The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: J10mm on August 06, 2020, 01:52:51 PM
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I discovered the secret to CZ accuracy the hard way.....100% FTF at a local Falling Steel Shoot, using Missouri Bullet 124gr TC bullets. Wobbly was kind enough to direct me to the detailed process to establish Max OAL by bullet.
My next question is traditional cast versus coated cast bullets for feeding/functioning. With the CZ tight chambers, do traditional cast bullets create leading/deposit issues that will lead to FTF/FRTB? I adjusted the Mb 124 TC bullets to max OAL but only fed three mags before it stopped returning to battery. Cleaned the chamber and still had intermittent issues which leads me to believe it may be the bullet profile instead.
Thanks
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You again ! ::)
Do you mean MBC bullets ? And if so, then which ones ?
This is for your P09, correct ?
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I've not shot many cast bullets in my 9MM P09. My .40 S&W P07 and my Tactical Sport .40 do great with the Missouri Bullet Co. 140 grain lead bullets. Lead or coated lead, the guns don't seem to know the difference.
No leading issues with either one.
I have a bunch of those 125 grain truncated cone coated lead bullets from Missouri Bullet Co. I've loaded up some test bullets for the 9MM but have not shot any of them yet. A fall (cooler weather) range visit will get that taken care of.
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My omly experience with MB has been the 125gs Truncated Cone bullets. They have been very temperamental to date for me.
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Sorry. We're getting off on the exact wrong foot.
You have a question. But we don't know what the heck it is you're asking because you have simply supplied ZERO details.
1. If it is MBC, because this is unconfirmed, makes (what ?) 25 or so bullets just for 9mm. They all act differently in the CZ. So YOU need to be very, very specific about exactly which bullet maker it is, AND THEN which bullet it is. If you hate typing, then copy and paste the web site link.
2. Then, YOU need to tell us EXACTLY which gun and what model it is. Even within the CZ family, some models process lead bullets differently. We just spent a week talking about how different the Shadow is when shooting lead.
We have lots of experienced pistol reloaders here who can help. But first, you need to be far more forthcoming with YOUR details. We absolutely suck at guessing.
All the best. ;)
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Following with interest, I've been using the RMR 124 gr. Matchwinner in my CZ, but I'm out, they're out, and I'm looking for a viable (cheaper) replacement. I run the MBC 225 gr. coated TC in my .45 ACP's, they've been excellent, but the CZ's can be a bit more finicky. BTW, my (currently) sole 9mm is a PCR.
And speaking of coated bullets, are there other/better alternatives to Sports Pistol? It's working out nicely in my .45's, but I'm getting low, and if there's better choices for coated bullets, I'd like to hear about it. Sorry about the thread hijack, if it's a problem, I'll be happy to start a new thread. Thanks.
Dave
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This thread started over on the Polymer Pistol Forum. If you care to read the background you can go here...
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=111555.0
Maybe I was a bit rough on him, but I can't stand it when people want definite answers, but reveal zero detail. And obviously haven't bothered to digest the information they were given.
:P
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Thank you to those who have provided insight and joint learning to my posts. I appreciate your feedback, experience and help in gaining understanding of the unique attributes of the CZ family of firearms.
Wobbly:
Thank you for referring to my initial thread in the Polymer frames section of the CZ forum; that fills the gap on which specific firearm I am loading for: P09. I initiated my inquiry for knowledge in the Polymer Pistol forum, but received additional guidance to address the "cast bullets" topic in the "reloading" category and failed to carry over the firearm in question. Yes, I read your initial recommended thread, printed it and have it handy at my reloading bench. The last "adjustment" to my loaded rounds were based on the "Max OAL by Bullet" as described in the 'How to Determine Max OAL for a CZ Pistol". If you reread my post, you will note several references to the Missouri Bullets' 125gr Truncated Cone bullets (I admit my initial weigh description was 124gr, but TC design was consistent); according to the Missouri Bullets website, there are only 10 listed 9mm bullets, not 25 or so..... including one "Cone" profile in either traditional grease band or coated. I have loaded many Truncated Cone (TC) bullets over the years and MBC is the first I've used that call it a "Cone" bullet. I did not consider TC versus Cone as a point of confusion for any moderately experienced reloader. Hence, I'm not sure where your animosity towards me originated, but enough is enough. I joined this forum to gain knowledge, not to be antagonized or bullied by senior members/Moderators of this forum. I respectfully request that you decline from responding to any of my future contributions to this forum, either original posting or contributory.
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Gentlemen, lets calm this way down. Let's get down to brass tacks;
J10mm, what information would you like specifically? I know you probably stated it before, but just for the purpose of clarity, so we are all on the same page, ask again, please. I have been casting and powder coating for the CZ pistol of all flavors for a few years, and I'll bet we can figure out what it is you want to know. I can say I avoided the Truncated Cone bullets after I discovered they loaded weird with a standard seating plug - looked like little igloos with chimneys. Didn't hurt much of anything once loaded short enough, but the accuracy wasn't great and they looked weird.
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J10,
I'm assuming you have the max oal figured out and have subtracted a bit (0.020) to account for process variability. Have you plunk tested finished rounds to verify they chamber?
It could be that bullet shaped needs a different oal to feed proper.
It could be that your crimp isn't set proper. It should be in the neighborhood of 0.377-0.378 at the case mouth.
It could be that your not expanding/flaring the case mouth enough and shaved rings of lead are fouling the chamber?
Pictures of your finished cartridges and type of feeding issue may be revealing and helpful.
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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One other thing I've run into with some pistols.
A bullet that works well in some pistols just won't work in another (I'm talking feed issues here). You adjust the overall length for the problem pistol and now it works great. For some reason that pistol needed a cartridge overall length just a little longer, or a little shorter in order feed/function well.
Then, that adjusted length won't work in another pistol. Happens with factory ammo, too. Some pistols just won't feed/chamber some factory ammo due to the size/shape of the bullet or the overall length of the cartridge with that bullet. Most members here advise the gun owner to try a different factory ammo in that pistol.
Good luck with your journey to making reliable, accurate ammo for you pistols. Keep good notes/logbook info on what you try, what works, and what doesn't.
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My initial loads for my New CZ P09 were 115gr and 124gr FMJ bullets from various manufacturers. No feeding failures after about 400 rounds. My problems began when I moved to the Cast Truncated Cone bullets.
I did notice some lead shaving from not flaring the case mouth sufficiently for lead bullets. That'll be adjusted with the next reloading session for 9mm.
I did plunk test the MBC 125gr Cone bullets and had varying results. Those rounds are now being consumed by my M&P 9mm while I wait for resupply.
I'm out of bullets now and awaiting on some MBC IDP #8 bullets from Grafs and 4 variations of coated bullets from Acme Bullet. I spoke with Acme regarding profiles for my CZ P09 and she recommended trying several of their newer designs, including 115 RN-NLG, 124 RN-NLG, 125 RN-NLG and 145 RN-NLG. I have 100 of each coming to test out. Their "new" profiles on more pointed RN versus previous blunt round noses. I looked at a dozen + bullet casters and Acme Bullets seemed to have the shortest lead time. Anyone use Acme Bullets out of Wisconsin?
Thank you for the additional information. I'll check my crimps too. I ordered a Lee 9mm Factory Crimp Die. I had feeding issues back in my USPSA days in 45acp that the Lee FCD fixed.
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I'd shy away from the Lee factory crimp die and lead bullets. The die has a built in sizing ring that will swage down the bullets. So if you ordered .357 sized bullets they will be .355 after using the fcd. This can lead to leading issues and even bullet tumbling.
Most cz's will shoot the best with slightly over sized lead bullets. To know what size you need to run you need to slug your barrel and accurately measure the groove diameter with a micrometer. You need a bullet that is 0.001 inch bigger than the measured groove diameter.
Folks like using the fcd because it "fixes" other issues in their process. It basically covers up other improperly setup dies. You are better off getting your taper crimp die dialed in properly.
This is one reason that new reloaders should start with fmj bullets. It eliminates a bunch of other parts of the process that need to be considered shooting lead or coated lead bullets.
Given that you stated seeing shavings, I'd start at the expansion/ flare setup and get that station set properly. Then I'd try the plunk test again with some dummy rounds freshly seated with crimp. While your at it check the taper crimp setup. With oversized lead you should be about 0.378 inch.
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Wobbly has contributed some very good drawings/diagrams of bullet shape vs. chamber size/shape and what can cause problems. Really makes it easier to understand the problems you can run into with reloading (or even factory ammo at times).
Might do a search/scan through the Stickies at the top of the Ammo & Handloading section to find some of those in other threads.
Just because it's a "light" bullet doesn't guarantee it will feed/chamber right.
[Mods Added text in maroon for clarity.]
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Went back through my whole process and made a few die adjustments, including a bit more flare to eliminate the lead shavings. I also found my powder drop station was closing the flare. After walking through each station, I had a good range trip over the weekend. I'm trying out 4 difference bullets from Acme Bullets in WI, including their 115gr, 124gr, 125gr and 145gr RN coated bullets. I had 100% feeding for 120 rounds total. At 15 yards, I found the best accuracy for my P09 in this order: 115gr, 125gr, 124gr then 145gr. I have some MBC IDPA #8 bullets coming this week, so will be comparing them to the Acme Bullets.
I appreciate the feedback from everyone. My powder choice from my USPSA days was Hodgdon Titegroup, although I've been using Hodgdon Longshot lately as my Titegroup is depleted. Anyone else have a favorite 9mm powder?
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My powder choice from my USPSA days was Hodgdon Titegroup, although I've been using Hodgdon Longshot lately as my Titegroup is depleted. Anyone else have a favorite 9mm powder?
Sport Pistol, N320 and Winchester 231/HP 38 in that order.
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What George16 said. All of these are far superior to T.G.
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For your question about traditional cast versus coated cast bullets, it really depends on the specific bullet and the tightness of your CZ chamber. Some traditional cast bullets can create leading/deposit issues that lead to FTF/FRTB, while others may not have as much of an issue. It's always best to test out different types of bullets and see which ones work best for your specific gun. By the way, if you're looking for high-quality ammo, I highly recommend checking out https://midcitygunshop.com/product/44-40-winchester-ammo-for-sale/. They have a great selection of ammo for all types of firearms and their prices are very competitive.
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Holy thread resurrection batman!
Welcome to the forum! Please introduce yourself in the welcome section. There is plenty of info you should review in the stickies at the top of the forum.
Back on topic:
Just for reference, I run a Hitek coated 125gr RN sized at 0.357 with zero issues in any of my numerous CZ chambers. My next batch is only sized to 0.356 but same 125gr RN Hitek coated.
Cheers,
Toby
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• Coated will always have less leading and smoke than lubed-lead.
- Plated and Jacketed will always have zero leading and much lower exposure to lead fumes.
- When you get proficient with your reloading, and start shooting on a regular basis, you may find that (like many of us, that) while Lead bullets are somewhat cheaper, they are simply not worth all the trouble. I predict at some point you'll buy 3000 JHP and pronounce yourself "done with lead".
• Definitely do not use the Lee Factory Crimp Die ("FCD") with lead bullets.
• I would stop playing with bullet shapes. I know you're
- The SWC are merely to punch a clean hole in NRA targets, but they do not go up the feed ramp smoothly and your OAL may need to go through several gyrations before you find an OAL that feeds reliably in your pistol. And that OAL may only work in that one pistol. Save the SWC for the revolver.
- RN or FMJ are always going to feed easier and better in an auto pistol.
- Conical JHP (like Precision Delta JHP) and the round-end JHP (like Rocky Mountain Reloading JHP) are where you want to end up. Both are sold in bulk.
• Definitely drop the TightGroup. It's really too fast for 9mm. Instead look for some Alliant Sport Pistol or Winchester 231, which is also sold as Hodgdon HP-38. If you want to get really fancy, maybe even some VihtaVuouri N320 or N330. All of these are much more forgiving, run cooler, and have better 'case fill' than the TG.
Hope this helps.
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Wobbly is right on. I learned all of this on 9mm back when I got an EMP 3". It had a very short chamber and my reloads were too long. I use Brazos bullets and found the 115 grain bullets were too fat and hit the rifling and wouldn't chamber. I tried the 125, 135, and 147 grain bullets. The 125 hit too but the 135 and 147 did not. I had a Beretta 92 and it didn't care what I put in it. It had a very generous chamber and barrel. With 115 and titegroup powder it leaded so bad it took 30 minutes to clean after just a few rounds. Brazos told me to go to a bigger bullet and toss the titegroup and go with a slower powder like Unique. I got some .358 bullets and had the Unique powder. I could shoot 100 in it and it looked like I just cleaned it. Those loads work in all of my stuff. I recently switched to 135 for economy. They are just as good and actually like HP38//231 really well. And if you double charge the powder it will fill the case to the top. I can toss a clay pigeon on the 25 yard berm and wipe it out plus all of the little pieces and easy to clean. I still have a few titegroup loads in 38 that after a dozen rounds the barrel is smoking hot. My new CZ P01 omega is a tight chamber and the barrel measures .356. So I use .357 bullets. Load only about 10 and test. Then you can make adjustments as needed. I do use the Lee 4 die set and the way I have things set the factory crimp die rarely touches anything. Once in awhile I can feel it rub a little. I have pulled bullets and checked and no downsizing of the bullets. For me reloading is part of the fun of shooting. I am only 3 or 4 miles from the range and go blast a few 4 or 5 days a week. When you have a problem you analyze it and fix it. I really enjoy testing powders and bullets. I am retired and that keep me and my brain busy. If you are a city working guy then reloading would just be a chore and not much fun.