The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: mrcabinet on February 01, 2019, 10:48:23 PM
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For several years now, I've been loading and shooting coated 230 gr .45 bullets for my 1911's and Witness. It's time to restock, and I'm considering trying 200 gr. Why? No real reason, just thinking of trying something new. Are there any advantages that a 200 would have over a 230, like less recoil or better accuracy? These are just range rounds, btw.
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I cast almost all my .45 bullets, both .45 acp and .45 Colt. For me, casting and shooting 200 gr. bullets is a matter of economy. I get more bullets to the pound of alloy with 200 gr. bullets. (5 more bullets per pound) Paper and steel targets don't know the difference, so that's what I use.
As a side note, John Browning first loaded the .45 acp with 200 gr. bullets, but the Army insisted on a heavier bullet, as they were used to the .45 Colt and the thought that heavier bullets were better was deeply ingrained in the system. They had also just had a bad experience with the .38 Long Colt revolvers, too.
If you're buying your bullets, Berry's Manufacturing makes an excellent 185 gr. Round Nose Hollow Base plated bullet that is the same profile as the 230 gr. RN. I've loaded and shot several thousand of those and really like them for when I'm not shooting my own cast bullets.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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My 1911's can't tell the difference between 200's, 225's, or 230's. Just a different powder charge.
The all put holes in the paper and they all make .45 caliber holes.
I'm starting to load/shoot more of the flat nosed styles of .45 bullets.
If you're going to buy, you might try some of the coated bullets. I don't usually have a leading issue but my nephews two SA .45's don't do as well as my Colts. He complains about how hard they are to clean so I've started buying the coated bullets. For what it's worth, Missouri Bullet Co. is where I get those (so far, just the 225 grain flat nosed style with the coating on them. They smell funny when you shoot them, just so you know. I suppose some of the coating is burning off as they are pushed down the barrel by the gases/burning powder.
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I used to load plain 'ol lead bullets but switched to coated when I started getting leading issues. I've been loading these for four or five years now https://precisionbullets.com/product/45-200-rnf-copy/ and am thinking about these 200's https://precisionbullets.com/product/45-200-rnf/. I load their 9mm 125's and .38's as well. Great company to work with too.
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FBTbbihM4O8wrOUOkCw6pm3x21iphjrv7DvI52YrAdi-Vw4UU7FBFfuPHqZE1m1PZY-2eunW-rkj9Z1f7e7Q8zlfpeH1qod2oFu_jYkAQVFYFcLU1wBRRj0ziKskQEQcu4oIBN11pCfQXqTkIFHC0qyYlJF8sA7La3te2gL-HscdvnOGw6_-VVkiJn2xlr1yvnE0UlzXAgMMu8kbJg2VqYYS3kHwq4smQlLP7tENtzKxNDfPyKYvdTej5Q_w1FrJxNIGRR7PSV3ge8YfqILuGJ2t6T1hvqfarYsv3VI1jbfp-pmtic0zjKKTtBGxgwCKbVOx4P_t7XWxCbmvCff3TkiYvm6DTFzFz8FIS-LiTpDqYTfQ5fqwZ2XsqapPoyG1oUc7Wm5HaEWNqojkou67HBIuB00aYSnNF9Uq9W1k6BgaP9EfzM6Hn43pra66ewfEKryE-C9ybuawr04zHhR_-hW3mPbRhQc2X_1QNSw6CMr0DE5l2Slle6pameIZJ6p-qEGO8bszvCHP_lwd6TP1Pt11FOg8ZqKdZ3erlBF4SHoaI7wC4vOpQfOKFsPHF_M2rx719U8s4KEV61lsBcB0hwa4-A_6pYcweonOiyb1X5O8MJ7T36VRR54KG5YBWCLd8ADRF84z2DVeHPfPwJblnr0SXOjD022rIdB_Gc4i6YtmZhfLV8EsVOvat8QGaiLTZrcmMC9ES3iUpiFw8_2SJMuM=w558-h705-no)
I don't always load 45ACP.... but when I do, I load 200gr. ;D
The main reason is cost savings, but also by using the SWC rather than a RN, I get a much cleaner hole in the target paper.
;)
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I've never loaded SWC for a semi-auto, thinking that since it was designed for round nose/ball that there could be feeding issues. I take it that's not the case?
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Some 1911's feed them with zero issues. Some will feed them once you figure out the best cartridge overall length that feeds and chambers (it's not always the same).
I remember reading, somewhere, on opinion that adjusting cartridge length to solve a feed issue was wrong and the pistol should be "fixed." At the time the fellow with the opinion didn't offer any advice on how to do that.
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I've never loaded SWC for a semi-auto, thinking that since it was designed for round nose/ball that there could be feeding issues. I take it that's not the case?
This is why the 185gr Hollow Base RN from Berry Mfg is so popular. You get the ogive shape of the 230gr to insure good feeding, with the lighter weight and cost savings of the 185gr.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HePHXMacXJRprYg_Rn5ErvR3sEWunK1LlZk98fsqFHv9K2m2-8DK68Sn-uOwSTP1vjECDyjberFHfcSquvg2KlyBYH6i5VZFPGgeDPrq6KFJvWVpHmPvETto25SzlYYMQfD8dKn-BX1VBwweJC6VsZMPqL_y1iQHMyCYmf23YPvMKwEVsdD6nl8tAsu_8SmKIKwOE4bIFQqeC9D34BjoXkT-7sd4ldRwtHpDoqAJp5w3OJdEI8gn2ZfMuQDqWmqT-0WLHEM1pQahFABXumGnqxTZt19FO_RibOfzIPw79Vz2069vNuPWUEvqkH_XJbRnCvBY1Q725msj6SWscOyQWCA2UTHCbB1HDr34PBcnbelE6QYXyk8Imw-z5Ffipha1SaLOVc_6it68hkknIJiFt3kwRAazvrgJANyIBle5ux-uvgHwcxcCNT-jDoSkgqDv5jRtv3kNOCtItFayexqkGUQU4-I-wUQ11IwDjQnvt5TjRYaNKlwR3IcgXIsXj9SulTNjIzFkP2H5GD5VouSq_zNlzmSglUfZ6Ra0bJBnWdALDQh0U65T8kG4j8NEz41FIwOqvKHqKCcEjp5VW0FQBEjzaaerSoSv7a91SmmM6NWOXHYMEmnCIwoH-AodO0ZL300JEcM5dBgO7MTSgMw-FSd1A48mUr8=w842-h689-no)
? The Cartridge. With the stepped SWC ogive shape, it's more important to know where the shoulder is than where the meplat is using the traditional "OAL" measurement method. Luckily the SWC shape/dimensions has become highly standardized over it's 100 year history. Apparently (I say this because this knowledge is the sum of more reading than cartridge construction), you want about 0.030" of bullet shoulder showing out of the case mouth, while the OAL means zilch/ nadda/ nothing. Therefore, it may help to "optimize" your dies to seat on the shoulder, rather than the meplat. I can do that type work.
? The Gun. Also important to note is that there are literally hundreds of 1911 mag manufacturers out there, while there are very few trusted brands. While feeding the 230gr RN is "easy", the 200gr anything begins to offer complications. And this is especially true of the 200gr SWC. Mags are such an issue in the 1911, that the very first corrective measure is typically to "try another brand of mag". Luckily with the CZ 97, you get a fantastic mag.
So MANY of the issues are related more to the 1911 pistol (especially cheaper import clones) than the 45ACP cartridge. So are we talking 1911 feed issues or best 45ACP ogive profiles for feeding ?? It's important to state up front. On your common "open house" forums the 2 are used interchangeably. That always leads to confusion and misinformation.
Hope this helps. ;)
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The Hensley & Gibbs #68 SWC bullet was designed so the nose of the bullet would hit the feedramp at the same point as the RN "ball" round does. It solved a lot of feeding issues when shooting SWC bullets, which are pretty much necessary when shooting Bullseye competition matches.
I have one 1911 that will feed empty cases from the magazine, and others that are really temperamental when it comes to feeding anything that doesn't resemble ball ammunition. For those, I use either the Berry's 185 gr. RNHB, or my 200 gr. RNFP bullets, which solves the issue. It's like trying to get a kid to eat spinach. All it does is frustrate the parent and the kid, so I feed those pistols what they like and do away with the frustration.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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My 1911's can't tell the difference between 200's, 225's, or 230's. Just a different powder charge.
The all put holes in the paper and they all make .45 caliber holes.
I'm starting to load/shoot more of the flat nosed styles of .45 bullets.
If you're going to buy, you might try some of the coated bullets. I don't usually have a leading issue but my nephews two SA .45's don't do as well as my Colts. He complains about how hard they are to clean so I've started buying the coated bullets. For what it's worth, Missouri Bullet Co. is where I get those (so far, just the 225 grain flat nosed style with the coating on them. They smell funny when you shoot them, just so you know. I suppose some of the coating is burning off as they are pushed down the barrel by the gases/burning powder.
That's one of the bullets I have a bunch of test loads with, just waiting on my next range trip. Four different powders, although this is the second round of testing with one of them, but then winter got in my way ::). Also had some MBC 200 gr. coated SWC's as well, didn't fare too well, but that was my fault, I had them loaded way too hot, a weirdness with the Lyman manual.
And BTW, I'm working on loads for my 97 BD, and just added a Sig P220, the latter replaced my one and only 1911, so that's definitely not in the picture anymore. Later.
Dave
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230 grains at 850 fps. So let it be written, so let it be done. If it worked on the highly motivated and difficult to stop Moro Juramentado warriors back in the day, it?ll work in any social situation you may run into today.
I see now that my suggestion is of limited value, now that I read the OP?s opening completely :-\. Sorry ?bout that. I will only add, there is some value in practicing with the same ammo you carry. Now, that?s not really economically feasible for 99% of us, that certainly includes me. However, there is also a value in practicing with the same weight bullet we carry as well. Carry 200 grainers, practice with them.
GS
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I've never loaded SWC for a semi-auto, thinking that since it was designed for round nose/ball that there could be feeding issues. I take it that's not the case?
That is not the case.
Thoughts:
- There is ZERO reason to shoot 230 for your use
- Bullseye shooters shoot 185 and 200 most often
- The HG68 and others that copied that profile feed just fine in autoloaders with proper OAL
- ACME Bullets makes 185gr and 200gr coated SWC with that profile -- they're fantastic
- There would be nothing wrong with the PB 200gr RN, but no reason not to step down to 185 either
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The majority of bullets I load and shoot in the .45 ACP are of the 200 grain bullet weight.
When loading for USPSA Major, there does seem to be less felt recoil and the Pistols I use seem to cycle faster.
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Thank you all for the wonderful information. I may get 100 SWC to play around with, and I think I'll go for the PB 200 gr.
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My reloading experience has been less than a year with 9mm. A couple of month ago I started loading for my 1911 with with Precision Delta .45ACP, 230gr FMJ with good results and a couple of weeks ago I started experimenting with Bear Creek 200gr SWC coated and got even better results. Better groups no problems feeding. $45 a box of 500 at a local gun store (I live in CA) it comes to about $0.15 a round. I'm very happy I tried. I followed a lot of advice from this forum, among other things I traded my titegroup for a tumbler and bought HP38.
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All my 45 acp pistols are accurate with 185 to 200 gr bullets and my CZ 97 seems to like about any 200 gr bullet cast, coated, plated or jacketed. If you buy in bulk Everglades sells a plated RN that is about the price of lead is very accurate and works well with 4.8 to 5.2 gr. of W231. The only down side to the Everglades bullet is a case is about 70 lbs. your mail carrier will hate you.
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All stock .45s seem to shoot very well with the traditional mil spec 230 gr FMJ-RN load. (They sort of "have" to do well with this load, or they can't make it on the market.) At one point, I was using the same Unique 230 gr FMJ load in a CZ 97B, FEG GKK, S&W 625, and Colt New Series 70 with excellent results. 230 gr LRN and LSWC are also very predictable and repeatable.
In my mind, the real question would be why not load 200 gr? I'm very conservative in my reloading (obviously), but I have had good results with 200 gr JHPs and cast LSWC-HPs in several different makes/models/platforms. When you load closer to .45 ACP+P, 200 gr bullets make a lot of sense. My 1st gen. 97B is OAL sensitive with 200 gr LSWC-HP, FWIW.
I have almost no experience with 185 gr. We don't own a 185 gr mold.