The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on December 17, 2018, 11:37:40 PM
-
Different guns like different loads. For instance, my 92FS shoots 115 grain loads pretty good, but really seems to shine when I feed it 124 grain loads. If I had to guess what weight the CZ prefers, it would have to be 124 grain loads. While 115 grain 9mm is probably the most common 9mm bullet weight, it seems that the Europeans like the 124 grain loads. Heck the NATO standard load is 124 grains and that originated in Europe.
Thoughts?
-
Every 9mm CZ I have owned shoots/shot 124-125 gr bullets best, both in terms of precision and accuracy. Some of that can be attributed to my stance, bias, etc. Based on the rifling, sights, etc. they appear to be designed around a 124 gr. bullet at 1,100-1,200 fps muzzle velocity. Some of the FAQs I have written go into this in more depth.
That said, if you happen to shoot 115 gr @1,080-1,150 fps more accurately (closer to POA) and/or more precisely (tighter groups), then I would definitely recommend shooting those types of loads.
-
I'm with Mr Random.... Generally, CZ barrels prefer 124/125gr bullets, but there are a few known 115gr bullets that match their placement and accuracy. I can't say we really understand why these 115gr behave that way, they just do.
So you'll need to match price against results.
;)
-
I'm with Mr Random.... Generally, CZ barrels prefer 124/125gr bullets, but there are a few known 115gr bullets that match their placement and accuracy. I can't say we really understand why these 115gr behave that way, they just do.
So you'll need to match price against results.
;)
Yeah, it seems that a lot of European firearms are optimized for the 123-125 grain 9mm loads.
-
I haven't gotten around to trying the 124 grain bullets I've got.
The 115's shoot way better than any of the 147 grain loads I've tried so far.
I've got a 147 that isn't as bad as the rest of them I've tried but it's with a powder I'd rather not increase the use of (Blue Dot). I'm okay with loading 115 grain hollow points with that powder but don't want to be loading range ammo/plinking ammo with it.
-
Mine all like 125gr Coated lead, 124gr Precision Delta HP, and 147gr Coated lead about equally well. N320 and Bullseye are my preferred powders but I have Alliant Sport Pistol on the way and will develop loads for that too.
-
I have had good results with most 124 or 135 gr. bullets BUT the most accurate loads I have loaded was 115 gr. Hornady XTP using 7.2 gr. AA#7. They were fired from a CZ 75B. I believe this to be the result of using a premium bullet, which I am to cheap to do that often!
Your results may vary.
-
I like to run 124/125 gr flat point, round nose and JHP for all my 9mm pistols. My CZ's run fine with them.
-
For the last year I have run 90% SNS 135gr RN.
To me it has the steel knock down and soft push of the 147, the quick recovery and accuracy of the 125.
I have never been a fan of any 115, but that is just personal preference.
They have a new nose profile that allows longer oal even in CZ's but I stick with 1.100 and it works in P-10C,CZ75, P-07 along with several Glocks and a HiPower Clone and a AR9.
-
For me 124g I only load 124g bullets and I can load a bullet that will be more accurate then most bullets you can buy.
The reason I only load 124's is because when I did buy bullets 124's worked consistently better and softer in my CZ's.
Why? Don't know but I do know its true,
RCG
-
For the last year I have run 90% SNS 135gr RN.
To me it has the steel knock down and soft push of the 147, the quick recovery and accuracy of the 125.
I have never been a fan of any 115, but that is just personal preference.
They have a new nose profile that allows longer oal even in CZ's but I stick with 1.100 and it works in P-10C,CZ75, P-07 along with several Glocks and a HiPower Clone and a AR9.
Interesting post, oldfrank.
I've yet to acquire my SP01 Shadow (waiting 6 weeks for the PTA lol) but I've been shooting a tupperware M&P in IPSC for 8 years using 135gr RN. I have noticed that just about everyone else including those with CZs shoot 124/5 for the fast sight recovery but with a very small build and a bit of wrist issues I've preferred the "softer" 135.
If the heavier weight projies shoot well in CZs then great. I believe the twist rate is 1 in 10 whereas the M&P is a crazy 1 in 18.75" lols
However I realise it's probably difficult to make a real comparison between a plastic and steel gun regarding how bullet weights/loads are going to perform
-
147gr S&S in all of my production guns. I'm going to be trying some 135s here soon since I have a case on the shelf for the last couple years.
I do shoot 115gr PD HPs in my two open CZs but that is a different animal.
-
While 115 grain 9mm is probably the most common 9mm bullet weight, it seems that the Europeans like the 124 grain loads. Heck the NATO standard load is 124 grains and that originated in Europe.
Thoughts?
It may be true that 115gr is most common for commercially manufactured loads in the US, but that's a matter of money -- people buying their ammo neither care nor know the difference, and 115gr bullets are simply cheaper for the manufacturers to use, and thus they charge less. Even the modest uptick of price for 124gr at the counter at Walmart will be enough to turn most buyers to the 115gr at a dollar or two cheaper. And while we might appreciate the difference in recoil at the same power factor, most 115gr cheap ammo is loaded light, most buyers don't know there will be a difference, and if you don't know there is a difference, it's incredibly unlikely you would recognize one when the last time you shot a different weight was the last time you shot at all, which for most gun owners is 2-12 months earlier. That's why 115 is most common commercially. They are not most common for purpose-loaded cartridges by reloaders.
My most accurate loads with my CZ ShadowLine have been with the 115gr Hornady HAP. I haven't shot the 125gr HAP, so I suppose that might be even more accurate.
It is undoubtedly true that certain twist rates will work better with certain bullet weights.
It can also be true that certain bullet weights will perform best at certain velocity ranges in certain guns, also at least in part tied to twist rate.
I have done no serious load development at 50 yards for 9mm (.45, yes, but not 9mm). I've done a little 9mm development at that range, but not enough to speak with authority on what works best for my pistols.
But out to 35 yards, with the exception of that 115gr Hornady HAP, 124/125gr has performed best. I am in no way sure that this means 124/125gr is best in my pistol, in general. Rather, for the application I load for -- 9mm action pistol -- and the velocities I load to for that application, 124/125gr is best. The transonic range from around 1100 - 1150 (true transonic range is much larger, but 1100-1150 is the really bad range) will affect accuracy negatively, so I prefer to stay below or above that all the way to the target, which out to 35 yards means starting below 1100, or above maybe 1180/1190. For 50 yards, it means starting over 1200. For all I know, I might find more accurate loads over 1200 feet/sec, but THAT is not acceptable for my primary application in terms of recoil, so I am staying under 1100 by default. Given that ceiling, and given the desire to mitigate recoil, and given that my ShadowLine does best in terms of accuracy with 124/125gr bullets between 1060-1080, which falls right into that 132-134 power factor sweet spot for 9mm minor, 124/125gr is simply the best choice for me in my ShadowLine.
But is it most accurate in my pistol, best load at any weight? I don't know. I haven't done that testing. I will tell you that the majority of people who handload 9mm for 50 yard bullseye competitions load 115gr JHP to velocities over 1200 feet/sec, so if there were 124gr bullets that would do better, I don't think we'd see the precision guys shooting 115gr at such high percentages. Shooting sports are copy-cat sports, where people copy what the winners are doing, and the handloading winners are most often shooting 115gr IF they are shooting 9mm.
Most non-bullseye shooters don't do serious accuracy testing. Since so many people in forums are loading for action pistol 9mm minor, and since people in that group often perpetuate an idea that ultimate accuracy isn't that important, people just look for good enough, and good enough ain't that great. People will test for accuracy at ten yards for a sport that shoots out to 35. People will make assumptions about the most accurate load at 10 yards being the most accurate load period, but that is far from true. I have tested loads against one another where the load that performed best at 15 yards was not best at 25, and conducted the test more than once on different days to show it was repeatable for the loads at hand. Bullets don't just launch from the muzzle in a slightly variable direction and travel straight to the target like a laser. They wobble and dance and drift further off the straight and narrow with each passing moment like a bridesmaid with access to an open bar. The longer it takes for the bullet to get home, the more the variables that affect accuracy are magnified, and sometimes the dominant variable at 10 or 15 yards is not the dominant variable by the time you get to 25 or 35.
We all watch patterns emerge over time. Our brains are geared for pattern recognition. Sometimes the variable we attribute a pattern to is incorrect, however, and I suspect often what bullets we deem most accurate is a result of the appropriate velocities for the application we are loading for, and not necessarily universally applicable across all velocities.
Does my positive experience with 124/125gr in the narrow range I load for mean that 124/125gr is best overall? I have my doubts. :)
Food for thought. I am working again on a Sunday, so I will leave it at that. ;)
-
The generic US 115 gr FMJ @1,1150 fps muzzle velocity load (SAAMI standard) is really just designed to operate most 9mm pistols safely. It's meant to operate everything from a vintage P-08 Luger to a Radon VS-35 to modern wonder nines. Most of those pistols (if not all) will shoot more accurately/precisely with other loads, but the SAAMI standard 115 gr load will make them cycle, shoot to POA, etc.
-
Always wanted to try the Berry 115gr HBRN which has a very high reputation, but I dislike the "snappiness" of the 115's so much that I never got around to it.
;)
-
124 gr.
Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk
-
Most non-bullseye shooters don't do serious accuracy testing. Since so many people in forums are loading for action pistol 9mm minor, and since people in that group often perpetuate an idea that ultimate accuracy isn't that important, people just look for good enough, and good enough ain't that great. People will test for accuracy at ten yards for a sport that shoots out to 35. People will make assumptions about the most accurate load at 10 yards being the most accurate load period, but that is far from true. I have tested loads against one another where the load that performed best at 15 yards was not best at 25, and conducted the test more than once on different days to show it was repeatable for the loads at hand. Bullets don't just launch from the muzzle in a slightly variable direction and travel straight to the target like a laser. They wobble and dance and drift further off the straight and narrow with each passing moment like a bridesmaid with access to an open bar. The longer it takes for the bullet to get home, the more the variables that affect accuracy are magnified, and sometimes the dominant variable at 10 or 15 yards is not the dominant variable by the time you get to 25 or 35.
This is interesting, and peculiar...do people really test their ammo for accuracy at 10m distances? I never shoot groups at anything less than 20-25m, as you say what on earth would be the point of ammo testing at such close distances? I have never heard of anyone doing that before.
-
Zhuk - I will address your 10m accuracy testing question - and this applies for me only. I am only interested in handguns that I can carry defensively. I don?t hunt with them anymore, nor do I shoot games. My ?range? guns are also carry guns. With that in mind, virtually all of my shooting is done at a distance of 25m or less, and 90% of it being at 10m. My thought process being that if I ever have the misfortune of needing to use the firearm defensively, it is most likely going to be a ?get off me? or some type of contact shot. If you are touching off rounds for defensive purposes at 25m, you?re going to have a lot of explaining to do....so when I am developing loads for a new gun or working with a new bullet / powder combo, I am looking for as close to a 1 hole group @ 10m as I can get.
-
CZ, when developing the CZ-75, used the 124 gr. Sellier & Bellot ammo as their development and later standard ammo. It doesn't surprise me that so many folks mention that bullet weight in this discussion.
I was surprised to learn, in a discussion on the S&W Forum, with Randy Lee who developed the new Apex barrels for the S&W M&P line, that Apex has found the aluminum-cased 115 gr. Blazer ammo to be one of the most accurate 9mm they've used, and they now use it in barrel development.
That doesn't mean it would be the most accurate ammo in a CZ, but it does suggest that the rounds are pretty consistently loaded, and that you won't see a lot of variance in individual round performance when using that ammo.
I mostly shoot Georgia Arms 115 gr. "Canned Heat" in my 9mm guns. (Except for self-defense ammo, I shoot Georgia Arms "canned heat" in my .40s, .45s, and .45 GAP pistols.) I've used a lot of Golden Saber when using self-defense loads, and haven't seen much difference in performance based on bullet weight for a given caliber.
-
This is interesting, and peculiar...do people really test their ammo for accuracy at 10m distances? I never shoot groups at anything less than 20-25m, as you say what on earth would be the point of ammo testing at such close distances? I have never heard of anyone doing that before.
When people are loading for action pistol shooting, one of the prime characteristics loaded for is power factor (weight*velocity/1000). Since you know the bullet weight ahead of time, and you know the power factor range you are looking for, you are basically looking for a velocity range as a starting point.
I test initially at 15 over a chrono during load development. That is close enough for me to shoot precisely at a decent pace and not drag it out, but far enough to see how one load groups against another. After that, I have it narrowed to one or two charges, and I will do additional tuning at 25.
Some people train at the range they think they are most likely to shoot.
-
115Gr for target practice and 147GR HST for carry ammo. I usually shot 7-15 yards.
-
This is interesting, and peculiar...do people really test their ammo for accuracy at 10m distances? I never shoot groups at anything less than 20-25m, as you say what on earth would be the point of ammo testing at such close distances? I have never heard of anyone doing that before.
Not peculiar. It's actually quite common. Folks who shoot at much greater distances are less common than you think.
There's NOTHING WRONG with shooting groups at 20-25m, but if you're ever involved in a self-defense shootout with an opponent who is 25 meters away, you 1) might find yourself shooting at a distant moving target when you ought to be getting out of Dodge (making yourself a hard-to-hit target), if that's possible, or 2) you might find yourself dealing with a irritated district attorney (or civil litigant) who is questioning your use of a handgun at such distances. Civil suits can be a real pain, even if you're found to be "good" for a self-defense shooting by the local legal authorities.
If your opponent (in that self-defense situation) is using a long gun, you do what you have to do.
Most of my practice is from 30' to 50', with some quick shots taken at closer range -- but the closer shots are almost always "point shooting" not really aimed fire.
-
Bullseye and PPC both have indoor and outdoor courses of fire - 50 ft Indoors, out to 50 yards outdoors.
Big big big difference in loads for my 50 ft and 50 yard matches. Some of my 'short line' ammo might not even make it 50 yards ;)
-
I carry a S&W 638-2, so measuring distances in yards/meters (rather than feet) is strange.
20' (or @7 meters) is a good distance for testing loads with a handgun. I can actually hit something (and even group!) with a .44 Magnum in DA mode at 7 meters, for example.
25m = @75 feet. There are a lot of handgun sights that completely cover/obscure a target at that range.
-
I spent part of the day this past weekend shooting with my son and grandson, and some friends. We were shooting mostly ARs and a few handguns. (And my interesting little 9mm Keltec Sub-2000.) I've found that when it comes to medium-sized steel plates (maybe 9" and round) I can hit surprisingly well with any of my handguns at 50 YARDS. I am only a so-so marksman. I'm not trying to get small groups but I can make the "gong" ring. It's relatively easy. (It's too far to walk quickly to paint the gong so that I can measure group size, and others are shooting, too -- so I don't do it; it's just not that important to me (and I'm probably too lazy to be concerned.)
We're going back to that same range today to sight in some guns. I'll probably take the KelTec Sub-2000 again, just for the fun of it. (It uses Glock mags, and I've got several 33 rounders.) My son also has a SIG MPX with 30 round mags, and you'd be surprised how similar in real-world performance those two guns are. (We both use the SIG Romeo5 red dot, so optics aren't that different.)
-
124gr JHP from Precision Delta. Super consistent and accurate when loaded to your guns liking.
I am a fairly new reloader - first year but now have a few thousand under my belt with what I think are spectacular results. Cheaper, more accurate, more reliable and less "snappy".
When my buddies at matches ask why I shoot JHPs referring to cost, I tell them that the consistency at 7.5 cents/bullet is a tiny bit more but well worth it!
Gotta buy a couple thousand when on sale to get em that cheap.
-
I've been using the 115 grn Berry's and I like them quite a bit, I'm with you on the snappiness of them though. I found that if I keep them around the 900 fps range they function quite well as far as having a tight group.
-
I spent part of the day this past weekend shooting with my son and grandson, and some friends. We were shooting mostly ARs and a few handguns. (And my interesting little 9mm Keltec Sub-2000.) I've found that when it comes to medium-sized steel plates (maybe 9" and round) I can hit surprisingly well with any of my handguns at 50 YARDS. I am only a so-so marksman. I'm not trying to get small groups but I can make the "gong" ring. It's relatively easy. (It's too far to walk quickly to paint the gong so that I can measure group size, and others are shooting, too -- so I don't do it; it's just not that important to me (and I'm probably too lazy to be concerned.)
We're going back to that same range today to sight in some guns. I'll probably take the KelTec Sub-2000 again, just for the fun of it. (It uses Glock mags, and I've got several 33 rounders.) My son also has a SIG MPX with 30 round mags, and you'd be surprised how similar in real-world performance those two guns are. (We both use the SIG Romeo5 red dot, so optics aren't that different.)
I just realized we are talking about apples/oranges (not you in particular, Walt).
If you are using an NRA 25m pistol target, then 25m is a fairly long distance. A lot of sights cover the center ring at 75-85 feet.
If you are using a human silhouette or gong, then grouping is a somewhat different animal.
In my approach to testing 9mm loads, you want a very precise and accurate group at 20 feet or so, when drawing/presenting/shooting.
When you are first developing loads, I would concentrate on the initial groups vs. follow-up shooting. In other words, once you have a nice consistent load that groups, then practice with shooting a string of 10 cartridges. Usually, you won't get major surprises. However, I found that 6.2 gr Unique was optimal with the 124 gr bullet in slow-fire at a distance, but 6.0 gr Unique performed much better in rapid-fire, in terms of shooting to POA/POI (just for example).
Someone who is law-abiding and "minding their own business" will typically be shooting at very short distances.
-
I just realized we are talking about apples/oranges (not you in particular, Walt).
If you are using an NRA 25m pistol target, then 25m is a fairly long distance. A lot of sights cover the center ring at 75-85 feet.
I agree. I continue to wonder why so many gun makers continue to design their sights for what some call the COMBAT HOLD which some describe as Sight Image 3, below. (It's hard to get clear DEFINITION of "combat hold" on the next... A lot of folks talk about it, but few really describe it.
Just HITTING the gong is good enough for me -- I don't worry about groups!! :)
As you note, at greater distances -- maybe 30-50 yards or beyond, a small target can be obscured. (If someone is shooting at you from cover, and you've got to return fire -- and can't run away -- sight image 3, below, can be a problem.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y87/WalterRSherrill/Misc%20Guns/SightPictures_zpsnutywewz.jpg)
An old Glock manual I've got shows the ideal Glock ideal target hold that looks like this:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y87/WalterRSherrill/e8beeaa5-38ca-4f77-b4d4-935ea6153ced_zpsnn92ipop.jpg)
Another internet site defines the "combat hold" like this the image below. No wonder folks get confused!
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y87/WalterRSherrill/Combat%20HOld_zpsl7y7xfti.jpg)
I like the last two images, no matter what they're called, and most of my handguns shoot where I want them to, when I do my part using that type of hold.
The BEAUTY of a red dot sight is that you just put the dot where you want the bullet to go... But red dots, especially the ones I can afford, aren't all that compact, and some require you to position the dot and then move the gun to position the dot. It work fine, but it doesn't always assure you of quickly getting on target, and issue in self-defense situations. With the more expensive sight systems you just put the dot where you want the bullet(s) to go, as the dot doesn't move around in the view finder. Some of those sight may be awkward on a carry gun. (Or awkward to carry on a carry gun.)
I figure that if I ever have to use a handgun in self-defense, it's going to be up close and personal.
-
Getting back to the thread topic, my Cz's, Cz Clones, and all of my other 9mm Pistols work best with the 124 grain Bullet weight, and mostly I shoot the Berry's 124 grain Flat Points.
I have played with and loaded all other Bullet weights in 9mm Luger, and always return to the 124 grain Bullets.
-
I have loaded, shot and played with almost every weight and configuration of 9mm bullet as well and I agree 100% that 124 is my go to weight.
RCG