The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: jeepster on May 03, 2020, 09:57:21 AM
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What sizing die do you recommend for 9mm? I currently use Lee, but I have been using .356 bullets lately and getting Wasp Waist and wondering if the Lee may be oversizing? What are the case dimensions for a properly sized 9mm case?
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I used a Lee carbide sizing die for a few years and had the same look once a bullet was seated. Lead, plated, jacketed, all the same.
Plus, resizing 9MM brass was slightly tougher than resizing .223 brass.
I bought a set of RCBS dies with a carbide sizing die and resizing 9MM brass is easy now and they still feed/chamber/fire/eject just fine.
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I went to a lee U die a few years back as I ran into neck tension issues on some brass. Never had an issue with any ammo sized with the U die and it cured the tension problem. That wasp waist you refer to I assume is what some call the coke bottle effect once the bullet is seated in the case. That's not an issue at all.
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I do remember reading here that some thought that the Lee sizing die overworked the case and maybe did not taper size the best?
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What sizing die do you recommend for 9mm? I currently use Lee, but I have been using .356 bullets lately and getting Wasp Waist and wondering if the Lee may be oversizing?
• Reloading is a science in that it is based on hard facts, dimensions to 3 decimals, accurate weights, specific velocities, etc. The only real questions are 1) does the application of all these figures allow the cartridge to properly head space in the chamber, and 2) produce chamber pressures under the SAAMI limits ? As such, how a case looks is a matter of personal preference which has zero bearing on a cartridge's effectiveness or suitability for use.
You may not like the "look" that Lee Sizing Dies leave on the case, but they produce ammo of very high quality that's good enough for probably 95% of the reloading public. Agreed, Lee does take some short cuts for cost reduction purposes, but the low-cost entry-to-median level is where they see their marketing niche.
They are so effective in this portion of the market that off-shore die makers can't even challenge them. There are very few markets left where USA-made products totally dominate. I don't use Lee dies, but I deeply respect the market position they've been able to achieve by offering high quality and high value products.
• Lee is actually under-sizing the 9mm tapered case, which is where the wasp-waist come from, but dimensionally they are good. They simply look funny.
• I think what you really meant to ask was what's the next step up in die brands ? Many people think it's Hornady. You'll pay about $10 more per die set, but the sets come with a replacement parts kits, exchangeable Seating Die anvils, much better Lock Rings, a very nice soft plastic case, and several other high-end features that make them nice.
What are the case dimensions for a properly sized 9mm case?
• The proper cartridge dimensions are set by SAAMI. You can look in your Reloading Manual or you can go to the SAAMI web site and pull the drawings yourself. However, you must understand that most of the dimensions they show are Maximum dimensions for the cartridge and Minimum dimensions for chamber, because they are ultimately concerned with Cartridge-to-Chamber Fits. Because of tolerances, cartridge dimensions smaller than those shown are allowed.... which is where the wasp-waist comes in.
;)
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I do not mind the look of the reloads, just concerned that it may effect accuracy in some way and/or possibly shorten brass life.
I have added the nice die lock rings (Hornady) and sent a HAP 125 to Lee and they made a custom seating anvil.
It is just my constant search for improvement that makes me ask these questions, is there something that would perform better?
I also just received 500 new Stareline cases last week and they are supposedly ready to load, however I ran them thru my Lee sizing die and could definitely feel that they were being resized some, but when I measure a before and after, they seem to be the same dimensions.
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The question is did they fit in your case gauge before you put them through the resizing die? Run them through again and you may feel like they are being sized again, brass will spring back a small amount after being sized.
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Yes the new Starlines do fit fine in the case gauge prior to resizing. I do understand the spring back of brass, I can feel the brass resizing, I let i t rest a few seconds and put it through again and no resistance.
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I've read here (and no where else, so far) that there is a belief that the Lee carbide dies don't have a tapered carbide insert in the resizing die.
Most semi auto pistol cartridges are straight walled bottom to top. The 9MM isn't. It's smaller in OD at the top than the bottom. To keep costs down Lee uses a straight carbide insert (to cut costs) vs. a tapered carbide insert. That's one reason a Lee die produces the resized 9MM case it does compared to other brands of dies.
Read it here, a time or three.
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I do not mind the look of the reloads, just concerned that it may effect accuracy in some way and/or possibly shorten brass life.
The main thing the Sizing Die does that affects accuracy is concentricty, and Lee nails that. Yes, their method of undersizing probably shortens brass life from an expected 25 reloads down to 20, but most people loose their brass well before that.
Most of accuracy comes from consistent amounts of powder, and consistent, concentric bullet seating.
Lee's largest downfalls are probably their Seating Die (which you've already fixed), their powder measures (which are prone to static cling), and their inaccurate balance scale. But again, those 3 items are still good enough to get 95% of the general reloading public through the first 2 years of the hobby.
I have added the nice die lock rings (Hornady) and sent a HAP 125 to Lee and they made a custom seating anvil.
So you've already been upgrading your die set ! I dislike the Lee lock nuts for their size, but I'm not alone in that department. With new lock rings and the fitted seating anvil you're well on your way.
It is just my constant search for improvement that makes me ask these questions, is there something that would perform better?
Being "low man on the totem pole" means every other die set performs better. But Lee has set the minimum standard so high that improvements are tiny and may not be fully appreciated for years.
I also just received 500 new Starline cases last week and they are supposedly ready to load, however I ran them thru my Lee sizing die and could definitely feel that they were being resized some, but when I measure a before and after, they seem to be the same dimensions.
For any brand of factory-new brass, "ready to load" means ready to run through the entire die set. There were small dimensional differences being made by the dies. Maybe you simply need an improved caliper ?
Hope this helps.
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I've read here (and no where else, so far) that there is a belief that the Lee carbide dies don't have a tapered carbide insert in the resizing die.
That's a theory that I have voiced in the past. I'd need to buy a set of Lee dies to prove or disprove it, which I'm obviously not going to do. But as a design engineer, if I wanted to make a low-cost sizing die, that's exactly the way I'd design it to speed manufacturing and cut the die cost. It's actually very smart.
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I think I will spend my money on new calipers. Any suggestions?
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I think I will spend my money on new calipers. Any suggestions?
I just use the $10 (on sale) digitals from Harbor Freight. I put American batteries in them and they run fine. Placing your digital calipers near magnets is what kills them.
I test things before replacing them. Maybe a few tests are in order ? What do your bullets measure after cleaning and zeroing the caliper jaws ?
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Which bullets?
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Something jacketed (0.355") or plated (0.356"). It will state the generic diameter on the box. Just pick up any bullets you have and compare them to the label. If you're reading the label +0.001/-0.000 then your caliper is accurate.
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My P09, P01s and CZ75 Compacts do very well with the Precision Delta 115 grain hollow points. Lots of people here also like the Precision Delta 124 grain hollow points.
I bought some 115 and 124 grain hollow points from Everglades (can't say for sure who makes them) and the 115's are just as good as those from Precision Delta in my CZs with the same load of powder/brand of primer. The bullets are shaped differently, but they seem to shoot the same.
I've got other brands of 124 grain hollow points but they went to other calibers and I've not shot the in the CZs.
I will also say that I've been unable to develop a 147 grain hollow point load that will shoot as well as the 115's. I even bought some Winchester 147 grain hollow points to see if it was my loads or the heavy bullets and my P01 didn't do well with those either.
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Rumor has it the Everglades Ammo bullets are made by Acme. I don't know it to be a fact but I've bought thousands of 115 gr 9mm's from Everglades and I have no complaints.
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Many years ago when I had 06 FFL to manufacture ammo I used Lee dies in all my machines. The only problem with Lee dies was the die body was short and required the lock ring to be placed under the tool head. I also remember 20 years ago when I set up my Dillon XL650 for 9mm I replaced the Dillion sizing die with a Lee die because the Dillon die didn't resize the lower 1/4 of the case very well. When I set up my new XL750 for 9mm a few months ago using mixed brass I was getting bullet set back with Dillon dies I solved the problem with a Lee sizing die.
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I checked the Hornady HAP 125 at .356 and the XTP 147 at .355 so I guess my caliper is accurate.
I have tried 115 gr HAP and PD JHP but have always found the 124/125 to be more accurate. I have recently been testing some DG 147 FP BB with N320 and have been impressed with the results, may take a look at other 147 for my 1 in 10 twist barrel.
I started this thinking I could improve accuracy with better dies, but now I think that maybe I need to work on consistent powder drop, COA and bullet tension.
But mostly need to improve my actual shooting ability.
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Many years ago when I had 06 FFL to manufacture ammo I used Lee dies in all my machines. The only problem with Lee dies was the die body was short and required the lock ring to be placed under the tool head. I also remember 20 years ago when I set up my Dillon XL650 for 9mm I replaced the Dillion sizing die with a Lee die because the Dillon die didn't resize the lower 1/4 of the case very well. When I set up my new XL750 for 9mm a few months ago using mixed brass I was getting bullet set back with Dillon dies I solved the problem with a Lee sizing die.
I did exactly the same thing and in fact I have had such good luck with the Lee die I didn't even bother with the Dillon size die when I set up my XL750.
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I checked the Hornady HAP 125 at .356 and the XTP 147 at .355 so I guess my caliper is accurate.
I assume you have the Chinese digitals sold by so many outlets. Here's what I do to get accurate measurements (in order)...
• Before using, wipe both jaws clean each time with a soft cloth (paper shop towels leave fibers)
• Close the caliper and "zero"
• Open them up, then re-close, and see if they go back to reading "0.000"
• Keep them away from all magnets
• If the sliding part jumps, jerks or seems sticky, then spray some gun lube (RemOil, Birchwood Casey, CLP, whatever) onto your "soft cloth" and then wipe the top and bottom of the rail with the lubed cloth
I have tried 115 gr HAP and PD JHP but have always found the 124/125 to be more accurate. I have recently been testing some DG 147 FP BB with N320 and have been impressed with the results, may take a look at other 147 for my 1 in 10 twist barrel.
Your 124gr findings echo mine. I don't shoot much 147gr at all; like near zero. The last ones I bought were too long for the CZ throat and I used them up in 38Super.
I started this thinking I could improve accuracy with better dies, but now I think that maybe I need to work on consistent powder drop, COA and bullet tension.
I believe you are correct and have some ideas in this department.
But mostly need to improve my actual shooting ability.
Oh yeah !! Come on over and teach me when you get it all worked out !! ;D
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My calipers are from Cabelas $34.95 I believe. Thanks for the tips I will use them
I believe you are correct and have some ideas in this department.
I would be eternally grateful for any input!
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I started this thinking I could improve accuracy with better dies, but now I think that maybe I need to work on consistent powder drop, COA and bullet tension.
So just to summarize before we leave the subject of dies...
At one time I had 4 different die brands in my 550, to build what might have been, the best ammo I ever assembled. So mixing and matching dies is one way to get it done. Choice of dies is all about achieving what you want to happen.
• The way the Dillon Sizing Die kicks out the spent primer works better for me, but I greatly prefer the collet-like centering that Lee and Hornady use. The Lee die reaching down and sizing more of the case and the anti-setback of the wasp-waist are probably assets for the type of competition loading you do. But re-shaping the case to a greater degree, like the Lee does, calls for case lube.
I have fallen in love with the Dillon case lube mainly because 15 seconds after a spritz, you can dump those cases into the case feeder. This is nothing you can't mix up for yourself if you have a spray bottle, rubbing alcohol (or gin :) ) and a bar of lanolin. The formula is all over the net.
• In the Powder Die I use the stock Dillon 'F' funnel. I do have some 25-30 year old models where you can clearly see they were experimenting with Expander shapes and finishes, but I like the newest ones the best. They have the most generous entrance radius which crushes fewer pieces of brass. If you want a tighter hold you can polish them in a drill motor, but in combination with the Lee Sizing, that should be a non-issue.
• Seating is going to be best done with a die that has exchangeable anvils, like Dillon or Hornady. I prefer the Dillon simply because I've figured out a way to get accuracy using my own anvils. But the stock Dillon anvils are obviously stuck in a time warp because they offer no way to seat PD or Hornady conical JHPs, which is what most competitors prefer. This part is infuriating !
• For taper crimp I'm using a Redding #85172. I think it's slightly better than the Lee and Dillon, but not so much that I'd advise everyone to go out and buy a $35 die. I believe finished taper crimp diameter is MUCH more important than the die that applies it. 0.376 to 0.378" (with the average cartridge receiving 0.377") seems to be perfect. At 0.377" the cartridge is ready to chamber very fast, without buckling or distorting the case. And I do not re-set the TC for large bullets. Every 9mm bullet, every 9mm cartridge gets 0.377".
I'm a big fan of Dillon presses, but for several reasons I'm not an especially big fan of Dillon dies. Unfortunately, my dislike for rust and corrosion on my reloading equipment supersedes all else, which keeps bringing me back to Dillon. :o I also like Redding dies, but my favorites of all time are the Pacific DuraChrome, which are very hard to find now in good condition.
So my Bottom Line advice is to not be afraid of mixing and matching dies until the cartridges come out of your press the way YOU want.
Hope this helps.
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I started this thinking I could improve accuracy with better dies, but now I think that maybe I need to work on consistent powder drop, COA and bullet tension.
I believe you are correct and have some ideas in this department.
Most all of this is based on my experience as a mechanical design engineer, my knowledge of reloading, and understanding of physics. Obviously, to get to the nitty-gritty you'd need an apothecary scale capable of 0.01gr accuracy (or better), which I do not own. This because the industry standard is to test and measure to 10 times greater accuracy than you actually need. We desire accuracy to 0.1gr, thus we'd need to test and measure to 0.01gr accuracy. (Maybe one day !)
The basis for all my understand is this... Due to the need for speed in handgun reloading, we are using volumetric powder measures, but what we really desire is precise powder weights. The link between Volume and Weight is Density. So if you want consistent Volumes to deliver consistent Weights, then the place to start is with consistent Density. This is intuitively obvious, even to a casual observer, and needs no mathematical proof.
• There are a lot of tweaks you can do to any powder measure, but the ones with the greatest impact are therefore going to be the ones that work toward gaining consistent density. In this one respect Mike Dillon might be a reloading genius, because the latest model Dillon powder measures have the cam actuated powder bar return. The end result of this design is that the powder bar provides the exact same vibration no matter how slow or fast you operate the press. One source of consistent Density is gained by consistent vibration. Now there are better volumetric powder measures on the market, but you need to operate those presses at a consistent rate, to obtain consistent vibrations, so that the PM delivers consistent weights. But for me, who likes to stop every once in awhile and check things out, this design is simply the ultimate.
Now this snap-back action can be sticky on new Dillon powder measures, so adding powder bar return assistance always helps. To this end you can use rubber bands or the old-style Dillon spring. You're not trying to hammer the PM to death, just add assistance. I add a 5/8" length of wire to the old-style Dillon return spring to get good results.
(https://i.imgur.com/AU921xW.jpg)
• The second thing that delivers consistent density is the Powder Baffle. This works by not allowing the height of powder inside the hopper to pressurize powder entering the measurement cavity. Consistent fill pressure delivers a more consistent Density. A baffle is so simple and cheap, I can't believe every PM on the planet isn't fitted with one. (Instructions to build your own are HERE (https://www.shootersforum.com/attachments/handloading-equipment/10528d1320785845-powder-measures-powder_baffle_instructions_and_templates.pdf).)
Additional
After you get the vibration and pressure corrected, there are other smaller steps you can take to add finesse and accuracy in adjustment.
• One of the large killers of accurate powder measurement is static cling. If there is a lot of static present, the powder may simply not want to fully release and drop... especially on all-plastic powder measures. This is generally reduced by wiping the hopper and other internal PM parts with anti-static clothes dryer sheets. Static is typically brought on during very cold, low humidity weather. So the levels present in Vermont are not going to be same as those in Louisiana.
• Adding a squirt of powdered graphite into the hopper helps lubricate the internals. If your powder is black, then it is likely already covered in graphite to do this same lubrication. But a squirt of graphite once a month never hurts.
• Adding a large knob onto the Dillon PM helps by making adjustments easier and small tweaks more precise.
(https://i.imgur.com/0tvdeQq.jpg)
• Using modern powders with known good flow characteristics. Sport Pistol is greatly preferred over 700X. BE-86 is greatly preferred over Unique.
• Starting with the powder hopper at least 1/2 full also seems to help. This also means you need to get get a funnel and work out a process to empty the hopper after loading.
And other things.
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These are great thanks, goals!
I am currently using a Lee Classic Turret Press with the Lee Pro Auto Powder Measure.
I am currently using the Lee seating die with my custom by Lee anvil. I do have the Lee FCD but have really not seen the need to use it. I have been flaring just enough to bell the case to accept the bullet (HAP 125 and DG 147 FP both .356).
It seems that the Lee die seating crimps slightly and removes the bell while seating for the HAP 125 as my case mouth after seating is .378. and drops right in the case gauge.
Is it better to crimp with a seperate regular (non FCD) crimp die?
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I am currently using a Lee Classic Turret Press with the Lee Pro Auto Powder Measure.
My bad. Too much coffee this AM. ;D Got you mixup with lewmed. You'll need to be very aware of static conditions with your Lee measure, and by-all-means add the baffle if you don't have one.
I am currently using the Lee seating die with my custom by Lee anvil. I do have the Lee FCD but have really not seen the need to use it. I have been flaring just enough to bell the case to accept the bullet (HAP 125 and DG 147 FP both .356). It seems that the Lee die seating crimps slightly and removes the bell while seating for the HAP 125 as my case mouth after seating is .378" and drops right in the case gauge.
You'll want to raise your seating die 1/3 to 1/2 turn to stop the crimp action. Then put any TC die in the fourth position.
Is it better to crimp with a seperate regular (non FCD) crimp die?
Everyone agrees crimping (with any tool) after seating is vastly superior. The Lee FCD really doesn't mess with jacketed bullets, but it can royally screw up lead bullets. If all your other dies are set correctly, then there's very little for the FCD to do except mess you up. Because your dies are properly set, and considering the risks, I believe the plain-Jane, one-piece TC dies are the best way to go. And once set, you're good for a year with any type bullet.
Hope this helps.
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Also forgot to add, I always lube with lanolin/ach mixture.
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Well I actually had the exact items needed to make the Powder Baffle! I just finished it and tested, it consistently dropped 3.34 to 3.36 of N320 with the #40 disc in the Lee Auto.
I also adjusted the seating die up so as not to crimp and loaded 100 rounds of my new fav load DG147 FP at 1.145 with 3.35 N320.
Since the Lee FCD is the only die I currently have to crimp, just touching then 1/8 turn was enough to fit in the case gauge and they measured .378.