The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => CZ Gunsmithing => Topic started by: john seeley on February 25, 2019, 05:43:19 PM
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I'm looking for some Firing Pin Retaining Pins for my PCR as a backup. I'm pretty sure the size is 3mm x 20mm. How does the FPRP available at CGW compare quality-wise to something like this on Ebay which is less expensive?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/M1-5-M2-M2-5-M3-M4-Spring-Pins-Split-Tension-Roll-Pin-Black-Zinc-Plated-Steel/292853222877?hash=item442f698ddd:m:mtxkV0GeH_f57rRfvZ8fV9w:rk:9:pf:0
Also, if one dry fires using an O-Ring or Snap caps, about how many rounds will the factory FPRP last? I'm wondering if I even need FPRP backups in this case. Thanks.
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Well they are made in China. Kind of difficult to judge without a longevity test.
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I will tell you this, I bought one at the local home repair superstore for .89 and put it in one of my CZ's 2 years ago to see if it would work, still in there and going strong. tried it because I hated paying the shipping CGW charges for the pin. Even if it is made in China it works perfect for me and I use my gun pretty much.
You may not get the same results but I would not be afraid of it at all. The pin may be made in China, but the gun is made in The Czech Republic, I realize CZ is pretty reliable but I would balk at anything made there if it wasn't for this gun brand.
As a back up it will work just fine. IMHO
RCG
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Thanks. I was trying to find USA manufacturers who sell in small lots. It certainly won't cost much to try the China ones. It's like $3.05 for 50 of them (M3x20mm). Also it depends on how often I need a replacement. If often, I'd definitely try the cheap ones. If once in a great while, I might buy one of the CGW ones.
EDIT: I inquired about the Chinese pins on Ebay. They are made out of 65Mn (65 manganese) steel. I think that's a bit too brittle because of the medium-high carbon content which is around 0.6-0.7% carbon.
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I installed the CGW Ultra-lite kit in an SP-01 after about 600 round (and a few hundred snap-cappings, too). I was surprised just how battered that original pin was- not near failure or anything, but still beat. I haven't seen what the CGW pins looks like on any of the 3 CZ's I own and have the pin installed, so I can't testify personally as to how much better they hold up, but there are a lot of experts here that can and have given their seal of approval.
On the Chinese ones, you may not get the same quality pin as recoilguy. The way I look at it, shooting isn't a cheap sport, CZ's are not cheap firearms, and the price of the CGW pins to me is inexpensive insurance in a known quality part/manufacturer.
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I installed the CGW Ultra-lite kit in an SP-01 after about 600 round (and a few hundred snap-cappings, too). I was surprised just how battered that original pin was- not near failure or anything, but still beat.
So after 600 rounds, the factory FPRP was a bit damaged? And you didn't do any dry-firing without snap caps or without an o-ring? I guess an o-ring protects the FPRP a bit more than snap caps? Thx.
EDIT: Sorry. You already said it was the original FPRP. I better pick-up more than a few then.
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I have shot CZ handguns for over 15 years now. I shoot them with crazy regularity. I have one with at least 50,000 rounds through it. I have replaced the pin in that one - one time because it looked like it would need it sometime in the near future, not because it failed. My other CZ's - I have replaced only one pin because I had some laying around after I bought them at the Super Store. (Menards) and wanted to practice doing it. I have one extra pin now in each of my CZ guns case and I am pretty sure it will be great to have them if I ever need it but I am pretty sure they will grow very old before I ever use them.
RCG
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Thanks RCG for the information.
To add:
What type of steel makes the best roll pin or FPRP? Medium carbon? My guess is high carbon steel is hard but too brittle for FPRPs and stainless and low carbon would be too soft?
I just found a post by Practical Shooter who mentioned to look for pins with Medium Carbon steel: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=99464.msg767310#msg767310
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I have pulled pins out of brand new guns and they have been significantly marred by just the factory dry firing or maybe employees handling the gun.
I don't trust CZ's pins.
With an O-ring the firing pin doesn't get hit so it would in theory prevent the retaining pin from ever needing replacement.
Personally I would order from CGW once. Order a bunch of them. Pick up nice parts while you are at it.
If that pin fails you'll be in a jam. How mad would you be if it failed at an inopportune moment and you didn't know or didn't trust an ebay seller with their description.
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Personally I would order from CGW once. Order a bunch of them. Pick up nice parts while you are at it.
You mean to save on shipping? Makes sense. I definitely need a couple of front sight pins and fiber optic inserts. Can't think of any other parts... I'm not into customizing yet beyond sights/grips since I'm still kind of new to guns. The CGW FPRPs have a good reputation of lasting but I wish I knew where they get em from.:)
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CGW ships so fast you won't believe it. I've ordered on a Thursday and gotten my stuff on Monday. If you order early enough in the morning you'll usually get an e-mail back that afternoon saying your order is shipping.
I will add to the suggestion/advice that you should look through the parts list and order spare springs, pins, parts. I do that anytime I order small parts from CGW. Got a couple divider boxes (fishing lure boxes) of spare CZ parts but we've got a lot of CZ's (me, the wife, the boys). Haven't broken anything yet but if we do there's a good chance I've got the parts.
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CGW ships so fast you won't believe it. I've ordered on a Thursday and gotten my stuff on Monday. If you order early enough in the morning you'll usually get an e-mail back that afternoon saying your order is shipping.
I will add to the suggestion/advice that you should look through the parts list and order spare springs, pins, parts. I do that anytime I order small parts from CGW. Got a couple divider boxes (fishing lure boxes) of spare CZ parts but we've got a lot of CZ's (me, the wife, the boys). Haven't broken anything yet but if we do there's a good chance I've got the parts.
Thursday to Saturday for me. I think if you order before 1pm or around there.
I do the same thing. Baggies of some spare parts. Also some baggies of spare modifications just in case I acquire a new gun and already want to mod it.
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Yeah, I should have mentioned I live in central Virginia. Not sure how many miles it is but it's a long ways.
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Back when they were first introduced many years ago, I had a CZ-40B; I was one of the folks who didn't believe that dry-firing would harm a 75B's firing pin retention roll pin. I had dry-fired a number of CZs many, many times without problems.
When I first got the 40B, I started dry-firing to speed break-in, and broke the FPRRP very quickly (after hundreds, not thousands of dry fires and a modest number of live rounds fired). When that happened, I went to a nearby hardware store and picked up a roll pin, cut it to length (with my handy Dremel), and never had another problem -- but I kept a spare roll pin (already cut to length) on hand as a backup.
CZ later started "doubling" up the roll pins at the factory, with a smaller pin inside the large pin -- but I never bought a NEW CZ by then -- always going the "used" route, so I never saw a double roll pin -- and I started using snap caps.
I believe CZ went to the roll pin rather than a firing pin stop plate to save production costs, but I'd rather have the firing pin stop plate (as is found in the 85 Combat, which I also have.)
Another forum member, back then (early 2000s) modified the firing pin itself, lengthening the indentation/cut on the top of the firing pin so that it wouldn't hit the stop when slammed by the hammer (but still held the firing pin in the slide) That seemed to work, too.
(This has been a topic of discussion on the forum here since my return (after years of absence), and I continue to question whether the firing pin modification might be a better solution. Nobody who knows a lot about the design and the likely effectiveness or drawbacks of the firing pin modification has ever commented.)
PS: I should have mentioned this when I first made this response, but the 40B and the 75B are, in terms of how they function, and parts interchangeability, are almost identical. The slides aren't interchangeable, but how the guns function is almost identical, and the designs are very, very similar. That the 40B busted a firng pin retention roll pin so quickly made me a believer.
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Walt, I've wondered that, too - extending the cut in the firing pin for the firing pin retainer farther to the rear so that the firing pin retaining pin does not act as the stop for forward movement.
Just haven't ever been bored long enough to jump into some disassembly, Dremel work, reassembly and lots of dry firing to see if it works. It should, but me thinking it and it being correct don't always go hand in hand.
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Thanks RCG for the information.
To add:
What type of steel makes the best roll pin or FPRP? Medium carbon? My guess is high carbon steel is hard but too brittle for FPRPs and stainless and low carbon would be too soft?
I just found a post by Practical Shooter who mentioned to look for pins with Medium Carbon steel: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=99464.msg767310#msg767310
I am still on the first "Carbon Steel" pin I replaced 10 month ago, and it still looks very good after 8000 rounds and as many dry fire without using snap caps nor o-rings.
Every time I clean my CZ, I inspect the replacement pin and am surprise of how well it is holding compare to the OEM.
I also inspect the firing pin for any abnormal wear, where the firing pin meet the retaining pin. all looks good.
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I don't think I'd have the balls to mess with the notch on the firing pin. But pretty interesting posts. Thanks.
Thanks for the update, Practical Shooter. Good news.
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I am still on the first "Carbon Steel" pin I replaced 10 month ago, and it still looks very good after 8000 rounds and as many dry fire without using snap caps nor o-rings.
Every time I clean my CZ, I inspect the replacement pin and am surprise of how well it is holding compare to the OEM.
I also inspect the firing pin for any abnormal wear, where the firing pin meet the retaining pin. all looks good.
The manufacturer of these Amazon pins you bought sells a med. carbon M3x20mm but not in black oxide finish and in min lots of 10,000! They can be blued, but 10,000 pieces? Maybe the extra width/thickness (1/8" vs 3mm) is the difference in making these very durable for you (besides them being med carbon) You never know. Maybe in the way they're squeezed in there.
Ref:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Z3WG0T0/
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The extra width of the pin gets reduced when the pin is inserted onto the slide, so I don't think it would change anything.
10,000 seams a bit over board :o, but you could try them.
If you want to test pins, go for it, but check them every time you clean your gun.
They are certainly many other pins capable of doing the job.
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When I got my PO 9 , Ichanged out the pins for CGW parts.
4000rnds later no prob.
JMHO, spending a few extra dollars getting my pistol parts from a reputable, well-known pistol parts manufacturer and dealer is great peace of mind and insurance.
Buying parts from a supply house that you have no idea what they're selling and may not even belong in a pistol, it's not something I would ever think of doing.
It's the pistol you're putting these Chinese Parts in this for the range more power to you, if it's a self-defense pistol good luck with that.?
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When I got my PO 9 , Ichanged out the pins for CGW parts.
4000rnds later no prob.
JMHO, spending a few extra dollars getting my pistol parts from a reputable, well-known pistol parts manufacturer and dealer is great peace of mind and insurance.
Buying parts from a supply house that you have no idea what they're selling and may not even belong in a pistol, it's not something I would ever think of doing.
It's the pistol you're putting these Chinese Parts in this for the range more power to you, if it's a self-defense pistol good luck with that.?
I agree that CGW parts/services are proven and reliable. I'm planning on buying a few things from them as suggested a few posts ago like pins, springs, and screws. Regarding the PFRP, I was originally wondering if better deal be found elsewhere because they seemed to need frequent replacing but not true beyond the factory one.
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When I got my PO 9 , Ichanged out the pins for CGW parts.
4000rnds later no prob.
JMHO, spending a few extra dollars getting my pistol parts from a reputable, well-known pistol parts manufacturer and dealer is great peace of mind and insurance.
Buying parts from a supply house that you have no idea what they're selling and may not even belong in a pistol, it's not something I would ever think of doing.
It's the pistol you're putting these Chinese Parts in this for the range more power to you, if it's a self-defense pistol good luck with that.?
I agree that CGW parts/services are proven and reliable. I'm planning on buying a few things from them as suggested a few posts ago like pins, springs, and screws. Regarding the PFRP, I was originally wondering if better deal be found elsewhere because they seemed to need frequent replacing but not true beyond the factory one.
I put into cgw firing pin retaining pin over four thousand rounds ago no problem.
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Thank you.
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My PCR wasted the double factory roll pin QUICKLY. I only dry fired it maybe 100 times and put 250 rounds through it stock before checking it and seeing the damage. Must have had a lot of factory dry fire. The trigger DID feel very good stock, but I put in the Cajun spring kit & did some polishing.
I picked these up from McMaster Carr. Only come in quantity of 250, but $19.77 delivered & taxed.
https://www.mcmaster.com/98296a965
Perfect fit. I'll never run out, that's for sure. LMAO
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Thanks. I only have about 2000 rounds through my PCR and still have not been detail stripped. After the next range visit, I'll do just that to clean and inspect the FPRP. Thanks for the link.
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Maybe CZ does batch testing on these and that is why some folks have issues and some do not. I use o-rings when dry firing just to try to cushion the impact. According to Tim from MAC when he toured the CZ factory he said they cycle every new pistol 1,000 times.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bnl3maDgo0x/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
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Maybe CZ does batch testing on these and that is why some folks have issues and some do not. I use o-rings when dry firing just to try to cushion the impact. According to Tim from MAC when he toured the CZ factory he said they cycle every new pistol 1,000 times.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bnl3maDgo0x/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
Wow. Pretty interesting. Thanks. It's probably to break-in and quality test at the same time. I wonder how a new CZ would feel without this? Probably a LOT stiffer.
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RE: cycle every new pistol 1,000 times.
There used to be a video available that showed five or six CZs in an apparatus with all of them being cycled continuously.
Maybe that's why some firing pin retention roll pins fail! They've been dry-fired too much. (Just kidding!! I'm sure they use snap caps. :))
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Thanks RCG for the information.
To add:
What type of steel makes the best roll pin or FPRP? Medium carbon? My guess is high carbon steel is hard but too brittle for FPRPs and stainless and low carbon would be too soft?
I just found a post by Practical Shooter who mentioned to look for pins with Medium Carbon steel: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=99464.msg767310#msg767310
Sorry I didn't get back sooner on this one I didn't follow the thread to closely. I am in the steel industry and have been for 36 years, so I know a bit about steel.
I am sure the pins are made of a hardened steel, on the c scale somewhere around 38-48. These pins are made to some industry standard (I'm sure or most places would avoid them) weather made in The USA or some other country. They exhibit a spring steel quality in that they squeeze into the hole and then hold tight. that is why they are slotted.
I will not get into a Chinese verses any other country manufacturing discussion because it is irrelevant unless you know specifics. There are some very good Chinese manufactures and some pretty shotty US ones. So I refuse to generalize.
Like I said I have a few pins laying around and have put what is the equivalent of the McMaster pins in my guns with no adverse effect. It is one of my competition guns not my self defense gun, but I pity anyone who would stand in front of my gun because my pin wasn't bought from Cajun. If you know about the part (that it may fail) and have a punch and an extra one readily available, you are good.
That's just my opinion,
RCG
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Thanks RCG for the information.
To add:
What type of steel makes the best roll pin or FPRP? Medium carbon? My guess is high carbon steel is hard but too brittle for FPRPs and stainless and low carbon would be too soft?
I just found a post by Practical Shooter who mentioned to look for pins with Medium Carbon steel: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=99464.msg767310#msg767310
Sorry I didn't get back sooner on this one I didn't follow the thread to closely. I am in the steel industry and have been for 36 years, so I know a bit about steel.
I am sure the pins are made of a hardened steel, on the c scale somewhere around 38-48. These pins are made to some industry standard (I'm sure or most places would avoid them) weather made in The USA or some other country. They exhibit a spring steel quality in that they squeeze into the hole and then hold tight. that is why they are slotted.
I will not get into a Chinese verses any other country manufacturing discussion because it is irrelevant unless you know specifics. There are some very good Chinese manufactures and some pretty shotty US ones. So I refuse to generalize.
Like I said I have a few pins laying around and have put what is the equivalent of the McMaster pins in my guns with no adverse effect. It is one of my competition guns not my self defense gun, but I pity anyone who would stand in front of my gun because my pin wasn't bought from Cajun. If you know about the part (that it may fail) and have a punch and an extra one readily available, you are good.
That's just my opinion,
RCG
Thanks, RCG for your valuable input.
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The FPRP needs to be softer than the firing pin to prevent damage to the firing pin (cheapest part wears out/fails first).
Does anyone know if the purpose of the FPRP is two fold? In other words, is it there to do the Retaining the Firing Pin in the slide job only? Or is it there to also provide the firing pin with a stop to keep it from protruding to far past the breechface?
If it is only a firing pin retaining pin then the firing pin should be stopped by the combination of firing pin return spring, OD/taper of the firing pin shaft at some point and ID/taper of the firing pin channel in the slide.
If the FPRP is not there to control forward movement of the firing pin then there should be no damage to the FPRP from firing/dry firing - to me it means something is out of wack, a bit.
Some of us have commented about pistols we own that damage FPRP and some that don't.
I realize nothing mass produced is identical. It can't be.
I don't know what pin is best. I don't know what the dimensions on all the component parts are but I'll bet they have QC specs with a range from low to high. We've all seen/heard/read about "tolerance stacking". That combination of "in specification" parts that when parts near the low or near the high end of the spec. end up installed together can cause function issues, accuracy issues, parts breakage issues, etc. It happens. Always has, always will.
I haven't broken one yet. Seen some that were gouged up. Replaced several (all??) of mine with CGW pins that were cheap compared to the other parts I bought from them and installed at the same time I installed the other parts. At some point I may find myself replacing the CGW FPRP. If I do I'll be taking a closer look at the back side of the slot the FPRP sits in.
Just had another thought. I wonder what the effects of installing a reduced power firing pin return spring would have on FPRP damage? Maybe none at all, but consider the effects of replacing parts the factory installed designed to keep your pistol running for thousands of rounds (along with the knowledge that most people who buy a pistol will never shoot that many rounds). I know I sure don't know what to check (in many cases) to insure the replacement/custom part is going to work perfectly with the factory parts still in my pistols. Another reason why the little disclaimer on the CGW/CZ Custom web sites advise having a qualified gunsmith install the parts (which most of us, me included, ignore and do it ourselves anyway).
I'll bet the majority of "qualified gunsmiths" aren't well versed in what to look for/consider on CZ's like the guys at CGW/CZ Custom/CZ USA are.
Just some thoughts, right or wrong, I had'em and shared'em on this cold March morning. With my UG P01 sitting, loaded, in the basket by my chair. If I didn't trust it, it wouldn't be there.
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Quote from M1A4ME
"Just had another thought. I wonder what the effects of installing a reduced power firing pin return spring would have on FPRP damage?"
My thought is none at all as long as the reduced power hammer spring is installed (as recommended by CGW) at the same time.
Reduced power hammer spring causes the hammer to exert less strike force on the firing pin, so without the reduced power firing pin return spring, you may get failure to fire without enough impact to the primer. The lighter firing pin return spring compliments the lighter hammer spring and results in the same stock punch to the primer but with less trigger pull.
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Went to the XD forum after this one earlier this morning. Saw they have a small thread going (current thread, there are several past threads) on striker retaining pin breakage/replacement. Pictures of striker retaining pins broken completely into two pieces.
Recommendations on which pins to use/where to get them. How often to change, them, etc., etc. Complaints that the factory pins are cheap, etc.
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This from my PCR after 250 rounds and about 100 dry fires (without o-ring or snap cap). Totally stock gun.
Really wish I had inspected it when I first got it.
I now use an o-ring for dry fire. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190305/73a232b426c67468ea99dde9b4dbf973.jpg)
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Thanks for the comments. That pin pictured above looks thin. I'm wondering if that's a coiled pin or is it actually two roll pins one inside the other? Because I noticed in the latest CZ 75 Manual diagram they're not showing two roll pins anymore like they showed in previous manuals (2mm roll pin inside a 3mm roll pin.) Now they're showing one coiled pin and not sure how long they've been doing so:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJbnRvGN/Capture.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The description for part 57 is "Firing Pin Coiled Pin". (In previous manuals, it was called "Firing Pin Roll Pin 03" and "Firing Pin Roll Pin 02".
M1A4ME, thanks for your posts and the reference to the XD Forum thread. I'm reading it now. It's a long thread started in 08. Hopefully that's the current one you're referring to. There's some discussion of using coiled pins vs roll pins. The XD PRP hole has a step in it so the pin doesn't fall down.. Off topic here but I think a stepped pin hole might work better with the CZ 75 extractor pin, instead of having to peen it to prevent it from falling down. Great thread so far.
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I?ve always wondered what?s the experience for the Czech Police and what it has in it?s SOP for the D Compact (aka P-01 for the US market) in this respect.
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I?ve always wondered what?s the experience for the Czech Police and what it has in it?s SOP for the D Compact (aka P-01 for the US market) in this respect.
Yes, it would be interesting to know.
From what I gathered so far, there may be two main culprits to broken/worn FPRPs. 1. Using factory pin, whether there's fault in the pin or the factory pin had dry firing in pre-ownership or at the factory. 2. Dry firing. The question is, has anyone had issues with replacement pins who had not dry fired? Probably not many?
I wonder how a coiled pin would hold up instead of a roll pin?
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Sorry, John. I called it the XD Forum, the name is XD Talk. Here's a link to the latest striker retaining pin thread. At the bottom of that pager are links to previous threads (I didn't look at any of those).
https://www.xdtalk.com/threads/striker-retaining-roll-pin.442635/#post-7645637
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Sorry, John. I called it the XD Forum, the name is XD Talk. Here's a link to the latest striker retaining pin thread. At the bottom of that pager are links to previous threads (I didn't look at any of those).
https://www.xdtalk.com/threads/striker-retaining-roll-pin.442635/#post-7645637
That's the website. Thx. I'm reading this one now: https://www.xdtalk.com/threads/how-to-replace-an-xd-striker-retainer-pin.61245/page-10
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I?ve always wondered what?s the experience for the Czech Police and what it has in it?s SOP for the D Compact (aka P-01 for the US market) in this respect.
The Czech Police were the first guinea pigs for the PCR, and that led to a change in the alloy used in the frame when, years ago, there were frame failures. (I had not kept up with this topic and didn't know that the Czech Police had switched to the P-01/75 D.) The big change there was going from a cast frame in the original PCR to a forged frame in the P-01 and the current PCR aka CZ 75D.
Police everywhere -- unless they're part of a SWAT team (where the weapon of choice is more likely to be an assault weapon or a sniper rifle than a handgun) or Hostage Rescue Team -- typically don't fire their weapons all that much. This seems to be just as true in Europe as it is in the U.S. Some parts of South and Central America might be different.
Most LEOs view their handguns as weapons of last resort, using other tools such as batons, TASERS, bright lights and chemical sprays first. Like most LEOs here in the U.S., many LEOs will go an entire career never having to fire their weapon against a bad guy/gal or armed assailant. Their experience isn't going to tell us much.
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I?ve always wondered what?s the experience for the Czech Police and what it has in it?s SOP for the D Compact (aka P-01 for the US market) in this respect.
The Czech Police were the first guinea pigs for the PCR, and that led to a change in the alloy used in the frame. And while the P-01s used FORGED alloy rather than cast allow, I doubt change affected durability. And subsequent efforts to make the P-01 NATO compliant made other subtle production-related changes that apparently didn't affect frame durability, either.
Police everywhere. unless they're in a something like a SWAT or Hostage Rescue Team -- in which case they'll probably generally be using longer-barreled guns (like an AR), or are members of a shooting team -- typically don't fire their weapons all that much. This seems to be just as true in Europe as it is in the U.S.
Most LEOs view their handguns as weapons of last resort, using other tools such as batons, TASERS, bright lights, chemical sprays first. Like most LEOs here in the U.S., many cops will go an entire career never having to use their weapon against a bad-guy or armed assailant.
From what I recall reading in the Pazdera book, Legenda jm?nem CZ, the changes to the P-01 style took place during the trial phases before the adoption by the police. The question is in respect to what is their SOP on dry firing, if any, on their Compact D and experiences with damaged roll pins. If my Czech was better than A-1, I?d ask the local beat cops around my current neighborhood [emoji3]
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I had to go OUT before making some edit changes to my message, and did so after you replied. Didn't change much, and that certainly didn't change the gist of either of our comments, but this does explain some minor differences. I posted the updated response AFTER you had posted.
CZ originally said don't dry fire, and included a cheap plastic snap cap with their guns. I've not gotten a newer CZ in many years (except for my P10c), so I don't know what the manual says now -- and I've not downloaded a copy from the CZ-USA site. I'd be surprised if the Czech Police do more than follow the manual instructions.
Even if they have some equivalent to the U.S. Army/DoD training manuals, we'd still have to get it translated... :)
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Walt Sherrill...Thanks for the follow up, sir.
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Here is an update on the FPRP.
My CZ has 8000 rounds and the roll pin 7000 rounds with as many dry fire practice.
https://youtu.be/NqjdGfa8Jkg
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Here is an update on the FPRP.
My CZ has 8000 rounds and the roll pin 7000 rounds with as many dry fire practice.
https://youtu.be/NqjdGfa8Jkg
Terrific news. Thanks for the update. And this is the FPRP you bought on Amazon I assume: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Z3WG0T0
How do you clean the Firing Pin chamber and do add lube or leave dry? Thx.
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Hi John,
I can attest to the improved durability of CGW "slotted spring pins" over factory "roll pins," but McMaster-Carr sells "Mil Spec" slotted spring pins that might be even better via stellar metallurgy producing 17% greater than standard (2100 vs 1800 lb) strength per MS16562. http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5426.msg22929#msg22929 The McMaster-Carr blueprint dimensions match the CGW pin for diameter.
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Here is an update on the FPRP.
My CZ has 8000 rounds and the roll pin 7000 rounds with as many dry fire practice.
https://youtu.be/NqjdGfa8Jkg
Terrific news. Thanks for the update. And this is the FPRP you bought on Amazon I assume: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Z3WG0T0
How do you clean the Firing Pin chamber and do add lube or leave dry? Thx.
Yes it is the one I bought from Amazon, but I want to make it clear, that many other pins will work as well, including (but not limited to) the CGW pin.
For the cleaning part, I go down the chamber with a Q-tip, lightly soaked in solvent, then repeat the process with a dry Q-tip.
Watch out, the cotton part can get stock inside the chamber, and a paper clip can push it out :o
I usually don't lube the inside the chamber nor the firing pin as it might attract grime, and what you can witness in the video, is the firing pin right out of the slide before any cleaning being done. So it was pretty clean. The channel was just a little bit dirty, and the rest of the gun was very filthy, as my clean up schedule is set as every 1700 rounds.
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Thanks for the replies. Looks like both of these pins are excellent which are both 1/8" x 3/4".
Thanks for the tip on cleaning and not lubing the firing pin channel.
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I know this thread is old, but I just wanted to tack-on another fairly recent video I found on replacing the firing pin retaining pin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkyAr5Z_kKU
But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I seem to remember the hearing that as well, I can't remember why though.
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But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I seem to remember the hearing that as well, I can't remember why though.
CGW site: "Why not a solid firing pin retaining pin? We tried that and found that a solid pin will soon damage the firing pin, causing peening. This peening or mushrooming of the firing pin causes the pin to drag in the firing pin channel = light strikes. A solid firing pin retaining pin can also get stuck in the slide. We have machined several from customers slides that would not drive out."
Anyway, I wanted to add this video to the preceding video in this thread so others can refer to it.
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But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I seem to remember the hearing that as well, I can't remember why though.
Edit: I was writing this while john seeley made the above post. So it looks like the information is mostly redundant.
Two hard metal surfaces banging into each other repeatedly can cause peening on the Firing Pin. This is why the CGW Firing Pin Retaining Pin is a hollow tube with a slot so that it can act like a spring and absorb some of the shock of the firing Pin striking it.
As to the CZC solid option, they have been selling the solid pin for longer than i have been into CZs. So i assume that it is not a significant issue. I have not had the opportunity to try one myself so i do not have any first hand information on the subject.
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But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I seem to remember the hearing that as well, I can't remember why though.
Edit: I was writing this while john seeley made the above post. So it looks like the information is mostly redundant.
Two hard metal surfaces banging into each other repeatedly can cause peening on the Firing Pin. This is why the CGW Firing Pin Retaining Pin is a hollow tube with a slot so that it can act like a spring and absorb some of the shock of the firing Pin striking it.
As to the CZC solid option, they have been selling the solid pin for longer than i have been into CZs. So i assume that it is not a significant issue. I have not had the opportunity to try one myself so i do not have any first hand information on the subject.
Thanks. I do like that the solid pin is tapered and has a dimple on one end (for a roll pin punch) and rounded on the other to be inserted more smoothly. But it doesn't stay in place with constant tension like a roll pin.
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Hi, I have a P-01 and a PCR and am baffled about the apparent fragileness of the Firing Pin Retaining pins. I assume the Roll pin that retains the firing pin is the same in both the P-01 and the PCR when it comes from the factory (maybe I'm wrong). The minimum requirements to meet the NSN requirements on the P-01 are that it will endure 4000 dry fires without a failure. Seems like these roll pins are being damaged or destroyed way before the 4000 mark, maybe not to the point of contributing to a failure to fire but still sustaining significant damage. I love my CZ's but these pins seem to be a weak point in the overall design of the gun and I wonder why this hasn't been addressed in the engineering process. OK, maybe I'm making more of an issue of this than is necessary, I don't know, I'm just trying to learn something. I haven't removed the pins from either one of my guns yet but will have some of CGW pins ready to install when I do. Thanks for such a great site with such knowledgeable folks.
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Hi, I have a P-01 and a PCR and am baffled about the apparent fragileness of the Firing Pin Retaining pins. I assume the Roll pin that retains the firing pin is the same in both the P-01 and the PCR when it comes from the factory (maybe I'm wrong). The minimum requirements to meet the NSN requirements on the P-01 are that it will endure 4000 dry fires without a failure. Seems like these roll pins are being damaged or destroyed way before the 4000 mark, maybe not to the point of contributing to a failure to fire but still sustaining significant damage. I love my CZ's but these pins seem to be a weak point in the overall design of the gun and I wonder why this hasn't been addressed in the engineering process. OK, maybe I'm making more of an issue of this than is necessary, I don't know, I'm just trying to learn something. I haven't removed the pins from either one of my guns yet but will have some of CGW pins ready to install when I do. Thanks for such a great site with such knowledgeable folks.
I think this has been made in purpose.
Every machine has to have one weak point which prevents damage to other parts. It's like breaker in electrical circuit - you don't want to replace fried wire inside the wall, you just replace the breaker, which is failure easy to find and easy to replace.
Firing Pin Retaining Pin is the smallest, not expensive and easy to replace part - preventing damages of other action parts.
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Another forum member, back then (early 2000s) modified the firing pin itself, lengthening the indentation/cut on the top of the firing pin so that it wouldn't hit the stop when slammed by the hammer (but still held the firing pin in the slide) That seemed to work, too.
(This has been a topic of discussion on the forum here since my return (after years of absence), and I continue to question whether the firing pin modification might be a better solution. Nobody who knows a lot about the design and the likely effectiveness or drawbacks of the firing pin modification has ever commented.)
I’ve done this on two of my CZ’s. I also lengthened the other side of the cut so the firing pin protrudes maybe 1/32” more. I also beveled the edges of the cut in the firing pin so they don’t gouge the retaining pin.
The mods worked like a charm. I can reliably run a lighter hammer spring on even the hardest primers. And there’s been no damage to retaining pins. To be fair I just end up swapping out the retaining pin anyways for a CGW one after I had tested a bit.. I mostly do the mod for increased reliability with lighter springs.
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I think this has been made in purpose.
Every machine has to have one weak point which prevents damage to other parts. It's like breaker in electrical circuit - you don't want to replace fried wire inside the wall, you just replace the breaker, which is failure easy to find and easy to replace.
Firing Pin Retaining Pin is the smallest, not expensive and easy to replace part - preventing damages of other action parts.
Yeah, but...
Not every part of a gun's design requires sacrificial parts. That a sacrifical part was needed makes me wonder about the viability of that way of retraining the firing pin.
The firing pin stop of the CZ-85 Combat and pre-B 75 designs is not a sacrificial part -- it doesn't fail. And Tanfoglio has made a lot of guns (including the Tanfoglio TZ guns and the Tanfoglio-made Witness line (both near-copies of the CZ design) that use a firing pin stop. Tanfoglio calls it a "firing pin retainer" rather than a firing pin stop.
If CZ had just retained the firing pin stop used in the original CZ-75 design there would have been a little more production cost but there would have been a lot less complaining and hassles for buyers and, arguably, quite a bit fewer guns returned to CZ for service. I suspect that CZ has lost more money dealing with broken firing pin retention roll pin issues than it has saved through lowered production costs. It certainly made many of us question the thinking behind that particular design change.
As I was writing and editing this reply, the message above was posted, and Scarlett Pistol's reply offered a variation on an earlier suggestion and that seems an even-better idea than the one I first wrote about. This post is a good bit shorter because of Scarlett's reply.
With the original Browning Short Recoil Locked Breech guns, the firing pin spring had two functions: 1) return the firing pin to position after the shot and 2) limiting inertial firing pin movement that could cause ignition if the gun was dropped. That design did the first part well, but didn't always do it with the second part.
For guns with firing pin safety mechanisms, 2) is not an issue, and a lighter firing pin spring along could probably be used, which would reduce the force with which the firing pin spring sends the firing pin to the rear after the primer strike. A weaker spring alone might work.
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Hi, I have a P-01 and a PCR and am baffled about the apparent fragileness of the Firing Pin Retaining pins. I assume the Roll pin that retains the firing pin is the same in both the P-01 and the PCR when it comes from the factory (maybe I'm wrong). The minimum requirements to meet the NSN requirements on the P-01 are that it will endure 4000 dry fires without a failure. Seems like these roll pins are being damaged or destroyed way before the 4000 mark, maybe not to the point of contributing to a failure to fire but still sustaining significant damage. I love my CZ's but these pins seem to be a weak point in the overall design of the gun and I wonder why this hasn't been addressed in the engineering process. OK, maybe I'm making more of an issue of this than is necessary, I don't know, I'm just trying to learn something. I haven't removed the pins from either one of my guns yet but will have some of CGW pins ready to install when I do. Thanks for such a great site with such knowledgeable folks.
I think this has been made in purpose.
Every machine has to have one weak point which prevents damage to other parts. It's like breaker in electrical circuit - you don't want to replace fried wire inside the wall, you just replace the breaker, which is failure easy to find and easy to replace.
Firing Pin Retaining Pin is the smallest, not expensive and easy to replace part - preventing damages of other action parts.
My Tanfoglio Stock 1 has a firing pin retainer exactly like the Shadow pistols, in the rear of the slide. I can remove the firing pin without any tools. It also has a FPB, just like the 75b. It’s so simple, and cannot fail. There should not be a failure point in every machine. I have to disagree
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But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
So is the solid pin bad for just the extended firing pin, or also for the factory pin?
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Our CZ's are "different". Some people report firing thousands of rounds and never having an issue with the firing pin retaining pin.
I've pulled the firing pin retaining pin out of a brand new pistol that I'd never fired and seen slight damage to the surface of the firing pin retaining pin just from firing/dry firing at the factory.
Pins can be different (harder, softer). The slot in the firing pin may be slightly off front to rear of shorter or longer. Springs might be stronger or weaker. On and on and on.
There are usually specs for parts with a min/max size as well as other characteristics. Parts can be in spec. individually but when all bolted together the result may be further out from what is optimum.
I had a buddy in the Army that used to say, "Every now and then you get a car with all the nuts and bolts tightened just right." Those would run better, take abuse better and last longer than another one that looks identical.
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About 15-17 years ago, I didn't believe that the firing pin retention roll pin could break from repeated dry firing. I had, by then, had many CZs and had dry-fired them a lot. I didn't believe that there was a problem, despite the fact the the CZs I bought new (just 2-3) came with a crappy green plastic shell casing to be used like a snap cap, and had a user manual warning to NOT dry fire unless that plastic piece was used.
I was a moderator on the forum at the time, and saw a number of folks posting about the problem, but I was still skeptical about it being more than an unusual quirk of some guns.
Then I bought a NEW CZ-40b, and within a week or two of purchase, after some dry-firing, I broke the firing pin retention roll pin. (I picked up a new roll pin at the local hardware store, cut it to length, and continued.) As suggested above, I'm sure thousands of shooters have dry-fired their CZs without issue, while hundreds (maybe many hundreds) have had a problem. It was like the luck of the draw -- some of us just got one where all of the screws weren't screwed tight, just right.
That said, firing pin stops don't fail.
I think CZ screwed up with what appears to be a COST-SAVING move, and now that it's etched in granite, CZ is not likely to change how it builds its B models.
But the fact that CZ is continuing to make more costly models with firing pin stops tells me that they are sensitive to the issue...
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But he's using a solid pin FPRP which I read was not a good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
So is the solid pin bad for just the extended firing pin, or also for the factory pin?
I wouldn't use them with either firing pin. The CGW extended firing pin is a hardened steel and I assume the factory part isn't as hard and thus would be more susceptible to damage.
Description
TECH TIP: Why not a solid firing pin retaining pin? We tried that and found that a solid pin will soon damage the firing pin, causing peening. This peening or mushrooming of the firing pin causes the pin to drag in the firing pin channel = light strikes. A solid firing pin retaining pin can also get stuck in the slide. We have machined several from customers slides that would not drive out.
Install the 61100 spring steel retaining pin with the open end at the 12 0’clock position.
Cheers,
Toby
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I have solid pins from cz custom. That I need to take out now rather have the roll pin fail than the firing pin. There is home depot close to where I live what type of pin should I buy?
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I have solid pins from cz custom. That I need to take out now rather have the roll pin fail than the firing pin. There is home depot close to where I live what type of pin should I buy?
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The best pin so far I've found is this:
61100 Firing Pin Retaining Pin
Available at "other" Home Depot, known as CGW. There is only one type, perfectly produced to fit CZ handgun. No needs to look for it between shelves nor cut to length. ;)
Why don't to keep things easy way?
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I just ordered 15 pins from amazon that where posted in the video. Rather have 15 for the same price. He has a video of 10,000 rounds through an sp01 and the pin holds up well and doesnt damage the firing pin. Link is below. Check the reviews
https://www.amazon.com/Hard-Find-Fastener-014973221416-Piece-15/dp/B00L1IS9EY
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I just ordered 15 pins from amazon that where posted in the video. Rather have 15 for the same price. He has a video of 10,000 rounds through an sp01 and the pin holds up well and doesnt damage the firing pin.
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Yeah... this one definitely better option than Home Depot :)
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I just ordered 15 pins from amazon that where posted in the video. Rather have 15 for the same price. He has a video of 10,000 rounds through an sp01 and the pin holds up well and doesnt damage the firing pin.
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Yeah... this one definitely better option than Home Depot :)
That's for sure cajun is a good company. I have a cz 75 and p01 with their parts. But these pins are a regular maintenance part. Wish the shadow models where available in cali. Shadow 2, shadow sp01 or shadow compact. Thanks for the input. Guy on the forum are always helpful.
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Interesting find. I think I'll order some and try one in the slide of the gun I dry fire with, to see how it holds up compared to the CGW pin.
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Interesting find. I think I'll order some and try one in the slide of the gun I dry fire with, to see how it holds up compared to the CGW pin.
I'm ordering too from Amazon - the 3mmx20mm ones linked a few posts up. A while back, I ordered 50 - 3mm x 20mm roll pins from China on Ebay for like $3 but the chamfer or taper quality on these pins were terrible / inconsistent. These Amazon pins seem to be tapered on one side only which is fine because the other end gets the kiss from the punch. CORRECTION: These Amazon 3mmx20mm pins are chambered on both ends.
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Here is an update on the FPRP.
My CZ has 8000 rounds and the roll pin 7000 rounds with as many dry fire practice.
https://youtu.be/NqjdGfa8Jkg
Terrific news. Thanks for the update. And this is the FPRP you bought on Amazon I assume: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Z3WG0T0
How do you clean the Firing Pin chamber and do add lube or leave dry? Thx.
Yes it is the one I bought from Amazon, but I want to make it clear, that many other pins will work as well, including (but not limited to) the CGW pin.
For the cleaning part, I go down the chamber with a Q-tip, lightly soaked in solvent, then repeat the process with a dry Q-tip.
Watch out, the cotton part can get stock inside the chamber, and a paper clip can push it out :o
I usually don't lube the inside the chamber nor the firing pin as it might attract grime, and what you can witness in the video, is the firing pin right out of the slide before any cleaning being done. So it was pretty clean. The channel was just a little bit dirty, and the rest of the gun was very filthy, as my clean up schedule is set as every 1700 rounds.
Thanks for the tips. I subbed to your youtube and ordered pins from amazon as well. Your video is a lot of help. Keep the CZ in action a lot longer and reduce damage to parts. Brilliant find thanks again.
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my p-01 in 2012 had the rolled retaining pin from the factory. in one of my early modifications i installed a solid hardened pin from either CGW or CZcustom parts! one or the other but i do not remember which one! after 8 yrs and maybe a 1000 rds on the pistol i recently put the extended firing pin in when i did the reach reduction kit. low and behold the solid pin had half moon gouges out of it where the firing pin cutout had been making contact. I knew of the retaining pin issue shortly after purchasing the pistol and had always used a piece of rubber tubing as a strike pad for the hammer. Really not sure why the solid pin had such damage but i replaced it with the latest pin offered by CGW . as an owner of a CZ with very light use i am prone to believe that it is worth your while to assess how your pistol wears these pins and inspect or change them accordingly. neither the original or the replacement (cure) was issue free. won't believe the latest is either till i see it for my self. will be monitoring two guns that have the latest retaining pins.
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Pins arrived last week haven't been able to replace the parts. Package does not specify where pins are made. Will update on pin durability in the future. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200911/6e8880fcffac10d110f28d6e38ef8bcb.jpg)
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That's for sure cajun is a good company. I have a cz 75 and p01 with their parts. But these pins are a regular maintenance part. Wish the shadow models where available in cali. Shadow 2, shadow sp01 or shadow compact. Thanks for the input. Guy on the forum are always helpful.
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I am not convinced that once the CGW pin is installed that the Firing Pin Retaining Pin is a regular maintenance part. I have seen too many examples of CZ owners that have put in excess of 10k rounds through their CZ with no significant damage to the CGW FPRP. I have a CZ RAMI on my desk that i dry fire on a daily basis. This RAMI is in factory stock configuration aside from installing a CGW FPRP. While i generally use an O ring behind the Firing Pin for dry fire, in this case with this RAMI i have not been using one so that i can test the pin. It has been near 4 months now with no damage to the pin. Down the road, when i have more cycles on this pin, i will likely post more about it.
I have no issue with CZ owners seeking out any parts options available to them, but i do not see the CGW FPRP being a regular maintenance part as a reasonable motivator to do so. I am interested to see how things go with the parts that you found, we all learn from this stuff.
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That's for sure cajun is a good company. I have a cz 75 and p01 with their parts. But these pins are a regular maintenance part. Wish the shadow models where available in cali. Shadow 2, shadow sp01 or shadow compact. Thanks for the input. Guy on the forum are always helpful.
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I am not convinced that once the CGW pin is installed that the Firing Pin Retaining Pin is a regular maintenance part. I have seen too many examples of CZ owners that have put in excess of 10k rounds through their CZ with no significant damage to the CGW FPRP. I have a CZ RAMI on my desk that i dry fire on a daily basis. This RAMI is in factory stock configuration aside from installing a CGW FPRP. While i generally use an O ring behind the Firing Pin for dry fire, in this case with this RAMI i have not been using one so that i can test the pin. It has been near 4 months now with no damage to the pin. Down the road, when i have more cycles on this pin, i will likely post more about it.
I have no issue with CZ owners seeking out any parts options available to them, but i do not see the FPRP being a regular maintenance part as a reasonable motivator to do so. I am interested to see how things go with the parts that you found, we all learn from this stuff.
This might be asking a lot. Can you remove the pin and take a picture at 6 months and then a year? I want to create a firing pin durability thread. With double action and single action strikes. I have a p01 to be the perfect candidate.
If you do decide to share thanks a million. [emoji106] ammo is supply is low for me and I'm not loaded with cash. so I will mostly be dry fire and like first draw from holster.
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I have more than 1 CZ and I bought the pins from Amazon that are on the link above.
I dry fire 3-4 time a week for 30 minutes as I do drills, granted I will miss a day some weeks and even miss a week some months when going on the boat is a priority
In Mn if its nice enough to be on the lake, dry fire takes a back seat.......
I have the pins as back ups and installed in 4 guns now. I am pleased with them and never give them a second thought now.
Admittedly I have had good luck with them and with my guns so in my opinion they work very well.
Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I am just not as concerned about what is working and what might happen. Either way if asked I would recommend them and say put them in and forget they are there. I tend to agree with the regular maintenance theory. The part is cheap, easily accessible, easy to replace, require barely a tool, and insignificant if you look at it from time to time IMHO.
RCG
RCG
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I have more than 1 CZ and I bought the pins from Amazon that are on the link above.
I dry fire 3-4 time a week for 30 minutes as I do drills, granted I will miss a day some weeks and even miss a week some months when going on the boat is a priority
In Mn if its nice enough to be on the lake, dry fire takes a back seat.......
I have the pins as back ups and installed in 4 guns now. I am pleased with them and never give them a second thought now.
Admittedly I have had good luck with them and with my guns so in my opinion they work very well.
Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I am just not as concerned about what is working and what might happen. Either way if asked I would recommend them and say put them in and forget they are there. I tend to agree with the regular maintenance theory. The part is cheap, easily accessible, easy to replace, require barely a tool, and insignificant if you look at it from time to time IMHO.
RCG
RCG
Thanks for the info. I Appreciate it a lot.
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This might be asking a lot. Can you remove the pin and take a picture at 6 months and then a year? I want to create a firing pin durability thread. With double action and single action strikes. I have a p01 to be the perfect candidate.
If you do decide to share thanks a million. [emoji106] ammo is supply is low for me and I'm not loaded with cash. so I will mostly be dry fire and like first draw from holster.
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Surely, i plan on posting about anything interesting or useful that i find. I am not sure that testing DA and SA individually will bare any differences. I agree that an upside of testing this subject is that dry fire will suffice and not require any live ammo. Dry fire is unquestionably harder on the FPRP than live fire.
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I have more than 1 CZ and I bought the pins from Amazon that are on the link above.
I dry fire 3-4 time a week for 30 minutes as I do drills, granted I will miss a day some weeks and even miss a week some months when going on the boat is a priority
In Mn if its nice enough to be on the lake, dry fire takes a back seat.......
I have the pins as back ups and installed in 4 guns now. I am pleased with them and never give them a second thought now.
Admittedly I have had good luck with them and with my guns so in my opinion they work very well.
Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I am just not as concerned about what is working and what might happen. Either way if asked I would recommend them and say put them in and forget they are there. I tend to agree with the regular maintenance theory. The part is cheap, easily accessible, easy to replace, require barely a tool, and insignificant if you look at it from time to time IMHO.
RCG
RCG
Thanks for the info. I Appreciate it a lot.
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Since I found those pins, (https://amzn.to/32nXFGF) only have used 2. I consider them a consumable and replace them every 5000 rounds now, and they don't look too bad at all, nether is the firing pin. Problem solved.
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I also bought a box of these, but haven't installed any of them yet. I did an eyeball comparison with a new CGW FPRP I have and they look very similar, but these pins off of Amazon have a significantly smaller gap than the CGW ones. I don't guess that should be a problem.
Also I didn't see anything about a nation of origin on the box, but I noticed the Amazon listing says they are made in India.
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Reading through this thread and the firing pin retaining pin replacement options, does anyone know the Rockwell hardness scale of the CZ75B firing pin? I'm curious because the McMaster Carr roll pins are around Rockwell C43-46.
Thanks,
Ben