The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: Joe L on April 08, 2020, 04:38:07 PM
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So, I'm bored. I pulled out my P-09, took out the barrel, ran a brush with some Kroil on it, then a few patches. The 3rd dry patch was white, so I chucked the barrel in a vise, and set the camera up for some full length shots and here is what I got...
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-NzTwwCD/0/4a804864/L/i-NzTwwCD-L.jpg)
I could scrub and scrub on this barrel to get it shiny but I don't think it is necessary. What do you think?
(Full disclosure--the photo is a 30 shot stack and the contrast is increased to emphasize the carbon in the barrel. It looks clean to the eye. It is a nail driver, dirty.)
Joe
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It's not dirty from current shots, but it's burned out. I'm not sure if you can do anything with this right now... and I'd wouldn't bother.
Just curious - how many rounds went through it already?
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I made another attempt at cleaning it, not much of a change. Again, the photo processing emphasizes the dark areas so the barrel doesn't look very bad to me.
I quit counting rounds a few years ago when I got a 97B"E", but this one only has maybe 15k rounds through it.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-RbLFttJ/0/88489210/L/i-RbLFttJ-L.jpg)
I think the last time I shot it, it was still well under 2" at 50 yards from a rest with a red dot. I don't remember the 100 yard group size, but it is usually close to 4" if I'm having a good day. I didn't think it was possible to shoot out a low load 9mm barrel.
Joe
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I made another attempt at cleaning it, not much of a change. Again, the photo processing emphasizes the dark areas so the barrel doesn't look very bad to me.
I quit counting rounds a few years ago when I got a 97B"E", but this one only has maybe 15k rounds through it.
I think the last time I shot it, it was still well under 2" at 50 yards from a rest with a red dot. I don't remember the 100 yard group size, but it is usually close to 4" if I'm having a good day. I didn't think it was possible to shoot out a low load 9mm barrel.
Joe
hmm interesting. 15K? ???
I've checked mine (P-01). It has around 11K now. Do not see any burned out spots, just single dots... I'm using regular branded ammo 115gr, 124gr.. Barrel cleaned after each shooting using "One Shot Cleaner".
What ammo are you using and what cleaning solvent?
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I've heard some folks leave their barrels to soak submerged in Hoppe's #9 for a day B4 cleaning with brush, then patch(s). I haven't tried it but wondering if I should do this periodically?
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I've heard some folks leave their barrels to soak submerged in Hoppe's #9 for a day B4 cleaning with brush, then patch(s). I haven't tried it but wondering if I should do this periodically?
I have done this quite a bit in the past, and it seems to work alright. I have a tall narrow cylindrical glass jar with a plastic lid, actually one that prepared horseradish came in, that I cleaned out and partially filled with Hoppes #9 bore solvent, which I bought a quart of for under 10$. After a trip to the range, I would first wipe my P-07 and Sig P290 barrels down with dry cloth to get the loose fouling off, then submerge both of them at once in the jar for several hours, sometimes overnight.
It definitely helps to melt the baked-on carbon and makes it easy to wipe off with minimal scrubbing. Not exactly sure how well it works on the lead and copper fouling but probably okay. I would re-use the same jar of solvent several times... you can see that it gets darker with use, probably has a fair amount of toxic lead dissolved in it, maybe less chemically effective over time... eventually needs to be poured out and replaced.
I have stopped using this method more recently. I started treating my barrels with Eezox, which makes the carbon easier to wipe off in the first place. Then, for a deep cleaning and copper / lead removal, I wet patches with a combination of Hoppes #9 solvent and Kroil, wipe the barrel several times with that, then let it sit for hours as needed. This uses a lot less solvent, and you get to see on your patches when you wipe out the solvent, if they are still turning blue / green, to know whether you need to soak them again to get more copper out. Once they're clean, I degrease them with acetone and re-treat them with Eezox. I also use this same method on my rifle barrels.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I may try soaking the barrel and then cleaning it again. I really think it is just carbon, but I could be wrong. Again, the photograph greatly exaggerates the density of the rough spots in the barrel. The light source is at the end of the barrel, so some of what we see in the photo is shadow. Plus, with the photo stacking technique needed to get everything in focus over the length of the barrel, there is some chance for overlap, resulting in further exaggeration. I took this photo several times before I got the lint from the cleaning patches out. The tiny threads were tack sharp, however, and very distracting.
This is the barrel that was in the gun when I made all the 100-200 yard P-09 videos shown in my YouTube channel JoeMustang99. I haven't shot it much since getting the 97B"E" and the P-10 pistols. The P-10F barrel is just as good at the range, and looks to be manufactured using exactly the same techniques. I sure hope so. The P-10S 3.5" barrel is the one I should be studying, however. The P-10S has taken over 1st place in my favorites list after getting the results I got at 200 yards. Unbelievable. Modern manufacturing techniques are phenomenal.
I also have a regular Lyman borescope that I can use to get a right angle view, greatly magnified. Last time I checked the bore, that stuff looked like carbon, not surface damage. But I'll look again. If I can get a good shot of the P-10S barrel for comparison, I'll do that, too. It has maybe 2k rounds through it.
Joe
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If I look carefully after a very thorough bore cleaning; although the flats are spotless the grooves still seem to have a little bit of roughness and crud especially in the lower corners of groove.
It would be interesting to have a similar image of a brand new barrel as a comparative starting point. Although the flats and corners would look sharp and polished I suspect that even a new barrel will look a bit rough in the grooves from the manufacturing process but with zero crud buildup?
However, I'm not sure if a small amount of roughness/crud in the grooves has any material effect on bullet trajectory or speed. The idea of the twist is to get the bullet spinning which helps stabilize it's trajectory.
Joe, If anyone could tell us I would think it would be you. ;)
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Are the dark spots pits with crud built up in them? Looks almost like an old M1917 barrel I've got (not nearly as bad, but the same look to it.)
Not sure what would pit a P09 barrel. They are supposed to be pretty hard.
Did you (very closely) look at the barrel when it was new to make sure it wasn't like this new?
I've always been impressed by how quickly my P07 and P09 barrels clean up vs. the CZ75/P01 barrels. Even with lead bullets the P07 shines up nicely after a brushing with Hoppes #9 followed by a few patches.
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Joe, If anyone could tell us I would think it would be you. ;)
Thanks, Vinny, but I am a self-proclaimed expert in SHOOTING the pistol, and also have expertise in avoiding cleaning anything more than firing pin holes, chambers, and breech faces! :)
"Not going to clean it, might ruin it." is usually all I can conclude as I drive home from the range after a good long distance (100-200 yards) result.
Joe
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I recall some of the old-timers telling me they cleaned their rifle bores by shooting more bullets thru them. ;D
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So, here is the 3.5" P-10S barrel, before doing any cleaning at all. Photo stacking and photo processing similar to the P-09 barrel photos. Next I will clean this one, kinda, and reshoot it.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-n74TrsK/0/a0122dcf/L/i-n74TrsK-L.jpg)
Joe
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Well, that didn't take long. I started with Kroil and a brush, then Hoppe's and brush, then a few dry patches. Here is the P-10S barrel after cleaning. I hope I didn't ruin it! :)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-JcFf3kC/0/1c2176de/L/i-JcFf3kC-L.jpg)
The Hoppe's was much more effective in removing what I think is carbon than the Kroil is. I think all I have to do on the P-09 barrel is clean it again with the Hoppe's. The P-10S barrel looks fine to me.
Joe
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Yup, that P10S barrel is burned out too. ;D ;D ;D
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Some JB bore paste will clean that barrel and keep deposits from building up.
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Thanks, I have used the JB Bore paste on the .22, but very rarely on the 9mm. I may give it a try.
Here is the P-09 barrel after a few passes with a brush and Hoppe's, then a few patches. I think all I really need to do is soak the barrel in solvent long enough to dissolve the carbon that is left.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Bx4mwGP/0/50ca176d/L/i-Bx4mwGP-L.jpg)
I might try a little JB Bore paste after I see if I can get the remaining carbon out with solvent alone. Pretty sure the barrel is OK. Keep in mind that the way I'm doing these photos exaggerates the dark deposits.
Joe
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Here is the P-09 barrel after a few passes with a brush and Hoppe's, then a few patches. I think all I really need to do is soak the barrel in solvent long enough to dissolve the carbon that is left.
Joe
Yeah, Joe. Give it a try and let us know if does it help. I am curious if there is anything that helps this barrel.
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I can understand a build up in the grooves, but with the jacket scraping down the lands every shot, how do you get a build up of powder residue/carbon on them?
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Before trying something abrasive, I think I would try M-Pro 7 as a penetrating residue cleaner; then an overnight barrel soak in Hoppe's. If it's copper fouling there's Hoppe's Elite Copper Terminator.
But I'm interested in learning what works; and the camera seems to tell the results.
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What is Photo stacking?
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What is Photo stacking?
The only way to get the length of the barrel in focus from chamber to muzzle is to take 50 photos with the focus point moved a few mm between shots and then merge all of the in-focus portions of each photo in to one finished "stacked" photo. For these photos, I'm using a vise to hold the barrel and a tripod to hold the camera. I'm using a camera that will automatically increment the focus distance so it takes less than 10 seconds to take 100 photos. Then I copy the photos to my notebook computer, load them up in Helicon Focus 7 stacking program, cull out the bad shots, then hit "render" and the software does the rest. Save the stack file as a .tiff, go in to DxO Photolab 3, crop slightly, increase the contrast, save as a .jpg, then upload the finished .jpg file to SmugMug, get a link to use on this forum, paste the link in to my smart a-- post.
My P-09 barrel has been sitting in Hoppe's for 2 hours, I think I am going to go run some patches and see what else I can get out.
Joe
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My P-09 barrel has been sitting in Hoppe's for 2 hours, I think I am going to go run some patches and see what else I can get out.
Joe
I bet there's a lot of extra clean guns these days, as well as better organized reloading areas, clean cars, pruned shrubs, about any chore that normally gets put off is getting done right by those stuck around the house. ;)
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So here is where I am after a couple of hours more in the Hoppe's. Next is to let it soak for longer, then lots of brushing, then photograph the bore again. Last thing to try is JB Bore paste.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-FvSmXNM/0/a9fcb4d5/L/i-FvSmXNM-L.jpg)
It looks to me like it cleaned up a little more, but not as much as I was hoping.
Joe
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Side by side, start on the left, current after cleaning right.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-RbLFttJ/0/88489210/M/i-RbLFttJ-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-FvSmXNM/0/a9fcb4d5/M/i-FvSmXNM-M.jpg)
It is impossible to get the shot exactly at the same angle each time the barrel is removed from the vise.
And here are two shots taken Friday morning after an overnight soak in Hoppe's Gun Cleaner (not #9) 10 strokes with a brush and 4 patches.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-QPnkh5d/0/cc836680/M/i-QPnkh5d-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-SBtCWL7/0/c938192d/M/i-SBtCWL7-M.jpg)
I think all I have done is documented what a lot of folks already knew--solvent takes some time and effort to get the carbon buildup to break up enough so that it can be removed. I'm guilty of just not cleaning the bore often enough and letting it go too long without cleaning. For a match gun.
Joe
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Side by side, start on the left, current after cleaning right.
It is impossible to get the shot exactly at the same angle each time the barrel is removed from the vise.
Joe
Much better. Whatever left looks like erosion. So what was the whole procedure?
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Jurek--There may be a little erosion, won't know until I let it soak and do some more brushing/patching. Please remember--the photos exaggerate the darker areas in the bore. Whatever is left in the bore right now is very thin.
Also, I don't think the accuracy was off in this barrel, even in its pre-clean condition. I am pretty sure that, with a few rounds of remedial P-09 trigger control, I could shoot some good groups again with this pistol. When I get the chance, I'll try it. I've only needed to replace one pistol barrel, and that was a .22 Kadet, and it was only really eroded/rough in the chamber and leede area.
Joe
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Jurek--There may be a little erosion, won't know until I let it soak and do some more brushing/patching. Please remember--the photos exaggerate the darker areas in the bore. Whatever is left in the bore right now is very thin.
Also, I don't think the accuracy was off in this barrel, even in its pre-clean condition. I am pretty sure that, with a few rounds of remedial P-09 trigger control, I could shoot some good groups again with this pistol. When I get the chance, I'll try it. I've only needed to replace one pistol barrel, and that was a .22 Kadet, and it was only really eroded/rough in the chamber and leede area.
Joe
OK. I'm wondering if you find any better result after next soak/brush procedure.
Your pictures are perfect. BTW... remind me James Bond's opening sequence ;)
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Nice work Joe!
I've been thinking an overnight bath in an ounce of Hoppe's is worth a pound of elbow grease. ;)
I guess we'll see tomorrow.
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I added two Friday morning photos to the other 2 photos 4 posts up.
I am having some minor problems with my Lyman borescope so I can't provide good photos of the right angle view, but I was able to see enough to conclude that what is left in the bore now really is some very small pits. These become exaggerated in the photos because of the shadow cast from the light at the end of the barrel. Today, I will see if I can get some shots of the muzzle end of the barrel, maybe one land and groove at the very end. I didn't see much of what I could call carbon when looking at the (poorly lit) Lyman borescope screen.
I don't think the pitting is significant or will hurt the accuracy of the barrel. I bet there has been some pitting develop since first shooting the gun.
Joe
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I'm guilty of just not cleaning the bore often enough and letting it go too long without cleaning
True
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Jurek--I would show you my 75B Kadet host frame but I think it would make you sick. :) :)
I did find a photo of one 3-1/2" 5 shot group at 100 yards with the P-09 barrel shown above. I did a video of it, so I know the sequence of the shots.
I may not have cleaned it since I shot this group. Just kidding!!
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/Pistols-miscellaneous-2016/i-pkPPDft/0/d4619af8/L/5B063123-L.jpg)
Joe
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Jurek--I would show you my 75B Kadet host frame but I think it would make you sick. :) :)
I did find a photo of one 3-1/2" 5 shot group at 100 yards with the P-09 barrel shown above. I did a video of it, so I know the sequence of the shots.
I may not have cleaned it since I shot this group. Just kidding!!
Joe
P-09 at 100 yards.. pretty impressive... I wish I could do this at 100 feet :P
I'm not a fan of shiny clear barrel, firearm is a tool, so it has to be dirty sometimes.
But you may be right not showing crazy dirty handgun ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/tudyySE.png)
Hopefully you don't keep something like this for few months ;D :D ;)
BTW: This is probably the dirtiest handgun posted on Internet. Photo by D&D Gunsmiths, Michigan
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Jurek...I warned you!
This is my 75B frame that I use as a Kadet host. Because it is a .22, it gets filthy very quickly. I tend to add oil and continue on. Gun has over 50k rounds 90% with the Kadet mounted. Pretty sure I took this photo right after winning a local bullseye match. I probably cleaned it (full disassembly) the following spring. If it was an odd numbered year.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/Pistols-miscellaneous-2016/i-fpNJrH4/0/8df5fccb/M/AA274840-M.jpg)
Joe
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Jurek...I warned you!
This is my 75B frame that I use as a Kadet host. Because it is a .22, it gets filthy very quickly. I tend to add oil and continue on. Gun has over 50k rounds 90% with the Kadet mounted. Pretty sure I took this photo right after winning a local bullseye match. I probably cleaned it (full disassembly) the following spring. If it was an odd numbered year.
Joe
;D ;D ;D ;D
OK, Joe.. I'm not gonna puke ;)
Dirty gun means gun is in use... As long as you clean it, that's what has to be done ...
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I've still got some barrel cleaning to do. Here is a photo of the bore near the muzzle. Now there are some artifacts in this photo from the stacking procedure--this is 36 flash photos combined in to one--so don't make too big a deal out of it. For example, the end of the barrel does not appear to be this rough in normal light. But the photo clearly shows some lead that I suppose needs to be removed. The pits are so small they are no more significant than the original machining marks.
So, I'm not done yet. Gun should shoot pretty good if I am successful. Wait a minute! It wasn't too bad filthy! I've included two single frame shots heavily cropped to show you what the barrel really looks like.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-rpFWQQ7/0/2a728a36/M/i-rpFWQQ7-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-JJzm43C/0/388c1152/M/i-JJzm43C-M.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-RmKM3DL/0/77404bdf/M/i-RmKM3DL-M.jpg)
Joe
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I had a buddy in college that bought a nice High Standard target pistol. He only shot Eley match .22 ammo in it.
He could get a box (50 rounds even back in the early 80's, hah hah!) through it no problem. After that first 50 rounds he'd get a few more and then it would start failing to go into battery. He'd stop shooting, unload it, pull the slide off, brush/wipe it out, lube it up, put it back together and get another 50 rounds and a few more through it before having to repeat the cleaning/lubing thing. I guess that thing was pretty tightly fitted together.
My Ruger Mk1 5.5" bull barrel would run all afternoon, box after box, without having to be cleaned/lubed.
Guns are funny things, some times.
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I carried my Ruger 10/22 to an outdoor range with my son last year, where we plinked steel targets in a shooting gallery to the tune of around 300 rounds in an hour, using mostly Remington Thunderbolt Lead Round Nose in a bulk box. It was fairly clean already... maybe not pristine, but pretty clean.
I never had too much of an issue with these rounds excessively fouling in this rifle before, at least by 22 LR standards, but this time when I got the rifle home and tried to run my carbon fiber cleaning rod through, from the muzzle, with a slotted tip and patch cloth, it ran into something hard and wouldn't budge. So I removed the tip and just tried to run the rod through with nothing, and it still couldn't make it through. The barrel was partially obstructed near the chamber. I tried an Otis cable from the breech and couldn't get that through either.
I fiddled around with this thing... sticking qtips soaked in Kroil and Hoppes #9 into the chamber, trying to loosen it up. Finally I managed to get a bronze brush inserted threads-first into the chamber and past the obstruction, by tapping it in with a hammer, then screwed my rod onto it from the muzzle, and managed to pull it through... a decent sized chunk of lead came out, shiny and rounded in the shape of the barrel on the outer surface. I guess it started fouling, and then every lead round was laying down additional layers as it squeezed past the fouling.
I considered us lucky that we didn't blow the gun up with an obstructed barrel that day, and I completely avoid cheap lead round nose .22LR now... I try to stick with the copper CCI Mini Mags now.
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Don't think plated .22 rimfire ammo won't lead a barrel.
Worst leaded up barrel I ever fought to get clean was messed up with Federal plated .22. Ruined multiple brushes, had a small mountain of dirty patches near the end and finally got it clean by making patches out of the Birchwood Casey lead removal cloth and running them through the barrel over and over. Used up almost the whole pack on that one barrel.
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Right, it can still happen, especially since most copper .22LR isn't actually plated or jacketed, but only washed with a very thin layer of copper. After the problem I had last year, I went around reading what I could about it on places like the Rimfire Central forums. The consensus seems to be that lead round nose works better for high end target guns with custom-lapped barrels, but would contribute more to fouling in rougher factory barrels.
I think I have my .22 barrel in pretty good shape at this point. It has cleaned up easily after my last couple of range trips. I'm using Shooter's Choice Lead Remover, Kroil, and Hoppes #9 on it with VFG pellets. If I have problems with it again I'm going to polish it with some J-B paste I bought for that purpose.
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Finally found my ChoreBoy pads, Hoppe's #9, etc. One more attempt to get the remaining lead out. Also have a new borescope (cheap) coming. This will be the 3rd one I've tried. Might have some results on Sunday, not sure yet. Barrel really is good to go now. But I have time.
Joe
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Don't think plated .22 rimfire ammo won't lead a barrel.
Worst leaded up barrel I ever fought to get clean was messed up with Federal plated .22. Ruined multiple brushes, had a small mountain of dirty patches near the end and finally got it clean by making patches out of the Birchwood Casey lead removal cloth and running them through the barrel over and over. Used up almost the whole pack on that one barrel.
Haven't shot my 22's much the past two years as 9mm has been so accessible. But the price of ammo has already almost doubled in the past month so I guess it's time to bring out the 22's again.
I guess the moral of these stories is that cheap ammo ain't so cheap. ::)
I finally burned up the rest of my Remington Thunderbolts (purchased during the last ammo crunch) in a forgiving Ruger SR22. The shrapnel off those things is nasty! Just cleaned the pistol up thoroughly and sold it through my LGS.
Still have some Aguila copper 'plated' HV round nose I'll run through my SW22 Victory. Fortunately I had restocked my CCI Mini-Mag stash exclusively for the Ruger Mk IV.
Now....cleaning, re-springing, and waiting patiently for the ranges to open again.
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Few more days and Joe will show us perfectly clean barrel ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/avp9ryy.png)
hmmm.. I'm not even sure if such perfection comes out of the box. O0
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Those grooves are kinda narrow but it sure is pretty! Won't see anything like that one at my house. Looks like an art project to me. But it is a fine art project. Good find.
Joe
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If you want to look at some lands/grooves that your mind knows just aren't right but you still have a bit of trouble figuring out why - take a look down the barrel of an M1917 (US .30-06 used in WW1). It is two kinds of "different. #1 is it has 5 lands and grooves. Not the usual 4 or 6. #2 is the rifling is a left hand twist, not the usual right hand twist we are used to seeing.
The cool thing is they are pretty darned accurate. I have no idea why they went that direction with them vs what is "normal" here in the US. Made by Winchester, Remington and Eddystone (a Remington owned company).
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Looks suspiciously like the James Bond opening scene....
(https://i.imgur.com/rGHXOzd.jpg)
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Wobbly--YEP! Art project!
I could fill up those tiny grooves in 20 rounds and then no spin, no hit nothing. The last thing anyone will find here is any kind of art project. Maybe a few bird photos.
Joe
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If you want to look at some lands/grooves that your mind knows just aren't right but you still have a bit of trouble figuring out why - take a look down the barrel of an M1917 (US .30-06 used in WW1). It is two kinds of "different. #1 is it has 5 lands and grooves. Not the usual 4 or 6. #2 is the rifling is a left hand twist, not the usual right hand twist we are used to seeing.
The cool thing is they are pretty darned accurate. I have no idea why they went that direction with them vs what is "normal" here in the US. Made by Winchester, Remington and Eddystone (a Remington owned company).
The P-17 followed the barrel design of the British P-14 and used 5-groove Enfield rifling. P-17 rifles refurbished for use in WWII often had 4-groove RHT replacement barrels.
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If you want to look at some lands/grooves that your mind knows just aren't right but you still have a bit of trouble figuring out why - take a look down the barrel of an M1917 (US .30-06 used in WW1). It is two kinds of "different. #1 is it has 5 lands and grooves. Not the usual 4 or 6. #2 is the rifling is a left hand twist, not the usual right hand twist we are used to seeing.
The cool thing is they are pretty darned accurate. I have no idea why they went that direction with them vs what is "normal" here in the US. Made by Winchester, Remington and Eddystone (a Remington owned company).
The P-17 followed the barrel design of the British P-14 and used 5-groove Enfield rifling. P-17 rifles refurbished for use in WWII often had 4-groove RHT replacement barrels.
So you are saying that the weird rifling is the fault of the British! ;D I have always liked the look of the P-14, something about the rear sight, the bolt handle and the semi pistol grip just dose it for me.
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Well, my new cheap Teslong borescope arrived a day early, so I tested it out on this P-09 barrel. The first clip shows how good I could get the bore with some solvent/brushes/patches, kinda the normal way I have cleaned the barrel in the past. The borescope showed a lot of lead still in the bore, so I decided to try some Hoppe's#9 and brush with ChoreBoy wrapped around it, followed by some 9.3mm VFG pellets with Kroil and JB bore paste. I only used two pellets, maybe 10 passes through the bore for each pellet. Then I solvent cleaned, oiled, patched, and took the second clip in the following video. I'm stopping here, putting the gun back together and plan on shooting it soon. Next is the Kadet followed by the P-10S followup check, just to see what kind of lead buildup there is in it. Let me know what you think.
https://youtu.be/9iKyjZ8vKJw (https://youtu.be/9iKyjZ8vKJw)
Joe
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Joe, That bore-scope really tells the story. Good work!
Do you use lead cast bullets or copper jacketed?
Wondering why there's lead buildup along the lands vs copper. -Vinny
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Good job Joe !
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Nice job. The VFG pellets really do better at getting in the grooves than a usual patch cloth on a jag. I haven't polished my barrels with JB paste yet but I use them as part of my normal cleaning routine, in addition to cotton patch cloths. I like how you can feel and hear them squeaking against the inside of the barrel when they're soaked with Kroil and Hoppes #9... squeaky clean!
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Reply to Vinny...
All box ammo, either the Atlanta Arms 115 JHP or Remington UMC 115 FMJ. I assumed the metal in the video was lead, since it appears silver in color in both these videos and in the previous still photos. I may have put a few rounds of a friend's lead reloads through it at one time. If that is the case, the lead has been there a while.
I am going to go back to the low round count barrels next and check those. Probably the P-10F today, which is about as good a shooter as this P-09 barrel, I'm just not as consistent with the trigger.
Yet. I don't remember shooting any non-jacketed bullets in any of the P-10 pistols.
Joe
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Here is the video I made this morning of the P-10F barrel. Not quite sure what to think of this one. The grooves look rough, I think with copper smeared in the chatter marks. But no erosion/corrosion, compared to the P-09 barrel. The little Teslong borescope works almost too well. I can see more than I really want to deal with! I'm open for comments/suggestions. I'll probably just go shoot it the way it is here, at most I'll make one more pass on it with the VFG pellets and a little bore paste.
https://youtu.be/dQkaS4rKr_Y (https://youtu.be/dQkaS4rKr_Y)
I'm pretty sure this one hasn't had any non-jacketed ammo through it.
Joe
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Joe, That borescope image is fantastic.
I've always wondered why I can't seem to get the grooves of my barrels completely clean as they always appear to be rough and dirty. I've suspected that much of the roughness may be from the manufacturing process where they maybe push through a cutter like a broach that leaves the roughness and only the lands get micro polished. Theoretically, as long as the edges of the lands are crisp and work to spin the bullet, the bullet should never come in contact with the bottom of the grooves. Unless we allow the grooves to fill with crud (which yours are clearly NOT) I suspect we should be OK.
However, if the lands are damaged, galled, or filled with lead or copper; that could certainly affect the trajectory. But I suppose as long as it remains consistent the accuracy might not be affected??
Dunno, but your posts have certainly been enlightening. Thanks Joe.
Now for the true test..........Do they shoot better!??
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I definitely don't want to use your borescope on my P07 or P09. I've always been impressed with how smooth/shiny those barrels look to me.
While I might not be happy with the surface of the grooves I can't see them affecting accuracy unless there is enough build up to contact the bullet jacket?? But those chipped corners on the lands would seem to be a magnet for cutting little chunks of bullet jacket off the bullet and depositing them somewhere else in the barrel. And making the use of lead bullets, maybe even coated lead bullets a rough clean up exercise.
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Here is the P-10C barrel, before any deep cleaning attempt. This was taken after my usual cleaning--some solvent, then brush, then patches until clean, then a very light oil patch. Except I skipped the oil patch for the video. This one is easy to see the copper tracks in the grooves. I'm thinking the other gunk is just carbon and not lead. If so, then it should clean up pretty easily with Hoppe's #9, some brushing, then some VFG pellets and some paste. This one also doesn't show any erosion/corrosion like the much older and much abused P-09 barrel. Perhaps the barrel corrodes slowly under the carbon buildup if the carbon isn't removed after shooting? If so, then I'm a barrel abuser.
https://youtu.be/o0zH_5TWNu8 (https://youtu.be/o0zH_5TWNu8)
I'll work on it some this afternoon and then see how much of this I can actually remove--I'm especially interested in successfully getting what I hope is just carbon out. Not too worried about the copper. Its thin, and fills in the rough spots. I think. Any real gunsmiths out there?
I wouldn't subject you guys to all this if there was anything else pressing right now.
Joe
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Joe L, abuser of barrels. They say that admitting it is the first step. ;D
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Ha!
OK, here is the "After" video of the P-10C barrel after about 6 VFG pellets, 20 strokes for each, patch cleaning between with some Hoppe's #9. This worked pretty well. Still some carbon in the grooves, but a lot less than before, and virtually no copper.
https://youtu.be/3eKizaRTdOo (https://youtu.be/3eKizaRTdOo)
I'm done with this one. No more today! But I may stick that borescope in my ears/nose/throat...just for kicks. Video at 10!!
Just kidding!! :) :) :)
Joe
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I think the barrel is happy you can see it smiling if you look close at the 2:27 mark. :)
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Joe, The images from that Teslong Borescope are really good. Incredibly detailed.
I think I'm going to order one on Amazon. The $49 one yes?
Who knows what evil lurks in the dark corners of my gun cabinet. :o
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I've lapped quite a few barrels to remove the roughness, and fire lapped a couple. Lately I've tried dyna-tek bore coat. If you decide to lap, go slow and look at it often. Will make cleaning easy.
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Joe, The images from that Teslong Borescope are really good. Incredibly detailed.
I think I'm going to order one on Amazon. The $49 one yes?
Yes, this one "Teslong Rifle Borescope, Short Focus Gun Barrel Camera with Side-View Mirror.195 inches Caliber for All Barrel Inspection"
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I've lapped quite a few barrels to remove the roughness, and fire lapped a couple. Lately I've tried dyna-tek bore coat. If you decide to lap, go slow and look at it often. Will make cleaning easy.
Skin--I looked in to lapping a .22 Savage rifle once, but decided against it. Never even thought about lapping a pistol barrel.
I think what crud that is left in mine (carbon in chatter marks) is a result of the VFG pellet just not pressing very hard in to the corners of the grooves. Looks like the pellets got everything it had good contact with. What do you think?
Joe
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I think what you are seeing is frosting of the barrel. I've seen this in military rifles and police turn in's with a high round count. I'd call it good and go shootin!
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QC and or barrel finishing can suck. I recently bought a brand new 92x and the barrel looks crudely finished. Add 5K rounds to that and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets scored pretty badly also.
Companies are cranking out 9mms like cheap candy. Lower grade steel or poor barrel finishing are possible.
Crudely finished barrels can catch more debris. This builds up. Moister is held close to the surface. Over time it forms scoring and holds more and more dirt and moisture. Premature barrel wear. You don't need corrosive primers to eventually get this.
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QC and or barrel finishing can suck. I recently bought a brand new 92x and the barrel looks crudely finished. Add 5K rounds to that and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets scored pretty badly also.
Companies are cranking out 9mms like cheap candy. Lower grade steel or poor barrel finishing are possible.
Yeah can't disagree. Recently bought a Beretta M9A3 slide to use on my 92FS so I'd have the replaceable sight option. The slide functions perfectly but the finish leaves a great deal to be desired. Nitriding is in it's future.
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Well, the outdoor range opened back up this morning, so I went. The plan was to shoot the P-09 and P-10C at 25 yards, but I was limited to 22 yards standing single hand due to other folks sharing the same bay (they kept their distance, however). I had not shot anything in over 6 weeks, and my last outing was with the P-10F and only 100 rounds or so then. So, I was a little rusty, to say the least. Windy, 45F temp, sunny, beautiful day.
I only shot bucket Remington UMC 115 FMJ rounds. No Atlanta Arms 115 JHP until I get back up to speed and shoot some consistently good groups with the less expensive ammo. Besides, I want to borescope the bores after shooting JUST the Rem UMC ammo. I'll do the same with the AA 115 JHP later maybe this week, after I get a few more remedial trigger control rounds down range.
So, all the targets below: 22 yards, standing single hand, Rem UMC 115 FMJ, no dry fire, no live fire in 6 weeks, Burris FF3 red dot sights on both pistols. Timed fire pace, roughly 2-4 seconds between shots, no video, nervous happy-to-be-here shooter. No "warmup" rounds.
First the P-10C, which I had not shot in months. The trigger on this one is the best of my P-10 pistols, really good, probably because it has the most rounds through it, by far, of my P-10 series pistols, since I've had it much longer. The target on the left is of the first 20 rounds, shot 5 at a time in less that 20 seconds each. The target on the right is the third target, and I had settled down some by then. The sight is zeroed for the AA 115 ammo at 25 yards, so this pistol always groups low right if I use a center hold with the Rem UMC ammo. I changed to a 9 ring at about 10:30 hold for the second target shown. This was a good result for today, with this ammo and lack of range time.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3mggkJB/0/d818b142/L/i-3mggkJB-L.jpg)
So, I put a total of 80 rounds through the P-10C, smiling with every shot, even the ones I pulled low due to rusty crummy trigger control. It was just so good to be out shooting the pistol again. Next, I moved the battery from the red dot on the P-10C to the P-09 so that I could shoot it. I don't know about you, but making the transition from a striker fired trigger to a good ol' hammer gun takes a few rounds, normally. But I have many thousands of rounds through this P-09 and it took about 20 rounds to get my P-09 trigger finger maybe half way back. First 20 rounds on the left, second 20 on the right. A couple of years of intensive bullseye practice helped. I can usually shoot this pistol pretty well every time I take it out, after 20 rounds or so. Same today.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vpvNV2G/0/0cabb71d/L/i-vpvNV2G-L.jpg)
I put a 100 rounds total through the P-09 before packing up. So 180 rounds total for the morning. No .22 Kadet. No steel guns. All polymer, but with "trigger finger and grip training ammo" instead of the good stuff. Good stuff can wait until I make some progress on remedial trigger control training.
The guns are good to go, after I replace all the old sight batteries. I will record some bore videos later today. I have already taken a look and can tell you there is some copper and carbon buildup already in the barrels, even after just 80-100 rounds. I'll make a video before I actually clean the barrels, if I decide to clean them at all right now. I'm thinking just keep shooting them this week.
Joe
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Early this morning, before running any patches through the P-10C and P-09, I ran the borescope down the bores of each pistol barrel (still in the slides). The result shows what 80 rounds through the P-10C and 100 rounds (of Remington UMC 115 FMJ) through the P-09 leave in the bores. I doubled the speed of the borescope recording then added the narration at normal speed. I still need to make some adapters for the borescope to hold it to the side on the mirror shots and to hold it in the center with the axial shots, mirror removed.
https://youtu.be/-zTwpsJqKUs (https://youtu.be/-zTwpsJqKUs)
Next, I think I will not clean the barrels, instead just go shoot a box of AA 115 JHP through each pistol from a rest at 50 or 100 yards and see where I am, then borescope the barrels again. I may try to do that this afternoon, with the P-09 first, as it is obviously the one I would think MIGHT have a problem with all the tiny pits in the last inch or so of the muzzle end.
If the P-09 shoots perfectly yet is still filthy when I borescope it again, then I am going back to my "clean it after a few thousand rounds or during every lockdown, whichever comes first" practice.
Joe
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Joe, That's really cool.
I had to order me one of those bore scopes yesterday. ;D
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Just for reference, here is what my .22 Kadet barrel looks like after cleaning and after sitting in a range bag for a few days with a light coat of oil. Everything that is left in the barrel is loose lint and maybe some dust, but I couldn't get it out with a blast of air, so I am going to shoot it as is.
https://youtu.be/IDcMLkvF0J0 (https://youtu.be/IDcMLkvF0J0)
This is my second Kadet barrel. The first one developed a rough chamber and I started having some failures to extract. I admit, I didn't spend much time trying to smooth out the chamber area as the bore had some pitting near the muzzle end. Not that it was affecting anything, I just decided not to take a chance on it. After all, this is my bullseye match pistol, not some lowly can plinker!! :) :)
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How many rounds through the old Kadet barrel that you replaced Joe L?
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How many rounds through the old Kadet barrel that you replaced Joe L?
Somewhere between 30k and 40k, can't remember exactly, and I probably replaced it early, if I had just taken a Dremel to the chamber. I didn't want to mess with it after that many rounds. A new one wasn't that expensive, maybe $120 or so. Replacing the barrel fixed the problem, without any loss of accuracy for the new barrel.
Joe
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P-10F and Kadet results today. I'm happy with these, considering the group size is due to my out-of-practice trigger finger and hand/eye coordination. The barrels are fine. Both standing, single hand, 22 yards, gusty crosswind, sunny, red dot sight, cheap ammo.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-W9n2bJ6/0/c9e1a3a3/M/i-W9n2bJ6-M.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-5CtJTpN/0/e127f4ee/M/i-5CtJTpN-M.jpg)
"TC" on the P-10F target, 3 o'clock, 7 ring, is short for trigger control or lack thereof. Golly, that P-10F is nice. And the Kadet is ALWAYS good.
Joe
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Joe,
I received the Teslong short focus borescope model you recommended above ^^ $49 Amazon and it's awesome! Came with 3 different size 90 degree mirrors, smallest for 22 caliber and two a little larger.
Easy to hook up; I'm still learning how to navigate the software; figured out how to record snapshots and vids.
Here's a snap from my newer P-365 with only 500 rounds after my 'normal' cleaning and it was surprising to see how much copper was left on the lands.
I obviously don't have your experience or skill at recording and posting; but I can see how it's a useful tool to see what my cleanings might be missing. :o
My first image:
(https://i.imgur.com/aQHk6l6.jpg?1)
Thanks so much Joe for your interesting postings! I got something fun to occupy time during Covid and strive for.
Now, will it help me shoot any better.....THAT's gonna take a lot more than a good cleaning. HaHa! O0
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Vinny--glad you got yours and that it works!
You will need to experiment with the location of the mirrors on the end of the probe. Here is the secret. The focus distance from the lens is fixed, just for an example, at 0.5 inch. That distance is fixed whether the mirror is used or not. For a .22, the mirror needs to be very near the end of the threads so that the very short distance perpindicular to the bore plus the distance to the lens from the mirror is 0.5 inch. For a 9mm bore, the mirror will need to be screwed in so that more distance across the bore can be used. I tend to rest the mirror on one side of the bore and look at the other side, simply because I don't have a way to center the probe in the bore.
I got three mirrors with mine, but they look identical. I'll look more closely!
Joe
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I got to shoot my P-10F on Thursday, 128 rounds of Rem UMC 115 FMJ. After I got home, I decided to 'scope the bore before doing anything in the way of cleaning the bore. Next I ran a wet Hoppe's #9 patch, let it sit a few minutes, then ran 4-5 dry patches through the bore until they started coming out clean. Another borescope recording. Next I used some bore paste on a 9.3mm soft VFG pellet and ran that through the bore 10 times, then 2 more the same way, then some solvent and some dry patches. Another borescope recording. Here is a video I made combining all three videos.
https://youtu.be/kV9oLcijcDU (https://youtu.be/kV9oLcijcDU)
So, even 128 rounds can cancel out a good hard detailed cleaning job, to the point where it looks as bad as after several hundred. Maybe. I hope to be able to shoot enough to find out in the coming weeks. I really enjoyed shooting the P-10F on Thursday. And the Kadet, which is next on the borescope adventure.
Joe
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Vinny--glad you got yours and that it works!
You will need to experiment with the location of the mirrors on the end of the probe. Here is the secret. The focus distance from the lens is fixed, just for an example, at 0.5 inch. That distance is fixed whether the mirror is used or not. For a .22, the mirror needs to be very near the end of the threads so that the very short distance perpindicular to the bore plus the distance to the lens from the mirror is 0.5 inch. For a 9mm bore, the mirror will need to be screwed in so that more distance across the bore can be used. I tend to rest the mirror on one side of the bore and look at the other side, simply because I don't have a way to center the probe in the bore.
I got three mirrors with mine, but they look identical. I'll look more closely!
Joe
Great tip about adjusting the side mirror focal length by amount it's screwed onto the borescope.
I have some Hoppe's Elite Copper Terminator I haven't been using, and I can see now it's probably needed at least occasionally. Once copper or lead get burnished in it's undoubtedly harder to remove.
I don't shoot long-range super-accurate bull's eye like you do, so I don't need to get too OCD about it. Just want pistol reliability, reasonable SD accuracy, and barrel durability to extend it's useful life.
Thanks again Joe! -Vinny
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And here is the video of the Kadet barrel after 80 rounds, before and after cleaning. I don't know what to think about all of this. Slow loading to YouTube today, so no telling when this will finish.
https://youtu.be/o5rhBC9xFsA (https://youtu.be/o5rhBC9xFsA)
Joe
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You guys are KILLING me. My OCD is now raging completely out of control.
Between this thread and the LTT video I've completely changed my cleaning techniques. I bought a glass bread pan to soak my pistol barrels and small parts in Hoppe's #9 for a while before running a bore brush and patches through them. Wow did I remove a lot of schmutz that I never knew was hiding in there. I used to run a patch through the barrel until clean without any 'pre-soak.' From this point forward there will always be a substantial barrel pre-soak.
I've ordered Mil-Comm TW-25 grease, a Teslong borescope, JB Bore cleaning compound, and a crap-load of Tipton Cleaning pellets in different calibers. I already have some Kroil.
I have a real love/hate relationship with this forum...
:D
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BKMetz--
I decided to step away from the borescope for a few days and just shoot some of my older less used pistols. I put up two targets from yesterday in the "day at the range" forum. I did break from a long standing tradition of not cleaning the barrels when I got home. I removed the barrels, ran a patch soaked with Kroil through each one, let them sit for 30 minutes or so, then ran a couple of dry patches, then a brush with patch wrapped and soaked many times but only chamber to muzzle direction, then some more dry patches, then one with a little oil. Then put the pistol back together and in to the safe. All done.
Except I couldn't stand it. I got the barrels out in the evening and ran the borescope down the barrels and there was still a little carbon on the sides of the grooves, but the lands were clean and I didn't see any boulders. And the axial view without the mirror with the borescope entering the chamber end looked smooth with none of the flip ups from running the brush towards the chamber, not that it really matters after one round through the barrel.
I think what I need to learn to do is to differentiate a buildup that can actually affect the sealing of the bullet to the barrel from discoloration and film that is no more significant than the tooling chatter and marks left in the barrel from the factory. So far, all the older barrels that even have a little pitting still seem to shoot exceptionally well. It makes sense. Tiny pits don't affect the sealing. A large buildup of crud in the leede area (which none of mine have) could swage the bullet down as it leaves the case and perhaps leave a deep gouge in the bullet that would not be sealed at the muzzle end with no crud. I guess. Maybe.
When you get your borescope, test it without the mirror by viewing some common objects you have handy, like some hammer or sear parts, a pocket knife blade, a file, a toe nail, bullet surface, something you can relate to and see with you naked eye for perspective. Don't put it down a gun barrel first or you will cry.
Joe
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Thanks Joe for the 'short focus' borescope model recommendation and the 'tip' to adjust the mirror's focal length by how much it's screwed on. Works great.
One of my 22 pistols I haven't used in several years had been stored after cleaning during one Summer in my garage lock-box. Mistake! That's a problem of an overflowing gun safe in the A/C area of our home. ::) I've since sold off some so I can fit 'em all inside now, but I missed that one.
The borescope revealed that it had some fine rust due to humidity. A brushing with CLP and follow-up patch wipes seemed to get most of it out. However; I don't want to over-clean to the point I start rounding the sharp corners of the bore grooves and loose the 'bite' of the bullet twist.
(https://i.imgur.com/qc7HQ1a.jpg?1)
I think I need to just go shoot it, now that our range has re-opened; and then do one final cleaning and oiling.
The borescope does really help to see what's going on; but I agree that we must be careful to not 'magnify' the problems by over-cleaning and going into OCD mode. ;)
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Vinny--glad you got yours. Did they include three mirrors or one? My three all look to be the same. I may make a modification for one of them--I may bend the mirror some so that the light doesn't reflect off the flat bore surface at exactly 90 degrees. I don't want to do all three that way because I don't think the bent mirror can make it down a .22 barrel. I may try it later today.
Seriously, I think the borescope will be helpful in finding serious carbon build up in the barrel, but I am not going to worry about a thin layer of copper or carbon discoloration, especially if it comes back in just a few rounds anyway.
Joe
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So today I got out my 97B"E", ran a patch and some solvent, then dry patches, and then the borescope. Big mistake! Lots of copper and carbon! Went and checked my records and it looks like I shot the 75B 9mm 10x CGW bushing gun in a bullseye match in Jan 2019, and haven't shot the 97B"E" in a year and a half. I received my P-10F (thank you CZ Forum!) in January 2019 and it looks like the centerfire guns I shot in 2019 were the P-10 pistols and that is it. No 97B"E" due to no scheduled bullseye matches and to me moving and finishing up work before retiring. Plus I had a new pistol to compare to my two P-09's. I just didn't get to shoot much in 2019 at all.
I don't recall ever really scrubbing this barrel like I have the 9mm pistols over the last week or so. But I am catching up on 97B"E", and am letting it soak in Kroil overnight before hitting it again in the morning. And yes, I'm running the brushes both direction in this barrel. Too much stuff to get out of there to just run it one direction. If I get it clean once, I'll keep cleaning it after ever range session from now on. Video tomorrow after I finish. At one time, this pistol was just as good as the P-09, but I think I got frustrated with it in 2018 and went back to the 9mm instead of just working out why the gun was a little off. I might have just let it go too long. If that is the case, this will be the only pistol that was ailing from lack of cleaning.
Joe
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Vinny--glad you got yours. Did they include three mirrors or one? My three all look to be the same. I may make a modification for one of them--I may bend the mirror some so that the light doesn't reflect off the flat bore surface at exactly 90 degrees. I don't want to do all three that way because I don't think the bent mirror can make it down a .22 barrel. I may try it later today.
Seriously, I think the borescope will be helpful in finding serious carbon build up in the barrel, but I am not going to worry about a thin layer of copper or carbon discoloration, especially if it comes back in just a few rounds anyway.
Joe
Joe, I did get three mirror tips. I thought they were different sizes but it turned out they're all the same OD about .197. It's easy to lose one so I'm glad to have two spares.
Also, I discovered there's a small light intensity adjustment wheel on the connector body (about 8" from the USB end). It helps to reduce glare when you get the bores really shiny. ;D
I shot the 22 pistol today with bore that had rusted very slightly from a summer of storage in my garage locker. It shot really well so there's apparently no harm done. Cleaned it again after today and it still looks slightly discolored but I'm not going to fret. Just needs more bullets run through I guess. O0
(https://i.imgur.com/kugqhHf.jpg?1)
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Vinny--your .22 looks great compared to my .22!
I took the 97B"E" to the range on Thursday. I have put together a video with the before shooting borescope recording mentioned a post or two up, and then after shooting and after just a few patches to remove the loose carbon. It should be viewable by 5:30 CDT. I hope.
Vinny--I made some changes to the borescope procedure that are documented in this video, also. Cheap and easy. Take a look.
https://youtu.be/rPOILsZBF7c (https://youtu.be/rPOILsZBF7c)
I don't have any VFG pellets for the .45's so I am going to clean with solvent and a brush. I ordered some #000 rubber stoppers today, they should fit the 9mm and the .45 barrels. Nothing for the .22 yet.
Joe
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How are you guys differentiating copper deposits from light rust?
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How are you guys differentiating copper deposits from light rust?
poorly!
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How are you guys differentiating copper deposits from light rust?
poorly!
Good Question.
In my case this particular barrel had what appeared to be fine rust powder on the first few patches I ran through after removing from storage and before firing. My bad for leaving in my garage locker with high humidity for one summer. Although locked and sealed in a plastic gun case, as temps dropped overnight, condensation undoubtedly formed in the barrel.
After extensive cleaning it still had a brownish discoloration on both the lands and grooves (as seen in image below).
If it was copper that had smeared off the bullet jacket, I would think it would be primarily streaked on just the lands. I have old tools that exhibit this slight brownish discoloration. As long as I keep a bit of oil preservative on 'em, they work just as good as new. But I suppose I could run some pellets through with some JB compound to shine it up but I honestly doubt it would shoot any better as long as the bore is clean of deposits and edges of twist are still sharp.
(https://i.imgur.com/kugqhHf.jpg?1)
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Thank you for the input. Ill run a few patches down the barrel in question and see what it tells me. Talk of this subject has made me question my potential laziness in the dry climate that i reside in. Good reason to play with my CZs. ;D
poorly!
Eheh, fun stuff.
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Tok36--When I lived in West Texas I didn't have to be particularly careful with oiling the bores to keep rust from forming. Now that I am in a much more humid climate in central Texas, I am going to be a little more careful. But just a little.
Vinny--have you tried the reflector shown in the 97 barrel video yet?
Also, our barrels look great, even with a little copper and carbon. I made the mistake of going to the Hawkeye website and looking at some of their examples. "We got nuttin' to worry about."
I put my conclusions based on a couple of weeks with the borescope at the end of the 97 video above.
And, some of you will be surprised to read this---I actually cleaned the barrels of every pistol I've shot in the last week, pretty soon after I got home, even if I planned to go shoot them again the next day. I've never done that before. Probably a good idea in this climate.
Joe
Joe
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Joe, here in central texas, humidity and wild temp swings can be brutal on guns. I stopped using the plastic rods that go in the barrel to stack in the safe. Moisture would condense on the rods and go into the gun barrels. Lesson learned.
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Skin--then it is even worse than I thought! Thanks for the tip. All of mine are bagged but without any desssicant in the bag or in the safe.
Joe
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Skin--then it is even worse than I thought! Thanks for the tip. All of mine are bagged but without any desssicant in the bag or in the safe.
Joe
Yes, That's why I now keep my safe(s) and guns inside the home where A/C keeps temperature constant and humidity low.
But I've also realized just cleaning the bores with Hoppe's #9 which evaporates may not provide enough long-term storage rust/corrosion protection. I'm now wondering what bore lube/protectant I should be using especially for those pistols that don't see regular action.
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I'm now wondering what bore lube/protectant I should be using especially for those pistols that don't see regular action.
EEZOX
Not exactly bore lube, but this one has the best results as preservative.
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Well Joe, when you started talking about the bore scope I just thought, "Nah, I don't need one of those."
Then I got this Storm Lake .40 barrel for the M&P. The range report from the other day mentions the issues with that. Now I've got a bore scope on order. I figured I might as well have before and after pictures/videos of the chamber and barrel. I'll wait till I get it figured out and get some good pictures before I polish the chamber further and start lapping the barrel.
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M1A4ME--"Don't aim your borescope at anything you don't intend to clean."
Jurek--I have two cans of Eezox in the shop now. I'll probably try it on the Kadet first, since it is the one most sensitive to high viscosity lubricants.
Here is the video of the three barrels (P-09/P-10F/P-10C) that I finished up this morning. I have (finally!!) put the P-09 and P-10C back together and back in the safe. The P-10F went back in to the olive jar. It's not done yet. I also finished cleaning the Kart .45 barrel that I shot on Thursday at 100 yards and have put that pistol back in the safe. But not for long.
https://youtu.be/cD9IrITrkf4 (https://youtu.be/cD9IrITrkf4)
I don't know what to think about the P-10F barrel. I must have just packed in some carbon the first few times I shot it and then just added to it. Whatever that is in the grooves of that barrel, this is the only one that looks this way. All the other barrels had just a little carbon in the sides of the grooves, but I could see bare metal in the middle of the grooves so I kept after it until it was gone. Mostly. This P-10F barrel is the worst, and it probably has fewer rounds through it than the others. And probably very few cleanings between range trips.
Joe
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Joe, I think we've all learned something from your post. The crud just can't hide from your borescope! Once that stuff builds up into crust, running through a patch just ain't gonna cut it.
I just ordered a quart of Hoppe's #9 to strip and dip my barrels in a tall skinny jar for a real good overnight soaking and scrubbing.
I can only hope to get 'em as clean as yours! O0
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Ill bet that the odd stuff in the P-10 barrel is because its striker fired. Darn striker fired pistols. If it was hammer fired it would be cleaner in there! ;D
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Tok36--I've thought about puttin' a hammer...and chisel to it!
Seriously, I don't understand why the P-10F barrel accumulated what I think is carbon in the formation it exhibits in the grooves of that barrel. I might slug it and compare it to a slug through one of the other barrels. The carbon can't be more than 0.001" or 0.002" thick, as I don't think the grooves are but maybe 0.004" deep. After I made the video above, I soaked the P-10F barrel another 5 hours today then hit it with vfg pellets and JB Bore Paste and it didn't make a dent in it. I may take a pick to the crud at the end of the barrel and see if I can get it to flake off, so I can see some smooth groove surface and confirm that what I am seeing really is just carbon buildup. Brushes, tight patches, vfg pellets haven't made much of a dent in it, neither has soaking in Hoppes #9...yet. I may just let it soak until Monday and then try it again.
I may go shoot a .22 Savage rifle in the morning and let the pistols have a day off. And let the borescope cool down a bit, too.
I think it has been maybe 5 years since I shot that rifle. But it was good the last time I shot it. And I cleaned it before I put in the safe after shooting it last, because I knew it might be a while before I would shoot it again.
Joe
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Joe, I've been following this thread and watching your videos. My Teslong bore scope is shipped and due to arrive tomorrow. Then I'm going to learn the ugly truth about what is actually happening inside my pistol and rifle barrels. As far as I know, they should all be really clean...
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[...] Then I'm going to learn the ugly truth about what is actually happening inside my pistol and rifle barrels. As far as I know, they should all be really clean...
Don't you think we feel better in this stage? ;D :o ::)
I don't wanna know how bed my barrels are... I will just put more bullets through them ... cleaning bullets... 8)
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[...] Then I'm going to learn the ugly truth about what is actually happening inside my pistol and rifle barrels. As far as I know, they should all be really clean...
Don't you think we feel better in this stage? ;D :o ::)
I don't wanna know how bed my barrels are... I will just put more bullets through them ... cleaning bullets... 8)
Yes, I know ignorance should be bliss, which is why I never spent the money on one of those expensive bore scopes... that money was better spent on ammo. However, after seeing Joe's results with this 50-dollar bore scope, and looking at the current price of ammo, I let my curiosity get the better of me.
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So far, the crud I see in the barrels doesn't seem to affect the barrel performance. What really was a wake up call for me was the pitting in the P-09 barrel. Now that is a problem, because it meant that -- at some point -- the barrel will perform poorly, and I don't know what my chances are of replacing it and duplicating the lock up, which has always been perfect.
So my concern is with doing what it takes maintenance-wise to prevent degradation of the barrel performance long term due to pitting, and prevention of any serious buildup of copper/carbon that will affect the sealing of the bullet in the bore and thus the accuracy. So far, what I've found is a pretty even distribution of carbon around the bore, so the barrels still shoot well.
Joe
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Joe, The pitting would concern me as well. May not effect accuracy but if there's a cause for it and it continues to get worse I'd be concerned about what's actually causing it as it's not appearing on your other barrels. Is it caustic residue left in the barrel too long?? Not running a few patches with preservative after a range session?? A defect in the barrel material?? It certainly would be good to get to the bottom of it, if you can, before it 'infects' your other barrels. COVID barrel disease? ::)
Well, I received a brand new barrel today for my SIG P365. My other barrel is shooting fine with 4100 rounds. But I purchased a SAS slide with the new FT flush sights I want to try. I have the original slide being milled for a Holosun 407K and I want to be able to swap slides quickly. Sooo, this gives me an opportunity to compare a brand new barrel to one with 4100 rounds that I did my 'normal' cleaning. As you can see in the images below, the used barrel has some copper on the lands but the groove edges are still sharp which I suspect keeps the exiting bullet spinning consistently which may be the key to accuracy. I'm no ballistics expert by any stretch, but I have heard the unsubstantiated anecdotal rumor that "too much cleaning and brushing can ruin a barrel faster than moderate cleaning". I dunno, what do y'all think?
(https://i.imgur.com/dymlF0h.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/0RaTMSh.jpg?1)
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[...]
Is it caustic residue left in the barrel too long?? Not running a few patches with preservative after a range session??
[...]
"too much cleaning and brushing can ruin a barrel faster than moderate cleaning".
[...]
Vinny, I think you have just answered the common question - how to take care of barrels.
A lot of military shooters agree with the statement about "too much", but the barrel has to be cleaned somehow to be accurate all the time.
I'm not any pro here, but all my barrels seems to be free of any unwanted "junk" inside. I use typical method - solvent patch, 10 - 30 minutes waiting, dry patch, then oil patch and dry patch - after every shooting day.
What I've noticed - one barrel (RIA 1911) has rust after non shooting period of 2 months (thank you Covid-19). Fortunately I was able to take care of it.
So I support this: clean gently after shooting, keep lubed out of moisture.
Anyway - these borescope images and videos are awesome. Thank you guys for sharing. Definitely I will not buy this scope for myself.. I want to have a good sleep every night... (I hate nightmares, especially about barrel's condition ;D)
Stay safe!
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I think Jurek's practice is the proper path to take--clean it after every range trip--so that the crud doesn't bake in so hard that it is difficult to get out.
What I was doing was cleaning the barrels pretty well every 2 or 3 months and letting them sit, even in a dry climate with powder residue still in the barrels. The corrosion is the worst in the oldest barrel. On the guns that I wasn't shooting very often, sure, I would go ahead and clean them before putting them up because I knew I wouldn't be shooting them again any time soon, thus the corrosion in the Sigs is minimal. At one time, I was shooting 200 rounds/week through the 9mm pistols, so I was cleaning them every 2k-3k rounds, which I thought was good enough. Problem is that I don't think it is so much round count sensitive as it is calendar time sitting in a safe with powder residue soaking up moisture. In other words, 20 shots down range followed by 2 months in a safe may result in the same corrosion damage as 400 shots followed by 2 months in the safe.
I shot 150 rounds through a Savage Mark II .22 rifle this morning. I've already removed the fresh carbon...then I made the mistake of taking a look with the borescope. So now the bore is going to get to soak in some Kroil and endure some brushing every few hours tonight and tomorrow. I'm pretty sure this rifle needs to have the old baked in carbon removed. I shot a couple of good groups this morning at 5/8" five shot and 1" five shot, but most were closer to 2". I could not predict where I was going to hit based on what I was seeing in the scope. Pretty frustrating. I can call a bad shot from a red dot on a .45 pistol at 100 yards, but not from a .22 shot viewed through a 20x scope at 100 yards. So I have another project--"How do I get this Savage rifle to hold 1 moa groups at 100 yards. Perhaps I will have to back off the magnification, adjust the parallax correctly, and find the ammo that is most consistent. After I clear the grooves out some. This accuracy issue is not new. Rifle was pretty good for a few hundred rounds, then tanked, in 2014. I put it up (naked eye and patch clean). Now that I have time to mess with it, I'm going to. I couldn't even remember the safety positions on the little Savage .22, much less how to use the squeeze bag and how to cope with the very limited eye relief on that Mueller scope. I need some long gun practice before I get the .308 precision rifle out. The .308 is boringly accurate and predictable, no fun. The .22 did not get better sitting in the safe!
Joe
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If you feel that the rust is the only problem for the barrel, try OTIS Bore Stick. Using it make sense if you are not shooting the firearm, however this product is quite good and easy to use corrosion inhibitor.
I've never heard about this stick, until I've attended CZ Demo Day.
Thank you eastman for the stick :)
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Thanks Jurek for the Eezox and Otis metal defense bore stick suggestions. I've put them on my shopping list to order.
Some great info in this thread.
I keep very accurate logs for each firearm that are transcribed from my quickly scribbled field notebook including rounds fired, spring changes, battery replacements, ammo reports, etc. and what I call a 'quick' clean & lube with a bore cable & patch vs. a more thorough 'strip' clean & lube. If I didn't do this religiously I couldn't trust any of this critical info to memory.
I found at least for me, bringing and shooting a bunch of pistols to the range was developing some bad habits and now i try to concentrate on one or two max over a few week period. However, that has meant I've gotten a bit lazy about cleaning right after shooting as I'm inclined to think 'I'll be shooting them again in a couple days so why bother'. Not good, as the powder residue is bad news and can etch in and cake up making it near impossible to remove. I just need to at least run a few patches with a cable and CLP or Ballistol type product down the bore, feed ramp and chamber face after every session.
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Yep, I'm a reformed pistol cleaner now.
I just checked on the 9mm P-10F barrel and I'm seeing some progress on the carbon in the grooves. It really may take a few days. Today I just removed the barrel from the olive jar, ran some pellets and brush strokes, then some dry patches, then repeated. Also JB Bore Paste on the pellets. When I looked at it with the borescope, it looked like some tiny chunks of carbon had come off and there was a little more of what may be a smooth groove surface visible. Every little bit that gets removed exposes what is left to more solvent, so I'm encouraged. I may have a similar problem with the .22 Savage rifle. And I don't have a 2 foot long, 6" diameter olive jar! Or a small stopper. But I can make a chamber plug, if I have to. I think the gigantic olive jar would be hard on the scope and stock anyway.
Joe
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Thanks Jurek for the Eezox and Otis metal defense bore stick suggestions. I've put them on my shopping list to order.
Some great info in this thread.
You are welcome ;)
Most of these things came from other people. I just listened them and followed the recommendations. Not everything I found or heard was correct, but after few test I made I eventually created my own procedure what to use and how to clean my firearms.
I love to see neatness and perfection. I'm not crazy about it, but as my Father said: "whatever you do, it has to be done wright" :)
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Thanks Jurek for the Eezox and Otis metal defense bore stick suggestions. I've put them on my shopping list to order.
Some great info in this thread.
You are welcome ;)
Most of these things came from other people. I just listened them and followed the recommendations. Not everything I found or heard was correct, but after few test I made I eventually created my own procedure what to use and how to clean my firearms.
I love to see neatness and perfection. I'm not crazy about it, but as my Father said: "whatever you do, it has to be done wright" :)
Write on Brother! ;)
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P.S. just spotted this quote from Eastman in another thread discussing galvanic corrosion:
"The biggest firearm issue with galvanic corrosion is dirty rimfire barrels. Lead deposits (the dissimilar metal) and powder fouling residue + atmospheric humidity (source of electrolyte) can lead to pitting."
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P.S. just spotted this quote from Eastman in another thread discussing galvanic corrosion:
"The biggest firearm issue with galvanic corrosion is dirty rimfire barrels. Lead deposits (the dissimilar metal) and powder fouling residue + atmospheric humidity (source of electrolyte) can lead to pitting."
So looks like frequent gentle barrel cleaning make sense.
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P.S. just spotted this quote from Eastman in another thread discussing galvanic corrosion:
"The biggest firearm issue with galvanic corrosion is dirty rimfire barrels. Lead deposits (the dissimilar metal) and powder fouling residue + atmospheric humidity (source of electrolyte) can lead to pitting."
So looks like frequent gentle barrel cleaning make sense.
And those Otis bore sticks look promising too for longer-term storage protection.
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If you feel that the rust is the only problem for the barrel, try OTIS Bore Stick. Using it make sense if you are not shooting the firearm, however this product is quite good and easy to use corrosion inhibitor.
I've never heard about this stick, until I've attended CZ Demo Day.
Thank you eastman for the stick :)
All of my WWII rifles have Otis Bore Sticks in them.
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My Teslong bore scope arrived yesterday. So I pulled the barrel out of one of my P-07's which has roughly 3-4K rounds through it and had a look. This barrel should have been clean, and mostly it was, but I found streaks of copper in the grooves:
(https://i.imgur.com/52duqfel.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/nsDdSbkl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/diBCl9Rl.png)
I last shot this pistol in February, around 200 rounds of FMJ I think. I didn't soak it in Hoppes afterward. I think I patched it with Hoppes and Kroil, waiting some hours for reaction and patches to turn blue or green, and when they didn't, then I de-greased it, re-applied Eezox to it, and called it done.
So after I saw these streaks, I patched it out with denatured alcohol, then acetone, to remove the Eezox, then I plugged it with a silicone cork in the muzzle, filled it with Hoppes, stuck a wad of patch cloth in the chamber, and let it sit overnight. This morning, I uncorked it, wiped it out with the soaked patch from the chamber... no blue or green in the Hoppes I dumped or on the patch... then I blasted it clean with gun scrubber. I checked it again with the bore scope and didn't see any copper streaks. So I soaked it with Eezox, scrubbed it 10x with a bronze brush, patched it out, let it sit outside a couple of hours, ran an Eezox-soaked VFG pellet through it a bunch of times, which came out clean... and it's now sitting outside in the sun for the Eezox to soak in good, then I'll wipe it dry later today. Probably re-scope it tonight or tomorrow.
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Got mine today. Plugged it into the laptop. Took a look at the P01 barrel (linty, linty, linty). Not rally getting the clearness I'd like to see.
Also took a look at the P07 barrel. Saw a couple specks of what looked like dark gray/black "balls" here and there and one rough spot on a land that looked like the metal had peeled up along the edge.
Gotta get out to the shed, mount that hoppy vise on the edge of the bench and do some work to figure out how to get better pictures/better views.
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:) :) :) You guys have had it now!
I pulled the P-10F barrel from the olive jar twice today, can't see much change. Finally got a pick and watched with the borescope while I tried to pick some of what I think is carbon out of the grooves. Didn't work. Pick too dull, I think. But I didn't hurt anything. I put the barrel back in the olive jar, will try again on Tuesday morning early.
I spent an hour trying to get all the carbon out of the Savage .22 rifle I shot today and yesterday (poorly). I finally gave up, light oil patch, put it in the safe. Most frustrating firearm I've owned. Group was smaller than I could do with a 1911 pistol from a bench, but not by much. Big whoop.
I am going to take Monday off and so some photography instead of firearms stuff, I think. Two weekend range trips when the range was crowded wasn't very pleasant, and I wasn't shooting pistols so I wasn't really up to the task at hand anyway. Actually, any day at the range is a good day, but I was slow to recognize it as a good day until I got home and relaxed for a few minutes.
Joe
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I posted a picture of the soft plastic cups I use in another post. I get these off plastic tubes. Lot of different sizes.
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Yep, saw that picture, thanks.
Joe
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It looks to me like this barrel cleaned up pretty good. I put it back in my P-07 and hope to take it to the range in the next week or two.
(https://i.imgur.com/wFIhEJAl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/PV0n1bCl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/0ayfv8Hl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kC9Lkmcl.png)
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On the subject of lead bullets vs. bullets with some type of coating.
I can't say this is a fact, but it's something I remember reading a few years back when I was loading some lead bullets for my M1917.
The article said if you were going to shoot lead bullets you needed to do a very, very good cleaning job on the barrel to remove all traces of copper. Then shoot some lead, examine the barrel, clean it well, and shoot more lead. That had to do, I think, with first removing things that might cause increased leading/decreased accuracy and then conditioning the bore by shooting only lead bullets after that. You weren't supposed to shoot lead one range trip and jacketed/plated bullets the next.
I can't say if that was a factual statement/practice or if it applies in any way to pistol/revolver barrels. I do know that I used to shoot Thunderbolts in my Win. M52B and Ruger Mk1 5.5" bull barrel and never had issues cleaning them afterwards. I did try a few Vipers, Yellow Jackets and Stingers and nothing shot as good as the lead bullets, so I stuck with the Thunderbolts.
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Well, I'm done with the P-10F rough groove barrel. I've soaked it for a week and haven't made a dent in the roughness, so it is the original rifling machining, not carbon. Looks bad, shoots great. I think the rough spots will tear in to the jacketing on the bullets and smooth over pretty quickly. On top of that will be some carbon, which I will definitely remove after shooting, but I am not going to try to get the copper out again. No point in it if it just fills in the rough spots. I think.
Video of what the barrel looked like this morning will finish uploading and be viewable by about 7:20am CDT.
https://youtu.be/GeTIpsYwfCI (https://youtu.be/GeTIpsYwfCI)
I'm going to shoot the .308 rifle today if it isn't raining. More tonight. The .308 bore looks fine--some copper, just a little carbon in spots, no pitting. Because I cleaned it after shooting it, nearly every time I took it out. It was always a big deal for me to go shoot as few as 20 rounds through that rifle.
Joe
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On the subject of lead bullets vs. bullets with some type of coating.
I can't say this is a fact, but it's something I remember reading a few years back when I was loading some lead bullets for my M1917.
The article said if you were going to shoot lead bullets you needed to do a very, very good cleaning job on the barrel to remove all traces of copper. Then shoot some lead, examine the barrel, clean it well, and shoot more lead. That had to do, I think, with first removing things that might cause increased leading/decreased accuracy and then conditioning the bore by shooting only lead bullets after that. You weren't supposed to shoot lead one range trip and jacketed/plated bullets the next.
I can't say if that was a factual statement/practice or if it applies in any way to pistol/revolver barrels. I do know that I used to shoot Thunderbolts in my Win. M52B and Ruger Mk1 5.5" bull barrel and never had issues cleaning them afterwards. I did try a few Vipers, Yellow Jackets and Stingers and nothing shot as good as the lead bullets, so I stuck with the Thunderbolts.
I think you're right. Mixing lead and copper bullets is a bad recipe.
I actually did the opposite. I found greater accuracy (at least for me-YMMV) with CCI Copper Mini-Mags and copper-coated HV seems to cycle my 22LR pistols more reliably. I run 'em a little wet and almost never have any failures of any kind in thousands of rounds, which I suppose is rare for rim-fires.
I traded my Ruger MK III that had run a lead-copper mix; and ONLY run copper HV in my trade-up MK IV Target. Ditto for my Buckmark Hunter. Not Super HV; but 40gr at 1235fps or 36gr at 1280fps. My S&W Victory was less fussy and I used up my remaining SV rounds in it. And I purchased a 'plinker' Ruger SR22 to get rid of the rest of my lead bullets, including those nasty shrapnel producing Thunderbolts which were the only 22 I could find during the last ammo drought. Cleaned it up good and sold it. ::)
Sorry if I've drifted off topic. Yeah, mixing lead and copper bullets. NOT
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Mixing lead and copper rounds in my 10/22 may have been what led to my barrel obstruction mentioned earlier in the thread. Now that I have this 50 dollar bore scope I am planning to have a close look at that barrel as my next project. Then I will observe it, before and after shooting different types of ammo, and see what I can determine.
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Well, I'm done with the P-10F rough groove barrel. I've soaked it for a week and haven't made a dent in the roughness, so it is the original rifling machining, not carbon. Looks bad, shoots great. I think the rough spots will tear in to the jacketing on the bullets and smooth over pretty quickly. On top of that will be some carbon, which I will definitely remove after shooting, but I am not going to try to get the copper out again. No point in it if it just fills in the rough spots. I think.
Nice posting Joe - very instructive. Obviously one of the downsides of living in the blessed land of 9mm overload is that manufacturers are churning them out like cheap butter, and CZ is letting the machining go a bit long in tooth, and/or barrel finishing is getting cut short.
Yes, likely on a pistol it won't be a big deal filling in the rough grooves with copper and you'll shoot accurately. Over time, it may pit, as moisture accumulates under the copper, but again, in a pistol not a show stopper.
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Thanks Joe for this thread and everyone contributing. I've learned a lot from this post, and confirmed what I learned with the borescope!
Sequence of images below of a SIG P365 barrel:
1.Brand NEW unfired barrel
2.After 4100 rounds and my 'Routine' Hoppe's 9 cleaning with bronze brush and patches - Still showing some carbon and copper streaks
3.After secondary re-soaking 12 hours in Hoppe's, then brush & patch - No Carbon but still some copper
4.After running Tipton felt cleaning pellet with oil & JB Bore Compound 6-8 times - Copper pretty much gone
Bottom Line for me:
*After every range session at least run a patch with CLP, Hoppe's or Ballistol
*Field Strip and do #2 every 200-400 rounds
*Periodically, like maybe end of each season do #3 & #4 followed by oiling and maybe a bore stick before storage.
(https://i.imgur.com/dymlF0h.jpg?2)
(https://i.imgur.com/0RaTMSh.jpg?2)
(https://i.imgur.com/dXMjY4N.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/7G7zTa7.jpg?1)
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1.Brand NEW unfired barrel
4.After running Tipton felt cleaning pellet with oil & JB Bore Compound 6-8 times - Copper pretty much gone
Vinny, your cleaned barrel looks better than unfired one... :o :D
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Yep, that barrel looks great!
Here is what I think we have to keep in mind. It is hard to distinguish discoloration from a deposit of material thick enough to actually affect the bullet path or velocity. This is why I find the on axis view without the 90 degree mirror to be an important tool. We can see the details with the mirror, but it is easier for me to use the end view to evaluate depth or thickness of a deposit. A good reflector (patch trimmed for a loose fit on a jag) helps minimize exaggeration in the end view.
My .308 cleaned up this afternoon with just a few patches and solvent after 37 shots. I may borescope it in the morning and post a video before returning to the range to put another 20 rounds through it.
Thanks, gentlemen for contributing to this thread and for putting up with me while I undergo re-education. :) :)
Joe
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1.Brand NEW unfired barrel
4.After running Tipton felt cleaning pellet with oil & JB Bore Compound 6-8 times - Copper pretty much gone
Vinny, your cleaned barrel looks better than unfired one... :o :D
HaHa, The trick now is not to get OCD about this and just go shoot 'em. O0
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looks clean enough to defend yourself
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Finally got the P-10F with the rough barrel to the range today. I think it is OK. Actually, it is superb, just like my P-09. I'm still having a tough time coming to grips with how well these polymer guns can be shot. Take a look at this video...
https://youtu.be/4mPaSAd9zL0 (https://youtu.be/4mPaSAd9zL0)
I'll never worry about a UNIFORMLY rough barrel again.
Joe
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Awesome Shooting Joe!
-Vinny
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Vinny--yep, I had a good day with the plastic service gun. A very good day.
I got out the borescope this morning and checked the barrel before cleaning it. I ran one patch down the barrel to get the loose carbon out so it wouldn't get on the borescope. Here is the before and after borescope video, confirming that the rough machining fills in very quickly with either powder residue or copper, not sure which yet.
https://youtu.be/00INHfmdC28 (https://youtu.be/00INHfmdC28)
It's the .22 rifle that I can't get to shoot well yet. I'm thinking the borescope may be of some help with it. All the pistols shoot fine regardless of what the borescope indicates, so far.
Joe
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Joe,
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.
I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go. ;D
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Yep, I'm perfectly happy with the pistols. I am going to spend some time today on that pesky .22 rifle that won't shoot better than 3" at 100 yards now, but used to be good for 1/2". Gotta be something visual that the borescope can help me identify, I think.
Joe
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Joe,
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.
I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go. ;D
Considering the success o 5R rifling (and even polygonal rifling), sharp corners may not be that important.
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Joe,
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.
I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go. ;D
Considering the success o 5R rifling (and even polygonal rifling), sharp corners may not be that important.
Didn't know CZ pistols have 5R rifling, or polygonal?? Better get out my bore-scope and look closer.
Something has to spin that bullet like a gyro to stabilize it's trajectory.
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Joe,
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.
I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go. ;D
Considering the success of 5R rifling (and even polygonal rifling), sharp corners may not be that important.
Didn't know CZ pistols have 5R rifling, or polygonal?? Better get out my bore-scope and look closer.
Something has to spin that bullet like a gyro to stabilize it's trajectory.
CZ doesn't use 5R (as far as I know), but one of the design features of 5R rifling is the lack of sharp corners to the rifling. This causes less bullet damage and makes the bore easier to clean. It is considered a premium, more accurate barrel from companies that do offer them (S&W/Thompson-Center, Savage, etc)
The vz 82 does use polygonal rifling.
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Joe,
You've certainly proven that the rough machining at the base of the grooves is undoubtedly irrelevant if the lands are clean and corners sharp.
I do believe as long as the rifling has sharp corners to grab and spin the bullet and no excessive accumulation in the grooves you're good to go. ;D
Considering the success of 5R rifling (and even polygonal rifling), sharp corners may not be that important.
Didn't know CZ pistols have 5R rifling, or polygonal?? Better get out my bore-scope and look closer.
Something has to spin that bullet like a gyro to stabilize it's trajectory.
CZ doesn't use 5R (as far as I know), but one of the design features of 5R rifling is the lack of sharp corners to the rifling. This causes less bullet damage and makes the bore easier to clean. It is considered a premium, more accurate barrel from companies that do offer them (S&W/Thompson-Center, Savage, etc)
The vz 82 does use polygonal rifling.
Eastman,
You've got me wondering now....maybe there IS something different about the P series barrels that make them such accurate shooters as Joe has proven!
I mean, my 75's are accurate too, but the improvements CZ incorporated into the P series pistols like Nitride barrel and slide, polished feed ramps, etc I wouldn't be surprised if there was something subtle CZ improved with the P series barrels too.??
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I'm definitely no expert on what it takes to achieve handgun accuracy, as far as the barrel, it's rifling, fit to the slide, etc. I mainly need my handguns to be reliable, not rust, and shoot minute-of-badguy at 10 yards. However, I was looking at the Primary Machine website, on the product page for their P-07 match barrels (https://primarymachine.com/cz-p-07-match-grade-barrel-9mm/), and they had this interesting comparison image:
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-e8je1h9z3p/images/stencil/608x608/products/285/1235/P09Comparison__17487.1548089587.jpg?c=2)
I have no idea what all the factors are to achieve that kind of improved group size at 25 yards with a P-09 barrel. Maybe Joe or another long range target shooter could comment.
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I read pretty much only good reports on the Primary Machine barrels, and that is great. There has got to be variations in the P-09 barrels and lock up from the factory. So, in my opinion, the value of the Primary Arms barrel is pretty much dependent on how good or bad your original barrel/slide is. If you have a CZ barrel that is at the loose end of the tolerance stack, an aftermarket barrel might show a good result. If you are lucky, like me, and already have really good barrel/slide fits, I think even Primary Machine would suggest spending your money on more ammo and practice.
Similar to the CGW 10x bushing question--how much smaller will my groups be? I had a very sloppy factory bushing in a 9mm 75B slide, so the 10x bushing was the best money I ever spent on it. Most people don't have a factory bushing that is as sloppy as mine was, so they see less improvement.
I have shot several sub 4" groups at a 100 yards with the factory barrels/slides now in the polymer models. I don't think any aftermarket barrel would improve on that. If the factory pistol was spreading out the group to one or two feet at 100 yards (over 3" at 25), I would try a Primary Arms barrel or sell the gun. The OEM barrel in the example on the PA website would certainly be a candidate. None of my polymer CZ's are candidates. My opinion is that the CZ barrel/slides are very good on average, but I only have a very small sample to go by. Good to have a source for a potentially better barrel if you have a poor shooter.
My opinion is that the accuracy of the pistol is much more dependent on the lock up tightness to the slide than it is to bore finishing, assuming the crown is good and that the machining is uniform in the barrel, even if not smooth. Humans love smooth shiny mirror finished bores, a rough bullet just sees a hole that is too small that it is going to be forced through very quickly.
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Joe,
You mentioned something about barrel crown effecting accuracy and I wonder if this is something we should be looking at more carefully while cleaning?
I have a SR P-07 that seems to get a bit 'crusty' under the thread protector after a range session. Although I try to clean off this residue when I field strip, I have to wonder if it's having some effect upon this pistol's accuracy. I mean, it's crusting so badly I have to use sandpaper to remove it. I wonder if I should be removing the thread protector prior to firing?
This U-Tube video by Midway's Larry Potterfield shows him correcting a barrel crown. With a lathe! Sheesh!
How's the crown on that pesky 22 rifle??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsg-Yt6t-HM
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Vinny--crown looks good on the .22. The grooves AND lands are rough and somewhat irregular on the .22 barrel. I am going to try to smooth it out with some rough VFG pellets and JB Bore paste. If that doesn't work, I'll buy a CZ. The .22 rifle is the only firearm I have left that doesn't shoot well. I've fixed the 1911, so the .22 is next.
A crown cutter from Midway is over $100, so I am going to hold off on the crown. Current crown looks excellent anyway.
Joe
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I carried my P-07 to the range yesterday and ran the following through it:
34 Federal HST 147gr
50 Winchester NATO 124gr FMJ
50 Remington UMC 147gr FMJ
50 Blazer Brass 115gr FMJ
20 Syntech Defense 138gr
When I was done shooting, I pulled a dry 9mm Ramrodz swab through my barrel from breech to muzzle several times, to remove the loose carbon, while the barrel was still warm. I pulled another one through the barrel several more times after I got it home and field stripped it.
Here's what I found with the bore scope afterward:
(https://i.imgur.com/Ra0k5b6l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bfJXnAtl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oeLAkQvl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tQM43eul.jpg)
Still plenty of carbon in there, in the grooves and on the lands. Interestingly enough, though, I don't see any copper like what I had in there previously. I'm going to try to clean this barrel with Eezox only, which won't do much to remove any copper. If I get all the carbon out and see no copper, I'll skip the Hoppes #9 this time.
Also noteworthy is I was able to wipe my feed ramp 99% clean with nothing but dry swabs, paper towel, and patch cloth. That isn't something I could accomplish with my older Hoppes + Ballistol cleaning regimen, before I started treating the barrel with Eezox.
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CCW, You make a good point. Get to it sooner rather than 'later'.
I carry a terry hand towel in my range bag and while she's still smok'in hot, I wrap the terry around my pinkie and clean the feed ramp, breach face, and the muzzle end and the residue wipes off easily. I should probably run a cable down the bore with patch too, but honestly I don't. Too many guns, not enough time. lol
If I wait until later I have to use Hoppe's to dissolve it. And with life coming at you fast, later could be ..........
As the old saying goes...."A stitch in time saves nine."
Something to think about.
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About right. You guys clean your pistols before they cool down, and my goal used to be to clean them before the next national holiday. :)
But I did just clean the P-10S barrel that I shot all of 40 rounds through this morning. Soaked in the olive jar for 20 minutes, then brush, then patches until it came clean. Well, pretty clean.
I'm also trying the Eezox this trip, just to see how that stuff works on a carry gun. The slide "feels" slick and the trigger feels fine. P-10S was working just fine today. At 100 yards, see video in "day at the range" if interested.
Joe
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Joe, how did the 22 go? Did my 452 trainer today. Never cleaned before, just when I bought it in 06. It's a hunting rifle to me. Some carbon around the throat area and some light lead down the bore. Just pulled a bore snake to get moisture out every time I hunted when wet. Cleaned up really easy. I'm surprised. I guess everyone lucks out every once in a while.
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Joe, how did the 22 go? Did my 452 trainer today. Never cleaned before, just when I bought it in 06. It's a hunting rifle to me. Some carbon around the throat area and some light lead down the bore. Just pulled a bore snake to get moisture out every time I hunted when wet. Cleaned up really easy. I'm surprised. I guess everyone lucks out every once in a while.
I put the 22 back in the safe. I did all I could to get it smooth and didn't really make much progress. Bore still looks rough, even after a bunch of JB Bore Paste and VFG pellets. Too frustrating when I can shoot everything else pretty well. I'll get it back out after I confirm the problem isn't with me by shooting the 308 at distance. That 308 is like the P-10F, bore looks rough, always shoot just fine clean or not.
Joe
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I have shot several sub 4" groups at a 100 yards with the factory barrels/slides now in the polymer models. I don't think any aftermarket barrel would improve on that.
Amen.
Just read a review on the P09 and the guy recorded a .75" group at 25 yards with PMC. The comparison shot earlier on this page proves one thing: With that particular load the aftermarket barrel is more accurate. Do SOME OEM guns come more accurate than others? For sure, CZs are known for accuracy and their barrels are CHF - something else to consider.
I DO WISH all mu guns had polygonal rifling - nothing cleans up like these.
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Mine likes that cheap 9MM 115 grain FMJ Federal makes/sells.
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I had a pretty spectacular day today with that awful looking P-10F barrel. Best 5 shots of 10 at 200 yards under 5". I don't think there is anything wrong with the barrel's performance. :) :)
Joe
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I had a pretty spectacular day today with that awful looking P-10F barrel. Best 5 shots of 10 at 200 yards under 5". I don't think there is anything wrong with the barrel's performance. :) :)
Joe
If you still cannot go below 2" that means the barrel is bad. O0
Kidding... JoeL, you are amazing... I wish to shoot at 100 feet like you shoot at 100 yards ;) ;D
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And I was worried about those little smudges :D I bought second hand P-09 and there were lots of fouling in barrel. Now it is almost clean. There are just slightly reddish (or so) lines along grooves so I presume they are copper. Overall bore is nice and shine. I really don't know how many shots fired former owner but I didn't shoot this baby yet.
Cheers from Czech Republic. ;)
Dry barrel
(https://i.imgur.com/HOTdgHc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BRP65Tq.jpg)
Slightly oiled
(https://i.imgur.com/Ui9PJ5J.jpg)
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Your new (used) barrel looks fine. If it fits well in the slide, it should be fine. Have fun shooting it.
My post from above is 4 years old now. I still have and shoot the P-09 with that barrel. I have used aftermarket barrels in two of my P-10 pistols. One pistol had a little tighter fit and grouping improved at 100-200 yards. The other one had an excellent barrel like my P-09 from the factory, so not much of an improvement. Both are very easy to clean compared to the slightly rougher machining of the factory barrels.
Joe L
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So those smudges were old carbon. It was impossible to get it out. So I gave it a few light runs with Meguiar’s NXT all metal polish on lacette and now it is like mirror 🙂 In my opinion it is less gritty then J-B or Iosso bore polishing paste.
https://imgur.com/gallery/rCOsUeJ (https://imgur.com/gallery/rCOsUeJ)
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I've noticed, that I polished barrel crown too... Not whole muzzle just crown. Won't it rust easilly when shinny?
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I've noticed, that I polished barrel crown too... Not whole muzzle just crown. Won't it rust easilly when shinny?
Welcome from Georgia.
Please take a few moments to familiarize yourself with all the sticky posts in the 'New Members' section. Together with the Help Topics in the 'Important Information !' or 'FAQ' sub-section, these include 'how tos' such as 'how to' post pictures on the forum.
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First the bragging … I earned my Grand Master in Practical Pistol Competition in late 1995 or early 1996, who remembers dates … Expert in IDPA in three divisions in 2013 … B class USPSA Limited about the same time … held down first place nationally through most of last year in ABRA Factory class, shooting a nearly “stock out of the box” 10/22 LVT …
I’m one of the most resistant people you could ever find when it comes to cleaning a gun, usually just ripping the bore snake through my semiauto pistol until the feed ramp looks good, then lock it in the safe until the next match.
BUT … our club president introduced me to reality in .22 rifle barrels when he suggested that I clean my match barrel as usual, then soak a new bore brush in solvent, run it in and out a few times, then send a fresh patch down the bore. Amazing how much crud that will flush out, and how much better (kind of like when it was new) that barrel suddenly shoots.
So … in IDPA and USPSA matches where your 9mm or what have you is engaging targets at speed and not usually past 20 yards, just give it “a lick and a promise”. But if you want precision accuracy, work on that barrel until you can’t find a bit of residue from anything in it.
YMMV as the acronymists like to say. But give it a try, if you care.