The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => A Day at the Range! => Topic started by: armoredman on August 09, 2019, 01:46:18 AM
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Recent events prompted me to try something I don't do enough of - long distance shots from concealment. Basically I set the steel at 55 yards, (measured later, thought it was 50), and facing in random direction, would draw, fire three aimed shots, and if no two clangers, would move to a barricade and fire three more. Without two clangers out of 6 rounds, shooter is "dead" as rifle armed "bad guy" could be reasonably likely to A), realize he is getting shot at and B ) use his superior long distance firearm to render me room temp. Why practice this? Well, I did swear that oath thing, twice, enemies foreign and domestic, serve and protect, all that jazz. In all reality, if in a chaotic situation such as recently, I will be moving my family OUT of the area, and let the real first responders tackle the issue, but if need be, I wanted to see how well I might do. With a compact size pistol this was not the easiest of tasks, for a fat old guy like me. This was one good set.
(https://i.imgur.com/HZpeTVe.jpg)
But, like I mentioned to others, that was TWO rounds out of THREE...and in a chaotic environment, where that third round went could be of immense importance later. After approximately 100 flawless rounds through the P-10C, I had had maybe five or so perfect sets, with the first two rounds clanging. All the rest had rounds into the berm/Grandma shopping for Junior's first headphones. However, I recommend you try it, just once, if you can. This P-10C continuously surprised me with its abilities. Me, not so much. It's also eye opening about many posters I see on other websites, "I'd take that clown out with my Ruger EC9S, no problem!" Yes, Captain Whizbang, there IS a problem.
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How fat and how old?? ;D Good training technique. It's common sense … If you have a handgun and are confronted by an aggressor with a rifle, you disengage and fall back to better cover. Hypothetically, your handgun (.380, 9mm, etc.) is no match for his 5.56.
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Great comment about what happened to the 3rd round. Side note, did you practice with a timer? I've found given all kinds of time, 3 shots to 50 yds onto a C-zone steel with any pistols isn't a big deal, but add the timer factor, yep, 50/50 at best for me.
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Great idea on the timer. Any competition with a timer gets at least some adrenaline going and if in a real situation fighting that adrenaline is paramount to winning the fight.
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….or keep a rifle close by ;)
RCG
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Great comment about what happened to the 3rd round. Side note, did you practice with a timer? I've found given all kinds of time, 3 shots to 50 yds onto a C-zone steel with any pistols isn't a big deal, but add the timer factor, yep, 50/50 at best for me.
I believe the military regards 50 yd as the maximum combat effective range for a service-caliber handgun, based on the ability of a trained (to qualifying standards) serviceman to place half his rounds on a stationary, man-sized target at that range.
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Great idea Armoredman!
I continue to shoot at longer distances - simply because of the kinds of things that happened lately. Some days I’m really on it. Some days I am not as good. But I keep practicing. I still like my Mozambique drills but with 5 or 6 targets at varying distances, with the steel at 100 yds. There’s a pretty huge difference between running the drills with my SP-01Tac, the P-07 and the Sig P290RS. I work with all of them every time. Yes, out to 100 yds IS ridiculous, but improving there means a much better chance of not hitting Grandma at 50 yds while she gets those headphones.
While NOT hitting Grandma is very important, engaging these guys at any distance looks like it more times than not - stops the attack. Putting them on the defensive looks like it ruins their plans pretty quickly.
What I have to do is bring some barricades/concealment to fire from - on both left and right sides. I need more steel for that positive reinforcement - or negative disappointment immediate feedback thing too.
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While not hitting Grandma is ideal, in an active mass shooter scenario it is more important to stop the shooter than to (Heresy!) be overly concerned about your backstop. As you point out, just putting the shooter on the defensive seems to be enough to disrupt his killing spree. If a stray bullet thru Grandma is what accomplishes that, many others will almost certainly be saved. The Dayton Antifa killer's death toll, despite the cops' 30-second response time, is chilling.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one).
-Spock (and Kirk)
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While not hitting Grandma is ideal, in an active mass shooter scenario it is more important to stop the shooter than to (Heresy!) be overly concerned about your backstop. As you point out, just putting the shooter on the defensive seems to be enough to disrupt his killing spree. If a stray bullet thru Grandma is what accomplishes that, many others will almost certainly be saved. The Dayton Antifa killer's death toll, despite the cops' 30-second response time, is chilling.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one).
-Spock (and Kirk)
While this notion may well have some merit to it I'd say let that stray bullet that goes through grandma come from a police officers gun. Being a hero and charged with involuntary manslaughter at the same time and losing everything you own to pay legal fees won't do your family any good either. Even if you beat the criminal charge in many states you won't beat the civil suit brought by the grandmas' family.
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I have my steel targets set at 50 yards off my deck. I shoot rounds of five a couple of nights a week. If I really take my time, I can hit 5 for 5. The challenge is to increase my cadence, which really forces the fundamentals of stance, grip, sight picture and trigger press.
On the days that I've had ANY caffeine, I shoot worse.
On a really good day, after a couple of shots, I can 'one potato, two potato' hit five in a row. I know it's not practical, but I enjoy the challenge of longer range shooting with a 9mm pistol. This is on a 12" X 20" silhouette target.
I'm going to get a bigger plate and hang it at 100 yards like Hickok 45.
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I'm going to get a bigger plate and hang it at 100 yards like Hickok 45.
Yeah, I don't know how big "the gong" is, but it's a pretty big plate.
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….or keep a rifle close by ;)
RCG
That would be difficult in most places I travel, honestly, even though I did actually do that as an experiment years ago with the vz-58 in a UTG case. In AZ it IS legal to conceal a rifle and carry it if one is so inclined to do so, but it is...a pain. The People Mover doesn't lend itself to keeping a rifle near to hand, either, but there are days when one might find it's way behind the seat.
Now if I had the Scorpion outfitted with folding stock knuckle in one of those 5.11 bags, that would be good, but still a pain, especially going into some stores, "Sir, you need to leave your bag with us." Yeah, not gonna happen. ;D But you are rght, a long gun on tap is better vs long gun than handgun any day of the week at range.
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My 12” x 20” silhouette is hit quite a bit at 100 yds with 9mm. It gets hit more than I would expect at 150 yds. At 200 yds its by guess and by golly whether you hear the faint “plink” sound if you do manage to hit it. Yes, it’s unreasonable, and beyond effective range. But who doesn’t enjoy a challenge? We got who buys lunch riding on those challenges!
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That's much better than I can do standing! 8) :o I remember watching Joe L here tag a paper plate at 200 yards with his P-09 a while back, too. I really don't remember what the dimensions on my steel is - it's a 3/4 IDPA.
...While this notion may well have some merit to it I'd say let that stray bullet that goes through grandma come from a police officers gun.
And the latest report from Dayton is two civilians WERE hit by police bullets, though the one fatality they state was caused by the murderer before the LE bullet hit. They had no choice, they had to shoot.
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Great idea on the timer. Any competition with a timer gets at least some adrenaline going and if in a real situation fighting that adrenaline is paramount to winning the fight.
Agree. A timer can give us a sense of urgency and help us make progress more quickly in the training.
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Yep, now I need to go find one. Did some more 25 yard work yesterday...and it needs work. In this situation, you CAN'T miss...
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I’ll be trying this tomorrow. Great post!
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12x18 plate at 70 yards as part of the Active Shooter/Safe Schools course in Texas:
(https://i.imgur.com/Rz2FEuL.jpg)
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Nice, how did you do?
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I hit it every time.
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I hit it every time.
Well done, sir, well done. 8)
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I hit it every time.
Very nicely done!
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Thanks, guys - I've been doing this a long time, so I'm just grateful I can still see well enough as I age ;)
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I did it again yesterday, rifle and pistol at 50 yards...not really encouraging. The only really good one was the "hostage" where I had about 1/2 inch to hit the "bad guy", and nailed the bad guy three times with the AR and irons. And of course, I failed to get a pic... ::)
My son did see some pictures on the phone and wanted to know why one target was down low - I said "that's the guy with the RPG - you have to hit him first." I got some of the photos on the drive at home, post tomorrow.
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Great comment about what happened to the 3rd round. Side note, did you practice with a timer? I've found given all kinds of time, 3 shots to 50 yds onto a C-zone steel with any pistols isn't a big deal, but add the timer factor, yep, 50/50 at best for me.
Time factor not to mention the quart of adrenaline dumped in your system when someone’s shooting at you😏. I agree though that practice at longer range can only help. The more familiar you are with your piece of choice the better you will shoot it. Find A gun you want to (and will) carry, and then do your best to wear it out through firing Lots of rounds.
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Great shooting, what kind of ammo were you shooting that day?
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I love the challenge of shooting long range with pistols. I commonly put clays on the 50 yd berm, but I don't get to draw at that public range. Then afterward I break out the mkII to finish off the fragments.
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Due to my past life, I have been in a few scraps both on duty and off duty.
I believe in being able to make long shots with a pistol, I mean 50 to 100 yards. I used to train with my duty pistol out to 100. Being a long time ago the pistol was just a stock Hi Power or later a Glock.
My longest for real shot was right at about 100 meters so a little over 100 yards, this was made with a Hi Power.
I also owned a micro Uzi, that was a track driver and allowed easy 100 meter shots. Being in Israel, when I would go to social events I would carry this gun as my "long" gun over my Colt Commando.
Now years later, with a red dot on my CZ P07, the shots have actually become easier. I carry the setting on the red dot with it being bigger so it will be faster to pick up in the majority of self defense situations. If faced with a real life long shot I would from a position of cover dial down the red dot to the smallest I could see under the lighting at that time.
It really is simple, just know and remember the bullet drop for your carry loads. Added to dry fire work at least 4 times a week. You will be surprised at how easy hits at 100 become with a lot of hard work.