The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: armoredman on June 08, 2019, 05:23:15 AM
-
Have you ever heard of Seismic? Me either, but a friend of mine showed some prom stuff on FB, and I commented on it. 185 grain bullet at 975 FPS, sounds like a 45 ACP stuffed in a 9mm case. I am the eternal skeptic and said so, gizmo whiz bangs wunderkind bullets, etc.,...so the company SENT me some to test. Color me floored.
The plan is I have some people in the firearms and police supply industry meeting me on a private range, and we will try this stuff, while wearing my CZF shirt and CZ hat, of course, 8), in a P-10C, P-10S, perhaps a suppressed pistol caliber carbine, (the box DOES says perfect for suppressed firearms), only thing I can't do is gelatin tests, nobody local with any. Bummer. Their schtick is momentum is key, and the big heavy bullet at a subsonic velocity will give that momentum. As much as I am a skeptic about whiz bang stuff, I have to give the company props - they sent the stuff to me KNOWING this, and letting their brand new rep hang out with fat old me. I will try to get plenty of video/pictures/etc., and hopefully have an entertaining video up by the end of next week.
The round is called the Quakemaker. I kid thee not. This could be fun.
Edit - Part One Video
https://youtu.be/SVk3IYjtlGY
https://youtu.be/41VOBixvGQc
-
Great teaser post; you got me wanting to see the vid for sure. I am a fan of bigger 9mm bullets for SD, but from 147gr to 185gr is a giant leap! Very very interesting. Boy I sure would love to be able to hang out on private ranges and test new ammo. You enjoy yourself now and let us know when the vid is ready [emoji1360]
-
A-man -
You sound about as surprised as I was when Berry Mfg send me samples of their 124gr HBRN before their Hollow Base bullets hit the market.
I would advise you to take your time and really plan several hard tests. Maybe even buy other SD ammo to compare it against; if not in gelatin, then on paper for accuracy. Definitely a chrono.
Also get closeups and lots of detail photos.
Good luck !
-
185 gr in a 9mm :o . Would like to see that too . Gel would of been interesting .
-
can't you just buy 20 boxes of jello and call it "uncalibrated ballistics gelatin, (flavor name here)"?
-
Sounds interesting, and it could be fun. You are a good guy for it, too. However, I checked out their website, which is almost entirely lacking in information (didn't check FB). I notice they call it 9mm NATO, which confuses me, because NATO specs a 124 grain projectile with a higher than SAAMI pressure, I think. Obviously a 185 grain projectile is not NATO spec, so this leads me to believe by using the term NATO, that the pressure is higher than SAAMI, or +P. Which brings me to my point. Are you using all of your own firearms, and are they assuming any liability for having you "test" their ammo in your firearms? With the paucity of information available on their website, I think I wouldn't jump into this without assurances (in writing) of their assuming liability for damage to you and your guns.
-
It would be great if someone could bring a chrono and a Paul Harrell meat target. :)
Podcast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnEf7e4KPSQ
-
i have a chrony, that will be used, going to see if I can chrono through handgun and carbine. I don't have any ballistic gel, and no, I am not going to do 100 pounds of Jello, someone will want to wrestle in the stuff. I don't know what the other gentlemen will be bringing, so we'll see what happens.
Might see if there is a cheap pork shoulder available, but I need to keep costs down - it's between paydays.
-
Shoot it in their pistol first to see what it feels/acts like.
Will their bullet chamber without hitting the lands in the CZ barrel? I can't imagine how big that bullet is to get that much weight. (I didn't look at their web site.) I'd hate for them to make the trip and then tell you to ream the CZ chamber before you can use their ammo.
Assuming the rounds will run in your pistol, the holes will be higher on the target than with your usual light ammo with the slower bullet. Recoil should feel different. Try it at 7 yards then out to 20 to see if you see any variations in velocities, unless you have the chrono set up when shooting short.
Joe
-
The youtube interview was more interesting than I thought it would be. Based on the claimed weight and velocity, the FPE is pretty close to Winchester Nato 124 FMJ. The developer is working on other heavy-for-caliber rounds as well. Apparently, powder charge development is the key ingredient, but the bullet coating and case materials are also a bit unique. The Achilles heel is cost. The developer said he was right in the middle, price-wise, with other self-defense ammo. Maybe at Bass Pro, 20-round box prices, but nowhere close to what's available online for HST/Gold Dot/Golden Sabre/Ranger-T 50-round boxes. Also, as already mentioned, the big question is where will it hit and how accurate will it be. Still, pretty cool concept and I am glad someone is out there thinking about what is possible.
-
The youtube interview was more interesting than I thought it would be. Based on the claimed weight and velocity, the FPE is pretty close to Winchester Nato 124 FMJ. The developer is working on other heavy-for-caliber rounds as well. Apparently, powder charge development is the key ingredient, but the bullet coating and case materials are also a bit unique. The Achilles heel is cost. The developer said he was right in the middle, price-wise, with other self-defense ammo. Maybe at Bass Pro, 20-round box prices, but nowhere close to what's available online for HST/Gold Dot/Golden Sabre/Ranger-T 50-round boxes. Also, as already mentioned, the big question is where will it hit and how accurate will it be. Still, pretty cool concept and I am glad someone is out there thinking about what is possible.
Where are you finding HST in 50rd boxes? Didn't Federal statt enforcing their LEO only rule with their distributors?
-
The youtube interview was more interesting than I thought it would be. Based on the claimed weight and velocity, the FPE is pretty close to Winchester Nato 124 FMJ. The developer is working on other heavy-for-caliber rounds as well. Apparently, powder charge development is the key ingredient, but the bullet coating and case materials are also a bit unique. The Achilles heel is cost. The developer said he was right in the middle, price-wise, with other self-defense ammo. Maybe at Bass Pro, 20-round box prices, but nowhere close to what's available online for HST/Gold Dot/Golden Sabre/Ranger-T 50-round boxes. Also, as already mentioned, the big question is where will it hit and how accurate will it be. Still, pretty cool concept and I am glad someone is out there thinking about what is possible.
Where are you finding HST in 50rd boxes? Didn't Federal statt enforcing their LEO only rule with their distributors?
targetsportsusa.com
-
(https://i.imgur.com/1GU4s5X.jpg)
Yes, Joe, it passed the plunk test.
With luck I can at least accuracy/chrono test these head to head.
(https://i.imgur.com/rFGsjVJ.jpg)
They could save costs and lower the price if they ditch the goofy packaging.
(https://i.imgur.com/Q7tUvck.jpg)
Just for grins and giggles, weights of the three.
(https://i.imgur.com/BjucPPK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/q3J8ssS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3EL5UR9.jpg)
We'll see what happens next.
-
Ahhh, those pics explain the description of the different case materials.
-
A lot of weight for a 9mm. Waiting on the report and video.
Have fun!!!
-
Very Interesting! :)
The only 185 grain Pistol Bullets I have worked with have been in the .45 ACP and .45 Super.
I'm thinking that there will probably be some Firing Pin wipe on the Primers.
Looking forward to the review.
-
Tagscribe!
-
Interesting! Looking forward to the range report.
-
We have to do this one in more than one part, as we did not have all the resources we needed on the first go-round.
-
SG Ammo still has 50 round boxes of HST last I checked.
Regardless, their website states this:
Heavy Mass Ammunition
Seismic ammo is taking conventional ammunition in a different direction. We believe a projectile with more mass traveling at a slower speed is more effective then a lighter weight projectile traveling at a higher speed and has less risk of over-penetration. Our 185gr 9mm +M ammo is now available and we have other offerings coming soon.
https://seismicammo.com/
Bottom line is that's simply not the way modern HPs work -- expansion of all modern hollow points is very much velocity-dependent. And b/c slower bullets typically expand less, they typically penetrate deeper. For high mass bullets like this, it substantially increases the risk of over-penetration, excepting only those cases where the bullet strikes bone (even then, heavy bullets more likely to break and fragment bone and then continue to penetrate). It's basic physics and terminal ballistics.
Further, penetration is only important for those calibers that already lack sufficient penetration... 9mm in 124 gr+ self-defense bullets already has sufficient momentum to achieve FBI specs as do all larger calibers. Perhaps in smaller calibers like .380 this concept might make sense (.380 ball exceeds FBI minimum penetration specs IIRC) -- but that's about it as I see it...
Now, if we're talking using pistol calibers in place of say .300 blackout, then yeah, this bullet probably has a niche in a hog, deer, etc, suppressed hunting setup.
Effectively, Seismic is rehashing the .45-70 vs .30-06 debate with this cartridge... https://www.quora.com/What-ammunition-is-more-powerful-30-06-or-45-70
Where this whole momentum-first concept comes from is the archery world where arrows are traveling MUCH SLOWER than even subsonic bullets.
https://www.nockout.com/understanding-the-momentum-and-kinetic-energy-of-arrows/
And if you want to get really far into the details: https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/EHU/Momentum-KineticEnergy-ArrowPenetration.pdf
Lastly, where I'm personally concerned with momentum is when it comes to intermediate barriers, penetrating concealment, and turning cover into concealment. For instance, 120gr 7.62x39 or 140 gr .308 is much better at turning cinderblock into concrete dust than is 55 gr 5.56, etc. And to that end, I'm sure Seismic's 185 gr 9mm will perform great against auto glass, but then Lehigh Defense's new lightweight (90 gr in 9mm) all copper rounds that create permanent would cavities via hydraulic forces also perform superbly against auto-glass -- it's as much about bullet construction as weight...
Regardless, unless one is hunting heavy-hided game and needing to do so suppressed and subsonic -- I'm personally grouping this offering with G2 RIP until I'm proven wrong. And fwiw, Dixie Slugs already makes 700+ gr 12g shotgun slugs, but standard shotgun slugs kill bear and moose, and have probably killed a fair number of dangerous African game too -- after all, the 10g/12g is the poor man's elephant gun...
-
Part One posted in original post. Part Two will be a week or so in the making, but we'll have some more interesting tests on penetration, according to theory.
-
Thanks for posting this Video! I think I'll stick to the .45 ACP when I want to shoot 185 grain Bullets.
My preference for the 124 and 135 grain Bullet weights in 9mm remains.
Note that since it's barrel does not tilt, the Beretta 92 should have produced the most consistent accuracy.
Way Back when I played with the then new 147 grain "Wonder" bullets, I had some vertical stringing
and more Firing Pin wipe with my Pre-B Cz75 and Tanfoglio TA90. My Taurus 92 and WWII Walther P38 grouped very well with them
and thus those Bullets were restricted to those Pistols, till they were gone.
-
Thanks for posting this Video! I think I'll stick to the .45 ACP when I want to shoot 185 grain Bullets.
My preference for the 124 and 135 grain Bullet weights in 9mm remains.
Agreed. Good vid.
FWIW, the reason .45 acp hollow points perform better than 9mm at equivalently slow velocities is because .45s have a larger/wider hollow point cavity that allows for greater hydralic pressure despite reduced velocities -- and also why we're seeing continually wider and deeper hollow point cavities on all modern hollow points. The below pic of HST's illustrates the HP cavity differences:
(http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/2015/06/Federal_Premium_HST_Ammo_Review_2.jpg)
Personally, I'd first like to just see expansion of this ammo in water and in water faced with a couple layers of denim. For water, shooting down into (from above) water-filled 55 gallon drum should allow you to retrieve all bullets without any plastic, etc, effects biasing results. Denim's probably easiest done w/ several 1 gallon water jugs in a row.
Secondly, I'm curious about the same water tests above, but also including chrono, out of your Scorpion Evo or other 9mm carbine w/ a longer barrel -- to see if the hunting angle even holds any credibility given actual performance.
Basically, curious whether their claims of improved terminal ballistics hold up. The reduced penetration claim certainly won't, which is why no requested testing is included above -- but you're certainly welcome to give that a go too. I'd enjoy watching. Thanks for taking the time to test this.
-
The keyhole has me wondering if common twist rates will be fast enough for any of this ammo.
-
We don't have any 55 gallon drums, however, we will have some stuff to play with next week, hopefully. If nothing else I can do the water jug thing, have a ton of one gallon jugs around here.
-
We don't have any 55 gallon drums, however, we will have some stuff to play with next week, hopefully. If nothing else I can do the water jug thing, have a ton of one gallon jugs around here.
I didn't think there was 55 gallons of available water in AZ...regardless of empty drums.
Carry on. ;D
-
The keyhole has me wondering if common twist rates will be fast enough for any of this ammo.
That is a common question right now.
-
We don't have any 55 gallon drums...
Maybe if you could get all your movie star friends out of your Olympic pool long enough...
O0
-
;D :D ;D 8)
-
Olympic size pool! Talk about a posh prison for the rich & famous! :o
Sorry if this covered in the video -- going to check it out now, but I'd like to see how much if any set-back occurs with this heavy mass relative to diameter projectile. Shoot almost a full mag, then check the remaining rounds for comparison to original overall lengths? Maybe crimped loads would be prudent?
Hardly scientific, but I shot a couple of boxes of S&B 150gr 9mm sub-sonic. Everything went bang and I didn't notice the bullets wobbling end over end as they flew down range.
-
We didn't notice any setback, but we have a limited amount of ammo to use.
BTW...part two should be filming tomorrow.
-
We didn't get it done that day but a few days later, as my partner in this video came down sick. So, back to the original post and you can find the second video. It was fun, hope you like it.
-
Thanx for making and posting the follow-up video. My original conclusion is hence re-inforced.
I think I'll stick to the .45 ACP when I want to shoot 185 grain Bullets.
My preference for the 124 and 135 grain Bullet weights in 9mm remains.
-
1. Expensive
2. Over-penetration
3. Little expansion
4. Keyholing
Not seeing the upside here. Glad you tested it for us!
-
You are more than welcome, was fun to do so...my first ever ammo test.
-
Active Self Protection facebook will be doing a test. Armoredman -- you might want to link to this test over there: https://www.facebook.com/ActiveSelfProtection/photos/a.293189807455473/2247441312030303/
EDIT: ASP is located in Phoenix, AZ -- y'all might want to collaborate on a Round 3!
-
Hmm, never heard of them. I am willing to bet they don't want to "work" with an amateur like me. :) I just know we had poor luck, but if I get some more opportunities I still have several rounds left.
-
He puts up a fair amount of self-defense shooting videos on facebook for lessons learned. Watch a couple a week for a few years now.
Info on the founder who does the vids: https://activeselfprotection.com/our-owner-and-founder-john-correia/
Apparently does some LE training, including some sort of video training listed on his bio.
Never hurts to connect!