The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => Compact CZ 75s => Topic started by: briang2ad on July 27, 2019, 11:52:52 AM
-
Firstly, this is not a trash CZ thread. We know CZs are durable, but I don't have much data on the issues below:
1. SIG owners are very touchy about refinishing a frame. SIG frames are meticulously hard anodized and there are books on the web (form posts) about how to select a used SIG and how much wear is acceptable. Steel is MUCH harder than aluminum and anodizing is used by every other manufacturer for seemingly good reason - to protect the integrity of the frame. When refinishing an anodized frame, it is not a bubba job - it needs to be done by a pro. Re-anodizing is tricky.
CZ seems to turn out their aluminum frames with no anodizing, and in cases I've seen, no polycoat on the rails. (Even if polycoat was used on the rails it would wear off in a few hundred rounds). Anyone have a post that explains how CZs last given they are the only ones in the industry who use a practice like this? (no hard anodizing and steel slide on bare aluminum frame)?
2. Anyone have a UG framed P01 and a Polycoat P01 and have a comparison of the wear of the gun - leather, kydex, etc.?
3. Anyone run a CZ alloy frame gun for over 40,000 rounds? Anyone do this and refinish one, and can share how it runs now?
Thanks.
-
I refinished the frame on my Sig P938. It's hard anodized Al. I taught myself to do the oven
baked Cerakote(tm). Cerakote actually advises that you do not need to completely blast off
the anodizing. Just be sure it has a dull, matte appearance. It turned out fine. Harder than
a whores heart. Should last for a long time. No need to have it re-anodized.
As for Polycoat....I have no idea. I've never worked with that. With bare steel on Al the biggest
problem would be galling. But if you use a good lube, I use Mobil 1 grease, that shouldn't be a
problem for many years. But then friction works every day, no time off. Eventually you'll wear
out even the best. That's the nature of entropy.
-
There is a process for heat treating/hardening aluminum. Hard anodizing is just a different hard finishing process. While neither process is the same as hardening steel alloys both work well. S&W made their alloy framed semi autos for years and they were heat treated natural aluminum and those that were black were basically an epoxy type finish over the heat treated frame.
My PCR has north of 15,000 now and the alloy frame shows no outstanding wear to speak of in fact my alloy framed sigs show more wear through the anodized finish with less rounds through them than the natural finish of the PCR.
So the bottom line is even though the alloy frames appear bare on the CZ they are still hardened to a specific level for wear resistance.
We also need to remember there are specific aluminum alloys formulated to be hard and wear resistant and what is used in these quality brand firearms is not the same soft pot metal like you'll find in your lawnmower or the nozzle on your garden hose.
-
Thanks SVPP: I just wish CZ would let us know... :)
-
Thanks SVPP: I just wish CZ would let us know... :)
They do. I did not look up every alloy framed CZ model but on the CZ USA website in the specs for the PCR the frame is shown as 7075(T6). 7075 is the alloy grade and T6 is the treatment grade.
-
Thanks for the interesting thread.
For what it's worth, SIG's Nitron finish IMHO is excellent; but their 'PVD' finish on their supposedly top-line LEGION handguns is like something from an Ace Hardware spray can. It wears through to bare metal in no time. SIG Forum is rife with complaints about the PVD finish.
-
Thanks for the interesting thread.
For what it's worth, SIG's Nitron finish IMHO is excellent; but their 'PVD' finish on their supposedly top-line LEGION handguns is like something from an Ace Hardware spray can. It wears through to bare metal in no time. SIG Forum is rife with complaints about the PVD finish.
Those have decreased much over the past year or so.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engineeringclicks.com/7075-t6-aluminium/amp/
-
Sig did have some pretty serious issues with the early PVD on the Legions but my 2018 produce P229 with 4,000 rounds fired has shown no external finish wear and it has been carried some and it gets a thorough cleaning after each range session.
I can't attest to the other finishes of color they are using but ANY finish that is sprayed on or baked on is just simply paint in one form or another and you can just be sure it won't be all that durable. The Nitron is outstandingly durable but then it falls into the nitride category which wears like super iron.
-
Sig did have some pretty serious issues with the early PVD on the Legions but my 2018 produce P229 with 4,000 rounds fired has shown no external finish wear and it has been carried some and it gets a thorough cleaning after each range session.
I can't attest to the other finishes of color they are using but ANY finish that is sprayed on or baked on is just simply paint in one form or another and you can just be sure it won't be all that durable. The Nitron is outstandingly durable but then it falls into the nitride category which wears like super iron.
+1 I pretty much agree with above.
My Nitron SIGs have zero holster wear. Although my early 2018 P229 LEGION RX with close to 8,000 rounds is not flaking and peeling off like the earlier SIG PVD finish, it has worn right through the PVD 'paint' to bare aluminum from holstering. Even my polycoat CZ's have no such external wear, and my P-07's with Nitride finished barrel and slide still look nearly new both externally and internally with 5,000+
A $500 gun with a better finish than a $1500 gun. Sad. :(
-
Sig did have some pretty serious issues with the early PVD on the Legions but my 2018 produce P229 with 4,000 rounds fired has shown no external finish wear and it has been carried some and it gets a thorough cleaning after each range session.
I can't attest to the other finishes of color they are using but ANY finish that is sprayed on or baked on is just simply paint in one form or another and you can just be sure it won't be all that durable. The Nitron is outstandingly durable but then it falls into the nitride category which wears like super iron.
+1 I pretty much agree with above.
My Nitron SIGs have zero holster wear. Although my early 2018 P229 LEGION RX with close to 8,000 rounds is not flaking and peeling off like the earlier SIG PVD finish, it has worn right through the PVD 'paint' to bare aluminum from holstering. Even my polycoat CZ's have no such external wear, and my P-07's with Nitride finished barrel and slide still look nearly new both externally and internally with 5,000+
A $500 gun with a better finish than a $1500 gun. Sad. :(
Yeah go figure right. Thing is there are still many of the north of $3000 custom gun makers(you know who) that still use Cerakote and the like on those hand fit beauties yet finish them in paint??? Unreal.
I'm lucky to have a dealer who can get most guns much cheaper than average market so I didn't pay what most pay for my Legion. Thing is the best bang for MY buck was my M11A1 at well south of $900. I added a set of Xray3 nighties and a gray guns PSAIT trigger and it's as good as a Legion with a bulletproof finish.
-
Sig did have some pretty serious issues with the early PVD on the Legions but my 2018 produce P229 with 4,000 rounds fired has shown no external finish wear and it has been carried some and it gets a thorough cleaning after each range session.
I can't attest to the other finishes of color they are using but ANY finish that is sprayed on or baked on is just simply paint in one form or another and you can just be sure it won't be all that durable. The Nitron is outstandingly durable but then it falls into the nitride category which wears like super iron.
+1 I pretty much agree with above.
My Nitron SIGs have zero holster wear. Although my early 2018 P229 LEGION RX with close to 8,000 rounds is not flaking and peeling off like the earlier SIG PVD finish, it has worn right through the PVD 'paint' to bare aluminum from holstering. Even my polycoat CZ's have no such external wear, and my P-07's with Nitride finished barrel and slide still look nearly new both externally and internally with 5,000+
A $500 gun with a better finish than a $1500 gun. Sad. :(
Yeah go figure right. Thing is there are still many of the north of $3000 custom gun makers(you know who) that still use Cerakote and the like on those hand fit beauties yet finish them in paint??? Unreal.
I'm lucky to have a dealer who can get most guns much cheaper than average market so I didn't pay what most pay for my Legion. Thing is the best bang for MY buck was my M11A1 at well south of $900. I added a set of Xray3 nighties and a gray guns PSAIT trigger and it's as good as a Legion with a bulletproof finish.
SVPP....You did the smart thing.
I jumped on the 229 LEGION RX when it was first offered as I really wanted a factory optics-ready setup, and paid the premium. Don't get me wrong, the 229 IMHO is a really good DA/SA and the (2nd gen) Romeo 1 optic works perfectly with the X-ray3's as BUIS. But the finish.....UGH!
-
So ALL the difference is that T6 is the finish/hardening for the CZ and hard coat anodizing is the finish on the SIG?
(and yes, nitron is WAY better than polycoat - so is PVD).
-
So ALL the difference is that T6 is the finish/hardening for the CZ and hard coat anodizing is the finish on the SIG?
(and yes, nitron is WAY better than polycoat - so is PVD).
T6 is the hardening process that makes the alloy durable and has nothing to do with surface cosmetic finish.I'm pretty sure the Sig frame is hardened the same way and then the hard coat anodizing provides the surface finish on those guns and CZ's surface finish is polycoat.
-
From SIG forum, if your hard anodizing is worn enough - like bright silver - it is considered SHOT - do not buy. That is why I started the thread. CZ has no hard anodizing. On a SIG it is considered the protection of the frame itself.
-
From the Sig Sauer website FAQ. Sig says wear to the barrel and frame rails and anywhere there is metal to metal contact is considered normal and of no concern. Keep the pistol clean and lubricated properly.
The Legion models are Cerakoted now not PVD or anodized so they have to be using a hardening process like T6.
So if these guys on the Sig forum claim these guns are "shot" because you can see shiny wear through the anodizing I guess Sigs are absolute junk then because EVERY one of my 5 Sigs shows that wear and none have over 5,000 rounds fired yet.
I'll just keep shooting them and enjoying them and not put ANY stock in this tired old "will my aluminum frame wear out nonsense".
-
"do not buy" is just that. Yes, 'shot' is a bit hyperbolic - but silver means the anodizing is worn through and the aluminum is unprotected - so people who have been running SIGs for decades generally tell you to avoid buying such guns. Can one run a gun with silver slide rails and just keep grease on it? Yes. But I would not buy such a gun. And, in the case of SIG and hardened Stainless slides on aluminum rails, it wears a bit faster. The hard anodizing IS a hardening and a finish. It protects. Once off, the guns wears much faster. Grease prevents this. Drive accordingly.
CZs come silver (from what I've seen on alloy framed guns), and that is why I asked.
-
While the hard anodizing may provide an additional hard coating to the surface you can be sure the frame of the Sig is tempered/hardened the same as any other quality firearm.
-
While the hard anodizing may provide an additional hard coating to the surface you can be sure the frame of the Sig is tempered/hardened the same as any other quality firearm.
Yes, but bare aluminum is much softer than steel. It is just not as durable. Hence my question about CZs and alloy frames.
-
While the hard anodizing may provide an additional hard coating to the surface you can be sure the frame of the Sig is tempered/hardened the same as any other quality firearm.
Yes, but bare aluminum is much softer than steel. It is just not as durable. Hence my question about CZs and alloy frames.
Yes I know why you asked your question.
Yes no kidding aluminum CAN be softer than steel depending upon the aluminum alloy grade and the steel grade. Modern high grade aluminum alloys often rival many steel alloys. All metals are tempered or annealed to provide a decided strength factor and wear resistance according to the intended application.
This is a tired old beating a dead horse discussion.
Quality aluminum gun frames like what CZ uses in the PCR and P-01 and so on will last longer than most of their owners.
-
I do believe that steel in guns is always harder than tempered Al. For what it is worth:
Al T6 Rockwell 60
Stainless Steel 70
I do believe that in the case of SIG, HK, CZ P series, etc., the Nitrocarbeurizing hardens it further. No, likely no chance of wearing out a P01. But, the hard anodizing adds an extra layer of protection and adds dimension to the metal on a SIG.
Also, when the P01 came out I do believe CZ mentioned something about the frame alloy that was an improvement over the PCR.
-
I do believe that steel in guns is always harder than tempered Al. For what it is worth:
Al T6 Rockwell 60
Stainless Steel 70
I do believe that in the case of SIG, HK, CZ P series, etc., the Nitrocarbeurizing hardens it further. No, likely no chance of wearing out a P01. But, the hard anodizing adds an extra layer of protection and adds dimension to the metal on a SIG.
Also, when the P01 came out I do believe CZ mentioned something about the frame alloy that was an improvement over the PCR.
Well, I would think CZ pulled out all the stops to achieve NATO approval for the P-01 and an expanded International market.
I realize this thread is about durability of frames and requirements for refinishing, however I do wish CZ would revisit the 75 series compacts and Nitride the slides and barrel exteriors like they've done on the more recently designed P-07/09/10 series. Clearly the most durable finish. Wishful thinking I suppose.
Anyhow...as Sir Vis has stated, my P-01's will undoubtedly outlast me.
-
I do believe that steel in guns is always harder than tempered Al. For what it is worth:
Al T6 Rockwell 60
Stainless Steel 70
I do believe that in the case of SIG, HK, CZ P series, etc., the Nitrocarbeurizing hardens it further. No, likely no chance of wearing out a P01. But, the hard anodizing adds an extra layer of protection and adds dimension to the metal on a SIG.
Also, when the P01 came out I do believe CZ mentioned something about the frame alloy that was an improvement over the PCR.
Well, I would think CZ pulled out all the stops to achieve NATO approval for the P-01 and an expanded International market.
I realize this thread is about durability of frames and requirements for refinishing, however I do wish CZ would revisit the 75 series compacts and Nitride the slides and barrel exteriors like they've done on the more recently designed P-07/09/10 series. Clearly the most durable finish. Wishful thinking I suppose.
Anyhow...as Sir Vis has stated, my P-01's will undoubtedly outlast me.
I would love to see them finish the 75 series like the p-series but that would require them to clean the frames and slides up and remove all the imperfections that the polycoat hides. I just don't see it happening either at this late stage of production. They are putting their eggs in the polymer striker fired basket now.
-
Not to get off topic, but I nitrided one of my PreBs and it was NOT bad a all. I did not remove the polycoat - it was too hard. I think CZ could easily Nitride. Would love to see them do that.
I honestly don't think getting a NATO NSN means much. I've never heard WHICH military adopted the P01 and what test was actually run. We ran a thread on it a year ago. I see people all over the www citing this, but again, not much quantitative data. I don't think NATO has a 'T&E Unit/element.'
Just don't see why they don't do much to the frames other than harden - but they seem to last. Someone here had 50,000 rounds. Not bad. But a documented test? Good luck.
-
The T6 for the 7075 is the temper designation and denotes the fact it has been artificially aged. 7075 is "unstable" and continues to naturally age after it is processed so the artificial age gets it to a stable state for use in parts manufacturing without worries that its properties will change over time.