The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ SP-01 and variants => Topic started by: czecherated on April 06, 2019, 10:38:59 PM
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Wondering if anyone has encountered this before and whether it's an adjustment or break in issue.
Shooting 25yd bullseye w my new Shadow 2, at about 150 rds. SA has betw 1/8 and 1/16 inch of creep. No biggie. Sometimes i struggle to keep steady and my shot isn't working out, so don't take a bad shot. I'm taking a shot working through the creep before let off but I know it's going to be a bad shot so I go to engage the safety but it won't go up. I push the hammer all the way back and now the safety engages.
So I unload and try it again and the problem is repeatable. Take up the SA creep just before let off and stop and try to engage the safety. I have to work the hammer back to engage the safety.
Is this common? Is there some kind of transfer bar thing going on? The pistol shoots great, but this is a little odd. Aside from an H&K P9S I had a hundred years ago and don't remember much, this is the only DA/SA pistol I've had.
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Sounds to me like the sear is moving just enough to keep the safety from engaging - but not enough to release the hammer.
The sear has a forward facing "arm" on it that the cam on the left side safety shaft rotates under when the safety is moved to the SAFE position. Yours seems to have a real good/real close fit.
On a pistol with a large/deep cut in the hammer for the sear you can afford more "slop" in the fit between the arm on the sear and the cam on the safety shaft. On a pistol with a very shallow cut in the hammer (those with a very nice, crisp trigger pull) you need a very precise/close fit between the arm on the sear and the cam on the safety shaft. It takes less movement of the sear to release the hammer on a pistol like that and you don't want the trigger to release the hammer when the pistol is on safe.
While I can't remember ever trying to put the pistol on safe after NOT pulling the trigger all the way I do know that if I start a trigger pull and feel some movement and don't fire the pistol I will reach my thumb up and move the hammer to the rear before letting the hammer back down to it's resting position - so my next trigger pull is the same as the previous ones. Seems to work in my head, that way.
I can't say whether your pistol is "okay" or "not okay." I can say that I wouldn't be happy with a pistol that wouldn't go on safe without first manually moving the hammer. Seems like yours needs a little work to get that trigger/sear/hammer fit improved.
I'm not a gunsmith, I'm not a competitive shooter, I'm just a guy who likes a nice crisp trigger.
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Thanks, M1A4ME. Where does one send the pistol in these situations, out for customization or back to the factory? If this were an American semi custom 1911, I think I'd send it back.
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CZ will almost certainly take it back, if you choose. Their customer service is great. Cajun Gun Works or CZ Custom seem to be top choices for custom work. There is something to the safety I read, it's in the manual talking about not to engage it or bad things could happen when...I think the hammer is down..or you try to pull the trigger in this condition? I don't remember...maybe some research will help ya more.
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czecherated,
Don't know how much help I can be. Mine has so little creep that as soon as I try to duplicate your issue, the gun goes off.
I did get the trigger to release after creep once (maybe 1/32"). The safety hung for an instant, then engaged.
What CrazyDave mentioned is not to engage the safety when the hammer is on the Safety Notch.
Maybe your gun is OK, but it won't hurt to check with CZ CS.
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I am interested to hear how this plays out once the pistol is well broken in. I have experienced what OP is talking about, in my cases the Trigger Return Spring moves the trigger forward and the hammer back to the full cocked position when i release the trigger in SA. My examples are 75 variants, i have no personal experience with the Shadow 2.
I assume that once the surface of the sear and hammer hooks smooth out that it may take care of its self. I am interested to hear what you find out OP. We all learn from this stuff.
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Hi Folks,
I'm not talking about engaging the safety on half cock - which I'm not supposed to do. This is firing single action. The trigger does creep more than I would expect from an out-of-the-box competition gun, but I will put a few hundred more rounds through it, watching carefully so there are no mishaps. I find that rushing to rework a gun can be a mistake. The weights of double action and single action pull here seem fine - maybe double could be a little lighter but is does not affect me much. My 1911's are between 2.2 and 3.5 lbs, so the single action weight here is all right - and the creep is not so awful, it's just the business of not being able to reengage the safety w/o re cocking the hammer. And it's not really recocking the hammer because it is in position to fire, it just needs to be pushed all the way back again into the groove on the tang.
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Hiya czecherated and thanks for your thread. I'd be most interested in you having a mate close up vid you,since you should be able to duplicate it without the gun being loaded. As the way I picture your issue dosent make sense to me. M1A4ME not being a do it yourselfer made my brain hurt like when I studied quadratic equations.
Being a DA/SA and you describing the creep in your SA,is that right? And the creep is what you are feeling when you begin your trigger prep after a shot in SA and before the next shot? This suggests that you are taking your finger off the trigger instead of letting up pressure until you feel the reset. Is that a fair assumption?
If you are backing out of a shot that you began in SA, you safety should engage, thats cocked and locked as we know it. If you back out of a DA shot,it should still allow safety engagement if the trigger returned to full DA pull or half cock of the hammer. Only way I can see the safety not engage is because you have begin to apply some lbs of pressure on the trigger. Vid please. Cz -usa would fix a mechanical issue no doubt but not hearing/seeing the problem.
I'm all for safely backing out of a shot if the target is identified as friendly before the hammer drops, or you don't get a clean bullseye lined up. Be well.
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Yes, backing out of a shot that I began in single action. Correct, I am not using reset. I am firing single shots and, if I need to rebuild my stance or my arm has been up too long, I engage the safety, rest a second and rebuild the position finding my natural point of aim. That is correct, have applied pressure and stopped. Try to engage the safety and cannot unless I first put the hammer back. I can try to do a video, not a smart phone user, but will get around to it.
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My CZ75 Compact (converted to look/operate like a CZ85 - has ambidextrous thumb safeties, ambidextrous slide release levers and a spur hammer).
The red arrow points at the cam lobe on the left side safety lever shaft. The green arrow points at the forward arm on the sear.
When you move the safety to the safe position, the cam rotates clockwise to move under the forward arm on the sear - which keeps the trigger bar from moving the sear and releasing the hammer to fire the pistol.
When you move the safety to the fire position, the cam rotates counter clockwise to move out from under the forward are on the sear - that allows the trigger bar to move the sear and release the hammer to fire the pistol.
(https://i.imgur.com/gwkMfgrl.jpg)
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I can try to create the condition with the slide off, if it does not risk damaging anything.
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My Shadow 2 is fairly new and I encountered the same problem as you described.
I recognize the safety problem but instead of trying to put it on safe I "recock" it without touching the trigger.
For me the trigger creeping was a reason to change the sear and hammer within 1 week of owning the gun.
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I can see, if all the parts meet/match up just "wrong", a situation where what you have occurring.
1. full cock notch and sear engagement allows a little more sear movement than you might want/need
2. sear forward arm and safety engagement surfaces result in the cam on the safety lever being just tall enough not to rotate back under the forward arm on the sear after a small amount of sear movement - but I can't say which surface (bottom of sear forward arm surface or top of the cam on the safety shaft is the culprit.
I'll bet CZ can straighten it out real quick.
The more I see/read this thread the more I wonder about checking a couple of mine. I mostly shoot/carry the Omega models these days but I do have a couple/three of the order style safety CZ's.
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The interface between the safety protrusion and the sear safety leg is very tight. When you are progressing through the creep pulling the trigger, you are rotating the sear (and sear safety leg) into an interference with the safety protrusion. I imagine you could force the safety on but it might not be good for the sear edge rubbing backwards on the hammer hook. The easier solution is to get a competition hammer that has less creep. You'll be surprised how much crisper the trigger break is (literally).
I don't like to drop the hammer without the slide installed on the frame. It's happened by accident a time or two but I wouldn't do it regularly. If you want to investigate the trigger action with the slide off, then I'd put a small rag or a foam ear plug in the hammer channel to dampen the impact.
Cheers,
Toby
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Just tried two of mine.
The pistol that is in the picture I posted earlier, a CZ75 Compact I converted to use CZ85 ambidextrous controls and installed a CZ spur hammer in. The trigger pull is very crisp on this one, not light at 3 lbs., but crisp enough you have to prove it to yourself with the trigger pull ga. that it really is as much as 3 lbs. The only CZ I have with a nicer trigger is the CZ Tactical Sport .40 and it's SAO. This pistol has the factory sear (it's my horror story about the work required to make a factory sear fit/work with a nice hammer).
Anyway, I can't feel this one move the trigger (after the firing pin block is up) except every now and then, but if I hold it just right in the light I can usually detect a small amount of hammer movement from the light on the side of the hammer. If I manage to pull the trigger back enough to see that little bit of movement, and then let up on the trigger it is easy to move the safety from the FIRE positioin to the SAFE position. No catch, bump felt any differently than if moved from SAFE to FIRE and back to SAFE.
Second pistol is my new CZ75B .40. Totally stock, never fired (by me). I can see the hammer move back quite a ways on this one as I pull the trigger and it's easy to stop before that hammer falls. If I let up on the trigger it's also easy to move the safety back to the SAFE position.
I'm an impatient sort of guy. If it was mine I'd fix it myself.
You might ought to call CZ USA and tell them what it's doing. They shouldn't expect you to have to thumb cock it back just to put it on safe. I've only had to send one pistol back for work (front night sight on a P01) and I had the pistol back in 10 days even with FEDEX "losing" it for 3 days in a warehouse up in Maryland. Give'em a call and explain your issue.
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CZ is a GREAT and historic manufacturer, heir to the old Imperial Austrian works at Brunn (now Brno). These are beautiful pistols, way better than the competition at the same price with super design features like full length rails holding the slide inside the frame, top quality hammer forger barrel, no short cuts (well, OK, no drop forging the frame anymore, but I don't think that matters). I've had to send all kinds of guns back to work out kinks and it's part of the process. Even with computer numeric controlled manufacturing, one is not going to get a gun that shoots like these without a few hiccups. I'll call CZ. Adrian, do you really still want me to post the video?
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I would just get the CGW hammer and adjustable sear, solves the creep issue for sure and likely the safety engagement as well. The sear has a set screw in the safety engagement arm for a perfect adjustment.
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GMP, yes, that's what I've been thinking, send it out to CGW, but, on the other hand, I shoot the gun well and properly functioning in stock form would be OK too.
Here's a 29-second video demonstrating the issue with the trigger/sear/safety/hammer: https://imgur.com/8c4Y8ME (https://imgur.com/8c4Y8ME)
I can't say I like having to work the hammer to get the safety to engage. Flipping the safety up before further handling is safest. I would not handle the gun the way shown in the video. Rather, I use my off hand to work the hammer and then engage the safety, but it's still sub optimal.
I don't think this is an issue that will work itself out after after 500 rounds.
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czecherated,
We responded to your video and identified the issue, and the fix. We have seen this before. You can have CZ-USA take care of it under warranty on their dime, or take the alternative suggestions we recommended.
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czecherated,
We responded to your video and identified the issue, and the fix. We have seen this before. You can have CZ-USA take care of it under warranty on their dime, or take the alternative suggestions we recommended.
can you summarize the comments here?
thanks
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^^I can tell by the sound of schmekys post that the culprit was sear mites! They are attracted to the tasty sear meats you see. :D
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Schmeky,
Thank you for your prompt diagnosis, which I share with the forum here:
"You have creep in the SA, and when you lightly press the trigger in SA, the sear is riding up on the hammer hooks and not re-seating itself when you back off the trigger. For all practical purposes it should re-seat. The sear is "tipped" just enough to block the manual safety (since the sear did not re-seat as I previously mentioned)."
As he says, he's seen it before.
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Hiya and thanks for sharing the vid and that you found a fix. And thanks to David and company. Be well.
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CZ customer service was very prompt and asked me to send the gun back. I want to work with the Shadow 2 in stock configuration for a while before installing custom parts because the gun shoots really well for me as it is. The stock gun might be best if I'm going to start on some kind of move and shoot pistol discipline. I find lightening S/A trigger pull - great attribute in a target gun - and shortening reset can sometimes make the pistol harder to control when drawing and shooting quickly. So until I reach a skill level, I might just keep it stock, fire a couple of thousand rounds and try shooting some USPSA matches, before sending it off to CGW.