The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: briang2ad on June 22, 2019, 08:42:30 AM
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Folks:
Some of you have P guns that stack - that is get stiff towards the END of the pull. You polish switch parts, etc. etc. to no avail . I finally found one solution that seems to make a difference. FILE and polish the place where the trigger bar slopes to engage the disco. By taking off metal then polishing it to a mirror finish, maintaining the angle, it gets MUCH better. Polishing alone does nothing.
Some P guns stack more than others. One other one went back to CZ and they installed a new hammer and with a bunch of firing, it went away. This other one got mush better with the above work. I was actually going to sell the gun off, then I decided to work the TB one more time.
You are not dealing with the very rear of the trigger bar (which does need polishing), but the place on the right side as it slopes up.
(I don't have the capability to post pics of this - sorry).
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I'll have to take a look at this suggestion.
I have three DA/SA P-series guns. All three had different trigger pulls. My UG P-07 was in pretty good shape. I ended up putting all the CGW parts into it. My P-09 has a very nice trigger with nothing but a reduced power trigger return spring and some polishing. It has a 8.5-9 pound DA but it's very smooth and consistant.
My newest P-07 isn't horrible, but needs some work. I've done the polishing, but would like to see what I can get out of the parts without going CGW.
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I'll have to take a look at this suggestion.
I have three DA/SA P-series guns. All three had different trigger pulls. My UG P-07 was in pretty good shape. I ended up putting all the CGW parts into it. My P-09 has a very nice trigger with nothing but a reduced power trigger return spring and some polishing. It has a 8.5-9 pound DA but it's very smooth and consistant.
My newest P-07 isn't horrible, but needs some work. I've done the polishing, but would like to see what I can get out of the parts without going CGW.
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I got mine to about a 75% improvement by polishing everything that touched anything else, and removing the black rough and crusty coating on the sear face where it contacted the hammer face.
Another very gritty part of it was the groove the spring rode in for the trigger bar (if nomenclature is correct).
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Ya, I'd love to see a defined picture of the place your talking about.
I have 2 09's and 2 07's - all with good triggers with a little CGW love and some tuning, except one. The first 07 has a rough stacking DA pull, toward the end and I've done everything polishing related at least twice, swapped out parts for CGW, add new parts and called CGW and got their take - still haven't found the culprit. I've thoroughly thought about selling it multiple times - but I've got it milled and a venom on it, I won't get near what I've got in it, plus I like the setup.
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Ya, I'd love to see a defined picture of the place your talking about.
I have 2 09's and 2 07's - all with good triggers with a little CGW love and some tuning, except one. The first 07 has a rough stacking DA pull, toward the end and I've done everything polishing related at least twice, swapped out parts for CGW, add new parts and called CGW and got their take - still haven't found the culprit. I've thoroughly thought about selling it multiple times - but I've got it milled and a venom on it, I won't get near what I've got in it, plus I like the setup.
I had the SAME problem and was also considering selling it! (This is why I always recommend buying a P gun in person).
See this thread and especially the 8th photo:
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=70324.0
Most of the thread is about custom fitting. The 8th pic gets into DA timing. Taking some of this out smooths and decreases over travel. For me all else failed but this helped.
I used this thread to focus on the slope shown on the TB. I just needed to be more aggressive. Remember, if you destroy a TB you just buy a new one.
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So step 4 in that thread is the area to file and polish?
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So step 4 in that thread is the area to file and polish?
Basically yes. I know it talks about doing a little changes the DA a bunch, but in practice its not that radical. I had to do it twice, and the second time I used a file before smoothing.
About the worst problem to run into in the P series is the stacking in the rear and over travel. This seems to be a real help. Hope it helps some folks here.
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So step 4 in that thread is the area to file and polish?
Basically yes. I know it talks about doing a little changes the DA a bunch, but in practice its not that radical. I had to do it twice, and the second time I used a file before smoothing.
About the worst problem to run into in the P series is the stacking in the rear and over travel. This seems to be a real help. Hope it helps some folks here.
Fantastic, can't wait to try it out. I will have to wait a few days till I have the free time. Thanks for posting!
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Make sure you post back when you do your work. It would help others with "stacking P guns".
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Any before/after pics??
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I can get an after pic sometime in the near future. Its a matter of taking the stone or file and applying it in the same angle right on the red part. In my case i stoned the crap out of it and still had issues. Then I filed it down with an aggressive small triangle file, again, keeping the angle. I re-assembled and it felt much better. It took work with a file. You still have stone to a polished finish again. It moves the break farther back. If you screw up your trigger bar, they are easy to replace.
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The factory trigger bar is stamped steel. While economical, the consistency is not there. If the rear angle where the disco runs is off a few degrees, the DA can be difficult to fix.
We remove all the "lines" that develop when the bar is stamped at the rear right angle and mirror polish this area. Then we take our CGW disco and mirror polish the small flat on the wings face.
This can help a ton. Sometimes we have to install a new trigger bar (even on a new pistol) to get the DA right.
Then there's the roller, and thankfully CZ-UB has managed to tighten up production tolerances in the last few years. This means fewer roller sizes, but on occasion, CZ-UB really misses the roller size and this, added to the trigger bar, is like arm wrestling to get a great DA.
It can be done, but you have to perceiver.
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don't forget to Stone down and highly polish the side of the trigger bar that rubs up against the frame.
And looking from the rear of the gun the left side of the frame where the hammer rubs up against.
And where the trigger actually goes through the frame Stone down the sides of the frame a little highly polish and highly polish the side of the trigger.
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Not to get off track I had to install a new TB on a PreB to correct the gritty/stacky DA pull. Its amazing what a new trigger bar can do on SOME guns. I had tried a new TB on this problem P09, but to no avail. It took working on the rear slope of the TB as stated above. If you can pick up a gun that has no stacking, it can be great. Grit can be easily dealt with through polishing and shooting.
The side of the trigger bar does nothing about stacking.
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My P-07 has 0 stacking, literally none. Think a Shadow 2, but with a stronger mainspring. The force required to pull the trigger does increase across the pull, but it is linear.
It has the pro kit installed by me and I did a ton of polishing, including areas generally not touched during a standard polish job. Most notably, I also polished the firing pin block, the sear, the pins, and the trigger. I spent over an hour on the trigger bar. The parts that meet the trigger and slide are like glass. Both sides of the trigger are polished to a mirror finish, as is the firing pin block. Not just where the lever presses it, but also where it enters the slide. I also bent the trigger bar spring to reduce the tension, and further bent the tip down so it does not touch the bar.
Lubrication is also very important. The firing pin block hole in the slide has been polished with moly powder, pin channel too. Most of the surfaces that touch things are lubricated with a teflon grease, but I used a teflon oil on all the springs, including the mainspring which is often forgotten, as well as where the trigger meets the bar. Where the trigger bar spring goes into the groove I use moly grease.
My wife has an unmodified P-07 from the same batch, the difference is quite apparent. I believe, judging by where the stacking occurs, that it probably stacks when the firing pin block lever starts moving upward against the block. That means it is either in the block or the lever. Since the CGW lever is a low friction precision machined part, it is probably the block. I did need to do a lot of work on it, so that makes sense.
I would suggest removing the block and mirror polishing the sides. I used 1500 grit on that followed with a 2000 finish. The sear got 2500 and nothing else.
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The side of the trigger bar does nothing about stacking.
Maybe not the stacking part but it sure does smooth out the pull. The more you can off that side of the trigger bar and the shinier you can get it the less friction there's going to be. Make it look like Chrome makes a difference, and a good bit of Grease.
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My wife has an unmodified P-07 from the same batch, the difference is quite apparent. I believe, judging by where the stacking occurs, that it probably stacks when the firing pin block lever starts moving upward against the block. That means it is either in the block or the lever. Since the CGW lever is a low friction precision machined part, it is probably the block. I did need to do a lot of work on it, so that makes sense.
I seriously doubt the lifter arm is causing the gun to stack. The lifter and block give a very slight resistance - it should not cause stacking. You can get CGW parts to help this, but it is not that big a problem.
Stacking is the bugabear of the Omega system. It happens because of "parts stacking". My instructions are about stacking and 'a solution'. The thread I posted is interesting and while for tuning, I learned something - when all else fails, look at filing and polishing the REAR slope of the TB. I went to the range today, and I can testify - my P07 that I was going to DUMP, now has an excellent trigger,
And there is a reason I mentioned that the mirror polish of the TB where it touches the frame does nothing about stacking - because it doesn't. It can get rid of some of the gritty feel - and that is good. But I want people to not WASTE time polishing and repolishing the TB side to get at stacking, because it would be a waste of time. Grit will go away with 1000 rounds also. Stacking makes you suck in DA - and that defeats the purpose of the gun.
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My wife has an unmodified P-07 from the same batch, the difference is quite apparent. I believe, judging by where the stacking occurs, that it probably stacks when the firing pin block lever starts moving upward against the block. That means it is either in the block or the lever. Since the CGW lever is a low friction precision machined part, it is probably the block. I did need to do a lot of work on it, so that makes sense.
I seriously doubt the lifter arm is causing the gun to stack. The lifter and block give a very slight resistance - it should not cause stacking. You can get CGW parts to help this, but it is not that big a problem.
Stacking is the bugabear of the Omega system. It happens because of "parts stacking". My instructions are about stacking and 'a solution'. The thread I posted is interesting and while for tuning, I learned something - when all else fails, look at filing and polishing the REAR slope of the TB. I went to the range today, and I can testify - my P07 that I was going to DUMP, now has an excellent trigger,
And there is a reason I mentioned that the mirror polish of the TB where it touches the frame does nothing about stacking - because it doesn't. It can get rid of some of the gritty feel - and that is good. But I want people to not WASTE time polishing and repolishing the TB side to get at stacking, because it would be a waste of time. Grit will go away with 1000 rounds also. Stacking makes you suck in DA - and that defeats the purpose of the gun.
Okay we get it the TB has nothing to do with stacking. But by polishing it does make the pull smoother.
so just fix the stacking and polish.
If you just fix the stacking and don't polish, you got a non stacking gritty trigger. I'm done
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I just wanted to stay on topic. That’s all. There is a good thread that is quite long, now a sticky that deals with grit. Easy bro.
The thread title is also on target. Grit makes us all 'feel bad', but really doesn't ruin the trigger pull (unless it is literally out of control). Stacking can ruin the DA pull, pull you off your intended target, cost time, and ruin your confidence. It is also something that the stickies don't cover.
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Actually I don't think i mentioned polishing the bar where it meets the frame, I was talking about where it meets the metal of the slide being polished, and where it rotates against the trigger. I did flatten the side a bit and removed the oxide layer, but kept the grooves to hold grease.
As for the firing pin block, the P-07 works a little differently than some of the striker fired pistols I have. On my XDM pistols, a lever is raised vertically and presses the center of the block. On the P-07, the thin lever rotates up against the side of the block. This causes the block to slightly tilt in place before it moves upward. If the sides of the block are not smooth, it can bind against the slide, and cause a VERY large increase in force against the lever, much more so than the block spring. This of course manifests as stacking.
I am not saying what you have done does not improve things. The back of the trigger bar needs to move a lot of stuff. The total movements of action and their points of interaction can introduce multiple stacking forces. In fact, chances are high that i did polish the exact area you are talking about, I did a lot of stuff to the gun when it was apart.
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Make sure you post back when you do your work. It would help others with "stacking P guns".
Yes, I will definitely do so.
Reading the continuing of this thread, I will say - with the frustration I had, I definitely went to town polishing a LOT of things weather I knew how/if they would help or not. Look forward to checking out how this goes and I will look at the other things discussed while I have it all apart.
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Make sure you post back when you do your work. It would help others with "stacking P guns".
Yes, I will definitely do so.
Reading the continuing of this thread, I will say - with the frustration I had, I definitely went to town polishing a LOT of things weather I knew how/if they would help or not. Look forward to checking out how this goes and I will look at the other things discussed while I have it all apart.
I did all I could do to make it as good as it could be while I had it apart. I saw no reason to not spend the extra effort in search of the best result possible.....and am now very happy with the result.
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One more step and PERFECTION. Just put a stock SMALL roller back into this mama jamma. It is NOW my BEST P series trigger. Filing and polishing the rear ramp on the TB, then using the small (.211) stock roller and I have the perfect P series trigger!
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One more step and PERFECTION. Just put a stock SMALL roller back into this mama jamma. It is NOW my BEST P series trigger. Filing and polishing the rear ramp on the TB, then using the small (.211) stock roller and I have the perfect P series trigger!
F I N A L L Y !!!! 👍
That's got to make you happy 🤗
Okay now that you're done with that one , what are you buying next 🤔
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One more step and PERFECTION. Just put a stock SMALL roller back into this mama jamma. It is NOW my BEST P series trigger. Filing and polishing the rear ramp on the TB, then using the small (.211) stock roller and I have the perfect P series trigger!
F I N A L L Y !!!! 👍
That's got to make you happy 🤗
Okay now that you're done with that one , what are you buying next 🤔
Isn’t that the truth of our mutual addiction?
We ALWAYS find the “next” one.
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To big a roller bearing also causes stacking. The best is to have different sized rollers and test them all to get the best timing for the specific gun
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To big a roller bearing also causes stacking. The best is to have different sized rollers and test them all to get the best timing for the specific gun
True!
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Been reading/not commenting as I don't ever use DA. Cocked and locked kind of guy.
But, I will mention that when I do polish the side of the trigger bar I also leave the grooves left over from the machining process. Not for lube but sort of (in my head anyway) a place for crud to work into and stay until I get an opportunity to clean the pistol really well.
Some of the rifles used in desert/dusty conditions (FAL for one) have grooves cut into their bolt carriers called sand cuts. The idea was to give the dirt/dust a place to work into that would allow the bolt/carrier to continue forward/rearward movement easier as it got dirty during use in combat. Seemed to me the machining grooves in the trigger bar might function similarly. And, once you've polished the metal above/around the grooves the surface of the trigger bar contacting the frame is already smooth. Further metal removal just increases the internal clearances between the trigger bar and frame and might cause other issues as the bar has more room to cock sort of sideways during rearward movement. Or so it seemed to my in-experienced CZ mechanic mind.
The next time I pull one of the plastic framed guns down that far I'll try to remember to look at the back of the trigger bar and recall/look up this thread.
Thanks.
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Been reading/not commenting as I don't ever use DA. Cocked and locked kind of guy.
But, I will mention that when I do polish the side of the trigger bar I also leave the grooves left over from the machining process. Not for lube but sort of (in my head anyway) a place for crud to work into and stay until I get an opportunity to clean the pistol really well.
Some of the rifles used in desert/dusty conditions (FAL for one) have grooves cut into their bolt carriers called sand cuts. The idea was to give the dirt/dust a place to work into that would allow the bolt/carrier to continue forward/rearward movement easier as it got dirty during use in combat. Seemed to me the machining grooves in the trigger bar might function similarly. And, once you've polished the metal above/around the grooves the surface of the trigger bar contacting the frame is already smooth. Further metal removal just increases the internal clearances between the trigger bar and frame and might cause other issues as the bar has more room to cock sort of sideways during rearward movement. Or so it seemed to my in-experienced CZ mechanic mind.
The next time I pull one of the plastic framed guns down that far I'll try to remember to look at the back of the trigger bar and recall/look up this thread.
Thanks.
That actually makes a lot of sense. In the injection molding industry, sliding members in a tool will have small grease grooves intentionally ground in them. This helps it hold grease and gives foreign particles somewhere to ride until the next cleaning and PM.