The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: plumber4444 on May 17, 2019, 03:09:02 PM
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More and more I am reading from people who are looking for advice on a 9 mm or semi auto and specifically say they are not looking for a double action. I?m assuming it?s the younger generation that doesn?t know the history and doesn?t want a double action auto because it?s the best of both worlds and I can?t possibly see any reason that anybody would not want one? Keep it in the half cocked position and there is just no reason not to want to own one.
Back in my day the argument was always revolver versus semi automatic and one of the biggest debates in the world was the fact that you had to cock first or carry cocked and locked and that extra movement could be a matter of life or death and involve a thought process a revolver did not. Nothing has changed when it comes to that and it still applies today.
When double action semi?s came out it was the ?thing? and everybody but everybody wanted one. Why now so many people frown over them is beyond my wildest imagination. Any input would be nice!
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The common mindset I believe is the simplicity of having 1 trigger pull weight and not having to train for 2 different trigger pulls. Especially because the first round is the heavy pull with a da/sa. Training I believe is more important than what gun you pick in my opinion but that seems to be the general reasoning
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Are you referring to DAO, or DA/SA?
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I didn't start shooting until I turned 60 (not to long ago) . Wanted to learn for self defense since some crazy things were going on in the area . Started off with a striker fire SD9VE . Then upgraded to a M&P 9 2.0 , then tried a CZ P-09 poly framed hammer , and finally a SP-01 tactical . All my S&W are gone . Personally I like the metal hammer style so easy on felt recoil . My only complaint are the sights , wish they had HD colored sights for the 75 series . I did get a Glock 34 and kept that for striker fire plinking . Easy to get parts and easy to change if need be . M&P was good just much easier to work on glocks .
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Are you referring to DAO, or DA/SA?
DAO was a typo
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I started out on DA revolvers and learned to shoot them very well. The transition to DA/SA semi autos was a learning curve but not an insurmountable one. After all this time and countless thousands of rounds of practice hammer fired guns are just natural to me.
I've taken a few misguided trips into striker land only to find myself cutting the trip short and heading back to the hammerville in a hurry.
I think people fall for what's trendy in firearms just like any other product on the market.
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...I don't know that people so much "shy away" from DA/SA pistols as much as are "steered" in the DA/striker direction. There's fewer things to worry about, I think the typical LGS sales guy/girl will suggest something Glockesque to a new shooter for the ease of operation and maintenance.
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I like them all. It's a sickness. :o
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some people said shy away from double action because they're too wimpy for the first pull of the trigger.😉
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I missed the safety on my Colt Combat Commander back in 82, or was it 83? Whipped it out of the holster, brought it up to the target and squeezed the trigger and got...nothing. Squeezed again....nothing. Looked at the pistol and saw the safety was still on SAFE. Never had missed that little (stock, left side) safety before. No internet in those days. Got out a magazine, made a phone call and ordered a set of extended ambidextrous safeties.
Never missed a safety again between coming out of the holster and lining the sights up on the target.
Just don't have the need for a DA trigger pull. Cocked and locked was working long before I got my first 1911 in 1978. Still works. Like my old 1917 made Colt 1911. Works just as well today as it did during WW1. As nice as mine looks I don't think it stayed in the US Army through WW2.
That's one reason I like the P07/P09. Ambidextrous thumb safeties. I converted my CZ75 Compact to have/use ambidextrous thumb safeties. I like my CZ85 and my CZ75B .40 (I was happy to find out the .40's come with ambidextrous thumb safeties.) I bout that big old XD 5" Tactical .45 acp because it had ambidextrous thumb safeties. I just bought an M&P 5" 9MM in FDE - with - you guessed it, ambidextrous thumb safeties.
I read/see that argument about forgetting the safety. I wonder if there are people who forget to load their pistol before they walk out the door. If there are people who forget to pull the pistol out of the holster if they need to. If they forget to line the sights up on the target. If they forget where the trigger is, or which finger to use to pull the trigger. Or how to change magazines if things get that bad. What else do they forget? Do they forget to change gears when driving? Or to hit the brakes when they need to?
I used to live in WV (miss the hell out of it, too) and we hunted ruffed grouse in/along the old strip mines and tram grades (small rail roads used when they cut the virgin timber back in the early 1900's). If you forget the safety on a grouse you won't get a shot. They are gone that quick. I heard there were people who hunted with their shotgun safety in the FIRE position. We chose not to go to the woods with people like that. People who don't practice/handle their firearms enough to use them instinctively might not instinctively keep them pointed in a safe direction either.
I know a guy who shot himself in the left hand/forearm with a CZ he'd just unloaded. He forgot not to point the muzzle at himself and he forgot not to pull the trigger and he forgot not to insure the chamber was empty after removing the magazine. Is that why they put magazine safeties on some semi auto pistols?
While all the above is true, use whatever you feel comfortable with using. As long as you can hit what you aim at and you know when to aim it and pull the trigger, you can ride with me anytime. You don't have to carry the same caliber/brand of gun I carry.
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I used to live in WV (miss the hell out of it, too) and we hunted ruffed grouse in/along the old strip mines and tram grades (small rail roads used when they cut the virgin timber back in the early 1900's). If you forget the safety on a grouse you won't get a shot. They are gone that quick.
This made me chuckle and reminded me of a few Kansas and Dakota hunts in years past. Not much is funnier than watching a pheasant hunter forgetting to flip the safety off as a ringneck heads downrange unscathed.
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I love my DA/SA handguns.
I have striker fire guns.
I have DAO guns.
I carry DA/SA - and generally the decocker variants.
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I love my DA/SA handguns.
I have striker fire guns.
I have DAO guns.
I carry DA/SA - and generally the decocker variants.
You rebel!!! ;D
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What comes to mind is dealing with an external safety or a decocker. A lot of people like the simplicity of DAO or Striker fired handguns.
Another negative is a heavy double Action Trigger. A high number of people cannot shoot them very well.
A good number of people don?t like external safeties. They don?t like cocked and locked. It takes extra training and experience to shoot from that condition.
Most do not like steel, alloy, or aluminum frame pistols, though there are some SA/DA varieties such as the HK 45 Compact or CZ.
I have revolvers in SA/DA, Glocks Which are strike fired, revolvers in DAO, 1911s and the FN 5.7 which are SAO, CZ which are SA/DA.
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what it comes down to is that there is no one answer and will be no one answer.
people are not wired the same or think the same. hasnt happened before, wont happen now and wont happen in the future.
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To me it comes down to the simple analogy, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. I think there seems to be a misconception for some reason, even though obviously there should not be, with novices that the first trigger pull HAS to be in double action.
Anytime I?m even coming close to a situation that I even vaguely think I need to pull out my gun on, I cock it first. Keep my finger on the outside of the tirgger guard. My point is there?s nothing stopping anybody from cocking it first and from there every shot forever becomes a single action trigger pull.
The advantage of a double action is for those unforseen situations, where it?s the middle of the night and you?re sleeping and some guy barges in your bedroom door and you have to grab the gun half-asleep!!! Yes, you want to be able to just pull the trigger with absolutely no thought process so to me again it?s the best of both worlds and I just don?t see a negative???
You don?t like the heavy double action pull? Fine, cock the bleep thing first and make it that semi auto gun that you so desire and love LOL. :)
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I like them all. It's a sickness. :o
LMAO!!!! Too funny :)
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I used to live in WV (miss the hell out of it, too) and we hunted ruffed grouse in/along the old strip mines and tram grades (small rail roads used when they cut the virgin timber back in the early 1900's). If you forget the safety on a grouse you won't get a shot. They are gone that quick.
This made me chuckle and reminded me of a few Kansas and Dakota hunts in years past. Not much is funnier than watching a pheasant hunter forgetting to flip the safety off as a ringneck heads downrange unscathed.
Um....yeah....my dog fails to find the humor in that, being on the receiving end of that over-the-shoulder ?WTF? look a couple of times myself. Just saying.....
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I'm an armed security guard, and my company frowns on DA/SA pistols. They allow them, but prefer that we carry striker fire.
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Suppose thumbing a safety off can be tough for someone challenged.
All my semi-autos start out in Condition 1, all of them...... no learning/training curve between them. Obviously I wont own a DAO.
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If the first pull being ?heavy? is such an issue.....
Is it any more difficult to thumb the hammer back as you raise it to shoot than it is to thumb a safety off?
It?s all about preference.
We are all conversing that we like different shades of the same color.
Personally, I believe Ferrari Red is superior to Flame Red, which of course is better than Candy Apple Red. Whaddya mean you like green?
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Personally I learned to shoot on a big old heavy DA revolver. Growing up and moving to semi autos anytime I shot my buddies? poly strikers they just felt less substantial. I love the active nature of DA/SA, just find having two modes of trigger pull to work on, throwing decocking into the mix to be a lot more fun. Full metal frames just feel better in my hands. I look at it like martial arts. A lot of folks will argue what?s more effective in general, but at the end of the day if you enjoy a variation (that?s still viable from a practical standpoint of course) and that enjoyment gets you to train more often and with more conviction, that?s what?s best for YOU.
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Train a lot with what you got. Do some competitions and see if your muscle memory is in place. Then train some more and it won't matter which you chose as long as it works.
Good idea to mainly shoot the same thing over and over. IE I sold 2 P01's and a PCR to get back to safety on everything I shoot regularly. Did a Canik 55 for carry as CZ doesn't make a P01 with a safety.
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I'm an armed security guard, and my company frowns on DA/SA pistols. They allow them, but prefer that we carry striker fire.
I really think this applies when I see people restrict their searches to one action or another.
I?ve seen three safety managers where I work, with three different opinions. The current one really likes striker fired. I was carrying a Browning I could shoot well and rely on when he came on board. There was no end to the hoops I needed to jump through to keep carrying it and wound up switching.
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I used to live in WV (miss the hell out of it, too) and we hunted ruffed grouse in/along the old strip mines and tram grades (small rail roads used when they cut the virgin timber back in the early 1900's). If you forget the safety on a grouse you won't get a shot. They are gone that quick.
This made me chuckle and reminded me of a few Kansas and Dakota hunts in years past. Not much is funnier than watching a pheasant hunter forgetting to flip the safety off as a ringneck heads downrange unscathed.
Um....yeah....my dog fails to find the humor in that, being on the receiving end of that over-the-shoulder ?WTF? look a couple of times myself. Just saying.....
Been there, done that, and got the same dirty looks from my dog. The worst is when we're rabbit hunting and I miss, my Beagle will usually bring the rabbit by one more time. If I miss a second time she sits down and stares at me with the you go get it, I'm tired look.
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I had Glocks 19 2nd Gen,23 3rd Gen, Taurus PT145, XD 5inch tactical 9mm, got rid of them all. did not like the idea of the striker in the firing position when carried. Love my CZ p07. just recently purchased SCCY cpx2. DAO for summer carry this gun is a good shooter.
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Mastering a traditional DA/SA semi auto takes a good amount of practice. A lot of people today buy a gun for home defense and it stays in the nightstand drawer. Gets shot maybe twice a year. They aren't "shooters" like most people here. They aren't willing to acquire the skill it takes and just get a striker fire.
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My laser insert round and lots of indoor practice has made it so the first shot in DA is going to be just as accurate as the next ones are. Of course shooting for real every week probably doesn?t hurt much either.
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For your consideration
https://youtu.be/daSYE1PughE
https://youtu.be/IP8F_cwotM8
https://youtu.be/bU4v5i5c42k
I do rotate between DA/SA and Striker Fired Pistols, and one of the latter could be considered DAO.
Also, I get some practice in, before carrying something different.
I like them all. It's a sickness. :o
Same here! ;D
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Have owned SA, DA/SA, DAO. My little brain prefers the consistent pull of the striker fired safe actions (Glock, etc.) as I get older ;)
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I'm an armed security guard, and my company frowns on DA/SA pistols. They allow them, but prefer that we carry striker fire.
THERE IS YOUR ANSWER. And they probably can't explain why. Long/heavy DA pull could save an innocent life. Concealed Carry and ooops don't go well together.
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I'm an armed security guard, and my company frowns on DA/SA pistols. They allow them, but prefer that we carry striker fire.
THERE IS YOUR ANSWER. And they probably can't explain why. Long/heavy DA pull could save an innocent life. Concealed Carry and ooops don't go well together.
I'd be willing to bet it's more like the insurance companies frown upon double action single action.
If the insurance companies and or companies knew what they were talking about might be a different story most of them don't have a clue.
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I think there is a bad rumor going on out there that the first DA pull is horrible and can't be a good thing. Striker guns are simple for the new gun owner to pull out of a box and start pumping round down range. For my self I had a bad taste of DA/SA with worn out Beretta M9 pistols I encountered in the Army. I never gave them a thought when it came time to start buying personal guns.
The trigger reach of that first DA pull is also an issue for many people. I am actually starting to convert to nothing but DA/SA for carry / duty use.
This video from Chris makes good points:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daSYE1PughE
Then there is Ernest Langdon, who I believe is a pioneer in the resurection of people chosing DA/SA over striker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m42IJIreRoc
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Thanks for posting the Langdon video. Makes excellent sense!
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I'm an armed security guard, and my company frowns on DA/SA pistols. They allow them, but prefer that we carry striker fire.
THERE IS YOUR ANSWER. And they probably can't explain why. Long/heavy DA pull could save an innocent life. Concealed Carry and ooops don't go well together.
I'd be willing to bet it's more like the insurance companies frown upon double action single action.
If the insurance companies and or companies knew what they were talking about might be a different story most of them don't have a clue.
My employers are a bunch of hypocrites! We did third quarter qualifying yesterday and one them used a Sig P229 DA/SA
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I took my brand new SP-01 TAC to a shooting class and the instructor picked up my gun and used it as an example of an older style pistol. Fair enough, it is. He then pointed to someone in the back that had a “hell of a pistol”. I looking back there and saw a black G19. I took my PCR to another shooting class a few months later and the instructor walked by someone and stopped in his tracks and said “that is a phenomenal firearm!”. I craned my neck to see what is was and it was an OD green G19. Sheep.
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Obviously a block guy. :o
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I took my brand new SP-01 TAC to a shooting class and the instructor picked up my gun and used it as an example of an older style pistol. Fair enough, it is. He then pointed to someone in the back that had a “hell of a pistol”. I looking back there and saw a black G19. I took my PCR to another shooting class a few months later and the instructor walked by someone and stopped in his tracks and said “that is a phenomenal firearm!”. I craned my neck to see what is was and it was an OD green G19. Sheep.
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Some people just don't realize you can shoot patterns with a shotgun, too.
Pistols (and rifles) are what you use for groups.
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Meh, everybody is free to make their own choices.
I am just grateful to have all the choices we have!
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Two different guys from two different ranges ,but, yeah.
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Meh, everybody is free to make their own choices.
I am just grateful to have all the choices we have!
Amen
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I always look to the analogy of learning to drive an automatic (striker fired) vs. a manual transmission (DA/SA).
If you need to learn to drive a car as quickly as possible to pass a driving test, than learning on an automatic transmission will be the most efficient option.
However, (and I say this as someone who learned to drive on a manual) if you invest the time, I think learning manual transmission makes you a more effective and attentive driver. At least you can always transition to an automatic transmission easily. The opposite is not true. I own a P10C and have no problems shooting it or my DA/SA pistols.
Case in point, l learned to shoot on Glocks and I shot them with basic proficiency. However, when it came time to purchase a pistol of my own I opted for a CZ 75 BD (not my last DA/SA CZ). The de-cocker was kind of important here since I could more easily practice those two trigger pulls.
I did this because I knew that basic proficiency was not enough and I wanted to get better. If you want to be able to quickly and accurately get off the first shot in DA drawn from a holster and transition the following shot to SA, it takes more training, dry fire, and live fire trigger time. The thing is, regardless of the pistol, you can never get enough of any of these and we all probably don't (I know I could do more).
Now I'm no pistol badass or expert marksman however; I've noticed over time, that I am a more proficient shooter than my friends and acquaintances who started pistol shooting at the same time as me. They all opted for striker-fired and they thought "That's pretty good. In fact, that's good enough." and thus went to the range less often. Over time that really begins to tell.
Lastly, I remember one of said acquaintances shooting my SP-01 Tactical at the range a few months ago. He loaded the mag, racked the slide, noticed at the cocked hammer, pointed to it, and asked "what about this?" of course I told him to just shoot it in single action since it was from the bench and not holstered.
I never want to be that guy. Similar to pointing at the clutch pedal on a manual car and asking "what's this thing do?"
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It's sort of like a conversation I had with my Brother in Law, Who was extolling the virtues of striker fired pistols. When he commented on how antiquated the hammer was, I just replied " Strikers are just fine ! So is the missionary position" ! I wound up LMAO because he thought I was referring to firing line stance !
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When he commented on how antiquated the hammer was
Actually, the very first 9x19mm handgun, the P'08 Luger Pistol, was striker fired.
https://youtu.be/8DBYV6s1lvo
Funny how it was replaced by a Pistol with a Hammer, the Walther P-38.
Here are mine.
(http://i.imgur.com/LdK8DF7l.jpg) (https://imgur.com/LdK8DF7)
Walther AC44 P38
S/42 Mauser 1936 Luger
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I think the answer to this question, and maybe it was already addressed, applies mostly to DAO vs striker fired. Most striker fired handguns have better triggers than DAO hammer fired handguns, but not as good of triggers than their DA/SA hammer fired counterparts in SA.
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I think the answer to this question, and maybe it was already addressed, applies mostly to DAO vs striker fired. Most striker fired handguns have better triggers than DAO hammer fired handguns, but not as good of triggers than their DA/SA hammer fired counterparts in SA.
I’ll be the oddball but, trigger pull length notwithstanding, I’ll take my DAO P-07 (6.5#), DAO P-09 MHS (7#), CZ100 (8.5#), and/or PX4 D (7#) over pretty much any striker fire handgun. Heck, I even have the 8# NY1 Spring and “Minus” Connector combo in my Glock 19 to make it more “DAO” for me. With exception of my old competition rifle, I actually like having noticeable resistance throughout the entire trigger pull on my pistols.
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That looooooong reset is like rowing gears in an old truck.