The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: J10mm on August 03, 2020, 10:46:37 PM
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Well, I made a fool of myself and daughter this weekend. For the first time in probably 15 years, I competed in a pistol competition; a "falling steel" match. I took y 19year old daughter as my team mate despite her last time shooting over 2 years ago. I had my "new" trust CZ P09 and my daughter used my S&W M&P 9mm. I stepped into the match with a new bullet and new reload without testing the round before the match. Not a good showing! Being a bench rest rifle shooter of late, I loaded the rounds to max length that would reliable fit the 9mm mags. Unfortunately, that did not take chamber length into consideration and I single fed my P09.....failure to return into battery followed by a swift palm thrust into the rear of the slide between each shot. I guess the M&P had a "sloppier" chamber as the first shooting stage did not cause any problems for my daughter...she kicked my ass. Fortunately, I opted to bring a Colt 1911 45acp along for the match "just in case". Long story short, every new reload combination deserve some range time before stepping into a competition (or self-defense) situation. We head back to the range tomorrow to validate the resized reload that passed a manual cycling test.
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Yeah, seems the P09's in 9MM have the well known "short" CZ 9MM chamber.
Not so in the .40's though. Or at least not the .40 S&W P07 and P09.
I don't shoot competitions but did similar to you. Developed a load that shot very well in my P07/P09 .40's. Gave some to my youngest son to try in his Beretta and they won't chamber - too long. Those same rounds won't chamber in my Tactical Sport .40 or my CZ75B .40. They do fine in the FNS and M&P .40's.
Different brands, different calibers, different guns even of the same model/caliber can have different chambers.
I can't tell you how many times I've been sitting at the bench, grabbed a new box of bullets to begin reload development and then unloaded/field stripped the pistol on my hip to use the barrel for a plunk test to get my overall length right. That's good for that pistol only so sometimes I have to get up and go get a different one if the loads are meant for a different gun.
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Well, I made a fool of myself and daughter this weekend. For the first time in probably 15 years, I competed in a pistol competition; a "falling steel" match. I took y 19year old daughter as my team mate despite her last time shooting over 2 years ago. I had my "new" trust CZ P09 and my daughter used my S&W M&P 9mm. I stepped into the match with a new bullet and new reload without testing the round before the match. Not a good showing! Being a bench rest rifle shooter of late, I loaded the rounds to max length that would reliable fit the 9mm mags. Unfortunately, that did not take chamber length into consideration and I single fed my P09.
All this to say that your daughter out-shot you at the match ! O0
Believe me, you would have felt a LOT more foolish had you bought 1000 bullets that couldn't even be reloaded for the CZ 9m chamber ! That's what I did. So I'm right there with you, brother.
There is a lot more to the 9x19 Luger cartridge than meets the eye. Lots of people assume because it's small; that it's easy. Not so. When 9x19 is used in the CZ chamber, there are about 15 ways to seriously screw up. With that said, I'll invite you to spend some time over on the Ammo & Handloading portion of this board. The applicable piece of information you need is contained HERE (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0), but there is a LOT more to it.
For instance... Unlike rifle reloading, auto pistol ammunition has a huge range of useful OALs available. What the members of the A&H board have found is that 9mm bullets tend to be far more accurate if deeply seated. That is to say, seated at least 0.250" into the case will result in FREE accuracy. So forget what fits the mag, that's only the first baby step !
Hope to see you there soon. All the best. ;)
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?board=33.0
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Great feedback! Thank you.
My early days of handgun reloading were pretty "lazy"! I shot 40S&W in IPSC/USPSA competition from a 1911 platform. I was educated early on by fellow competitors to "load long" with the 40S&W to improve feeding efficiency for a 9mm length cartridge in a 45acp length action. Guess my chambers were long enough to digest those 40S&W reloads that were nearly 10mm in OAL.
I reworked the 9mm cartridges that gave me a fit on Sunday, but had mixed results today. I had 3 mags work flawlessly, then the final mag had about 60% fail to return to battery. These are truncated cone bullets. I normally use RNFP or SWC profiles. I will make another adjustment based on the OAL recommended in your link and check the results. When shooting, the P09 is ridiculously accurate. I'm afraid my daughter that "out shot me" will be asking for my CZ over the M&P I've been training her with!
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Dude I feel your pain, not the getting out shot by your daughter pain the bullets are too long pain.
I actually load different lengths for my Tanfoglio competition gun then my CZ's and another all together different length for my 1911 9mm's.
I have different color boxes I keep each load in.
I recently bought 3500 projectiles - 124g from Bayou Bullets. When they came I noticed they were void the sweat ring. I called Dennis and he said his old dies were worn out and this is his new 124 profile.
I have loaded just over 21,000 124g bayou's with the older profile and had my recipe dialed in to perfection (in my definition) for my competition pistol. I had a falling steel match the next day so i loaded 250 new profile rounds, to the old profile recipe. What a disaster, I used to load to 1.109 OAL and they ran flawlessly in the Tang and in the CZ's I had to go to 1.115 for the 1911's. The new rounds would not load, even after a swift hand check they wouldn't load. But to make matters worse I couldn't get the slide back open either. I had jammed the bullet in so tight that it held the slide in place. I had to eventually pull the bullet out of the casing while stuck in the barrel, with multiple swift hand thrusts to the grip while holding the slide.
To get it to fit my gun with the new profile I had to go to 1.081 OAL. I plunked it and twisted it 1.083 it would still stick. 1.081 was good. So I went to the range and much to my dismay 1.081 is too short for accurate feeding. when the short bullets hit my feed ramp they go straight up instead of into the tube. I called Dennis again and he was very helpful and offered to take them back. I told him I would load them for the CZ's and be good, just FYI-ing him. BTW the old profile 1.109's went into the CZ's like butter. I have to load the new profile ones to 1.104 or they stick. Good news I figured it out after some considerable embarrassment as well. Bad news....cant use bayou in my Tanfoglio any more.
RCG
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And I thought loading precision rifle cartridges for ong range was complicated! I'm using Missouri Bullets for the first time, receiving 9mm, 44ag and 480 ruger bullets. The 9mm 125gr TC were the first in the mix. The other two are revolvers and I can at least "visually" confirm they fit the cylinders without protruding and preventing cycling!
The first shots from my "new" CZ P09 were jacketed round nose and RNFP bullets. Guess I just got lucky on OAL when I loaded them.
Now regarding my daughter's skill that keeps coming up in conversation! She has the potential to be an outstanding shooter! Out of three kids (the other two older boys), she's the only one interested in spending time with "old dad". I worked on her basic form today and saw instant improvements in accuracy. Of course she prefers my old man red dot CZ over the iron sight M&P I have her shooting. Guess I'll be investing in a red dot for the M&P or another P09 to build out like mine! Whoever said children are expensive was spot on!!!!!
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And I thought loading precision rifle cartridges for ong range was complicated! I'm using Missouri Bullets for the first time, receiving 9mm, 44ag and 480 ruger bullets. The 9mm 125gr TC were the first in the mix. The other two are revolvers and I can at least "visually" confirm they fit the cylinders without protruding and preventing cycling!
The first shots from my "new" CZ P09 were jacketed round nose and RNFP bullets. Guess I just got lucky on OAL when I loaded them.
Now regarding my daughter's skill that keeps coming up in conversation! She has the potential to be an outstanding shooter! Out of three kids (the other two older boys), she's the only one interested in spending time with "old dad". I worked on her basic form today and saw instant improvements in accuracy. Of course she prefers my old man red dot CZ over the iron sight M&P I have her shooting. Guess I'll be investing in a red dot for the M&P or another P09 to build out like mine! Whoever said children are expensive was spot on!!!!!
I think she needs a P-09 of her very own, instead of upgrading the M&P.
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I will make another adjustment based on the OAL recommended in your link and check the results.
I don't understand.
I don't recommend any OALs. The document clearly says that each bullet-to-barrel fit will be distinctly individual, and explains why. The document helps you ascertain your upper and lower limits, and then leaves it to you to pick an OAL between them.
???
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OAL based on the process described in the article. This is the same process used in determining ideal seating depth in precision rifle cartridges; seat the new bullet into the lands, measure OAL to Ogive. The difference becomes "settnig a max OAL" for pistols versus some rifle/bullet combinations perform best with a degree of "jam" into the rifling. My rifles seem to prefer .010-.020" off the lands. Guy shooting Berger bullets tend to be in the lands. So, my "make another adjustment" referred to post MAX OAL determination. Again, thanks for the information.
Another question:
Does anyone use cast bullets in CZs? Either traditional cast w/lube or the newer "coated" cast bullets?
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Another question:
Does anyone use cast bullets in CZs? Either traditional cast w/lube or the newer "coated" cast bullets?
I know there are some who do. Best to start a new question in the Ammo/Reloading sub-forum for higher visibility.
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OAL based on the process described in the article. This is the same process used in determining ideal seating depth in precision rifle cartridges; seat the new bullet into the lands, measure OAL to Ogive. The difference becomes "settnig a max OAL" for pistols versus some rifle/bullet combinations perform best with a degree of "jam" into the rifling. My rifles seem to prefer .010-.020" off the lands. Guy shooting Berger bullets tend to be in the lands. So, my "make another adjustment" referred to post MAX OAL determination. Again, thanks for the information.
Well there's your problem !
You haven't even read the article !! The article is NOT about the jump to the lands, as is used in reloading for rifles. Pistols are completely different. "Jump to the lands" in pistol is pointless. Useless as tits on on a boar hog.
;)
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I plunk test all bullets for my SP01 and P07 and load to that depth for all my 9mm pistols. I used to have bags of M&P ammo and Glock ammo and CZ ammo but no more. All get short loaded so what happened to you will not happen to me. :)
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Back when, I got a new barrel for the CZ75. Commercial ammo wouldn't seat in the short chamber. I had a gunsmith lengthen the chamber a bit. He was reluctant to do it, but I haven't had any more problems with commercial or reloaded ammo since. This was before I got into reloading 15 or so years ago. So far my reloads fit all my 9mm's after I plunk them in the 75's chamber.
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J10MM, Wobbly, lets make sure we are all talking about the same article...
Yes,. I load cast in 9mm quite a bit, used the Lee 124 gr TL as my go-to for quite a long time, good bullet. The Lee 125 single lube groove is slightly too fat for the CZ short chamber, and the 124 rebated ogive works great, set at 1.095 in my loads.