The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Dan McGrath on June 08, 2018, 08:47:33 PM
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I run through a lot of .22LR . I am beginning to suspect that the must be something out there better than Remington Thunderbolt .22 Any suggestions?
I should have mentioned that I had been using Thunderbolt only because of price, I require high velocity because I use it in semi auto pistols along with my rifles.
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I run Federal 550 bulk pack. Good bulk ammo. Walmart has it for 20.00 per 550.
I shoot it in all my non match guns
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I found Reminginton .22 is the worst in my guns. I have no problems with Federal, CCI or other brands.
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You suspect Thunderbolts are junk? LOL. Bet you got a lot of practice clearing malfunctions with that crap. LOL. CCI or Federal will give you a much more relaxing day at the range.
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CCI MiniMags, CCI std velocity.
Not premium 22 ammo, but excellent for the price.
Did you know they use a Vihtavuori powder (premium clean burning powders) made for the CCI .22 ammo? :)
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I like mini mags and norma match which goes on sale a lot cheap.
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welcome padwan,
RFs can be picky. So what will run out of mine fine, may make yours puke.
You are better off buying and trying what you can get your hand on and do some testing. If something is too expensive for you, then dont.
FWIW, many people had some issues with TB, where it leaded up their barrel. So, the first thing you may want to do is to check your barrel.
Also this is how i do things, but i just dont have autoloaders in RF, i have singles shots, BAs and LA and so forth, so if 1 type/brand of ammo wont work in one, then it will work in something else.
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The federal 550 is really good reliable ammo for the money. Remington thunderbolts are absolute garbage.They are exceedingly inconsistent in auto loaders and will lead you barrel nearly closed. I've seen it happen.
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Some of your match grade ammo, the kind used by serious competitors, include names like Eley, RWS, Lapua, and SK, but they're generally very expensive. Norma match has been quite good for me.
CCI Standard velocity is so good that plenty of serious bullseye competitors choose it over the more expensive match grade offerings listed above. It is a top dog among the reasonably priced ammo.
There is a reason that almost all match grade ammo is 1100 feet/sec or slower. It's to keep the bullet from falling through the transonic range during flight. This is yet another case of faster not meaning better.
Also, when those match grade 22 companies have a range of offerings at different price points, they're coming off the same assembly line with the same process and same loading parameters. Then once a batch is finished, they test fire some number of shots. 100? 1000? I am not sure. But they test fire batches for group size, and sell them as different grades and prices based on group size. So the differences between $14.00/50 and $6.00/50 may be a flyer or two out of a couple hundred rounds. Often the cheaper the offerings in the line are as good as the expensive ones for 99% of the cartridges.
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My S&W model 41 will choke on most brands of 22lr so for the last 26 years it's diet has been CCI SV. For the last few years CCI SV was hard to find and not cheap when Target Sports USA had it in stock for 5 cents per round and free shipping I bought 10 bricks. I noticed a few days ago Target Sports still had plenty so I ordered 10 more bricks.
Life is good as long as I can keep my wife from seeing the credit card bill she might not understand why I needed all the rimfire ammo.
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For high velocity .22LR, my favorites are -
CCI MiniMag 40gr RN
Aguila SuperExtra High Velocity 40 gr RN
Federal Automatch 40 gr LRN
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Best I have tried is CCI Green Tag. Next best Remington Target. Both will cycle my Ruger Mark II
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Some of your match grade ammo, the kind used by serious competitors, include names like Eley, RWS, Lapua, and SK, but they're generally very expensive. Norma match has been quite good for me.
CCI Standard velocity is so good that plenty of serious bullseye competitors choose it over the more expensive match grade offerings listed above. It is a top dog among the reasonably priced ammo.
There is a reason that almost all match grade ammo is 1100 feet/sec or slower. It's to keep the bullet from falling through the transonic range during flight. This is yet another case of faster not meaning better.
Also, when those match grade 22 companies have a range of offerings at different price points, they're coming off the same assembly line with the same process and same loading parameters. Then once a batch is finished, they test fire some number of shots. 100? 1000? I am not sure. But they test fire batches for group size, and sell them as different grades and prices based on group size. So the differences between $14.00/50 and $6.00/50 may be a flyer or two out of a couple hundred rounds. Often the cheaper the offerings in the line are as good as the expensive ones for 99% of the cartridges.
^^This^^
I have been using alot of RWS subsonic hollowpoints lately in my Ultralux. It does quite will with it. I also shoot alot of CCI SV for all the reasons mentioned above, but my rifle does better with the RWS.
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I've found these to be consistent:
Geco for bolt action & automatics
Eley target
Aguila rifle match
Federal automatch
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My S&W model 41 will choke on most brands of 22lr so for the last 26 years it's diet has been CCI SV. For the last few years CCI SV was hard to find and not cheap when Target Sports USA had it in stock for 5 cents per round and free shipping I bought 10 bricks. I noticed a few days ago Target Sports still had plenty so I ordered 10 more bricks.
Life is good as long as I can keep my wife from seeing the credit card bill she might not understand why I needed all the rimfire ammo.
My High Standard is the same with one exception.
CCI came out with a limited edition poly coated (blue, red and ?) 1250 fps " Christmas Cartridge" last year. My High Standard loved the poly bullets and they shot very very clean.
Price was just a skosh higher than the SV cartridges.
Hope they produce more!
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I always stocked with CCI MiniMag 40gr RN.
Also tried Aguila SuperExtra High Velocity 40 gr RN. The accuracy is very decent and comparable with MiniMags, but so many misfires !!!
20% of rounds don't fire first time, and some of them are fired only from the 3rd attempt. I'm not sure if I buy Aguila again.
All my .22lr results are for Witness .22lr kit. I also load Aguila .22 Colibri as a last shot to indicate that there're no more rounds cause slide never locked on the last shot.
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In my 452 ultra lux SK Standard Plus and Geco Match are stellar from 50 ft. to 100 yards.
In my Kadet 2 on a 75B SA, Geco Semi Auto and Match, SK St+ and Pistol Match, Norma Tac22 all work well and with excellent accuracy.
My Ruger Mk 2 likes all the above.
The 10-22 likes all the above as well.
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My Browning Buckmark is not very picky but the Browning 40 GR shoots the most accurate of non- match ammo. $18 for 400 at LAX Ammo.
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You might give SK Std+, and Geco bolt, a try.
If you like the SK you can then try the SK Magazine which is a 500 rd bulk pack with similar performance to the Std+.
Geco is the Norma Tac-22 rejects. That is also good ammo.
I used to use a lot of CCI Std velocity. The wax lube is so heavy it builds up on the feed ramp and will cause light strikes when a round pulls a chunk up to the chamber face.
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I always stocked with CCI MiniMag 40gr RN.
Also tried Aguila SuperExtra High Velocity 40 gr RN. The accuracy is very decent and comparable with MiniMags, but so many misfires !!!
20% of rounds don't fire first time, and some of them are fired only from the 3rd attempt. I'm not sure if I buy Aguila again.
All my .22lr results are for Witness .22lr kit. I also load Aguila .22 Colibri as a last shot to indicate that there're no more rounds cause slide never locked on the last shot.
That's odd. I've shot a few thousand rounds of Aguila rimfire and have never had a fail to fire on the initial strike.
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You really need to keep about 10 brands on hand and simply try it. Each rifle is vastly different. My last Anschutz 1907 loved Fiocchi 320, the new one not so much.
Besides Thunderbolt, Remington also offers Remington Target in the transparent yellow 100 rnd box which is OK. Not as good as Federal Auto Pistol in the bulk pack.
Lots of shooting clubs I talk to are using Aguila Match. The accent seems to be on 40gr standard velocity. Lots of 36gr stuff out there now.
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My .22's love Remington Thunderbolts and Golden Bullets. I shoot them in the Ruger Mk1 5.5" bull barrel, the SIG 522, the Winchester 52B and the 10/22 (the 10/22 does better with the Golden Bullets.
My son thought he got better groups in his AR15/with .22 conversion kit from the Federal bulk pack .22's but they leaded the hell out of his barrel. Took days to scrub the lead out. Ruined several brushes, left a pile of dirty patches, tried multiple liquid/spray bore cleaners, finally went through almost a hole pack of a special lead removal patch material (whatever it was soaked in stunk pretty bad but worked pretty good.)
Never had much luck with Winchester .22 ammo.
The SIG 522 doesn't mind Federal .22 ammo and does almost as well with it as the Remington ammo.
I bought a brand new brick of Thunderbolts a couple months ago at Walmart and took the 522 to the range. 100% funtion in the SIG.
As recommended above, buy different brands/bullet weights and shoot them through your gun. Yours may "like" something that doesn't work well in other guns. .22's are "funny."
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Maybe Remington has improved the Thunderbolt ammo in recent years but I had more than enough negative experience with it to NEVER buy anymore of it. The Gold ammo is good stuff,never had a problem with that.
Winchester Wildcat is another hideous cheap .22 rnd.
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My Thunderbolts are very old (30 plus years) and very new (bought in the last 3 or 4 months.) I have no experience with the Thunderbolts made since the Sandy Hook thing that got the "run" started on ammo and .22 ammo in particular.
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My Thunderbolts are very old (30 plus years) and very new (bought in the last 3 or 4 months.) I have no experience with the Thunderbolts made since the Sandy Hook thing that got the "run" started on ammo and .22 ammo in particular.
Sandy Hook has nothing to do with it. My experience is with the 30 year old stuff and it was inconsistently loaded ranging from rounds that functioned just fine to near squibs. My auto loaders wouldn't run reliably on them and they leaded the barrels in everything to the point of destroying accuracy. I tried some again 10 years ago and sadly they were no better and even more sad is that I bought a large quantity since the price was right,you get the junk you pay for.
If you've had good luck with them more power to ya. I lived and I learned. No more.
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I always stocked with CCI MiniMag 40gr RN.
Also tried Aguila SuperExtra High Velocity 40 gr RN. The accuracy is very decent and comparable with MiniMags, but so many misfires !!!
20% of rounds don't fire first time, and some of them are fired only from the 3rd attempt. I'm not sure if I buy Aguila again.
All my .22lr results are for Witness .22lr kit. I also load Aguila .22 Colibri as a last shot to indicate that there're no more rounds cause slide never locked on the last shot.
That's odd. I've shot a few thousand rounds of Aguila rimfire and have never had a fail to fire on the initial strike.
Well, it might be an issue with a firing pin. I experience light strikes with CCI-MiniMags too, but not so often. I cleaned firing pin channel, polished firing pin and even cut firing pin spring a little bit, but ?. At the same time I never had light strikes for 9mm on the same frame and trigger-hammer system.
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Very good "luck" with them. I used to squirrel hunt with the Ruger Mk1 5.5" and it was head shots (did hit one through the shoulder once). Killed a couple ground hogs with it (easier head shots - bigger head). When I'd get the old M52B out my father-in-law would get mad and try to talk me into shooting one of his .22's because he said it wasn't fair (shooting the M52B at the honey bees, dandelions, acorns in the oak trees out back, etc.)
I wonder if there is more than one Remington factory making rim fire ammo?
Then again, there is a difference in guns. Barrels, firing pins, etc. all play into what ammo does well in which gun.
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Rem Golden Bullet or CCI Mini-Mags are my go-to.
I stopped buying Thunderbolt a few years ago.
Eley Edge is da bomb.
Here is a sampling of the various .22LR ammo I have had on hand.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180612/a3728d8667a7b3ce6abfe62fb2887b06.jpg)
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I wonder if there is more than one Remington factory making rim fire ammo?
Then again, there is a difference in guns. Barrels, firing pins, etc. all play into what ammo does well in which gun.
My issues were/are not gun related. The thunderbolts were not LOADED consistently in many cases and many were nearly squibs weak enough to not cycle the action of a semi auto.That's ammo not the gun.The leading problem is an alloy issue with the bullets they used and a possible lack of lubrication as well. How hard a firing pin strikes has nothing to do with the power of a round or how powerful the primer action is. If the primer detonates it will be with all the power it has and the accompanying powder charge.
If you were closer to were I'am Id make you a good deal on some Thunderbolts. I still have a couple K of this yuk. Last time out with the .22's we set some up on a post and used them as targets. More fun too shoot at them then with them.
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You sound like my grandpa. My uncle used to tell a story about him shooting matches out of the top of fenceposts. They (uncle and a high school friend) that his old .22 wouldn't shoot good and they were missing squirrels. He had them stick some matches in the cracks in the top of some fence posts. Then he stood there in the yard, shooting offhand and took the heads off the matches one by one. Then shot the matches in two near the fence post. He gave them the rifle back and told them the problem wasn't his old Western Field singles shot rifle.
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Remington got bought by Cerberus some time back. Cerberus is an investment capital firm, sometimes called vampire capital firms, who operate by buying healthy businesses and reorganizing to increase profitability, which almost always includes (and in the case of Remington Did include) the termination of senior employees with the most experience but also the highest wages, reductions in total full time employees, and reductions in development and quality control. Remington quality control has declined ever since their acquisition by Cerberus. And Remington filed for bankruptcy earlier this year, and Cerberus is selling off the bankrupt company. It's SOP for investment capital firms. Extract wealth. Leave in ruins.
So Remington inconsistent? Yes. Remington sucks now. They cut back on quality control so that someone at the top could line his pockets. And the old company so many feel loyalty is just a name now slapped on junk.
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I always stocked with CCI MiniMag 40gr RN.
Also tried Aguila SuperExtra High Velocity 40 gr RN. The accuracy is very decent and comparable with MiniMags, but so many misfires !!!
20% of rounds don't fire first time, and some of them are fired only from the 3rd attempt. I'm not sure if I buy Aguila again.
All my .22lr results are for Witness .22lr kit. I also load Aguila .22 Colibri as a last shot to indicate that there're no more rounds cause slide never locked on the last shot.
That's odd. I've shot a few thousand rounds of Aguila rimfire and have never had a fail to fire on the initial strike.
Well, it might be an issue with a firing pin. I experience light strikes with CCI-MiniMags too, but not so often. I cleaned firing pin channel, polished firing pin and even cut firing pin spring a little bit, but ?. At the same time I never had light strikes for 9mm on the same frame and trigger-hammer system.
What has been described to me (and makes sense) is that on quality rimfire ammo (CCI), the primer is ?spun? into the rim so that you get full 360 degree coverage of primer all around the rim, lessening the chance of a failed primer strike.
I don?t recall ever having a failed primer strike fail again after the round is reinserted and struck somewhere else on the rim.
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Well thankyou all for the information that you have provided, much to look at and send down range....
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if your not happy with any store bought ammo, they now make reloading kits for 22LR. More than what I want to do, but is an option.
Recently I've been using the federal target 325 round bulk boxes and they are pretty good accuracy and can't remember last time I had one not light off. I just bought a box of the 525 Federal bulk boxes and cant wait to tear into it, as it's what I shot about 5 years ago when I first got into firearms. I also got a box of CCI SV and can't wait to try them out as well. I never knew about the SV being more accurate due to the transonic stuff, but it makes sense.
A friend of mine did give me some old thunderbolts and those were crap, constant duds, glad to be done with them and wont buy any more. Besides a couple 870 accessories, I don't see myself buying anything Remington any time soon.
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Some guns, for the last few years, are made so you can dry fire them without damaging the firing pin/chamber. In the old days most were not. My dad would never allow us to handle his dad's old Western Field .22 rifle. He said pulling the trigger on an empty chamber would result in a broken firing pin (they'd had it broken twice over the years.) I know a guy who dinged up his Ruger Mk1 chamber to the point where it wouldn't chamber a .22 shell anymore (didn't break the firing pin, just developed a gouge in the chamber where the rim goes).
I know a Ruger 10/22 is safe to dry fire because the firing pin is made with a "stop" machined into the side of it so it hits the inside lip/edge in the bolt and stops before it makes contact with the chamber mouth. Some manufacturing tolerance issues or a barrel not far enough back in the receiver could result in duds.
I saw an incident at an Appleseed several years ago where a mother and daughter were shooting 10/22's. The son was shooting an old Remington bolt action .22 rifle. As the mother/daughter had duds and would pull the bolt to the rear to eject the "dud" and chamber the next round in the magazine the "dud" would fall on the tarp they were lying on. The son would gather up the duds at the end of each stage and lay them in a neat pile under his rifle and use them, along with some fresh ammo from the bulk pack box they all used, to shoot the next stage. I asked and he told me his rifle was lighting off every dud they ejected. I started picking up dud .22 ammo from Appleseeds and then, before I got around to trying them in my M52B, I forgot where I'd been putting them. They might be down in the shed in one of the plastic gear containers I used for my sleeping bag, cooking stuff, clothes, etc. for Appleseeds and RBCs but I haven't thought to go look to check.
I accept that many people have issues with Thunderbolts. I know that some .22 ammo just doesn't shoot worth beans in some guns (my favorite hate .22 ammo as a teenager was Winchester Wildcats, not or duds but for terrible groups from my Win. M190).
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I always stocked with CCI MiniMag 40gr RN.
Also tried Aguila SuperExtra High Velocity 40 gr RN. The accuracy is very decent and comparable with MiniMags, but so many misfires !!!
20% of rounds don't fire first time, and some of them are fired only from the 3rd attempt. I'm not sure if I buy Aguila again.
All my .22lr results are for Witness .22lr kit. I also load Aguila .22 Colibri as a last shot to indicate that there're no more rounds cause slide never locked on the last shot.
That's odd. I've shot a few thousand rounds of Aguila rimfire and have never had a fail to fire on the initial strike.
Well, it might be an issue with a firing pin. I experience light strikes with CCI-MiniMags too, but not so often. I cleaned firing pin channel, polished firing pin and even cut firing pin spring a little bit, but ?. At the same time I never had light strikes for 9mm on the same frame and trigger-hammer system.
What has been described to me (and makes sense) is that on quality rimfire ammo (CCI), the primer is ?spun? into the rim so that you get full 360 degree coverage of primer all around the rim, lessening the chance of a failed primer strike.
I don?t recall ever having a failed primer strike fail again after the round is reinserted and struck somewhere else on the rim.
That makes sense. In my case I didn't reinsert failed cartridge but cocked hammer and strike again. So it must hit the same location. Next time I'll probably eject and inspect the cartridge.
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What has been described to me (and makes sense) is that on quality rimfire ammo (CCI), the primer is ?spun? into the rim so that you get full 360 degree coverage of primer all around the rim, lessening the chance of a failed primer strike.
Correct.
This is a really neat video, but the section on priming starts at 3:27.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rCZHG_eEak&t=1s