The Original CZ Forum
ARCHIVES => CZF ARCHIVES II => Lights, Lasers and Red Dots => Topic started by: hensc on June 20, 2020, 07:58:03 AM
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Thinking about getting my first red dot and putting it on a 75B but there are lots to choose from on the market.
Has anyone come across any red dot 101 website or can share with me your experience and what you look for in a red dot?
Like what’s MOA? Dot size???
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Lots of info on red dot MOA via search engines.
Here is some from Aimpoint
https://www.aimpoint.com/support/handling/reddotexplained/
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Lots of info on red dot MOA via search engines.
Here is some from Aimpoint
https://www.aimpoint.com/support/handling/reddotexplained/
This is very helpful thanks!
So what’s your favorite red dot? They’re kind of expensive and installations are not cheap so I’m hoping to hear about everyone’s experience as much as possible
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i have a holosun 507c V2. from 2moa to 32 moa. im a beginner when it comes to red dots and the 32 moa is what i will be starting out with. features solar panel recharger/shake awake with a ridiculous 50,000 hour batterey life. RMR footprint. i found mine new for $315
https://holosun.com/index/product/index/cid/4.html
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I hear that...they're definitely not cheap, especially if you don't have an optics-ready pistol. Is this red dot going on a defensive pistol, or for competition and/or fun? Mine was going to be for every day carry, and that affected my decision to get a slide-mounted red dot.
I started out looking for a red dot after getting a Glock 45 MOS with Burris Fast Fire 3. I shot better and faster than with my carry P-07 so naturally I went looking to get my slide milled. I ordered a Holosun 407c and was going send the slide and optic to get it custom fitted for that particular optic, as I read its the way to get it truly secured and in place with no gaps. In the midst of all my research, I read a few things that made me reconsider the entire proposition.
For me, a defensive handgun should be reliable, above all else. Its the reason why I went with the P-07 and why I keep my my defensive firearms as close to factory as possible. By removing part of the slide and adding an optic, the weight and distribution of the weight of the slide will be affected. This could lead cycling issues. One of my favorite YouTube gun reviewers, Honest Outlaw, has stated that he's had more cycling issues with pistols with optics compared to those without. Maybe he was using optics plates found on optic-ready pistols, which are just thin pieces of metal and tiny screws holding down the optic. There's a lot of things you can do to help mitigate the reliability issue, including use of different springs and ammo, and you may have to go through a lot more modifications to make it work. Is it worth all of that time and money to still have a lingering doubt about if it'll work in a true defensive scenario? I already had my P-07 set up and vetted, and I didn't want to go through the process again.
No doubt the best and most secure way to get the slide milled is to send the optic and the slide in so that its custom-made for that particular optic. Each optic may be ever so slightly different in dimensions, even if they're the exact same model. But what happens when you want to change optics? Maybe its defective and you need to replace it, or maybe you just don't like it anymore and want to get a different one. In every case, your custom-milled slide is no longer compatible with anything except that optic it was originally made for. So now you have to get a new slide and optic. It can get even more expensive than you originally expected.
And even though sending the slide and optic in for custom milling is the most secure way to get the optic on the slide, they still need to have the tiny screws to hold it down, which, are really unimpressive when you think of how violently the slide reciprocates. One post I read really made me reconsider. "If its so secure, then why don't you run it without the little screws?". Of course that guy was being a jerk, but is he wrong? Once again, a wobbly thing on the slide will affect the slide and its motion and over time those screws will likely loosen up.
Check out the Noblex-Docter red dot sight https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/05/10/noblex-docter-optics-glock/ (https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/05/10/noblex-docter-optics-glock/). Its self-contained, mounts directly to the MOS system and is so low that it can co-witness with stock sights. I think this is a step in the right direction but I'm personally hoping for pistols to come from the factory with slides with red dots integrated into them because they really are a great upgrade and are a lot of fun!
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i have a holosun 507c V2. from 2moa to 32 moa. im a beginner when it comes to red dots and the 32 moa is what i will be starting out with. features solar panel recharger/shake awake with a ridiculous 50,000 hour batterey life. RMR footprint. i found mine new for $315
https://holosun.com/index/product/index/cid/4.html
Whoa so you can adjust it anywhere between 2 and 32 moa? That seems pretty fair at that price point from some of the other ones I’ve seen
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I hear that...they're definitely not cheap, especially if you don't have an optics-ready pistol. Is this red dot going on a defensive pistol, or for competition and/or fun? Mine was going to be for every day carry, and that affected my decision to get a slide-mounted red dot.
I started out looking for a red dot after getting a Glock 45 MOS with Burris Fast Fire 3. I shot better and faster than with my carry P-07 so naturally I went looking to get my slide milled. I ordered a Holosun 407c and was going send the slide and optic to get it custom fitted for that particular optic, as I read its the way to get it truly secured and in place with no gaps. In the midst of all my research, I read a few things that made me reconsider the entire proposition.
For me, a defensive handgun should be reliable, above all else. Its the reason why I went with the P-07 and why I keep my my defensive firearms as close to factory as possible. By removing part of the slide and adding an optic, the weight and distribution of the weight of the slide will be affected. This could lead cycling issues. One of my favorite YouTube gun reviewers, Honest Outlaw, has stated that he's had more cycling issues with pistols with optics compared to those without. Maybe he was using optics plates found on optic-ready pistols, which are just thin pieces of metal and tiny screws holding down the optic. There's a lot of things you can do to help mitigate the reliability issue, including use of different springs and ammo, and you may have to go through a lot more modifications to make it work. Is it worth all of that time and money to still have a lingering doubt about if it'll work in a true defensive scenario? I already had my P-07 set up and vetted, and I didn't want to go through the process again.
No doubt the best and most secure way to get the slide milled is to send the optic and the slide in so that its custom-made for that particular optic. Each optic may be ever so slightly different in dimensions, even if they're the exact same model. But what happens when you want to change optics? Maybe its defective and you need to replace it, or maybe you just don't like it anymore and want to get a different one. In every case, your custom-milled slide is no longer compatible with anything except that optic it was originally made for. So now you have to get a new slide and optic. It can get even more expensive than you originally expected.
And even though sending the slide and optic in for custom milling is the most secure way to get the optic on the slide, they still need to have the tiny screws to hold it down, which, are really unimpressive when you think of how violently the slide reciprocates. One post I read really made me reconsider. "If its so secure, then why don't you run it without the little screws?". Of course that guy was being a jerk, but is he wrong? Once again, a wobbly thing on the slide will affect the slide and its motion and over time those screws will likely loosen up.
Check out the Noblex-Docter red dot sight https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/05/10/noblex-docter-optics-glock/ (https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/05/10/noblex-docter-optics-glock/). Its self-contained, mounts directly to the MOS system and is so low that it can co-witness with stock sights. I think this is a step in the right direction but I'm personally hoping for pistols to come from the factory with slides with red dots integrated into them because they really are a great upgrade and are a lot of fun!
This is going to go on my home defense / range fun gun.
I too like to keep my carry gun stock so other than new sights and new springs on my P-07 it’s as stock as can be
I wish I know more local people running red dot so I can ask to try them out. Your statement of getting custom fitted and milled, then later having to get a new slide is exactly what I’m trying to avoid
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i have a holosun 507c V2. from 2moa to 32 moa. im a beginner when it comes to red dots and the 32 moa is what i will be starting out with. features solar panel recharger/shake awake with a ridiculous 50,000 hour batterey life. RMR footprint. i found mine new for $315
https://holosun.com/index/product/index/cid/4.html
Whoa so you can adjust it anywhere between 2 and 32 moa? That seems pretty fair at that price point from some of the other ones I’ve seen
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It is a 2-MOA dot inside of a 32-MOA circle. You can have dot-only, circle-only or circle-dot illuminated. Battery life will be longest with the dot-only option.
I have the 1st generation 507c with green rather than red illumination. One on a Ruger MkII, one that will probably be mounted to a Phantom upper and then either a 507c or 507k for a P-07 upper.
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Generally speaking, you have 4 choices when it comes to adding a red dot sight to a handgun.
1. Buy a gun that is optic-ready. These guns come from the manufacturer with cut out that accepts the red dot. Depending on the make, you need an adapter plate that work with the different mounting footprints that the various red dot manufacturers have adopted. It may be cheaper in the long run to go this route, but it does require you buy a gun that is optic-ready.
2. You can have your existing gun’s slide milled for a plate system. There are a few custom shops that offer a plate system such as CZ Custom where they will mill a pocket for the optic, and then you get the correct adapter plate for the brand of red dot. Having a plate system would allow you to try different brand of sights by just changing the plate.
3. You can have your existing gun’s slide milled specifically for the red dot you want. The milling shop will cut a pocket in you slide that is specific to your selected brand of red dot. This option pretty much restricts you to that brand of red dot.
4. A few after-market companies sell a red dot plate that uses your gun’s existing rear sight’s dovetail. You remove your rear sight, install the plate and mount your optic to the plate. This may be the cheapest option and minimally invasive on your firearm, but the dot will sit higher with a higher hold-over to contend with.
As far as MOA, they range from 1 MOA all the way up to 10 or 12 MOA. It depends on your application. Some people prefer the smaller MOA for precise shots, others prefer the larger MOA to quickly pick up the dot. I like the middle of the range, and have guns with 3, 4, 5, and 6.5 MOA red dots installed. I find if I bump the brightness up on the smaller MOA dots, I can pick them up pretty quickly, and even with the 5 or 6.5 MOA I can take fairly precise shots out to 15-18 yards.
Footprints: As mentioned above, different manufacturers use different mounting footprints and hole patterns for their red dots. Life would be simpler if they all adopted an industry standard. Trijicon and Holosun share the same footprint for most of their sights, however Holosun is coming out with a new sight specifically intended for compact guns with narrow slides that will use a different footprint. That footprint is compatible with the Sig Romeo Zero and the Shield RMRS.
Leupold has their own mounting footprint, but I think it’s also compatible with one of Sig’s red dots, the Romeo One. However I believe the rest of the Sig offerings use a different footprint. Confused yet?
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Thinking about getting my first red dot and putting it on a 75B but there are lots to choose from on the market.
Has anyone come across any red dot 101 website or can share with me your experience and what you look for in a red dot?
Like what’s MOA? Dot size???
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The 75B slide is narrow like a 1911, so some accommodations have to be made for MRDS mounting. Without adding a plate to make the slide wider, you're limited to using a Sheild RMSC, Burris FF3 or Vortex(Venom or Viper). Those sights are decent but not nearly as durable as an RMR or Holosun. If you have it milled for a plate, you add cost and height which is less desirable. IMHO, there are far better MRDS hosts than a 75B.
I've had Burris FF3's, Vortex Venoms, an RMR06 and a Holosun HS507c V1 mounted on various pistols. The FF3's have been durable, but they aren't bright enough and the window is small. The Venom is very similar to the FF3, but brighter. I went through two factory replacements from Vortex before giving up and selling the last one unopened. The RMR has been great, no complaints through several thousand rounds of practice and match use. The 507C is currently my favorite, I use it for edc and competition on my P10C. There are other options available with larger windows etc., the above are just the ones I have personal experience with. FWIW, milling generally removes about as much weight as the sight adds back.
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Generally speaking, you have 4 choices when it comes to adding a red dot sight to a handgun.
1. Buy a gun that is optic-ready. These guns come from the manufacturer with cut out that accepts the red dot. Depending on the make, you need an adapter plate that work with the different mounting footprints that the various red dot manufacturers have adopted. It may be cheaper in the long run to go this route, but it does require you buy a gun that is optic-ready.
2. You can have your existing gun’s slide milled for a plate system. There are a few custom shops that offer a plate system such as CZ Custom where they will mill a pocket for the optic, and then you get the correct adapter plate for the brand of red dot. Having a plate system would allow you to try different brand of sights by just changing the plate.
3. You can have your existing gun’s slide milled specifically for the red dot you want. The milling shop will cut a pocket in you slide that is specific to your selected brand of red dot. This option pretty much restricts you to that brand of red dot.
4. A few after-market companies sell a red dot plate that uses your gun’s existing rear sight’s dovetail. You remove your rear sight, install the plate and mount your optic to the plate. This may be the cheapest option and minimally invasive on your firearm, but the dot will sit higher with a higher hold-over to contend with.
As far as MOA, they range from 1 MOA all the way up to 10 or 12 MOA. It depends on your application. Some people prefer the smaller MOA for precise shots, others prefer the larger MOA to quickly pick up the dot. I like the middle of the range, and have guns with 3, 4, 5, and 6.5 MOA red dots installed. I find if I bump the brightness up on the smaller MOA dots, I can pick them up pretty quickly, and even with the 5 or 6.5 MOA I can take fairly precise shots out to 15-18 yards.
Footprints: As mentioned above, different manufacturers use different mounting footprints and hole patterns for their red dots. Life would be simpler if they all adopted an industry standard. Trijicon and Holosun share the same footprint for most of their sights, however Holosun is coming out with a new sight specifically intended for compact guns with narrow slides that will use a different footprint. That footprint is compatible with the Sig Romeo Zero and the Shield RMRS.
Leupold has their own mounting footprint, but I think it’s also compatible with one of Sig’s red dots, the Romeo One. However I believe the rest of the Sig offerings use a different footprint. Confused yet?
haha confusing indeed. Fortunately, your guide is very straight forward and newbie friendly. I think I’m leaning toward Option 3 and if it doesn’t go well maybe someone on this forum will have a need for milled upper [emoji48]
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Thinking about getting my first red dot and putting it on a 75B but there are lots to choose from on the market.
Has anyone come across any red dot 101 website or can share with me your experience and what you look for in a red dot?
Like what’s MOA? Dot size???
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The 75B slide is narrow like a 1911, so some accommodations have to be made for MRDS mounting. Without adding a plate to make the slide wider, you're limited to using a Sheild RMSC, Burris FF3 or Vortex(Venom or Viper). Those sights are decent but not nearly as durable as an RMR or Holosun. If you have it milled for a plate, you add cost and height which is less desirable. IMHO, there are far better MRDS hosts than a 75B.
I've had Burris FF3's, Vortex Venoms, an RMR06 and a Holosun HS507c V1 mounted on various pistols. The FF3's have been durable, but they aren't bright enough and the window is small. The Venom is very similar to the FF3, but brighter. I went through two factory replacements from Vortex before giving up and selling the last one unopened. The RMR has been great, no complaints through several thousand rounds of practice and match use. The 507C is currently my favorite, I use it for edc and competition on my P10C. There are other options available with larger windows etc., the above are just the ones I have personal experience with. FWIW, milling generally removes about as much weight as the sight adds back.
You guys are so awesome and answered my questions before I could even ask them! [emoji38] I was just gonna ask about people’s experience with different manufacturers
RMR looks very top of the line but man it costs as much as the pistol itself! I do like the 6.5 MOA though. Holosun is more affordable for me but it only comes in 2 MOA. I guess I’ll need to ask around at the range and see if anyone has an optic I can try my hands on and see what it really looks like. I have very bad eyes (-15 [emoji851])
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Here’s a link that talks about mounting patterns and how they interchange. The new Holosun is not listed or the new Sig Pro which uses the Delta Point Pro pattern
https://optics-info.com/footprints-on-red-dot-sights/
Yeah it’s a crazy learning curve. I tried them out on my Buckmark and realized my eyes are not going to get any better as I age. I opted to use dovetail mounting plates so I could shoot more of my old favorites vs just getting 1 slide cut. Springer Precision and EGW make nice units that mounted in with gentle tapping. I didn’t have any brand preference and bought what came up on sale and now have 2 Holosuns, 407c and 507c V2, and 2 Vortex Venoms. I haven’t really played with the Vortex yet but they seem solid. Been using the Holosun 507 on my Phantom and like it a lot. I have the 403 (tube style) on my Scorpion and an AK. Love the instant on feature of the Holosuns. No fooling around when I want to shoot. Definitely use lock tight when you install them.
I shot a Sig 320P with a slide mounted RDS and I liked it. It was very easy to pick up the dot. Not sure if that’s the gun design or lower mount. If Sig ever gets their new compact Pro version to the local dealer I’m going with that for my new HD and travel piece.
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Generally speaking, you have 4 choices when it comes to adding a red dot sight to a handgun.
1. Buy a gun that is optic-ready. These guns come from the manufacturer with cut out that accepts the red dot. Depending on the make, you need an adapter plate that work with the different mounting footprints that the various red dot manufacturers have adopted. It may be cheaper in the long run to go this route, but it does require you buy a gun that is optic-ready.
2. You can have your existing gun’s slide milled for a plate system. There are a few custom shops that offer a plate system such as CZ Custom where they will mill a pocket for the optic, and then you get the correct adapter plate for the brand of red dot. Having a plate system would allow you to try different brand of sights by just changing the plate.
3. You can have your existing gun’s slide milled specifically for the red dot you want. The milling shop will cut a pocket in you slide that is specific to your selected brand of red dot. This option pretty much restricts you to that brand of red dot.
4. A few after-market companies sell a red dot plate that uses your gun’s existing rear sight’s dovetail. You remove your rear sight, install the plate and mount your optic to the plate. This may be the cheapest option and minimally invasive on your firearm, but the dot will sit higher with a higher hold-over to contend with.
As far as MOA, they range from 1 MOA all the way up to 10 or 12 MOA. It depends on your application. Some people prefer the smaller MOA for precise shots, others prefer the larger MOA to quickly pick up the dot. I like the middle of the range, and have guns with 3, 4, 5, and 6.5 MOA red dots installed. I find if I bump the brightness up on the smaller MOA dots, I can pick them up pretty quickly, and even with the 5 or 6.5 MOA I can take fairly precise shots out to 15-18 yards.
Footprints: As mentioned above, different manufacturers use different mounting footprints and hole patterns for their red dots. Life would be simpler if they all adopted an industry standard. Trijicon and Holosun share the same footprint for most of their sights, however Holosun is coming out with a new sight specifically intended for compact guns with narrow slides that will use a different footprint. That footprint is compatible with the Sig Romeo Zero and the Shield RMRS.
Leupold has their own mounting footprint, but I think it’s also compatible with one of Sig’s red dots, the Romeo One. However I believe the rest of the Sig offerings use a different footprint. Confused yet?
haha confusing indeed. Fortunately, your guide is very straight forward and newbie friendly. I think I’m leaning toward Option 3 and if it doesn’t go well maybe someone on this forum will have a need for milled upper [emoji48]
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I did Option 3 on two of my guns. The hardest part was picking an optic brand to go with, and being stuck with that mounting footprint. I chose Trijicon since they seem to have one of the better reputations for holding up.
Jagerwerks milled my P10C slide for the RMR in 2018 and IMO did a fantastic job for a pretty reasonable cost. The pocket they milled was very precise and a very nice fit. The optic also sits pretty low, which is something I prefer. Since this is a carry / HD gun, I also had them mill a dovetail in front of the optic for a rear sight. They refinished the slide in black nitride, which holds up really well.
Last summer Fire4Effects milled my Shadow 2 for a Trijicon, but this time I went with the SRO since the S2 is primarily intended as a game gun in USPSA and I wanted the bigger window that the SRO offers. F4E‘s milling work is top notch and they also positioned the red dot very low to the bore. Since this is a game gun I forgo’ed the front and rear sights. F4E black nitrided my S2’s slide, and I haven’t seen any holster wear on the slide despite the last 10 months of heavy use.
Option 3 is not the cheapest option, but if you want quality and know what kind of dot you’re going to run, I think it’s the best good option (IMO). I’ve got over 8K rounds on my Shadow 2 and 4K-ish on my P10C post-milling with zero issues with the red dots or pistol function. I think when it comes to milling a slide for a red dot, the key is going with a reputable company that knows what they are doing. I highly recommend Jagerwerks for your P-07 or F4E for the CZ-75. There are other highly regarded companies that I would trust as well based on what I’ve read, but for me my first hand experience with those two has been outstanding.
My .22LR Marvel conversion that I shoot in Steel Challenge has a piccatinny rail on the top, so that just required a mount. Since the rail is non-repriprocating, I went with a Vortex Razr.
My EDC is a Sig 365XL, and it came optic-ready from the factory for the Sig Romeo Zero. So that’s the optic I chose, but waiting to see how it holds up and may look at the Holosun 407K when released as a possible alternative.
I shot iron sighted guns for a long time, but my aging eyes are pushing me in the direction of red dots on my game guns as well as my HD / EDC guns.
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4. A few after-market companies sell a red dot plate that uses your gun’s existing rear sight’s dovetail. You remove your rear sight, install the plate and mount your optic to the plate. This may be the cheapest option and minimally invasive on your firearm, but the dot will sit higher with a higher hold-over to contend with.
I like this option simply because I may want to put the original sight back at some point.
1) Do I need a sight pusher to remove the old sight and install the plate? I think a brass punch can still leave rings.
2) Why do I care that the RDS sits higher?
3) What is hold-over?
My interest is possibly putting a RDS on a SP-01 Shadow for competition.
I fail to understand the benefit of an RDS on a defensive gun, when the stats show the average gun fight distance is something like 7 yards (or was it feet)?
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absolutely agree with you DRR. have 75 SP 01 Shadow custom with iron sights, competition. have P 01 custom from CJW for carry with milled slide for night sights done by CZ Custom, outstanding job. to learn to use Red Dot took unused G3 Glock 34 and put C-More 8 MOA. with dot the focus should be on the target and transitions without sight. C-More works well and no problem at 35-40 yards with 12” plate. haven’t tried yet with 8” plate at distance and still prefer shooting with irons. will shoot Red Dot and KKM barrel and compensator when matches resume at PSGC. not embarrassed to finish last.
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1. Sight pusher will lower the chance you damage your rear sight, but I’ve removed plenty with a punch with no marring marks
2. If the height of the sight over bore doesn’t bother you, then bonus.
3. Hold-over is the difference between the dot and your bore axis. Say your hold-over is 1”. If you put your dot on the target at close distance, say 7 feet, your bullet will likely impact 1” lower than your point of aim. It’s more pronounced with ARs, but it’s still present on red dot mounted pistol. if you’re just wacking away at pop cans, probably a non-issue.
As far as red dot for self defense, hey it’s your world boss, you do you.
My eyes are aging and I need cheaters to read my phone or see my front sight clearly. With a red dot I can choose to hose a close target with just a flash of sight picture or steady up for a more precise shot if called for.
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i have a holosun 507c V2. from 2moa to 32 moa. im a beginner when it comes to red dots and the 32 moa is what i will be starting out with. features solar panel recharger/shake awake with a ridiculous 50,000 hour batterey life. RMR footprint. i found mine new for $315
https://holosun.com/index/product/index/cid/4.html
Whoa so you can adjust it anywhere between 2 and 32 moa? That seems pretty fair at that price point from some of the other ones I’ve seen
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No. there are just the 3 choices. 2 moa dot/32 moa circle and 32 moa circle with dot
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Just wanted to post a new option for RDS that I found. This is the Swampfox Liberty. It uses an RMR mount, top loading 1632 battery, billet aluminum chassis, 3 moa red dot, and most importantly for me it has shake awake with auto shut off. In the pictures I also have the optional Swampfox Ironsides steel protective cover. The cover probably isn't needed for a range gun but it does look cool :)
The dot is mounted with the CZ OEM steel RDS plate for RMR part #: 19230
I've put about 150 round through the p10S with this sight and it's held zero perfectly. I previously had a Vortex Viper on this p10s, comparing the two the Liberty is a clear winner.
The viper had a very small field of view, glass that I could never get clean and on certain brightness level the dot would visibly flicker.
I've had none of these issue with the Liberty.
I know I sound like I'm selling this sight but I just wanted to post my experience with what I believe to be the new best bang for buck pistol RDS.
The Liberty is currently going for just over $200 USD and the Ironsides shield for $49.
(https://i.imgur.com/ULLQdXs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bIwTSvQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/egCPk9K.jpg)
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Hey guys, 1st post! I am tired of waiting for Holosun to start shipping the 507k-x2. Has anyone tried the Swampfox Sentinel on a 75B type slide? It looks to be the right size.
Mike