The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Dan_69GTX on November 08, 2018, 09:18:51 PM
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As you know I just started loading coated bullets. After shooting about 300 rounds I cleaned the gun. I noticed some lead residue in the barrel.
So, is the only way this can occur is if I didn't bell the case enough and scratched the coating - or ...(fill in the blank).
I pulled about 10 bullets and one did have a little bit of scratching on it, but not much....so...I'm not sure.
I already adjusted the press to bell the case a bit more.
Thanks for your answers.
Acme 124 RN coated, Bullseye powder
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When you push a dry patch down the barrel are you getting pieces of lead on your patches or are you just seeing lead on the rifling in the barrel?
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Good question and I don't know - didn't run a dry patch down it. However, I can say there was enough lead in it that I did run a brush down that is wrapped in bronze wool and did get a few flakes out that way.
Oh yea, The lead was located at the muzzle end of the barrel - if that helps to diagnose anything.
Doing some other reading on the Internet (which is always true) I found another possible option, a bullet too small will cause leading... so do I need to size the bullet to .357. If that possible reason is true, I guess slugging the barrel is needed to see if that is part of my problem.
I do know that the .357 Precision Delta 124 RN was less accurate for me than the .356, if that helps muddy the waters at all.
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Any idea of lead hardness and/or velocity of your rounds? Too soft and too fast is a recipe for barrel leading, if that's what you're getting. Might be something to look into.
Dave
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They are ACME bullets - no idea on the hardness, but brand name, been around a while, doubt it is their issue.
Speed - yes - right at 1030 FPS.
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There may be a few reasons you're getting leading in the bore, but the most common with 9mm is either the bullet is too small to begin with, or some step in your reloading process is swaging the bullet down to a smaller diameter without you being aware of it. A .356 bullet should be OK with a typical CZ barrel, but slugging it to be sure is always a good idea. Ideally you'd want a bullet .002" to .003" larger than what your barrel slugs at, but anything larger than the bore diameter should be OK. All my CZs slugged at .355" so I use a .358" cast bullet to great effect, but I could probably get away with a .356" if I had to.
With those bullets you pulled, you need to measure them to make sure they're still the advertised diameter. If you put .356" bullets in there but they measure .355" or .354" or something, you'll know there's an issue with one of your steps in the reloading process. A scratched coating usually doesn't matter too much unless it's a huge amount of coating scraped off.
The most common places you'll get accidental swaging would be when you expand/bell the case mouth and when you apply crimp. Not enough expansion will cause the bullet to be swaged down by the case as you try to cram in in there. For 9mm you should be using a taper crimp die. If you're using the Lee Factory Crimp Die, that might be your problem right there. Many, many people have reported that the carbide ring in the Lee FCD swages bullets pretty consistently.
First thing I would do is measure those pulled bullets to make sure they're still whatever diameter they were supposed to be before you loaded them. If they are, then you may need to find a cast bullet that is a little larger. I think most of the cast bullet sellers will do custom diameters if you request it
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Redbaron - Thanks! Didn't think about checking the pulled bullets for diameter! I'll do that tonight when I get home.
I don't use/own the FCD - just a taper crimp - and that is it's own stage. I should double check, but it was initially set up to just barely give the correct crimp - not to overdo it.
I appreciate the response.
Amazing how much I have learned in the few years I have been reloading - and that is just the pistol aspect of it.
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You're welcome! I went through a month long battle when I first started casting for my 9mm with much of the same problem you're having. If I can help somebody else avoid that headache, I'll consider it a win.
If you find those pulled bullets are undersized then it's got to be the expander that's not doing it's job well enough. What are you using to expand/bell the case?
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I had the same thing happen with 2 of my 5 9mm pistols most for the deposit was in the last 2" of the barrel. I cleaned both barrels and applied a couple coats of Sentry smooth kote I also switched to Bayou bullets. That was about 8,000 bullets ago and I still have clean bores. I recovered a few of the fired Bayou bullets form the back stop and found most of the coating intact.
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Redbaron - Currently loading on a Hornady progressive LNL. All dies are Hornady. Custom grade dies. Seat and crimp are separate.
Lewmed - you are using Bayou now, what were you using when you had the problem?
Thanks!
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We cast and coat our own and my son shoots about 15000 each summer all with no leading. Alloy is 2% tin 3% antimony 15 bhn sized .001 over groove to .356 and a very slight crimp with LFCD. 1110 fps. Check the diameter of the bullets you buy before you load them I have found many to be not what they claim to be. Also some skimp on coating.
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DAN_69 GTX my problem bullets were Hi-Tek coated from Black Bullet Int.
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We also use Hi-Tec.
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We also use Hi-Tec.
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Who is we?
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My understanding is that if the bullet is too small, you'll get the "gas cutting" immediately, which places the lead near the chamber end of the barrel. Same thing for lead being too hard. You stated your leading was near the muzzle end. So I'm thinking your bullet size is OK.
Leading at the muzzle is typically too high velocity, or not enough protection for that velocity. Are you sure you didn't start with copper fouling, which scrubbed off the Hi-Tek ??
;)
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Bullets are still right at .356. So no reforming while loading.
Wobbly... good to know on where leading occurs and why. Thanks. As far as making sure I did not have any copper fouling. As far as I know, I did not. I cleaned it before I shot it. However, while shooting, I was also shooting some precision delta jacketed hollow points. Could that have something to do with it? Should you not shoot copper plated/jacketed and coated at the same time?
Guess I?ll clean the barrel again after tomorrow?s competition. I?ll double check/triple check the cleanliness, then re-try the loads.
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I was also shooting some precision delta jacketed hollow points. Could that have something to do with it? Should you not shoot copper plated/jacketed and coated at the same time?
Can't answer that. I intermix ammo, but my volumes of lead are much lower.
;)
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There can be issues switching back and forth between lead and jacketed. You will hear some guys suggest to shoot a few jacketed rounds after shooting lead to clean it out. It can and will work. But it can also ?iron on? any lead deposits left in the barrel. This makes them virtually impossible to remove.
I don?t mix when shooting. It?s one or the other. But 95% if what I shout is lead that I cast myself, even rifles. Once a barrel is shooting well w/ lead I don?t want to screw it up by switching to jacketed. I don?t even like switching to a different lube on the bullets.
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Had a 2-gun match yesterday - ran Precision Delta JHP bullets - cleaned barrel REALLY well - very shiny inside the bore.
Loaded about 125 ACME coated 124 RN. Much larger bell than before, reduces taper crimp so the finish round just barely goes into the case gage (all for testing purposes). Ran all through the gun - same leading at the muzzle end. Crap.
Called ACME on Friday - very pleasant and willing to help. Asked about crimp, belling, copper fouling, etc. The lady said the best person to talk to had already left and to call back next week - so I'll do that.
Tried to figure out bore diameter - had issues getting the lead weight to go through evenly (this is where the lead ball idea would be great!) It appears I'm at .355 .
Maybe I should get some bullets at .357 and see what happens....
Oh well..... That is the latest
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Take an empty 9mm case and place the fishing weight in it. Then take a butane grill lighter or propane/map torch and heat it until the weight melts. Let it cool and remove the slug w/ a kinetic puller. Now you have a tapered slug to check your bore diameter. If this was mentioned previously I missed it.
I stopped slugging bores but I cast my own. I try different sizes and see what works best. .357 for 9mm is what you will find most people sizing to.
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dragon813gt, Good idea I'll try that.
On another note, I tried these bullets in my Dad's gun and it did the same thing. GRRr.
So, only option I haven't tried to see if it leads is a different powder. I'm currently using Bullseye - 3.9grain 1030 FPS.
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I had some leading with these bullets in one of my surplus pre-b's using HP-38. Like you, I adjusted/confirmed my die settings with no improvement. FWIW, I use the same bullets with a lighter load in my Scorpion (thousands of them) and the bore is clean as can be.
I recently made the switch to Sport Pistol, and intend to move to .357 sized bullets. For curiosity's sake, I loaded up some of the ACME's with Sport Pistol and groups tightened somewhat(75&P10) and no leading. Rounds through each gun we're limited though as I was just testing for group size. I think I put about 40 rounds through each pistol.
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I've been using Bullseye for a while now with my 9mm, around the same load too. While every gun is different and the powder you're using could have something to do with the leading, I'm inclined to doubt it's your powder and load. As others have suggested, I'd try a bigger diameter bullet first to see if that helps you out. Leading near the muzzle does sound like the coating is failing, as Wobbly suggested. How much coating was scraped off those pulled bullets you have?
If you'd like, I could send you some of my 124gr. bullets sized to .357 and .358 if you want to try a bigger bullet
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Redbaron, Thanks for the offer. Before I take you up on it I'll try a different powder to see what happens.
As far as coating removed - extremely little removed. The width of a small hair the length of the bullet.
I didn't pull any from the latest batch where I had a larger bell. I've got 4 left - if I remember I'll pull them tonight.
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Latest update.
Tried the same load in another 9mm - this time a Walther PPQ M2 - 5". Did the same thing.
Got a hold of someone at ACME who does a lot of reloading. Summary of that conversation - He had the SAME THING happen to him. However, it was NOT lead - his was carbon. He thought it was lead due to the same color, but capturing several bullets in gel, the bullet was perfect. He is pretty sure what I'm seeing is carbon, not lead, since carbon has the same basic color as lead. He feels if I back off the load this will go away. He also recommends a cleaner burning powder. Asked what he recommended I try - Vit N320 (which of course I don't have). So, I'll be trying some other powders and see what happens.
Due to cars breaking and rain/sleet/snow in the forecast I doubt it will be before next week.
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N 320 is worth a try.
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Thats some interesting feedback from Acme. That may explain my issues as well. Sport Pistol has been remarkably clean for me and a lot cheaper than N320.
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I have hard stubborn carbon in the lands of my TSO in 40. I am running plated bullets though so I thought it was some weird pitting at first. My bullets are also slightly undersized at .400 as opposed to .401. My next batch of bullets is a FMJ and my hope is that it will obdurate to the bore and prevent this build up/blow by. I have good accuracy but just want the bore to clean easier.
I may go to an oversize 0.402 coated lead bullet next (depending on the black friday sales).
I'm running Sport Pistol and have maybe gone through about 2lbs with this issue.
Cheers,
Toby
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well assuming your getting leading and not carbon build up, your lube or in this case coating is failing because the leading is only towards the muzzle end of the barrel.
Of the last 5 cz barrels I've slugged every one of them came up with a bore of .3555 so I have stopped slugging them at this point. I like to run lead bullets .001 over so atleast .3565.
if your bullets are not undersized or scraped then all I came think of that would be left is powder/velocity and the coating itself not being thick enough or adhered right.
I could never get bulleye and Hi tek to run in my cz 75b so I just gave the bulleye away.
good luck with getting your leading issues figured out keep us updated.
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Try smashing one of your coated bullets in a vise or with a hammer if the coating is bad it will flake off. Before I started buying my coated bullets I coated and baked my own at home and that's how I tested them. I've also recovered fired coated bullets from milk jugs filled with water and found the coating intact except for the rifling marks.
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I've had barrels come out looking cleaner than when I started using power coated bullets. What velocity are you pushing these coated bullets to?
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armoredman - right at 1030 FPS
lewmed - forgot to try smashing a bullet last night. however the coating does NOT come off real easy with a pocket knife.
I got some .357 bullets and pushed them through the barrel. Looks like I'm just shy of .356. So maybe I just need to load with larger bullets - got some coming from ACME.
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I'm willing to bet money the larger bullets are going to solve your problem, and maybe give you a little better accuracy too.
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I recently swithed over to reloading with 124 acme bullets with ASP and have the same thing you?re describing. I?ve paid close attention to my barrels after shooting and this doesn?t to appear to be leading. I use 3.8 gr at 1.12 oal.
I?m not really that experienced at reloading, I?ve only loaded about 60k rds of 124 fmj using hp38 over the last 18 months....prior to switching over to acme coated bullets with ASP and never had this residual stuff in my barrels.
I did try some 125 Blue bullets sized at 356 with ASP and the barrels were clean. Like I said I?m fairly new at reloading and this is my limited experience.
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I?m not really that experienced at reloading, I?ve only loaded about 60k rds of 124 fmj using hp38 over the last 18 months....prior to switching over to acme coated bullets with ASP and never had this residual stuff in my barrels.
Like I said I?m fairly new at reloading and this is my limited experience.
60k rounds in 18 months isn't exactly what I'd consider limited experience. 3300rds per month is quite a bit. . .
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I?m not really that experienced at reloading, I?ve only loaded about 60k rds of 124 fmj using hp38 over the last 18 months....prior to switching over to acme coated bullets with ASP and never had this residual stuff in my barrels.
Like I said I?m fairly new at reloading and this is my limited experience.
60k rounds in 18 months isn't exactly what I'd consider limited experience. 3300rds per month is quite a bit. . .
I try to shoot at least 3 days a week, adds up fast.
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UPDATE:
The deposits in the barrel are LEAD! Could be carbon too, but it is LEAD!
Using .357 bullets and the same load of bullseye - still had lead at the end of the barrel.
Using the .356 bullets and Silhouette powder - had deposits.
Did try any other powder yet.
Jacketed bullets DO help clean the lead out of the barrel! Don't know how many rounds required, but after 18 rounds, the barrel was very clean - just a little left at the end.
So, I'm guessing what happened is, I didn't realize the leading was occurring when doing my tests, cause I did follow the tests with some practicing with my competition load using 124 JHP PD bullets.
So, Now to test in the Scorpion Carbine. Hopefully I'll have results that do NOT lead the barrel and can use up these bullets. So much for trying to go cheaper for competition loads. And I'm not even loading them very HOT. oh well.....
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Thx for the update, I?ll keep a closer eye on my barrels for lead while using up the rest of the acme
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Update:
Tried the 124 ACME rn in my Scorpion - with bullseye and silhouette powder - all fine - no leading. Speeds around 1200-1270 FPS.
So, I can use it in that gun just fine.
Weird!
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Update:
Tried the 124 ACME rn in my Scorpion - with bullseye and silhouette powder - all fine - no leading. Speeds around 1200-1270 FPS.
So, I can use it in that gun just fine.
Weird!
That's a relief! 8)
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That's a relief! 8)
Yes it is! I?d still love to know why the pistol doesn?t like them.
Definitely can back down the powder for the rifle.
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That's a relief! 8)
Yes it is! I?d still love to know why the pistol doesn?t like them.
Definitely can back down the powder for the rifle.
I don't get it either. The Scorpion barrel comes out clean as a whistle. I'm just glad I don't have to feed it premium bullets. So far using Sport Pistol in my P10C with the ACME'S I'm still not getting any lead fouling like I did with HP-38. I shot 680 rounds last Friday and another 80 or so today. When I cleaned the P10 Friday, there was heavy carbon fouling in the barrel but it cleaned up pretty easily.
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My understanding is that if the bullet is too small, you'll get the "gas cutting" immediately, which places the lead near the chamber end of the barrel. Same thing for lead being too hard. You stated your leading was near the muzzle end. So I'm thinking your bullet size is OK.
Leading at the muzzle is typically too high velocity, or not enough protection for that velocity. Are you sure you didn't start with copper fouling, which scrubbed off the Hi-Tek ??
;)
I've loaded (some) lead bullets for the .30-06 bolt action rifles. One of the things (heavily) recommended was to scrub all the copper out of the bore before shooting lead bullets in it. And then don't shoot jacketed bullets in it unless you weren't going to shoot lead again.
That was lead with a gas check on the bottom, not coated lead, so there was a lot of lead contact with the lands as those 200 grain bullets moved down the barrel. That was in an M1917 with the original barrel (darn thing is a 100 years old).
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I can tell you velocity shouldn't cause you any problems out of the pistol.
In my cz open gun to make major I push my 115gr coated lead bullets 1500fps with zero leading.
It's strange your still having leading issues now that you've used 2 different bullets and 2 different sizes.
After your done loading your bullets 100% you have pulled some some bullets and made sure there not undersized at all correct?
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Correct, pulled and the bullets are correct size - no shrinkage
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Latest update: Finally got some "sport pistol" powder to try.
Loaded up a ladder using the .357 124 grain NLG bullet that gave me issues before.
Shot the ladder and decided on a powder charge. (shot about 80 rounds total) Loaded up another 200. Got through maybe 100 rounds and my rear sight broke. :'( :'( :'(. So I guess that powder causes rear sights to break! :o
Anyhow I took the gun and cleaned it and so far VERY preliminary results look good - no leading. So, I'll get a new sight, and run another 300 bullets through and see what happens.
Maybe it was the powder? - I don't yet understand the WHY a powder would cause leading. I have some theories which are hard to prove, but either way - maybe this will work and I'll save $$ by getting some decent ammo to have fun with using coated instead of jacketed or plated.
At least the sight didn't break on Saturday during a competition.
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Latest update: Finally got some "Sport Pistol" powder to try. Got through maybe 100 rounds and my rear sight broke. So I guess that powder causes rear sights to break! :o
No, it wasn't the powder.
You were probably focusing on the rear sight and all that added extra pressure was just too much. This is why it's so important to focus on the front sight. It's much stronger and can take the extra load.
:o
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Ahh, I wondered why there was so much emphasis on looking at the front sight.. Mr. Wobbly comes through again. :)
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Sport pistol is designed for use with coated lead bullets. The theory is that other powders will erode the base of the bullet over time and thus cause leading. I'm not subscribed to this theory, just noting it. I would think that the eroding effect with other powders could be reduced if you load then shoot them in short timeframe, or store you bullets nose up. I moved to sport pistol to try it out and like that its close to N320 but about half the price.
I recently bought a lot of 125RN blue bullets and they are undersized for my gun. I've not noticed leading issues, but group size suffered so my next purchase will be back to the PD124s(which I've used before with great results). I may try ordering a sample of the blue bullets that are specifically oversized for 38sp, I've heard they are better for most CZ barrels.
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You were probably focusing on the rear sight and all that added extra pressure was just too much. This is why it's so important to focus on the front sight. It's much stronger and can take the extra load.
:o
And since I wear glasses that probably put additional load on it....sigh
Or, Painter broke the rear sight hoping I would shoot low and thereby shoot the chrono to distract others from always blaming him for it.
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Hmmm you should try caughting a bullet see what's going on since your bullets are not being undersized.
Just the other day I pushed some .357 115gr 9mm bullets out of my open gun (cz) over 1750fps which I dont recommend for anyone but the acme coated bullets handled it fine with no leading and the heat and pressure are double what most people would be using them for, I'm still thinking either the coating is failing or the barrel is not large enough for the barrel.
I didn't read ever post but if you haven't done the smash test that will tell you if your coatings good, covered a coat bullet with a rag and take a hammer and beat it close to flat 1/8 to 1/4in range. The coating should not chop or flake off at all.
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I don't shoot lead much anymore, but I had the same problem with a 1911. I tried everything I could think of. When I slugged the barrel I noticed that the slug jerked and jumped about the last inch . I found that the barrel right there was a little bit bigger and then went back to the normal size. Just about a thousandth of a inch. Factory reaming defect. Jacketed bullets were accurate, lead was accurate also, but leaded the barrel. Switched the barrel and slugged new barrel, no leading and accurate.
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Another update:
Ran about 250 rounds of the Acme .357 124gr RN and still had a little leading at the end of the barrel. So, problem not resolved yet BUT we DO know that the powder did help reduce the leading.
So, I now felt that the statements of the bullet not being big enough is the correct lead to chase.
Found that blue bullets sells the 125gr RN in .358 (for 38 special/357mag) so I ordered 250 of those. Still using mixed brass, WSP, Sport Pistol I loaded up about 200 to try. Wasn't testing for accuracy as much as for leading.
Ran those through and NO leading at all.
So, now I'll take the 50 or so bullets I have left and load up a ladder to see what the gun likes. I know that the load I was running worked great (cycled), had a GREAT SD of 5.7 (lowest ever for me), and ran clean, but the group size was too big for me.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming......
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I picked up some of these awhile back, but have not had a chance to do anything with them.
http://missouribullet.com/results.php?category=20&secondary=26
I hope to come up with 2 loads, one super and one sub, to use in my range toys.
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I saw those when looking around. But the only one I saw w/o a lube groove was the blue bullets version. Also, I didn't want to got to 135 grain because I know I have to load short on my gun.
The blues have to be loaded at 1.075, which is getting too short for my liking. However they all fed just fine.
Maybe these blues will work fine....then I'll have the "blues" for the pistol and the "reds" for the Scorpion. The Scorpion just loves the .357 ACME 124gr RN NLG.
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I picked up some of these awhile back, but have not had a chance to do anything with them.
http://missouribullet.com/results.php?category=20&secondary=26
I hope to come up with 2 loads, one super and one sub, to use in my range toys.
Load info for the 135gr MBC coated here:
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=96152.msg739645#msg739645
[Mods added all the missing info]
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Viking499 Thanks for the link.
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I'm still amazed you've had so much trouble out of this barrel(Scorpion right?). I wonder if CZ would look at it under warranty.
I've been loading Gallant 135rn in .357, I think I've finally found a bullet/load that works for matches in both pistol and carbine. They'll load longer, but I like them at 1.11, working well with Sport Pistol. I could load lighter for the carbine but I'm not good enough yet for it to matter, heck the Scorpion will never shoot flat anyway. Having said all this, I've never had a leading issue in the Scorpion with any coated bullets, even the ones that leaded in a 75 barrel.
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Earl,
The Scorpion did lead a VERY little bit with the .356 ACME 124gr bullet. With the .357 NO leading at all - so I got a good load there.
It is the SP-01 Target 2 pistol that likes to lead the end of the barrel. I've had that for several years and have at least 25K rounds though it. I was almost at the point of just forgetting coated bullets for it and just using the PD 124 JHP, but seems like I always need to tinker and see if there is something else a little better. The leading issue now is more of a "I gotta figure this out" thing for me.
Just figured I'd update this thread as I go so in case it helps someone else in the future. Always drives me nuts when someone asks for help/advice. They receive it, but never report back what happened.
I DO really appreciate the advice, comments you have given!
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Next update:
Using Sport Pistol powder I loaded a ladder for the blue bullets .358 125gr RN. I found a few loads that look very promising. Initially I'd say as good as the PD 124gr JHP. No leading so far. So, I ordered a few more bullets to do further testing.
One interesting note - When I loaded the .358 PD FMJ bullets I didn't have good results - just the opposite with the coated .358.
All this testing was done in my CZ SP-01 Target 2, which leaded with the Acme .357 124gr bullet
UPDATE::: It is .356 PD bullets - NOT .358
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I would think FMJ would be too hard to push a .358 through a 9mm barrel. Wouldn't that increase pressure substantially?
FWIW, I sighted in one of my pre-b's yesterday with a Vortex Venom shooting Gallant .357 135rn w/3.5gr of SP(1.11oal). 1.5" group @ 25yds rested. I used the same load in my Scorpion for a Steel Challenge match a couple weeks ago. I think I've finally found a bullet/load to use in both pistols and rifle.
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I agree with Earl. Typically FMJ bullets should be no larger than the bore, or pressure will indeed rise.
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Where did this adventure end up ?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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I only shoot PD124 JHPs. I never paid much attention to diameter till i read this array of posts. I realize you won't get leading from FMJs but is there any issues I should be aware of since the PD 124 JHP is only .355 in diameter?
I shoot them in competition mainly in my P01 and intermittently in my P10C. Since the PD 124 JHPs were so highly recommended, I never gave much thought to diameter and its possible negative effects.
I have loaded and shot over 4000 rounds since joining this forum as a complete newbie with zero failures...I check every round with case gauge and remove any that don't fit. This is less than 1% usually. Actually caught myself loading 2 .380 cases this way. Guess my preliminary case check missed them but got em using case gauge.
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I only shoot PD124 JHPs. I never paid much attention to diameter till i read this array of posts. I realize you won't get leading from FMJs but is there any issues I should be aware of since the PD 124 JHP is only .355 in diameter?
I shoot them in competition mainly in my P01 and intermittently in my P10C. Since the PD 124 JHPs were so highly recommended, I never gave much thought to diameter and its possible negative effects.
I have loaded and shot over 4000 rounds since joining this forum as a complete newbie with zero failures...I check every round with case gauge and remove any that don't fit. This is less than 1% usually. Actually caught myself loading 2 .380 cases this way. Guess my preliminary case check missed them but got em using case gauge.
i cannot stand those reloaders who have many recurring issues with their ammo while shooting in competition....slows things down to a crawl. I try not to be that guy.
.355 is correct for jacketed.
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Good question - I've been adding info as I find out so.....here is a summary of the process.
This is all for the CZ SP-01 Target 2 pistol
- Acme 124gr RN .356 leaded the end of the barrel - With various powders and charges.
- Acme 124gr RN .357 leaded the end of the barrel - maybe a little less, but was hard to tell. With various powders and charges.
- Slugged barrel - hard to tell, but it appears to be .356.
- Used Sport pistol powder - a lot less leading, but still there - with .357 bullets.
- Blue Bullets 125gr RN .358 - no leading with sport pistol powder - total of 250 shot. Ordered more to do extensive testing and to see about accuracy.
For Scorpion Carbine
- Had a little leading with the .356 Acme bullets with 231 powder. (didn't do much other powder testing).
- NO leading with .357 bullets with any powder.
- Didn't and won't try the .358 blue bullets.
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Also - I updated my previous post..
It is .356 PD FMJ bullets - NOT .358!!! MY BAD!!!!! For reference - don't trust my memory - that is why I have a log book!!!
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that is why I have a log book!!!
YES everyone should have a log.
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More info on this subject -
Due to life events, I didn't get back to this testing till now.
So, loading Blue Hitek coated 125gr .358 bullets solved the leading problem. Used Sport Pistol powder. So, as many suggested, I needed a larger diameter bullet.
Very accurate, however, in my CZ I have to load these too short for my liking. So, I'll be checking around for other .358 dia bullets to test.
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These 124gr for 38 cal might do OK for you. They are 0.358" and HiTek coated.
http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=234&category=5&secondary=9
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So, loading Blue Hitek coated 125gr .358 bullets solved the leading problem. Used Sport Pistol powder. So, as many suggested, I needed a larger diameter bullet.
Very accurate, however, in my CZ I have to load these too short for my liking. So, I'll be checking around for other .358 dia bullets to test.
What OAL are you loading them to? and are you doing anything special to expand (expand, not flare/bell) the case in order to seat those .358's?
Nate
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Wobbly, thanks for the link.
Looking at the price for 3000 with shipping, I'm less than 1 cent difference from when Precision Delta has their JHP on sale 7.66c vs 8.4c so I'll probably stop this exercise and wait till PD has them on sale again.
I was hoping I could save more $ with coated, but not for my pistol. Now for the Scorpion and other pistols (non competition), the Acme is working great - just did a bulk order for them. The post office at work isn't gonna be happy with me - again. O0
However, this exercise did introduce me to sport pistol powder - I love how it meters and how clean it is. AND I've had a lot of fun doing the testing. I find these experiments to be quite enjoyable. Seems you do to - regarding your recent powder testing post.
Next up - same everything and just change primers - like you did.
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After all that I'm not sure the hardness is right for your purposes. After writing that I saw it said "cowboy" which means slow loads duplicating black powder. MBC coating is good, but I'm not sure it can make up for the velocity difference.
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Nate, Same answer as in the other thread - nothing to expand - just bell/flare it and load.
What you have to be careful of is how deep you seat - just like normal 147 grain bullets. If the brass gets thicker sooner, you have an issue where the brass becomes too wide to properly chamber since it will "buldge" too much.
Thanks man, Apologies I didn't realize I'd asked that already.
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I've been loading hi-tec coated bullets for my vintage S&W 44 spl and 44 mag sized .04305" for years with no problems. Then I bought a new S&W M69 that has tight chambers and bore .0429 the .04305" bullets leave a mess in the bore and forcing cone. So now I order my bullets sized .0431" and use Lee push through sizers to get the correct size for the gun I'm loading for problem solved.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/Recon/Photo_16_zpsbn60mzew.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Recon/media/Photo_16_zpsbn60mzew.jpg.html)
I've been using Hi Tek coated bullets for years trying all kinds of combinations. So far IMHO they smoke much less and reduce, but not eliminate, lead fouling. Although shooting jacketed ammo removes allot of it nothing works as good as bore paste.
The picture is my 9mm PCC with 10,000 plus rounds of Acme bullets through it after cleaning.