The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Duke Nukem on December 04, 2019, 01:15:40 PM
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I'm getting into reloading, specifically 9mm for a P10-C, and need to create my work and storage area. My only option of location is in my shop, an open space where I also do woodwork (read: make dust). I'm thinking of ways to create a dust-free bubble around the bench, I'd like to avoid building walls if possible. I'm picturing hinged panels or plastic curtain . .
My bench top build has begun. I'm working with construction grade materials and have a top that is 60" x 21" x 1-1/2 to 3". I have a Lee Classic turret press to mount, and want to make a solid foundation. I'm wondering if pine 2x material will hold up as a work surface, or do I need to apply a layer of something sturdier. If I can go with what I've got, I'll stain and polyurethane it, both for looks and for easier clean ups.
(https://i.imgur.com/rTPPkUgm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5JNBJ3Lm.jpg)
Once the question of the top surface is settled, I'll radius the front edge. My plan is to bolt things to a 2x6 wall, with 2x4's at an angle instead of legs to the floor. Over the bench will be a shelf and a cabinet for storage, with lighting under the cabinet. Sound like a reasonable plan, or am I going astray somewhere?
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Might want to reconsider the top stabilization. You will want a solid support near or directly under the press to minimize bench flex during reloading. The cantilever design you are working on may not prove stable enough.
My bench uses the same type of top but I don't bother finishing it at all. I use it too much in my garage to worry about it. I don't intentionally drill holes in it but if I do, no big deal. If I wack it with a hammer or whatever, no big deal. I've been known to just screw stuff to the bench if I need it held down proper, again no big deal. When I finally want to replace it I can just unscrew the top and for ~$30 screw down three new 2"x12"x12' planks and viola a new bench. I also have just flipped the boards over and reused them for additional life too.
Cheers,
Toby
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What he said, plus...
What you got is fine, but I would brace the underside with 1x4 or 2x4 stood on edge. That braces the top, and gives you something to attach the front legs to. (Attach it to the wall and you triple the rigidity and won't need rear legs.) A free-standing bench sounds nice but getting the wobble out will be hard. So the underside is equally important as the top.
(https://i.imgur.com/agLoU7o.jpg)
To know where you want the legs, first you need to decide where the press is going to be. If you decide middle, then you might want 3 legs so you can have a leg in the middle. If you decide near the right end, then you can use 2 legs, just bring them both toward the center 20" or so. Heavy legs keep the bench from raising up on the up stroke. (I used 4x6 garden timbers on my bench.)
I'd check Inline Fabrication to see if they have a press mount for your press. Getting the press off the front lip of the bench does wonders for stability. You'll see a lot of Dillon presses raised up on these supports and they are magic. https://inlinefabrication.com/collections/ultramounts
(https://i.imgur.com/0frWxvM.jpg)
You need to know the height of your op lever to know how long to make the legs. Also whether you intend to sit or stand. The op lever ball should be right at the height of your shoulder.
As for dust, I just pull a large plastic bag over my equipment. And clear shower curtains are $1 each at Dollar General. 2 or 3 of those would "wall off" a work area fairly good without making you feel confined or claustrophobic.
You got a great start. Keep talking. ;D
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Thanks for the tips, tdogg & Wobbly! Question- I was looking at the inline fabrication site and see there are three heights of press risers. Given that I haven't installed my bench yet, and I don't plan to have doors or drawers beneath, do I need a riser? If so, what height riser should I get?
It looks like one advantage of a riser is that it gets the mounting points a little farther from the edge of the bench. I see some installations with a flat metal plate, don't know if that would be as good. I guess I didn't plan ahead, but I didn't know what I didn't know!
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With a table made of boards running side by side like the pic in the OPs post I'd be afraid the torque of resizing cases would but them apart at the joints. running braces perpendicular to the long/top boards and screwing/bolting the top boards to the braces underneath would help.
If you mount the press to the edge of the outside board it's kind of tough to have a brace running the length/front of the board. I ran into that on the one I made for my garage. Two 3/4" pieces of plywood for the top with 2X4's around the outside bottoms of the plywood. Two by four legs screwed to the corners and a second shelf (made the same way on top. With that that 2X4 turned up on it's edge attached to the front/bottom of the shelf there wasn't much of a way for me to grab a drill and bit and drill down through the 2 layers of plywood and the 2X4 and keep those two front bolts straight. I ended up using some big C clamps.
Now I have it (the press bolted to a big old cafeteria table from a DuPont plant built back in the 1930's. The dummies were throwing it away and I got a materials pass to save it and bring it home.
2 thick pieces of plywood on top, formica looking stuff glued on top of that, a metal trim/edge all the way around and a very heavy cast iron set of legs with a cast iron brace running from end to end in the middle o the table. And, I mounted the press near one set of legs to make all that resizing happen in a stronger area of the table/top.
And, you say you're going to load for pistols? How long will that last before you're resizing rifle cases? That will put some more stress on your reloading bench.
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It looks like one advantage of a riser is that it gets the mounting points a little farther from the edge of the bench.
That's exactly it. It spreads the bending load over a greater part of the top surface AND locates the load more toward the center of the bench top, rather than allowing it to be concentrated at the edge. It's not that you can't start without it, it's simply that it makes such a huge difference, not just a small incremental step. And being a craftsman, you probably don't want a lot of holes in your good looking bench top.
I see some installations with a flat metal plate, don't know if that would be as good.
Flat plates spread the load over a bigger area, but can't stop the front edge loading.
I guess I didn't plan ahead, but I didn't know what I didn't know!
That's why we're here. So you can ask. ;D
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Mine is built like Wobbly's suggestion. An extra front center leg near my presses and screwed to wall studs on the back(no rear legs). I use stained and urethaned solid core door blanks for bench tops. Super sturdy, cheap, and easy to replace. After trying an Inline mount, I would never go back. It makes more difference than you'd think, it's a game changer.
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Thanks, everyone! I have my Ultramount ordered, I think I'd better wait until it gets here to set the bench height. In the meantime, I can get started on the cabinet for over the bench. I'll post more pictures when I'm farther along.
This will be 3" thick for most of the top, and has three pieces of 2x4 running front to back sandwiched in the middle. 2x6's on the top and offset seams for the lower layer, all glued and screwed together. I'm going to try my cantilever/angle support idea first, I can always add vertical legs if it isn't absolutely solid.
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My bench top is 3/4" A/C plywood with sanding sealer finish. I backed that up with 2 layers of 3/4" particle board, and the underside is braced that with 1x6 along the edge, and 1x4 under the central portion. It's all glued and screwed.
I've learned that a basic wood surface is the best. I had a hand-me-down bench with steel frame and a Formica top. It was really stiff, but every time a loose primer hit that Formica it went skittering off to Never-Never Land. Six years later I'm still finding those primers.
Overhead cabinets are great. Just remember to place them high (or keep them shallow) enough to miss the tops of the press. I had my 550 on the left end, but when I got my much taller 650 things had to move to use the cabinets. If you only want to do it once, I'd offset the cabinets.
(https://i.imgur.com/0UgSuQ3.jpg)
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I hope that Wobbly does not mind that I borrowed his picture and modify it. Another way to to stiff the blench is to install a side panel along the line where the press is going to be. The leg beneath the press for sure stiffens the bench. Also attaching the bench in the wall studs it will make it even better as mentioned earlier. Just imagine; you are basically trying to flip the bench when pushing the press lever down.
(https://i.imgur.com/Qu687FA.jpg)
Here is what I did. if you look closely the front legs are inline with the front legs instead of behind as we typically see.
"My garage is very small that forces me to have my stuff in casters or hung in the walls.
My woodworker bench is from Festool MFT bench (43" x 28"). I made the roller cart to house the MFT bench, vacuum and other tools. The MFT table has holes on it so that you add stoppers, clamps, etc like a welding table.
Because the MFT bench has a attachments slide rails, it occurred to me to build a pedestal for my Loadmaster an attached into my MFT bench instead of building a dedicated bench.
The Loadmaster pedestal is made out of 2x4's and 1/2" AL plate that was leftover from a project. I made the front legs to be further out from the press to minimize flexing. At the bottom, some adjustable screw legs from Lowes. When I reload, I put a sheet of craft paper on top so that I don't loose stuff in between the MFT and the cart.
When reloading, I sit in front of the bullet seating station (7-8 o'clock as viewed in the picture) that way I have a clear view of the powder level before placing the bullet.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ox2N5ZYs_2Y/VsX2Yo2SlEI/AAAAAAAAAjU/14NNiI7wSbE/s478-Ic42/1b.jpg)
My MFT workbench
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oMYA3TrB8fQ/VsX1J4yN6NI/AAAAAAAAAjU/rhXusCAUGsA/s512-Ic42/IMG_3889.JPG)
Loadmaster pedestal attached to workbench
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MykrdVpWFiY/VsX1KoHS5uI/AAAAAAAAAjU/bT4T4mhkVmw/s640-Ic42/IMG_3890.JPG)
Loadmaster recessed in "
By the way here is my youngest one helping loading some clean 9mm cases into the case feeder
(https://i.imgur.com/cWZvEt9.jpg?1)
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Here is what I did. if you look closely the front legs are inline with the front legs instead of behind as we typically see.
I'm not sure what you mean "front legs inline with the front legs", but I get the part about putting bracing at the point of most effort.
I have the top ready to mount now, and I'm trying to figure out the right height. After looking at what other people have done, I decided I need to work it out based on the height of the stool I didn't own yet, so I picked one up today (28"). From a seated position (standing is about the same), measuring to where my shoulders are to correspond to the handle of the press, going down 19" to bottom of press, and down another 9" for the Ultramount riser, that bench is going to be about 21" off the floor . . . I'm going to have to build another bench above this one so I can reach stuff! Maybe I made a math error, as I don't think I've seen anybody else's bench that low.
I'll look at it again tomorrow, it might all become magically clear! ???
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I just attach the loaders to framing and don't consider the top as part of the equation.
2x4's vertically are plenty rigid. ;)
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Ooops! Sorry, I guess that my mind was thinking fast got shorted while typing. What I meant is that normally a reloading press is mounted at the edge of the table where the press' ram is closer to you than legs of the table. In this case the table is susceptible to "flip" while pushing down the lever. Now if you somehow have the table's legs closer to you than the press; it is the table will resist the tendency of "flipping". Think of a boom crane truck. The outriggers are deployed before operation of the crane.
Here is an example of what I mean. This little aftermarket bracket was used to stabilize the press. Basically you are transferring the force to the floor. If you remove the stabilizing leg, it is more likely that the wire cart bench will tumble.
(https://i.imgur.com/AkIa6MI.jpg)
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Thanks romukom and painter!
I was right, things became more clear overnight- I woke up knowing the problem; one of the dimensions I was using was wrong (press base to lever knob is only 10"). The correct math has the bench height at 30", I can live with that. Now on to building a base and bolting things together.
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Thanks, everyone! I have my Ultramount ordered...
Don't forget the height of the Ultramount in your calculations !!
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Thanks, everyone! I have my Ultramount ordered...
Don't forget the height of the Ultramount in your calculations !!
Exactly! If the bench is at 36", plus the Ultramount at 9", and the press lever adding 10", I end up right at shoulder height both seated and standing. That's what I've read is ideal, hopefully it's ideal for me!
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There's so much movement in reloading that the height doesn't need to be exact. It's not like, say for instance, typing where 1 inch makes a huge difference.
If you get close, then you'll be good.
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Determine if you want to stand or sit when using the press. I prefer standing. From the position you want drop both arms down with you elbows close to your body. Raise the hand operating the lever without moving your elbow. The height of your hand will be the perfect height of bench +press+mount. Hope this makes sense. It does in my head which isn't saying much.
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Still waiting on my Ultramount to ship (label has been printed), but have the bench mounted:
(https://i.imgur.com/h9kMQxBl.jpg)
The support seems rigid, I can't get anything to flex or budge. Plenty of 3" screws.
(https://i.imgur.com/YTJRrebl.jpg)
It's a very solid top, pretty heavy, too!
(https://i.imgur.com/c6u4pXzl.jpg)
The middle 2x4 is for the back bolts on the riser.
The height should be good for standing or sitting, it's 36". Still have to build a cabinet for over one end, and a shelf for the scale.
I may add a shelf underneath the bench, both for storage and for a foot rest, but shelves are dust collectors so it might just be a foot rail.
Looking forward to getting set up,
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You might want to reinforce that bench top some more. ;D
That looks very nice!!
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You might want to reinforce that bench top some more. ;D
That looks very nice!!
Yea - 1" plate steel!! O0
When I mounted my press I didn't want to have to bend my back at all - so I made sure when the handle was all the way down, I didn't have to bend at ALL. This was prior to back surgery and I still like it this way.
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You might want to reinforce that bench top some more. ;D
That looks very nice!!
Thanks! I'm trying to find a happy medium between functional and pretty; part of me wants to stain and varnish those supports. We'll see which part wins, right now I'm thinking it's good 'nuff.
I'm glad there wasn't 1" plate steel in it when I picked it up! I'm also building some large doors for the shop (5x8x2-1/4"), they're a handful for two people, I'll be glad when they're finished and I can start working in grains instead of pounds. :D
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Dillon sells a mount for almost $25 less. How does it compare to the inline one?
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... I may add a shelf underneath the bench, both for storage and for a foot rest, but shelves are dust collectors so it might just be a foot rail...
wire shelves are better at not collecting dust than flat, solid shelves
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Nice looking bench.
Mine is made of heavy rough grade "outdoor" lumber. It is my second bench; the first one was nailed together, while this one is screwed (and in some key locations bolted) together for greater rigidity and stability -- good qualities for any reloading bench.
The Redding T7 press is up a little higher than might be typical so that the turret is about eye level - the dies, and the top of the ram, are where my eyes look (and hands go) to make changes and handle components.
I added a large shelf under the working table top for storage of bullets, which are heavy and best kept low. Powder is kept some distance away, nowhere near the overhead light bulb, metal tools, the flashlight, or the press itself -- nor, obviously, near where the primers are kept.
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You'll probably need more electrical outlets. Press lights, electronic scales, case prep center, case feeder, phone charger, tumblers, they all take AC.
You'll want a 1x6 shelf mounted on the wall just above the outlet to hold your scale and caliper.
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wire shelves are better at not collecting dust than flat, solid shelves
Of course, you're right! I may try to fit wire shelves around or between those supports, another idea is to close in a shelf with cabinet sides and a door . . that would stop dust from getting on what's on the shelf. I think I'm going to have to address my dust collection a bit more, capture (more of) it at the source, my current system needs improvement.
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You'll probably need more electrical outlets. Press lights, electronic scales, case prep center, case feeder, phone charger, tumblers, they all take AC.
You'll want a 1x6 shelf mounted on the wall just above the outlet to hold your scale and caliper.
I had outlets put in every four feet when this was built, so there's another one not far away, but I can easily swap out the front plate on that box and jumper another outlet. Right now all I have to plug in is a light, but as you point out, in the future . .
Shelf is planned, both to keep things off the bench and to get the scale in a location more protected from vibration and air currents.
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Keep us updated with your progress, I'm in the process of plotting out what my new bench will look like and I'm always looking for new ideas
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That looks good to me.
One thing I would say is do not underestimate the amount of things you will end up buying. With that, I would recommend enough storage space to accommodate the things you will purchase along the way.
Good luck and keep us posted in your progress.
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If there’s one thing I can appreciate it is over engineering everything, especially reloading and work benches! You, sir, are a man after my same efforts of overkill.
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Looking good! It looks like you have plenty of room. I can't wait to see everything set up.
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Thanks all! I'm going to go ahead and post as I make progress; partly to show what I'm doing, but mostly in hopes that any errors in my ways or room for improvements can be identified. It's nice to feel I've got experts looking over my shoulder to keep me on the straight and narrow! ;)
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This is an alternative to individual outlets. Comes in a variety of lengths, dual circuits, etc.
It's non-metallic so it never rust and holds up well to heavy use.
https://www.hubbell.com/wiringdevice-kellems/en/Products/Electrical-Electronic/WireCableHose-Management/Raceway/Non-Metallic-Raceway/PlugTrak/PT155112/p/1530197
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This is an alternative to individual outlets. Comes in a variety of lengths, dual circuits, etc.
It's non-metallic so it never rust and holds up well to heavy use.
(https://hubbellcdn.com/prodimage515/WBP_PT155112_PRODIMAGE_515.jpg)
Thanks for the suggestion, SoCal!
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I've got a cabinet built for storage over one end, just test fitting here, door has been assembled but not attached:
(https://i.imgur.com/doKQoXnl.jpg)
The press has been mounted, but I overlooked the fact that there is supposed to be a tube connected to the bottom of the ram to catch spent primers. If I'm going to use it I'll have to bore a hole through the bench, so it'll need to come back off:
(https://i.imgur.com/igm10A1l.jpg)
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If you have a small piece of PVC or conduit, cut it so that it fits up against the bottom of the ram so you can raise the handle, push the PVC/pipe down till it contacts the bench top and then draw your circle around the PVC/pipe. That should put the hole right where it needs to be when you put the press back on it.
You'll like that press. I don't use mine as a progressive, I do use it to reload every caliber I own. Comes in handy to be able to set the dies up in that disc and easily rotate the disk to the die you need when you run across an empty that needs the case mouth belled, or you need just a few more cases to finish off a box of ammo or a box of bullets and you can grab some brass, size it, bell it, prime it and load it without having to remove one die to install/use another.
And, the hose will fall off the bottom of the ram. Eventually it will split, too. I finally clamped the hose to the ram with a small gas line clamp.
Since I'm now in the new shed with the press mounted to the big bench I've wondered about tying to find a piece of PVC pipe/tube that I could clamp to the bottom of that ram. Get it the right length and get the right plastic jug/jar under it and the tube/pipe could raise/lower with the ram travel and never raise up high enough to "lose" spent primers outside the jar.
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Thanks, M1A4ME. I got the hole bored, chose to go 1" diameter, so it's a loose fit but I got lucky and it's centered. That's not surprising that the spent primer tube will need attention later, no big deal, though. I went with this press on the advice of a friend out west that does a lot of reloading, I was heading for a progressive press until he talked some sense into me! As a beginner, I think this was a good choice, and it may be all I ever need. I've been surprised to learn that lots of old time reloaders are satisfied using single stage presses.
I got all the cabinet parts fit, they're now getting some stain and will soon get a clear coat. Next on the agenda is to build a low shelf for the bullets, I don't want to load the cabinet with too much weight. Nothing photo worthy right now. I had hoped to get some rounds loaded up this month, but the holidays are approaching quickly.
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So I'm heading out the door today and my wife says "hold on, here's something to throw away". It was an old foot massager thing that wasn't seeing any use. I think, hmm, wonder if there's any parts I can use. After looking at it, I think there might be a vibratory cleaner here- this thing is designed to shake a bunch of water around and numb your feet, so it might just be able to handle some brass and media . . . crazy? The motor has two offset weights to get things rattling.
(https://i.imgur.com/G8ONXc0l.jpg)
I threw some brass in and watched it circulate around, looks promising:
(https://i.imgur.com/YuvOmYCl.jpg)
I think I'll try it out as is with a bag of rice (either outdoors or with a cover fixed on somehow), if it doesn't work out I'll rig up a more conventional bowl shape and see how that does. Funny, I wanted to buy a vibratory cleaner, but my fun-with-things-that-go-bang budget has been stretched lately so I was going to have to delay the purchase.
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Might need to make a label to cover the "Foot Fixer"... the "Brass Brightener". ;D
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Might need to make a label to cover the "Foot Fixer"... the "Brass Brightener". ;D
Good idea! I was thinking either Ammo Brite or Brass-O-Matic.
Need to test it first to see how it works.
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Might need to make a label to cover the "Foot Fixer"... the "Brass Brightener". ;D
Good idea! I was thinking either Ammo Brite or Brass-O-Matic.
Need to test it first to see how it works.
"RONCO Brass-A-Matic" has a nice ring to it
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FORUM RULES VIOLATION !!
Rule 7891652, Sub-section 978, Article Y, Paragraph 1279.....
"It is unlawful to begin a thread about building a reloading bench and not post daily updates, with photos."
Sir, this is a serious violation of the microscopic print on page 15,856 of your CZ Forum Membership Agreement which should be rectified ASAP, or the Reloading Police may be knocking on your door at 3AM.
The Management
O0
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My Humble Apologies, rectification to follow ASAP!
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I've made some progress, but still need to make a shelf for over the bench and some shelves for under the bench. I put a lock on the cabinet because it seemed like a good idea, at least I made an effort to keep things safely out of curious hands (no kids in our house, it's just because).
(https://i.imgur.com/mCkRfT8l.jpg)
The cabinet will be for powder and primer, as well as accessories I have room for.
(https://i.imgur.com/i9t9vUNl.jpg)
I picked up an LED light from Lowes, seemed like a handy thing:
(https://i.imgur.com/c1812yrl.jpg)
The most ambitious part of the project is the dust cover, I may upgrade this to a larger model ;D:
(https://i.imgur.com/Ezbiwg1l.jpg)
I got impatient, er, I realized the most prudent thing to do was put this setup through the paces and see how it does, so I spent time I could have been building, and started working up some loads. Other than having powder leak from the auto-drum it went well. I haven't tried it again, but I opened it up, cleaned with solvent and added graphite under the cone. Those pesky holidays and relatives are going to keep me from getting more done until after New Years, but such is life.
With the spent primer tube on the right, the stool stores neatly on the left. I'm thinking shelves will need to go on the right unless they're shallow. The low storage I'm thinking will be for bullets and cases, and case cleaning gear.
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Those pesky holidays and relatives are going to keep me from getting more done until after New Years, but such is life.
I hear you loud and clear, brother.
Your photos are great, and your name has (temporarily) been removed from the Reloading Police Go See & Harass list. But you have been warned !
So is the stability to your liking ? Any impressions you can share with your fan club about stiffness with and without the press stand ?
;)
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Those pesky holidays and relatives are going to keep me from getting more done until after New Years, but such is life.
I hear you loud and clear, brother.
Your photos are great, and your name has (temporarily) been removed from the Reloading Police Go See & Harass list. But you have been warned !
So is the stability to your liking ? Any impressions you can share with your fan club about stiffness with and without the press stand ?
;)
It is with great relief that I hear your good news, and the fact that I may not soon see the Reloading Police is a great worry taken from me! :-[
I've only spent a few hours using the equipment, but it was very easy and comfortable to do. The bench and the riser/press combination are all rock solid, no wobble, shake or shimmy. Thanks for the tip on the Ultramount, it really is a quality product. The height worked out just right, I believe, and I can stand or sit with the same convenient reach. I think if I collect powders and calibers like some people, I may outgrow the storage space in the cabinet, but I can build more storage when and if the time comes.
I like being able to sweep the area under the bench, and so far I can attest to having no trouble finding primers that launched in random directions. I didn't have the light hooked up before today, so I can't say if it's going to be sufficient, but it seems to put plenty of light right at the loading ram and down in the case. I want to store the Brass-O-Matic and media, empty brass, bullets and maybe targets in this area, so it will take some finesse to get done in a way that allows for the needs of today and tomorrow. I'm in a relatively large space, but it also has to serve other purposes, so I'm trying to account for every square foot I use.
This is a fun project for me; I don't know if showing what I'm doing is going to help anyone, but I've already learned a ton from this site and wanted to participate in what basic way I can.
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The bench and the riser/press combination are all rock solid, no wobble, shake or shimmy.
What ?? No wobbles ??
You sure know how to hurt a guy. ;D