looks as if you took a neck shot?
Deer was 18-20 steps, very slight angle to its left. Bullet entered in front of right shoulder through the neck, lodged left in the left rib cage. Total destruction within chest cavity.
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Nice.........is that a 527 Rustic American you used to take the deer? :)
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Nice.........is that a 527 Rustic American you use to take the deer? :)
Yes sir!
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Guardian, how is that 527M in 223 shooting? I'm interested in purchasing the carbine in 223 and I'd like to hear your input on it's accuracy and performance.
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Guardian, how is that 527M in 223 shooting? I'm interested in purchasing the carbine in 223 and I'd like to hear your input on it's accuracy and performance.
Sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread and your question.....the carbine in both calibers are really accurate, performance is exceptional as well. The entire 527 platform was just done right. Whether using the standard or set trigger option(s) I didn't have any issues...just a joy to shoot. If I had to be really picky, the first mag or two were a little stiff chambering rounds but once those were cycled through the chambering action smoothed out nicely, but new bolt actions are....well, new so a little break-in isn't unheard of. Not many open sight carbines on the market, and even if there were I'm not sure any would be better than this........hope this helps....if you have any specific questions just post them and I'll check back regularly to answer.
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Guardian, thank you and happy new year. I have the carbine in 7.62 and it works great, but I've only ever shot steel case through it and it's very accurate with that. I just ordered a RCBS kit and was going to start reloading 223 and I was considering buying the carbine in 223 as well. Most people who buy the carbine usually go for the 7.62 version so there's not much info on the carbines performance in 223 that I have found. Once I get some time under my belt reloading 223 I'm going to try 7.62, I have 100 brass cases put away in the caliber. I enjoy shooting 223 as it's very low recoil and a very accurate round for my use. Thank you for your reply and info.
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Been looking for this specific model finally came across one, its mine now :).....Rustic Carbine in 7.62x39mm 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/g5DXyKc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9YI06Ec.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TAz9wVV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/l89HoGq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Kx7L7FQ.jpg)
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Very nice find. Now you just need to find it's preferred load.
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My 527 shoots the Hornady steel case SST's very well.
PPU ammo performed well also.
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That wood is not the prettiest compared to the factory finish on mine but looks like it shoots just fine.Is that beech as opposed to Turkish walnut? I have shot several big bodied Alberta WT's with mine with 123gr Hornady SP/Privi brass ,Fed mag primer and 25 gr of H4198 cuts 1/2" or better at 100 yards with a 4X Leupold benched.Before the rant starts on primers,with standard LRP's the groups open to 1 " so I didn't argue with the gun.Dime sized group this AM hunting season opens Nov 1-30.I also load 150gr Sierra .311's for bigger stuff like bear+moose.Barnes makes a nice TSX 123gr that works well too at 25.5gr of H4198.Cheap as loading a .223 powder wise.90gr Lee cast Tokarev pistol bullet with a light dose of Bullseye for grouse.What's not to like?
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That wood is not the prettiest compared to the factory finish on mine but looks like it shoots just fine.Is that beech as opposed to Turkish walnut? I have shot several big bodied Alberta WT's with mine with 123gr Hornady SP/Privi brass ,Fed mag primer and 25 gr of H4198 cuts 1/2" or better at 100 yards with a 4X Leupold benched.Before the rant starts on primers,with standard LRP's the groups open to 1 " so I didn't argue with the gun.Dime sized group this AM hunting season opens Nov 1-30.I also load 150gr Sierra .311's for bigger stuff like bear+moose.Barnes makes a nice TSX 123gr that works well too at 25.5gr of H4198.Cheap as loading a .223 powder wise.90gr Lee cast Tokarev pistol bullet with a light dose of Bullseye for grouse.What's not to like?
It is a Beechwood stock with the Rustic finish.......I just like a change of pace (aka "different") as long as its still classic at its core, I do have some CZ rifles w/Turkish Walnut those definitely look awesome....though I will say everything looking the same isn't my preference, changing up finishes/materials kind of adds to a collections overall appeal. Best wishes...... :)
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I have both, a 527 carbine in 7.62x39 and a 527 American in .223. They both have their uses, and I love them both. If I were buying brand-new, they would both probably be the carbine version, but they both were bought used and I don't mind the American styling. The 223 is a fine varmint tool, but the 7.62x39 gets used for both hunting and varmint control, so it sees much more use. I have a pile of the steel cased Wolf 153gr soft points, and they feed and perform just fine, albeit I have had better groups with hand-loads.
I live in the country and usually have a rifle with me when I am out and about on the property. It is usually the 7.62x39. It's one of my favorite rifles, if not thee favorite.