The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Center fire Rifles => Topic started by: Super on June 04, 2019, 10:25:29 AM
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Hello everybody a norwegian here. I have a Cz 550 american in 6,5x55, and now I want to buy a CZ527 American in 223 rem.
I am mostly going too shoot bullets from 40-60 gr I think. Will the newer 527 with the 1:9 twist give good enough accuracy with those bullets ( good enough for me is about 3 shots, 15-20 mm at 100 m) I am handloading all my ammo and have a super Steady rest too shot from. Bullets I have planen too shot is 50 gr V Max, 55 gr sierra game king and the 52 gr sierra MK. I will try these bullets first. Iff you think I am better off with the 1:12 twist I have to search the used marked for a 527 american with the 1:12. But there is not many around. New or used I am going to have a good gunsmith glass bed the rifle. I am also using a good scoope with a thin cross hair, a 3-12x40 ore something like that.
( 15-20 mm at 100 m is about the same as 0.6-0,8 inch at 109 yards, 3 shots center to center at the bullets Hole) The intended use for the rifle is goose and crow hunting, plinking and some shooting competition, and For me ? only accurate guns are interesting ?
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From my experience with .223/5.56 ARs, I can say with confidence that you would be better served with a 1:9 twist rate over a 1:12. Happy shooting!
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The 60 grain bullet is about the top end weight for a 1-12 twist. The 1-9 twist limits out around 69 grains. This can vary a little bit but not to much. With the three bullets you have listed you would be fine (and possibly a little better off) at 1-12. Currently CZ is only offering the 223 Remington with a 1-9 twist. If you want an American 527 with a 1-12 twist you'll have to find an older one. My 527 Varmint is a 2014 or 2015 production with a 1-9 twist barrel. I have not had any problems with the Hornady 50 grain V Max bullets in this rifle. If you think that you might be interested at a later date to try 60 plus grain bullets go 1-9. If your sure you wont want to shoot bullets heavier than 60ish grain then looking for an older version with a 1-12 twist would serve you fine.
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Ok, actually I am most keen on a new one. But I wonder what kind of accuracy I can expect from a 527, 223 with hand loaded amunition.
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I've read (on the internet) that "over stabilization" of a lighter bullet due to the faster twist barrels can have a negative affect on accuracy.
The theory, if I remember it correctly, is that the higher rpm the bullet gets from the faster twist has a negative effect on any bullets that aren't "perfect". Perfect? It meant a bullet that wasn't concentric with jacket being exactly the same thickness all the way around and lead core that was round and centered in a perfect jacket. The idea was increased bullet rpm would result in increased wobble/larger groups.
I can, from personal experience, tell you that some "varmint" bullets should not be shot in a 1 in 9" twist barrel (or 1 in 8" or 1 in 7"). I have seen my reloads that worked great in my Rem. M700 varmint special (1 turn in 12") not even make it to 100 yds. in the Mini 14 (1 turn in 9"). You could see a vapor trail spiraling behind the bullet all the way to the target. Sometimes the vapor trail would stop short of the 100 yd. target (the shooter wouldn't see it but the spotter would) and I'd only have 4 bullets on the target, not 5, or 8 or 9, not 10. Sierra and Hornady both (used to anyway) make thin/fragile jacketed bullets for varmint hunting. The idea was that the thin jacketed bullets would work better in the older, slower velocity rifles like the .22 Hornet by increasing expansion at lower velocities. The reloading manuals would state, in the data section for those bullets, they should not be shot in a 1 turn in 9" barrel (in the early 80's 1 turn in 9" was very new in the civilian world).
With 45 and 50 grain bullets my best groups have been in the 1 turn in 12" barreled Rem. M700 .223 varmint special and a special AR15 I built with a 1 turn in 10" bull barrel/free floated/24" barrel. This one is downright scary up close with H335 and 50 grain Hornady varmint bullets (flat based spitzer).
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(https://i.imgur.com/XTEfJbi.jpg?2)
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That's one more thing, it's not just bullet weight, it's bullet velocity and bearing surface, too.
My buddy's .222 Remington had a 1 turn in 14" barrel. Same bullets I shot in my .223 Rem. but 150 to 200 fps slower. Seems like the early .223 barrels (when 55 grain was the max bullet weight made) were also 1 turn in 14".
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Super, It's not really possible to predict how your future rifle will group. The two best shooting 527's I have (a 17 Hornet and a 204 Ruger both Varmint models) will shoot 5/16 inch five shot groups. These two rifles get tailored neck sized handloads worked up just for them. The worst 527 I have a 7.62X39mm carbine shoots 2 1/2 inch groups at it's best. This rifles a problem child it hates everything, surplus ammo, steel cased, brass cased or handloads. My 223 Remington 527 Varmint with 1-9 twist shoots 3/4 inch with Hornady 50 grain V Max reloads that are full length resized so they function in 5 other 223 firearms. No special care or extra steps are taken for this rifle and it's the only one with a 1-9 twist instead of 1-12. I would hope that a new CZ 527 American would shoot 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch groups at the worst and potentially quite a bit better. There is a bit of the "luck of the draw " when you buy a new rifle. You can tell if you've won the wood lottery by looking but you cant tell how it will group until you fire it. M1A4ME, the older 22 Hornets (and current CZ Hornets) have 1-16 twist and limit out around 52 grains. Bullet design is also a factor when the twist is marginal. If you have two bullets, one basically a cylinder and the other an long ultra streamlined plastic tipped boat tail wonder, when the twist will only just barely stabilize the cylinder it wont be quick enough to stabilize the longer more streamlined bullet. If you use the same twist but push the bullet faster (increase the RPM's) then it can stabilize a longer bullet.
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1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch at 100 yards, thats about 31 mm to 38 mm and thats at 100 yards it gets even worse at 100 m. Hmm I am going to glas bed the rifle but I dont know iff thats good enough for me anyway. I know that you say at worst and potentially quite a bit better but annyhow, hmm.
I know this is a CZ forum and you my not like this but I also consider the tikka t3x lite in 223, but I cant make upp my mind.
I has always been hard for me too decide to something.
The tikka is a completely different rifle, and iff I only knew that a new CZ 527 would bee a good shoother I pick that rifle, the tikka has abselotely no spirit, but is known for good accuracy.
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It does not really matter what make of rifle you purchase, my point was there is an element of gambling when you purchase a new rifle. Every manufacture makes the occasional lemon. The flip side of that coin is every manufacture makes the occasional gem. If your seriously worried about it look not only at the accuracy reputation but at the companies service/warranty reputation. Even then you dont know how any unfamiliar rifles going to group until you shoot it. When gambling in this fashion I buy the rifle or what ever other thing I'm purchasing and buy the item I want.
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The 1-9 seems like a lot more versatile choice but I've got an older 1-12 that really likes the 40 gr V-max and the Sierra 63 gr SMP which has a relatively short bearing surface. From what I've read there are a lot of 1-12 223s that like the SMP.
At 100 yds the SMPs point of impact is 4" higher than the 40 V-Max but I'd think the V-Max catches up with it further out.
No question the Tikkas are accurate right out of the box. I owned one a few years ago and it was every bit as accurate as they say, right out of the box with a number of loads but if you want a walnut/blue steel rifle get the CZ. Mine shoots the the above loads as accurately as anything the Tikka shot and I'm using a 2-7 scope with the CZ. The Tikka had a 3-9.
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If I am quite honest I preferably want a new CZ 527 American, but my sense tell me, ?go for the tikka, its most likely the most accurate gun, even iff you glass bed the CZ?
But for my hunting the CZ 527 will most likely do the job
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If I was in the market for a long-range acorn buster, I'd start by looking at the Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor. https://www.ruger.com/products/precisionRifle/specSheets/18046.html. Reported 1/2 MOA potential. https://www.range365.com/new-gun-test-ruger-precision-rifle/
If .223 was a requirement, I'd build an AR, centered around a Krieger barrel. https://kriegerbarrels.com/ with options like this:
AR15
Caliber:
.22 Cal
Steel:
Stainless Steel
Contour Type:
VARMATCH
Overall Length:
24 IN
Muzz. Diam.:
0.920 IN
Twist Rate:
1-9 Inches
Bore Dia:
0.218 Inches
Groove Dia:
0.224 Inches
Fit / Chamber:
Finish Chamber & Crown
Chamber Type:
.223 WYLDE
Services:
Fluting
Parts:
Barrel Extension
But, those may not be options in your neck of the woods.
Those are daydreams. But I have built several ARs over the years, including an A3 format and a heavy barrel A2 format, both of which can shoot 1 MOA all day long with the right loads. Neither have anything as pricey and high quality as a Krieger barrel.
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I have a newer 527 fs 223 with a 1 in 9 twist. I have had great success using everything from 40 grain to 69 grain bullets in it. I would not worry about light bullets out of a 1 in 9 twist barrel. It's the rotational speed of the light bullets that will deform or blow up the bullet. An extreme example would be a 40 grain bullet fired at 4500 fps out of a 1 in 8 twist barrel. You would have to use a thick jacketed bullet. In a 223,no worries.
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Just plain old bolt rifles for me, AR and semi automatic is not my cup of tea. Dont know if its even legal in Norway.
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Made upp my mind this evening.
I go for the CZ 527 in 223 rem. Not sure new or used, see what I can find second hand first.
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Whats the main variation between the varmint and the american model in .223 (I am aware of the weight).
From my point of view the varmint will most likely be more accurate, I dont know if heated barrels are a problem for .223 its seldom over 70 fahrenheit when I am shooting.
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Heated barrels?
How many varmints stand still long enough for you to shoot enough shots to heat the barrel up? I did, once, have three groundhogs ranged out across a field in front of me. Time of the year changed their behavior so that when I got the first one the other two stood up to look around vs. the usual "drop and run for the nearest hole." Got #2 and #3 just stood their looking around. Got #3 and then walked out to pick them up. Never happened before (to me) and never did again.
If you have one that starts moving POI in a "direction" as it heats up, look for barrel contact in the stock channel.
Good luck with your search.
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Heated barrels its at the shooting range not at the hunting situasions.
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Super:
I have a CZ 527 in .223 rem with the 1/12 twist barrel. Beautiful wood, great trigger, wonderful little rifle, however it took quite a bit to make it shoot straight. I had a heck of a time getting under 1.5" (3 shot) at 100 yards. I pillar bedded and glass bedded the action, and tried every bullet/combination I had on hand. The secret was light bullets. It shoots nosler 40gr BT under max load of benchmark under 1/2". This past weekend I got 50 gr nosler BT and 26.0 gr Benchmark into clover leafs. 77 gr will keyhole at 100 yards. I'll try to send some pics when I get home
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My .223 is 1:12 and I was a little angry when I found out it was NOS and had the "old" twist rate. However it is superbly accurate with 50-55gr projectiles that fit my purpose so I've come around and love it.
If it was 1:9 twist then I could shoot 69gr projectiles but I have no need - I don't shoot competitively and I'm never going to target an animal at more than, say, 250m because I can't be confident of a humane result. Other shooters might be comfortable way beyond that distance and good luck to them.
Reliably putting the first shot into a 1.5" circle at 250m is good enough for me. I can do that repeatedly with my 1:12.
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Now I have bought myself annother 6,5x55 rifle, a ruger m77 hawkeye all weather.
But maybee I will get my a CZ 527 in 222 or 223