The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: daved20319 on November 16, 2018, 11:44:35 AM
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As I'm sure everyone that shoots .45 ACP knows, a lot of it comes with small pistol primers now. Don't know if this is going to become the new standard, but I pick up a lot more small than large at the range. In the meantime, it means an extra sorting step, and a decision, do I use both, or do I pick one and toss the other? I only load for two pistol cartridges, 9 mm and .45 ACP, but have to stock two different primers. So my questions are:
Is there any reason (other than tradition) to prefer large over small?
Would you use both, or stick with one?
Do you need to adjust powder charge for the different primer size?
Appreciate your thoughts on these questions, as well as any others you might have on the subject. Later.
Dave
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I see no performance difference over my chrony one way or the other. (burning Unique powder) I would expect the biggest difference, if any, in slower powders.
I load both large and small primer brass in my 1911s and both run well.
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I see no performance difference over my chrony one way or the other. (burning Unique powder) I would expect the biggest difference, if any, in slower powders. I load both large and small primer brass in my 1911s and both run well.
I load 45ACP as well, but not enough to have run batches over a chrono like our distinguished colleague. However, my reading on the subject reflects the same answer. Large or small makes no difference to the powder or bullet. Only to your primer feed mechanism ! ;D
Both sizes of primered brass remain hugely popular. If you want to trade one for the other, then may I suggest.... http://brassbucket.net/
;)
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I pick it all up.
I run it through the polisher to get the range dirt/dust off it.
I inspect/sort it out into separate jugs/cans.
I run it through the resizing die, bell the case mouth, prime it and store it in separate jugs till put the powder/bullet in it.
Small primer? Large primer? It all goes bang.
I prime with a Lee hand held priming tool so if I miss one here and there I find it then. A small primer won't stay in a large primer pocket and large primer won't go into a small primer pocket. When that happens (not often, but it does) I just put that piece of brass in the correct jug and prime it when I use that jug of brass.
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I pick it all up.
I run it through the polisher to get the range dirt/dust off it.
I inspect/sort it out into separate jugs/cans.
I run it through the resizing die, bell the case mouth, prime it and store it in separate jugs till put the powder/bullet in it.
Small primer? Large primer? It all goes bang.
I prime with a Lee hand held priming tool so if I miss one here and there I find it then. A small primer won't stay in a large primer pocket and large primer won't go into a small primer pocket. When that happens (not often, but it does) I just put that piece of brass in the correct jug and prime it when I use that jug of brass.
This has been my process, although I haven't gotten to the priming step yet. Appreciate the input, will stop wasting my limited supply of skull sweat on this non-issue. Thanks, all!
Dave
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Great point from Wobbly. I could see if using a progressive press and miss catching a small primer pocket it could ruin your day or at least trip you up! LOLOL
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If I only shot 9mm and 45 I'd honestly prefer sm primer pockets because you don't have to change the primer setup, most folks HATE sm primer 45's, I bet you could trade them out 2 to 1 and come out way ahead. Any performance differences could be made up by shooting sm magnum primers, but I doubt you would see/notice any differences.
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My two bits worth, I load all SPP in 45 now. I load on a 550 and would just as soon not change primer feed on it, also, back when primers were hard to come by SPP were easier for me to find than LPP. I do keep 1000 LPP on hand just in case along with a couple thousand LPP cases.
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I always liked the SPP 45 cases for shooting matches ! I would get and separate them and then load as normal then just take them to Matches and not worry about picking them up ! I load so much 9mm now I haven't shot 45 in a couple years but if I ever get my 97BD then that's another story LOL .
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I run the same load (Bullseye) with either primer. Never saw any difference in accuracy or performance.
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I run the same load (Bullseye) with either primer. Never saw any difference in accuracy or performance.
Bingo! Give that man a seegar! That's the information I was looking for, thank you.
Dave
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I always suspected Browning simply cut down 30-06 cases to design and make his 45ACP cartridge case. That saved the US Government lots of money. And so large primers simply came with that territory.
;)
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Even the earliest .38 spl and later the .357 mag used large pistol primers. I have an old Peters .357 case sitting above the loading bench from the 30's with a large pistol primer in it. I'm not sure when they changed those to small primers but I think long before the 60's.
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They should have switched over a long time ago. A large primer simply isn?t needed for the 45 ACP. There?s also a third case you have to worry about as well. The NT cases have enlarged flash holes. Or at least they did when initially introduced. There are many reports that the larger flash hole isn?t an issue. I prefer to just scrap the cases as it?s one less thing to worry about. I have more than enough 45 brass.
I managed to get rid of all large pistol brass at one point. The 45 ACP was the only cartridge I reloaded for that used it. Then I bought a large lot of Starline brass for practically nothing and was back in the same situation. A 10mm came along and I no longer have the problem of stocking a component for one cartridge.
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They should have switched over a long time ago. [snip] The 45 ACP was the only cartridge I reloaded for that used it. Then... A 10mm came along and I no longer have the problem of stocking a component for one cartridge.
You just had to go and remind me !! O0
One of the reasons I haven't done more with the 10mm.... changing the press over to the large primer. Sheesh !
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Changing over has never been an issue for me. The 550B is easy to change out. It does a take a few minutes but it?s still easy. The LCT that I use a lot is the simplest of all. Fill the large primer safety prime and install the large primer arm. By far the easiest priming setup on any of the presses I own.
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Fortunately (?), I still load with a single stage press, and use a hand priming tool, although that requires reconfiguring for the different sizes. I actually have two, a Hornady and an RCBS, but I hate that Hornady with a passion, I tossed it in a box somewhere so I wouldn't even have to look at it. I should pick up another, along with some extra shell holders, debating between another RCBS or the Frankford Arsenal unit, it looks like a well thought out piece of equipment, and I have yet to have any complaints with any of my other FA gear.
So I've now loaded my first .45 ACP test loads with 2 different bullets, Bullseye powder, and new Starline brass with large primer pockets. Had it and the large primers already, so figured I'd go ahead and do my initial testing with new brass. Once I use up all my LPP's, I'll revisit this, see if I can standardize on small primers, or have to continue with both simply due to supply. Doesn't seem like .45 ACP is all that popular around here, but most of what I am able to pick up is small primer. Range report soon, I hope. Later.
Dave
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If you are loading some of the older, slower burn-rate Hercules/Alliant powders, such as Herco or Blue Dot, I would recommend using the large primer/large primer pocket case combination. These are not ideal for 45 ACP, and I believe (not an expert), they would benefit from the greater brisance at the base of the powder charge. Also, there are about 6-9 decades of load data developed around the large primer for some of the older and less popular extruded and flake powders.
Years ago, some of the foreign ammunition manufacturers used small pistol primers on .45 ACP as their standard. IIRC, PMP (Pretoria Metal Pressings) of South Africa and Fiocchi of Italy did this, and they still may do so. All of the American "lead free" .45 ACP used to use small primers. I am really out of touch, because I haven't bought new .45 ACP cartridges for at least ten years. In other words, I don't really know if small primers are the new status quo...
If you have a lot of cases with both types of primer pockets, you need to segregate them if for no other reason than load development. You might not see any significant difference with powders like Win-231 or Alliant Red Dot or Bullseye, due to their fast burn rates/low powder charges, but I suspect you will see differences as you go into slower burn rates/heavier powder charges like Alliant Unique and AA#5 (this is a grouping issue, not a safety issue). If you are using a single stage press like the Rock-Chucker, as you mentioned, you might as well get the full benefit of going slow and steady...
Bottom line: old data + old powders = large primers, at least in my opinion. To put this in perspective, I have a lot of old manuals and old powder....
EDIT: ...and LP .45 ACP cases....