The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Right to Keep and Bear Arms => Topic started by: charlielikesczs on August 05, 2019, 08:51:55 PM
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We are living in sad times. I am 49 years old and my heart bleeds for all these victims of these senseless tragedies. Families shook to the core and for what? I own several firearms. I am certain that the firearm is not the root cause of all this evil. But my questions to you folks are: What is the root cause? Where did we go so wrong? When did it start to go wrong? Can it be fixed? How do we fix it?
Here's my $.02 :
Computers, cell phones, video games(ok-arcades came in late but pac man is not the same as red dead redemption), social media, and no child left behind were things that simply did not exist when I was growing up. Kids played. We played tag, release, hide and seek, frisbee, hacky-sack, climbed trees, you name it. Baseball and football fields were full. Basketball courts were full as well. In the summer we would leave our houses in the morning, come home for dinner, and not come back home until the streetlights came on. And if we were late, we'd catch a whoopin from the old man. If you failed to meet certian academic requirements, you had to repeat that grade.
I drive around alot as part of my job and I dont see anyone outside anymore (With the exception of the local range on the days on the days i want to take my boys shooting). Empty ballfields and crickets. Thats it, thats the list. Its almost as if kids are losing their ability to interact or something. If we were angry or had dusputes, we would just throw fists and be done with it.
Someone once said, “I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots.” Are we there i wonder? I dont stay up on the news as it typically upsets me so forgive my ignorance, but is anyone asking these types of questions? What can be done to fix this mess? OK, I'm done for now but I would love to here some other suggestions because i am just astounded that the best this country can seem to come up with is " its the guns fault"
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The well-meaning esteem building “everybody is a winner, everybody gets a trophy” was the start of it I think. We’ve denied children of a very essential part of life - that part about facing failure because in reality not everyone is a winner, and very certainly everyone does not get a participation trophy. They lack any coping mechanism for failure. Their entire early life they were told one thing, then when they become “of age” they find out it was a lie. They were also told they could be anything, but now they found out that was a lie also. Some obviously take this news better than others.
Take the last Presidential election for instance.... for many young people it was their very first election. Theyq were voting for free college, and free healthcare and free whatever they were also believing was going to be free. They did in fact get a little participation “sticker”, but their pick did NOT win. They completely lack any mechanism for this “loss”. They cannot fathom the idea that other people have not been programmed or are wired the same as they are. They are bitter, intolerant and resentful, and they are certainly not coping very well. Only the extreme and possibly mentally ill appear to be acting out violently, but make no mistake. They aren’t done with their temper tantrums just yet.
I do not know how we fix these broken children, but I can see many places for improvements in reality-based education for the future. It’s not nice to blow smoke up the young people’s behind their whole life - then kick them in the same place when they are all of a sudden supposed to be adults. They need to learn about how life works before they are old enough to vote....or buy guns.
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Seems to me the two of you understand the problem pretty well. I’d only add that boys need a present father, mental health has to be noted from elementary school through adulthood and social media has to start acting responsibly.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I did this discussion on the Tomi Lauren site for 2 hours today. Lots of ideas on what's wrong along the same lines as here but nothing really doable suggested. Most of what I was doing was explaining the difference between actual military weapons and our available AR15 and AK 47s.
Sent some to look up Google pictures of assault pencil to show how stupid the gun control people can be. Also look up assault rifle on any sight other than Webster who changed the definition last year to match what gun grabbers wanted.
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sorry.
but everyone wants a silver bullet to solve the problem but it has many roots.
some of it is what you all stated and then whats hasnt been stated and many other things no one is looking at.
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There is a certain mental health crisis at play here but it comes from many areas.Yes it's best that a child have 2 good parents but I know several people who grew up in divorced homes and they did not grow up hating society or anyone for that matter.
We can point at social media but that was non existent when Colin Ferguson shot up the NY subway and in it's infancy when Columbine happened. Video games have been around for decades now but the most violent one I played in the 80's was defender flying a little spaceship blowing up aliens. Violent games MAY play some role but then look at all the celebrities that make millions on their own horrendously violent films yet tout their moral compass in front of everyone else.
I lay much of the blame on society as a whole today. Look at how religion is demonized and mocked and the most perverse lifestyles are held as absolutely normal and acceptable and even touted as constitutional rights even the killing of the unborn is revered by the American left.
The public school system has grossly failed today's youth. They care more about "gender neutrality" "alternate lifestyle" and "everyone is special" than teaching children what they need to succeed in life. I had many teachers who started the day with the class reciting the Lords Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance and we learned to love our country and be patriotic and it didn't hurt anyone. When we did wrong in school we got punished and our parents also got a phone call and then you got punished again when you got home. Schools and society allow children to run amok today without consequences for anything.
No amount of gun control or banning of certain guns or outright confiscation will repair what ails our culture today. The warped individuals who perpetrate these atrocities will just find other means. Bombs, vehicles, or whatever else they can find to do damage. The internet is their complicit friend in destruction.
There is no quick fix and no single thing that will stop any of this and I personally don't see it changing in my lifetime or what's left of it. To much and too many things are just wrong and until the day comes when society realizes how morally bankrupt it has become nothing will change. Liberalism is the greatest health crisis we face at this point.
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I agree with everything that you all have said. I imagine it will have to get worse before anything gets better. I once read this and I believe it to be true:
“Hard times create strong men
Strong men create good times
Good times create weak men
Weak men create hard times”
It appears to be a vicious cycle. We appear to be on the downslope. Pray. Vote. Be active in your community. Talk to your kids-Nephews, nieces, etc and stay armed.
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Kind of like government where not a single type of government lasts forever - as we slowly slide away from being a republic for the people and by the people.
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I agree 100% with everything you said but I'll take it a step further.
Guns are nothing new in our society, neither are video games and even "social media" if you consider TV and advertising media content that predated the Internet by decades. I wasted plenty of time playing Donkey Kong in my youth but I never felt the urge to hurl a barrel at anyone.
So what's different today? I have an idea. The one factor that clearly stands out in my mind is this pervasive and accepted "common knowledge" that we're killing the Earth and making it uninhabitable. I utterly and thoroughly reject that concept, since I've been hearing it since I was a kid, except then it was the oncoming ice age. Then somehow it became global warming. Now, it's "global climate change." Whatever you want to call it—and whether or not it's actually grounded in scientific fact, or is something Mankind has brought upon itself, and I don't intend to get involved in that discussion on this site—it's a doomsday scenario that young people have been exposed to since birth. It's all they have ever known. We're doomed!
Personally, I view such shrill sky-is-falling for the hysteria that it is, and have only laughed it off. We will be having the same debate ten, twenty, fifty years from now, because it has been the same debate for the past ten, twenty, fifty years. Nothing has changed, and it predates even my life. My early memories of my grandparents were that of hearing them telling me the end is nigh. Now Elon Musk is telling us we have to find another planet (Mars? Really?) lest mankind itself cease to exist. Hey Elon, I'm not going to Mars, neither is anyone else, not now, not ever. Mars is a lousy, dead place completely incompatible with life. Forget that idea.
Again—and whatever the "truth" may be—the effect of this "common knowledge" on young people is pernicious. It has caused them to conclude, to really believe, that they have no future. Their existence doesn't matter. With no future, they don't plan for one. They forego personal savings for retirement (Wall Street Journal article). They forego getting married and having families (comments from Congressional representatives). They'll never get out of debt (comments from Presidential candidates). Then, add the "social media" platform with which they constantly compare themselves to others who are universally more popular and more attractive than they'll ever be. Conclusion: They're losers with no future. Is it any wonder they're killing themselves? After all, the message from climate experts is that people are the problem. Solution: kill all the humans (https://i.pinimg.com/564x/b7/7d/4a/b77d4ac35fc5c44bb2e40e9c670b16ab.jpg). Perhaps in their twisted minds these mass-murderers are thinking they're doing us a favor.
This is bad. It's bad for society. It's an attitude that needs to be stomped out. More than ever, young people today need to know they have a brighter future than at any other time in history, that they're going to have a long and beautiful life. Yet they're being told the exact opposite. Why? Who benefits from this sky-is-falling narrative? The question answers itself.
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Any younger cz lovers care to chime in here? I would really like to hear your opinions as well.
It doesnt help that the media is helping to create this monster by shamelessly showcasing these atrocities (thereby making these imbicilic cowards infamous) for profit and to promote political agendas. Nothing sells like fear.
Perhaps this some sort of way of getting notariety because one is not getting enough "likes, friends, or followers"
I guess i'm just trying to make some sense out of the senseless.
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While these shootings are indeed a very real and true tragedy....
How different is it from a wrong-way driver or drunk driver that hits a car full of people and kills and injures them?
It’s still the criminal actions of 1 person - affecting many others.
10,000 people are killed every year by drunk drivers.
I have yet to hear a single thing from the leftists where they blame the car or truck for the deed. No calls to ban black F250 4WDs. No calls for restrictions on Mustangs, or Buicks. Yet they blame a gun every single time - when the exact same results are the outcome.
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It doesnt help that the media is helping to create this monster by shamelessly showcasing these atrocities (thereby making these imbicilic cowards infamous) for profit and to promote political agendas.
Perhaps this some sort of way of getting notariety because one is not getting enough "likes, friends, or followers"
It should come as no surprise to you but the media does not showcase nearly all of the mass murders that occur with disturbing regularity. The overwhelming majority of mass shootings (defined as a single event involving four or more victims) are not committed by "white supremacists," nor do they use the hated "assault rifle". Far from it. Those stories are equally devastating, and equally tragic. They don't make the news, simply because those stories don't advance their agenda.
Edit: here you go The same weekend as massacres in El Paso and Dayton, 15 people were shot in 2 Chicago incidents. Why aren’t those called mass shootings too? (https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-cb-mass-shootings-language-definition-gun-violence-20190805-dv2g5lcumbeq3gji4dnycx7j74-story.html) From the Chicago Tribune no less. Not a bastion of conservative thought.
Many potential tragedies are stopped by a legally armed CWP holder. As soon as that little detail becomes known, those stories are quickly buried.
Nothing sells like fear.
Exactly. There is no news; there is only entertainment. There is no money in the unbiased collection and reporting of facts. Understand that and it all begins to make sense.
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It should come as no surprise to you but the media does not showcase nearly all of the mass murders that occur with disturbing regularity. The overwhelming majority of mass shootings (defined as a single event involving four or more victims) are not committed by "white supremacists," nor do they use the hated "assault rifle". Far from it. Those stories are equally devastating, and equally tragic. They don't make the news, simply because those stories don't advance their agenda.
From: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/08/photos-every-us-mass-shooter-in-2019-who-shot-four-or-more-people/
(https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/mass-shooters-2019.jpg)
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All of yous have made some good points here. The sad fact of life is the Politician's are spinning all this as it's the Guns fault! So, nothing is new coming from the Dems or the Repubs ! Same old bleep It's the AR-15s Fault! With all the trouble the NRA is having the 2nd Amendment might be in big Trouble! Joe Biden,Corey Booker,K Harris and others want to confiscate all semi-auto rifles! Trump is caving-in already and can't be trusted....Red Flag Laws are unconstitutional and will go to the SCOTUS for the big fight. "Just buy a Shotgun" Joe Biden ~ 2016
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Meanwhile the left hasn't missed a chance to let everyone know who's to blame for the violence yet here is a fantastic example of their hypocrisy.
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/the-hunt-movie-deplorables
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Our greatest moments of growth come through failure and learning. What happens when kids are no longer allowed to fail? No growth. To me, that explains a big part of why we have millennials throwing temper tantrums like children on a regular basis and could be a part of why some explode into cowardly killers.
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Based on data from the natural-born British East African's 2013 CDC study on gun violence:
(https://i1.wp.com/www.libertyparkpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/CDC-gun-numbers.jpg?w=600&ssl=1)
Note: Whoever made the above was a bit mathematically challenged:
- The 20% of non-gang homicides is 2,112, and the 960 accidental deaths should be added to yield 3,072 shooting deaths per years that are not suicide, justifiable, or gang-related.
- 32,000/312,000,000 = 0.10%/yr.
- 3,072/312,000,000 = 0.00098%/yr.
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That’s a very informational graphic..... that every single voter needs to read and understand.
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Why do we have mass shootings? Drug abuse forced on kids by doctors, (Ritalin, etc.), broken homes, noone is ever held accountable for anything, always someone else's fault. That last is most prevalent in crimes involving misused firearms - everyone who did nothing is to blame, not the murderer.
Si Vis is right about that movie, it truly showcases what the loony Left really thinks of law abiding gun owners and conservatives. Look ta the hatred shown, hunting down people with a different political bent than your own, reminds me of Hitler and his cronies hunting jews, except modern times people in the US can fight back. I think that part of the movie is supposed to be these "deplorables" fighting back but the preise is still deeply, horrifying utterly flawed and twisted, the biggest ugly sig of the times as they are today.
How do we fix today's shooting galleries? No easy solution exists, but my suggestion is, for starters, removing "gun free zones". Darn near every mass murder is in a criminal empowerment zone. How many times must we watch helpless people gunned down before we realize that being helpless is not the answer? Eliminate "participation" trophies and let kids grow up as kids, finding out Santa Clause isn't real, and if Timmy runs faster than you, he deserves to win first place in the race. Dial back the mass diagnosis of everyone is mentally ill and everyone needs medication to take the edges off the world, especially children. How in the name of little green pigs did we make it so far as a human race without all of these meds? We learned how.
i am not a sociologist, psychiatrist or psychologist, just a knuckle dragging prison guard, but I think I might be right.
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finding out Santa Clause isn't real.......................................................
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/confused/question-mark-smiley-emoticon.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/)
Despite the above I do agree with the rest 100%
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(https://i.ibb.co/rfX18nr/clinton.jpg)
And in Philthy last night... CLEARLY what is needed, is more high capacity, assault idiot control! :o
Philadelphia police pelted with objects, taunted during harrowing shootout, standoff: reports
https://www.foxnews.com/us/crowd-of-onlookers-taunt-police-during-philadelphia-standoff-reports
Onlookers were seen taunting and throwing things at Philadelphia police Wednesday night amid a wild shootout and subsequent standoff that saw six cops wounded, and video posted online shows one woman shoving a police officer making his way to the scene.
Philadelphia’s KYW-TV reporter Alexandria Hoff described on Twitter Wednesday night how a crowd of people bordering the blocked off active shooter scene allegedly harassed officers.
"I mentioned this at 10 and since I was harassed during that live shot, I’ll mention it here, too," Hoff said on Twitter. "A major moment of disappointment this evening was watching a crowd of people taunt police officers, laughing and yelling at them in the midst of the gunfire"...
modified for tiny little could-be misconstrued as a racial epithet. - armoredman
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That is disgusting. >:(
One thing that isn't brought up is the fact that while these high profile events are all the news, your statistical chance of being killed by a rifle of ANY kind in almost every state is far less than being beaten to death by hands and feet. 2017 California had 37 people murdered by rifles of every type...and 103 people killed by hands and feet. Arizona, with a law that says you can carry a RIFLE concealed without permit, registration of license, had 8 people murdered with rifles in 2017, and 12 beaten to death.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/tables/table-20
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For true "mass-shooters" -- typically young males who get a gun (maybe an AR, AK, or maybe just a pistol) and go to a public place in someway associated with their failure in life, and shoot up the place, with little regard to what happens to themselves -- the answer might lie in their brain chemistry.
Many of these young males have been sedated or tranquilized throughout their school years by psychotropic drugs, administered to make them easier to handle. It is well known that these drugs change the brain's chemistry, and stopping taking them, or taking them intermittently, can cause a suicidal impulse in some people -- and sometimes, a murderous impulse.
These young men, the mass-shooters, are typically from single-parent families and after high school they just drift along, living in a crummy apartment or someone's garage, failing at everything they attempt, and presumably NOT taking their meds on a regular basis. All of that, plus the factors mentioned above -- a school system that passed them along rather than teaching them anything, a giant void in their lives filled by computer games (typically about shooting people), and vague discontent and alienation from either the extreme left or right wing via social media -- and a small number end up choosing to shoot a bunch of people.
Young men who have discipline problems or learning problems in school should be given more attention by teachers who can relate to them and act as positive role models, more phys ed, more specialized training in a trade or outside occupation (e.g., not more classes designed to prepare them for college), a limited diet of computer time (how about 1 hour a day?), and maybe a lot fewer psychotropic drugs. When they graduate from school their meds should be monitored and deliberately tapered off -- the shrinks who administer these things are responsible for these outcomes and should stay in the game until the kid reaches some form of maturity. These kids should have a shot at a decent job, too -- I don't know how that would work, but if I faced a future life of working in fast-food restaurants I might give up hope too.
There are a lot of kids like this and only a few turn out to be mass shooters - a larger number kill themselves, though, directly or indirectly.
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The recent poll results are very troubling, and they come from Fox News.
I usually don't trust polls, but this one is very detailed - and contains a lot of "food for thoughts"
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-august-14?fbclid=IwAR00iKWGyPhorrrnbj_Gg02parYswdQK31ofr9irixh4y0GY0gMRFVlB01M
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The recent poll results are very troubling, and they come from Fox News.
I usually don't trust polls, but this one is very detailed - and contains a lot of "food for thoughts"
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-august-14?fbclid=IwAR00iKWGyPhorrrnbj_Gg02parYswdQK31ofr9irixh4y0GY0gMRFVlB01M
I don't trust Fox any more than I trust any "news" organization at this point. Which is to say, very little if at all.
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How many different types of cancer are there?
What causes cancer?
These killers are simply another form of cancer.
The cancer patient is the human race.
The “cause” is likely to be just as varied as any other cancer.
You can give each type a different name, but you generally have to treat it the same way.
You have to destroy the cancerous cells.
You can go about it like The Socialist Republik of Kalipornia - and declare that pretty much everything causes cancer. But warning labels - just like gun-free zones - don’t do anything at all to save the patient. Cancer doesn’t care about warning labels any more than criminals care about signs or laws. Cancer does what it does until it’s destroyed.
There has always been cancer.
There has always been evil.
The question is:
Do you want to have wait for a specialist (Police) to treat the cancer while it continues to attack the patient?
Or would you prefer to begin treatment the very second you know the cancer is attacking?
(CCW FTW)
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(https://i2.wp.com/politicallyincorrecthumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/quote-samual-jackson-i-dont-think-its-gun-control-about-people-who-arent-taught-value-of-life.jpg?resize=500%2C332&ssl=1)
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I agree with those who have said that there are many causes. But there is one cause which I think is more to blame than any other, though I am not sure I can articulate an explanation of it. Something I have seen, back when my son was still in school, was a tendency of kids to mimic things they saw or heard about, either to "join in" or to portray themselves in a certain way. For instance, one of my son's friends was put on some kind of happy pills, or some behavior modification drug. He made sure that everyone knew about that, repeatedly. It became his quick-draw excuse for everything he did. People around him got tired of it, but he didn't notice, he thought that the status of being a troubled kid on help pills made him look "cool" or something, it was sad to watch. Similarly, when a student at the school was killed in a car wreck, the school goes overboard providing counselors for kids that were grieving. I am sure that some kids who knew the young man that died, were in fact sad, but many took the opportunity to see if they could present themselves as the most bereaved student in the school. It was like a fashion-statement or something. Before you knew it the entire school was crying a river, even though the majority of them hardly knew the young man that had died.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that one factor in these mass shootings, is (especially when it is a young person) the desire to become something they have seen advertised/described/monumentalized in the media. "I want to be the next school shooter" is something that has been said by more than one of the individuals the police have picked up before they did a planned shooting. What makes someone say something like that? The desire to become something, for whatever reason, to belong, to be made famous, to go out in a glorious blaze, etc.
I'm sure someone else could articulate all of this better than I have done, but that's my take on it.
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The recent poll results are very troubling, and they come from Fox News.
I usually don't trust polls, but this one is very detailed - and contains a lot of "food for thoughts"
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-august-14?fbclid=IwAR00iKWGyPhorrrnbj_Gg02parYswdQK31ofr9irixh4y0GY0gMRFVlB01M
Very interesting and disturbing poll. To me, one of the points it verifies is that those polled are vastly influenced by the media (as if we didn't know that already). Few people think for themselves and fewer yet do their own research but simply parrot what they are feed on a daily basis.
Goebbels would be proud of the American main stream media...they have learned their lessons well!
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I was scared to despair as a young boy when I found out some soviet nut could destroy the entire planet by pushing a button. I had a don’t give a bleepe attitude and am lucky to be alive today because of reckless behaviour. Today’s kids are scared to death by being told day in and day out that they have no future as the planet is dying. Helpless. Deaths of despair are skyrocketing in older men who have given up and child suicide and drug use because of this perception that we’re doomed on this planet. The fear mongers in the 24 hour news cycle are killing us. The people who don’t think they are getting a fair chance at the pile of gold are lashing out. Lashing out with guns is just one of the ways someone over the edge responds to hopelessness.
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All of yous have made some good points here. The sad fact of life is the Politician's are spinning all this as it's the Guns fault! So, nothing is new coming from the Dems or the Repubs ! Same old bleep It's the AR-15s Fault! With all the trouble the NRA is having the 2nd Amendment might be in big Trouble! Joe Biden,Corey Booker,K Harris and others want to confiscate all semi-auto rifles! Trump is caving-in already and can't be trusted....Red Flag Laws are unconstitutional and will go to the SCOTUS for the big fight. "Just buy a Shotgun" Joe Biden ~ 2016
I'm pretty sure an argument could be made a shotgun could do more damage in a crowd than an AR ever thought to :o
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All of yous have made some good points here. The sad fact of life is the Politician's are spinning all this as it's the Guns fault! So, nothing is new coming from the Dems or the Repubs ! Same old bleep It's the AR-15s Fault! With all the trouble the NRA is having the 2nd Amendment might be in big Trouble! Joe Biden,Corey Booker,K Harris and others want to confiscate all semi-auto rifles! Trump is caving-in already and can't be trusted....Red Flag Laws are unconstitutional and will go to the SCOTUS for the big fight. "Just buy a Shotgun" Joe Biden ~ 2016
I'm pretty sure an argument could be made a shotgun could do more damage in a crowd than an AR ever thought to :o
There you go, applying logic😏. That’s not politically correct you know! We can’t have facts getting in the way of a good story, just ask the so called “news” ..