The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ BREN => Topic started by: MeatAxe on September 01, 2020, 09:14:41 PM
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OK, hopefully Ive got this polling business figured out.
Want to see where the trouble spots are (if any) with Bren 2 guns in 7.62x39 in their various configurations. Hopefully we’ll get a large response to the poll owing to all the activity and interest in this subject.
No 5.56 guns need apply since they don't seem to be experiencing the same issues as the 7.62x39 guns.
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Thanks for putting it together. I hope it pans out to something helpful.
I think Ammo should be an included (at least to eliminate a variable). You could include add directions to participant of a vote to perhaps add .2 cents. For example, (I voted issue 7) w FTF using X ammo brand(s), at # round count. Small blurb on the voters experience only. (hope that won't derail thread) Vote with a one-liner and done.
One can just go in and click at this point and it'd water down Trolls or self interested voters.
Nice to also have your Date of BCG & Bren.
BCG should have a date code that either says 18, 19, or 20.
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Bren 2S 11" 2020 model
Round count: 200
FTE count: 5
Ammunition: Yugo M67 (0) - Golden Tiger 123gr. FMJ (5)
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You also need to add "have had issues w/ factory handguard AND aftermarket".
9 Inch Bren 2 MS.
5100 rounds.
Every type of steel cased commercially available 7.62X39. All ball ammo, no hollow points.
Lost count. It got to the point where it no longer made sense to catalog my failures.
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2020 2S 11"
330ish rounds
roughly 21 or so FTE, all wolf FMJ polyformance.
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LOL - well at this point it's pretty much a dead heat with one vote each per category - only those with Bren 2S guns with no problems w/ aftermarket rails remain unrepresented - admittedly a tiny fraction of the whole spectrum.
All those people who were carping and/or raving about their Bren 2 guns need to chime in and be heard so we can figure out how big of a problem this is - or is not.
Everything is clear as mud right now.
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I haven't had failures yet but, seeing the difference in felt recoil between the standard gas cylinder and running it with my 14" 5.56 cylinder when suppressed, my 9" 7.62x39 is definitely over gassed and IMO it's only a matter of time before I start seeing the same kinds of failures others are seeing. With gas ports that big, and the port located so close to the chamber, I'm willing to bet port erosion is going to be severe.
7.62x39 causes pretty aggressive port erosion on an AK, and an AK's ports are farther from the chamber meaning the gasses are cooler and at less pressure than at the Bren 2's port, so...
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I haven't had failures yet but, seeing the difference in felt recoil between the standard gas cylinder and running it with my 14" 5.56 cylinder when suppressed, my 9" 7.62x39 is definitely over gassed and IMO it's only a matter of time before I start seeing the same kinds of failures others are seeing. With gas ports that big, and the port located so close to the chamber, I'm willing to bet port erosion is going to be severe.
7.62x39 causes pretty aggressive port erosion on an AK, and an AK's ports are farther from the chamber meaning the gasses are cooler and at less pressure than at the Bren 2's port, so...
So at this point in time, you haven't had any failures? How many rounds? That would still be a "non-failure" in this poll.
Eventually, all guns are going to fail once in a while. Even the most reliable guns eventually get too dirty or run into bad ammo if they get shot very much.
This poll is for actual failures (and non-failures), especially chronic failures right out of the box, not "anticipated" failures at some point in the future. That's the only way we can get a clear picture of what's going on in the here and now with these 7.62x39 Brens. We need to document how many are failing and how many are not since their recent introduction into the US.
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I don't agree. My gun is severely overgassed. I have enough experience to know the difference. My gun IS beating itself to pieces. That's an "issue."
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I don't agree. My gun is severely overgassed. I have enough experience to know the difference. My gun IS beating itself to pieces. That's an "issue."
Well, I hear you on over-gassing issues. Incredibly frustrating as the only true fix is a new barrel with a properly drilled gas port. I had a Vepr 6.5G that was so horribly over gassed that it was painful to shoot: forget about trigger slap, this had trigger BITE. Fortunately there are adjustable KNS gas pistons for the AK - none such for the Bren as of yet.
I guess it’s just luck of the draw as my Bren Ms is on the verge of being under gassed: soft shooting and only kicks shells out about 6 to 8 feet or so in the normal gas setting.
Anyway, I know there must be more than 8 Bren 2 owners on this board, so please chime in on the poll so we can try to sort this mess out.
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My old 9" Bren 2s in 7.62x39 was perfectly gassed with about 500 rounds fired with no issue.
I sold it to fund an APC 223 (which I LOVE). I found myself able to purchase an 11" Bren 2s in 7.62x39 last week but haven't shot my 11" yet.
Is CZ Importing more Bren 2s's into the country?
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We need to have round count, ammunition choice, barrel lengths reported even for non-issues.
Also, purchase date. As we know, there were two shipments of Bren 2S's into the country, 2018 & 2020.
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My old 9" Bren 2s in 7.62x39 was perfectly gassed with about 500 rounds fired with no issue.
I sold it to fund an APC 223 (which I LOVE). I found myself able to purchase an 11" Bren 2s in 7.62x39 last week but haven't shot my 11" yet.
Is CZ Importing more Bren 2s's into the country?
How do you define a perfectly gassed rifle? What is that to you?
For me, its a rifle that functions properly without malfunctions, ejects consistently to the 3 or 4 o'clock. Does not beat up cases during the extraction process and "feels" (subjective) nice, ie not violent but pleasant to shoot regardless of caliber.
My 9 inch bren is none of these things although for a 7.62X39, the gun does track fairly well in recoil but I believe that is inherent to the entire design of the system as my 556 gun is also slightly over gassed but also tracks REALLY well.
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My old 9" Bren 2s in 7.62x39 was perfectly gassed with about 500 rounds fired with no issue.
I sold it to fund an APC 223 (which I LOVE). I found myself able to purchase an 11" Bren 2s in 7.62x39 last week but haven't shot my 11" yet.
Is CZ Importing more Bren 2s's into the country?
How do you define a perfectly gassed rifle? What is that to you?
For me, its a rifle that functions properly without malfunctions, ejects consistently to the 3 or 4 o'clock. Does not beat up cases during the extraction process and "feels" (subjective) nice, ie not violent but pleasant to shoot regardless of caliber.
My 9 inch bren is none of these things although for a 7.62X39, the gun does track fairly well in recoil but I believe that is inherent to the entire design of the system as my 556 gun is also slightly over gassed but also tracks REALLY well.
It's pretty easy when you've shot multiple guns to understand what a perfectly gassed rifle is. It is pretty much exactly as you have described.
It doesn't have sharp recoil, the ejection parts and other openings don't have excess gas spewing out of it and ejected casings land in the exact same spot about the 3 O'clock position.
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More fishing around for info, but it may be a good idea to get down what date of mfg for everyone's rifles as well. BCG should have a date code that either says 18, 19, or 20.
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More fishing around for info, but it may be a good idea to get down what date of mfg for everyone's rifles as well. BCG should have a date code that either says 18, 19, or 20.
I think this could be a fantastic idea!
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My 9" Bren 2 has had at least 25+ malfunctions in the roughly 600-700 rounds I have put through it. It has happened with both my HBI handguard and Stock handguard.
I have also had an issue with the pistol stripping the first round from a full magazine as well. This happened on my very first range trip, stock gun.
Also, my Bolt carrier is dated 19.
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My old Bren 2s that was extremely reliable showed a 2018 dated BCG ( I looked back at the original photos of it). My new Bren 2s 11" pistol shows a date or 2020.
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What's was the verdict of MAC's video torture test of the Bren 2?
Sorry, don't have patreon - the Cliff Notes synopsis will do.
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This is second hand info but apparently he fired 2100 rounds without issue.
I guess CZ saw the video and called him. I'm not sure what the context of the phone call was.
Conceptually speaking, videos like his are either extremely hurtful, or helpful. I'm hoping its the latter.
CZ can choose to sweep the issue under the rug and reference a "successful" video like MAC's, or they can acknowledge that there is a small percentage of issues and fix it quietly and successfully. I'm hoping its the latter.
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CZ can choose to sweep the issue under the rug and reference a "successful" video like MAC's, or they can acknowledge that there is a small percentage of issues and fix it quietly and successfully. I'm hoping its the latter.
While I'm all for any company voluntarily fixing issues with any of their manufactured products, the obvious first thing to do is identify if there is an "issue". Just because 5 or 6 very vocal people complain loudly doesn't constitute an "issue". Especially if those 5 or 6 are from a total population numbering in the thousands.
There is no evidence so far of a single point of failure. If there is no single point "issue", then how can it be "fixed" ? And if it can't be "fixed", where then is the "sweeping the issue under the rug" ?
Everyone must admit that it could just as easily boil down to users purchasing an array of shoddy ammo. How can CZ be held responsible because users are purchasing the cheapest, crap ammo they can find ?
So although the level of rhetoric on this subject has already reached the level of "trial by Oprah" and CZ has already been pronounced guilty, we are far from that point. Oprah, Dr Phil, et al need to turn down the rhetoric. As it stands, some comments are no better than BLM accusing people they've never seen before of being "racist". Let's not sink that low.
;)
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We need to have round count, ammunition choice, barrel lengths reported even for non-issues.
Also, purchase date. As we know, there were two shipments of Bren 2S's into the country, 2018 & 2020.
My old Bren 2s was a 9" 7.62x39mm 2018 model one of the first ones into the country. I used wolf polyformance with consistent gas & ejection, I shot at least 500 rounds through it with no malfunctions.
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CZ can choose to sweep the issue under the rug and reference a "successful" video like MAC's, or they can acknowledge that there is a small percentage of issues and fix it quietly and successfully. I'm hoping its the latter.
While I'm all for any company voluntarily fixing issues with any of their manufactured products, the obvious first thing to do is identify if there is an "issue". Just because 5 or 6 very vocal people complain loudly doesn't constitute an "issue". Especially if those 5 or 6 are from a total population numbering in the thousands.
There is no evidence so far of a single point of failure. If there is no single point "issue", then how can it be "fixed" ? And if it can't be "fixed", where then is the "sweeping the issue under the rug" ?
Everyone must admit that it could just as easily boil down to users purchasing an array of shoddy ammo. How can CZ be held responsible because users are purchasing the cheapest, crap ammo they can find ?
So although the level of rhetoric on this subject has already reached the level of "trial by Oprah" and CZ has already been pronounced guilty, we are far from that point. Oprah, Dr Phil, et al need to turn down the rhetoric. As it stands, some comments are no better than BLM accusing people they've never seen before of being "racist". Let's not sink that low.
;)
Shoddy ammunition? I've never had a single malfunction in any AKM or Vz.58 related to ammunition. Thousands upon thousands of rounds fired of shoddy ammunition since I was 18 and purchased my first AKM ;D
I'll agree however, that we are a very small community of owners here. This may be an issue with simply a break-in period required on some models, I'm going to fire a case of Golden Tiger on Monday and try to shed some light on the issue from someone who has had problems already. Will heavily oil the bolt as recommended, already moved the CH to the right.
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CZ can choose to sweep the issue under the rug and reference a "successful" video like MAC's, or they can acknowledge that there is a small percentage of issues and fix it quietly and successfully. I'm hoping its the latter.
While I'm all for any company voluntarily fixing issues with any of their manufactured products, the obvious first thing to do is identify if there is an "issue". Just because 5 or 6 very vocal people complain loudly doesn't constitute an "issue". Especially if those 5 or 6 are from a total population numbering in the thousands.
There is no evidence so far of a single point of failure. If there is no single point "issue", then how can it be "fixed" ? And if it can't be "fixed", where then is the "sweeping the issue under the rug" ?
Everyone must admit that it could just as easily boil down to users purchasing an array of shoddy ammo. How can CZ be held responsible because users are purchasing the cheapest, crap ammo they can find ?
So although the level of rhetoric on this subject has already reached the level of "trial by Oprah" and CZ has already been pronounced guilty, we are far from that point. Oprah, Dr Phil, et al need to turn down the rhetoric. As it stands, some comments are no better than BLM accusing people they've never seen before of being "racist". Let's not sink that low.
;)
Not a single person here has decried that CZ is guilty.
Not a single person here is saying that CZ is sweeping the issue under the rug.
Its often the vocal minority that point out potential flaws in products.
Its often the user base in this current world that finds flaws in products. There are tons of people that ascribe to the philosophy of "never buy first generation products". While the Bren 2 is not a first generation product, it could be argued that the MS, for the American market is.
If no one ever shoots their stuff and talks about it and proffers data points, how do we ever hope to improve anything?
The "cheap" ammo thing is a tired argument. Yes, ammo is a part of the system. Yes, some ammo is trash, ala winchester USA Forged. I expect my commercial grade guns to be able to run commercial grade ammo. My particular sample wont even run mil surplus ammo so once again, the argument of "cheap" ammo being the culprit is not fair.
I cant recall a post on this forum in regards to the Bren 2 thus far that has had an overly negative tone. No one here has busted out the pitch forks or the torches and has condemned CZ to the point where their name is Mud. Given their excellent track record for excellent products, most people here are assuming that the people having issues (myself included) will be taken care of.
Personally, I'm not going to come onto a forum and lie for the sake of protecting the fragile hearts of CZ fans. My gun went back with issues, it came back with issues and CZ fluffed me off. I'm not condemning them because as i've said on other forums, CZ may not really know what's going on right now. I work for a huge bureaucracy. Getting anything done is like pulling teeth from a chicken regardless of how badly the men and women on the ground need change affected. I can only imagine what its like at CZ and it will probably take a bit to get the engine spooled up to the point where they either identify an endemic issue, or an isolated issue with a certain batch of guns. I'm willing to wait to a point and see how this pans out. Or, ill move on, no big deal. I know that myself and others are not shy about reporting our experiences.
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CZ can choose to sweep the issue under the rug and reference a "successful" video like MAC's, or they can acknowledge that there is a small percentage of issues and fix it quietly and successfully. I'm hoping its the latter.
While I'm all for any company voluntarily fixing issues with any of their manufactured products, the obvious first thing to do is identify if there is an "issue". Just because 5 or 6 very vocal people complain loudly doesn't constitute an "issue". Especially if those 5 or 6 are from a total population numbering in the thousands.
There is no evidence so far of a single point of failure. If there is no single point "issue", then how can it be "fixed" ? And if it can't be "fixed", where then is the "sweeping the issue under the rug" ?
Everyone must admit that it could just as easily boil down to users purchasing an array of shoddy ammo. How can CZ be held responsible because users are purchasing the cheapest, crap ammo they can find ?
So although the level of rhetoric on this subject has already reached the level of "trial by Oprah" and CZ has already been pronounced guilty, we are far from that point. Oprah, Dr Phil, et al need to turn down the rhetoric. As it stands, some comments are no better than BLM accusing people they've never seen before of being "racist". Let's not sink that low.
;)
I'm pretty sure they were just saying that CZ could do one of two things. If they choose not to do anything, they have the MAC video to point to and say, "see errythang's fine." I don't think anyone has accused CZ of burying the issue already, but they're hoping that they don't. No one said CZ is guilty, yet. They're speculating on courses of action that CZ may take. I don't see anything wrong with people getting upset their expensive product isn't working and then get even more upset when they're blamed for it not working. We don't have access to CZ's repair ticket history. There's no way to know if it's "only 5 or 6 very vocal people." There may be many more with issues that don't participate on this forum.
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Went to the range again today, and brought 9 mags of wolf polyformance, the same ammo I've ever only shot in my 2S, and pretty much did 2x 4-5 mag dumps straight, and magically did not experience a single failure. Gun was super toasty, but no issues experienced aside from the expected 1-2 o'clock ejection. Did notice however that on the last two mags, 3 or so rounds of each ejected to the 3-4 o'clock position. Not sure if the key to reliability is to keep the gun as dirty as possible so less gas makes it into the system or something dumb like that. Will do another trip in a couple weeks and see what happens. Having the previous 300+ rounds experience 2-3 ftes each, then doing a quick dump of 270 rounds completely flawlessly, I have no idea what the bleep is going on with this thing.
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CZ can choose to sweep the issue under the rug and reference a "successful" video like MAC's....
Not a single person here is saying that CZ is sweeping the issue under the rug.
OK.
I'm not saying your gun doesn't have a problem. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be upset. I'm not saying you don't have a right to voice your disapproval.
All I'm saying is this thread reads like there's a giant conspiracy to cover up a single issue with one model. While I agree several owners are having trouble, no one has proved it's all related to a single item. While several guns fail to eject, there are so many contributors to proper ejection that 7 guns could all have 7 completely un-related causes which all result in the same outcome.
Secondly, while "blowing off steam" may feel good, it is unproductive. This forum has a friendly relationship with CZUSA, but we are in no way associated with CZ, CZUSA or any affiliate. There is no evidence that anyone from CZUSA monitors these threads... ever. If you want to take action that has real hopes of getting a result, then I suggest you call CZUSA, form a relationship with one of their appropriate representatives, and send them a video of your gun having the issue. That way they can see it for themselves. If you can demo the same issue with several brands of ammunition then you have a real chance of them taking positive action.
But if you're posting words and photos here hoping to get CZ's attention, it just ain't gonna happen. ;)
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CZ can choose to sweep the issue under the rug and reference a "successful" video like MAC's....
Not a single person here is saying that CZ is sweeping the issue under the rug.
OK.
I'm not saying your gun doesn't have a problem. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be upset. I'm not saying you don't have a right to voice your disapproval.
All I'm saying is this thread reads like there's a giant conspiracy to cover up a single issue with one model. While I agree several owners are having trouble, no one has proved it's all related to a single item. While several guns fail to eject, there are so many contributors to proper ejection that 7 guns could all have 7 completely un-related causes which all result in the same outcome.
Secondly, while "blowing off steam" may feel good, it is unproductive. This forum has a friendly relationship with CZUSA, but we are in no way associated with CZ, CZUSA or any affiliate. There is no evidence that anyone from CZUSA monitors these threads... ever. If you want to take action that has real hopes of getting a result, then I suggest you call CZUSA, form a relationship with one of their appropriate representatives, and send them a video of your gun having the issue. That way they can see it for themselves. If you can demo the same issue with several brands of ammunition then you have a real chance of them taking positive action.
But if you're posting words and photos here hoping to get CZ's attention, it just ain't gonna happen. ;)
Your interpretation of my posts seems very skewed...
I posted two hypothetical situations above based upon experiences as a consumer that i've had over my lifetime. Car companies for example are notorious for not honoring their warranties which you have to fight for in order to have honored. Its a "thing".
Once again, i'm not saying that CZ is going to do anything of the sort, I merely laid out two possible hypothetical responses on a forum where we talk about these things.
I have already sent my gun back to CZ. They did not assist me the first time around. They did not respond to the letter I included, or the offer to send video and pictures. I'm also not the only one that has had a similar experience. I'm not implying that CZ is sweeping anything under the rug. As I mentioned earlier, whomever is looking at these guns simply may not be aware of what they need to be looking for. There are also inconsistencies that need verification. MAC's post 2000 round test and subsequent response from CZ affirmed that these guns were MADE TO SHOOT LACQUERED STEEL COMBLOC AMMO. Some users have reported that the tech's are sending guns back indicating that the chambers were "filled with lacquer". So, what is the REAL information?
Like the forum owner, I too am also very busy and haven't had a chance to send the gun back just yet. I also haven't had a chance to put more rounds through it to once again thoroughly document my findings post warranty service.
None of this is personal and none of this is "blowing off steam" for the "feels". My findings are not anecdotal and they are not second hand. Its my time on the range, my ammo and my sample size of two guns. Its a forum where we are supposed to talk about CZ guns and our experiences? No? If that's not the case then ill stop posting in the manner that I do if its not in the spirit of the forum.
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Your interpretation of my posts seems very skewed...
I posted to hypothetical situations above based upon experiences as a consumer that i've had over my lifetime. Car companies for example are notorious for not honoring their warranties which you have to fight for in order to have honored. Its a "thing".
Once again, i'm not saying that CZ is going to do anything of the sort, I merely laid out two possible hypothetical responses on a forum where we talk about these things.
I have already sent my gun back to CZ. They did not assist me the first time around. They did not respond to the letter I included, or the offer to send video and pictures. I'm also not the only one that has had a similar experience. I'm not implying that CZ is sweeping anything under the rug. As I mentioned earlier, whomever is looking at these guns simply may not be aware of what they need to be looking for. There are also inconsistencies that need verification. MAC's post 2000 round test and subsequent response from CZ affirmed that these guns were MADE TO SHOOT LACQUERED STEEL COMBLOC AMMO. Some users have reported that the tech's are sending guns back indicating that the chambers were "filled with lacquer". So, what is the REAL information?
Like the forum owner, I too am also very busy and haven't had a chance to send the gun back just yet. I also haven't had a chance to put more rounds through it to once again thoroughly document my findings post warranty service.
None of this is personal and none of this is "blowing off steam" for the "feels". My findings are not anecdotal and they are not second hand. Its my time on the range, my ammo and my sample size of two guns. Its a forum where we are supposed to talk about CZ guns and our experiences? No? If that's not the case then ill stop posting in the manner that I do if its not in the spirit of the forum.
I find it interesting that CZUSA says the problem is ammunition related, but they're testing guns and ruling it ammunition related based on only one ammo type being used for testing. The CZ rep on reddit basically stated that they don't have much ammo right now and the tester essentially ran 80 rounds of a single type ammo to test the gun. What if the gun does run well with that one particular type of ammo, but all other ammo runs like crap? Would that be ammo related? Sure, but are you then required to only run that one specific ammo from now on? He did state that they're trying to source more to test multiple ammos, which is good, but then wouldn't it be premature to blame lacquered ammo when they didn't have any to test with? Just thought it was interesting. I am glad an actual rep is updating people on what's being done. Most companies wouldn't do that.
PSA: I'm not accusing the CZ gun testers of some conspiracy. Im not even trying to accuse CZ of doing something wrong. I'm merely hypothesizing if their methodology is flawed. Questioning a methodology and questioning their reasoning and even speculating possible courses of action =/= a "trial by Oprah."
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I'm fortunate that I haven't had any reliability issues with my Bren 2Ms -- so far(knock on wood). If anything, my gun probably verges on being undergassed as it only kicks spent shells out 6 or 8 feet.
However, I've run all types of "dirty Soviet steel case garbage" 7.62x39 ammo through it: Tula, Barnaul, Monarch, Wolf (lacquer & polymer), Golden Tiger, etc. as well as SST, SSA/Nosler and Winchester ballistic tips.
So, I think the "shoddy ammo" excuse is a bunch of bs. These are (supposedly) military guns with an "adverse condition" gas setting for a dirty gun/ammo, so they SHOULD be able handle a wide array of ammunition brands. I've never experienced any "over pressure" com bloc ammo that would otherwise lead to these type of overpassing failures.
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CZ can choose to sweep the issue under the rug and reference a "successful" video like MAC's....
Not a single person here is saying that CZ is sweeping the issue under the rug.
OK.
I'm not saying your gun doesn't have a problem. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be upset. I'm not saying you don't have a right to voice your disapproval.
All I'm saying is this thread reads like there's a giant conspiracy to cover up a single issue with one model. While I agree several owners are having trouble, no one has proved it's all related to a single item. While several guns fail to eject, there are so many contributors to proper ejection that 7 guns could all have 7 completely un-related causes which all result in the same outcome.
Secondly, while "blowing off steam" may feel good, it is unproductive. This forum has a friendly relationship with CZUSA, but we are in no way associated with CZ, CZUSA or any affiliate. There is no evidence that anyone from CZUSA monitors these threads... ever. If you want to take action that has real hopes of getting a result, then I suggest you call CZUSA, form a relationship with one of their appropriate representatives, and send them a video of your gun having the issue. That way they can see it for themselves. If you can demo the same issue with several brands of ammunition then you have a real chance of them taking positive action.
But if you're posting words and photos here hoping to get CZ's attention, it just ain't gonna happen. ;)
Both time my pistol has been to CZ I included a detailed narration of the malfunctions I was experiencing, with the narration I included the web address to my video of the pistol malfunctioning. I also included a link when I filled out the warranty claim, both times. Not once have they ever acknowledged even watching it. I posted after the rep on reddit and he responded with questions that were answered in my first post. I want my gun to be fixed, but when you provide the same link multiple times and answer the same questions over and over your faith in the company begins to be tested.
Dont get me wrong, I'm going to continue to work with them and see the issue to its end, but you can see how I might be rather upset .
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On today menu for the 11” Bren 2s, we have many various 7.62x39 rounds. I may not get to shoot it all, but will report back later on the results
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200905/e0b9431dfdf92b4a5b10d027afbd4368.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200905/8cc73ee23c6fa291faca10a75d39a4bc.jpg)
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😎 looks real fun! I'll be at the range on Monday.
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So I had time to put another 270 rounds of various steel case down range. I experienced 0 failures. Shells throughout the range of loadings I shot are ejecting pretty consistently about 6 feet forward at about 1:30 on the clock, with a few of them bouncing off of the front of the ejection port and flipping forward only a couple feet.
The gun is punchy, and feels a bit overgassed. I would expect that from a military rifle. However I would also rather slow down the bolt speed a bit based on the recoil impulse and the ejection pattern, as well as the casings hitting the front of the ejection port. I took photos of my ejection port, bolt, and the gas regulator. Here is the exact round count:
2020 Bren 2s 11” 7.62x39
Brass:
120 rds Geco Target
Steel:
60 rds Golden Tiger 124gr FMJ
60 rds Red Army Standard 124gr 8V3 HP
60 Tulammo Range Friendly 122gr FMJ
30 rds Barnaul 123gr HP
30 rds Tulammo 154gr SP
30 rds Wolf 124gr 8M3 HP
Total rounds fired: 390
Failure Count: 0
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200906/f1e88650f83752ed5434448f715a2535.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200906/9e74b18c45a65a9f99e2d05a703e1b27.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200906/be1203a9ddd1ea1bf33de6363bb91f7f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200906/dc2e095b123236e27c13ebcaa8769564.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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^ Thanks for posting that - I've had zero malfunctions (knock on wood) with the same or similar Russian steel cased ammo plus US ballistic tips. Mine doesn't seem to care for SPs in general, not good accuracy, probably because it mashes the SP tip when chambering, but still functions without fail this far. So, I'm gonna call BS on the "shoddy ammo" theory, more likely some shoddy QC at CZ when they drilled the gas ports.
I'm not sure that the Bren 2 is punchy because it's overgassed (at least the ones that aren't having FTE problems) as it is that they kick more because they're so light. Similar sized pistols, the Zastava ZPAP weighs 6.6 pounds, a SAM7k milled AK, I'm going to guess weighs over 8 pounds, fitted with the usual heavy duty steel surplus AK mags are going to be significantly heavier than a Bren 2 at 5.6 pounds with lightweight plastic CZ or aluminum AR magazines.
Looking at the poll, we've gotta have more than just 14 Bren 2 owners on this board! ::)
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Looking at the poll, we've gotta have more than just 14 Bren 2 owners on this board! ::)
I just got an 11” about 10 days ago. I’ve only had time to put 2 boxes of Red Army Standard through it (no issues) but it’s too soon for me to vote. I could vote no issues but that wouldn’t be fair this early in the game. I’ll report back after more range trips.
I was hoping to pick up the HBI extended handguard, but now thinking maybe not. Doesn’t matter, they’re out of stock, maybe for redesign.
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So is anyone in the know on if CZ will be addressing the over-gassing issue or will it not be considered an issue since it is a military weapon? I have been wanting to get one of these for a while, but now I feel like I need to wait until CZ address's the issues. Im also wanting to run this suppressed, and concerned about the impact of that as well.
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So is anyone in the know on if CZ will be addressing the over-gassing issue or will it not be considered an issue since it is a military weapon? I have been wanting to get one of these for a while, but now I feel like I need to wait until CZ address's the issues. Im also wanting to run this suppressed, and concerned about the impact of that as well.
That is all up in the air.
For all we know, CZ designed the gun around these gas port sizes to operate as it does. They may say "nope, this is how it was designed and is functioning as it should".
We will have to see. As it stands, there are a few work arounds. You can go ahead and drill your own port size or you can get a flow through suppressor design.
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Sadly, fired 120 rounds again today. 8 FTE's. Videos will be up later on ARFCOM.
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So is anyone in the know on if CZ will be addressing the over-gassing issue or will it not be considered an issue since it is a military weapon? I have been wanting to get one of these for a while, but now I feel like I need to wait until CZ address's the issues. Im also wanting to run this suppressed, and concerned about the impact of that as well.
I took mine to the range this morning and ran it suppressed for the first time. I have the 11”. I’m using the Sig SRD762QD. I ran 100 rounds of wolf polyformance with zero issues. I also ran 40 rounds of golden bear subs. Using subs there were some cycling issues that were corrected by switching to the adverse setting.
Talking to my buddy at the range he told me if I have issues I could have the gas plug drilled and tapped and that Parker mountain machine sells set screws that are drilled out to various sizes for such an application on the SCAR. The screws are about $7 each but can be had in a variety of hole sizes and there is a big thread on ar15.com with data about ideal port size for various barrel lengths. This sounds like a possible solution to fine tune the gas.
On a side note, when shooting suppressed with full power ammo there were some small flames from the gas plug area.
Rob
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So is anyone in the know on if CZ will be addressing the over-gassing issue or will it not be considered an issue since it is a military weapon? I have been wanting to get one of these for a while, but now I feel like I need to wait until CZ address's the issues. Im also wanting to run this suppressed, and concerned about the impact of that as well.
I took mine to the range this morning and ran it suppressed for the first time. I have the 11”. I’m using the Sig SRD762QD. I ran 100 rounds of wolf polyformance with zero issues. I also ran 40 rounds of golden bear subs. Using subs there were some cycling issues that were corrected by switching to the adverse setting.
Talking to my buddy at the range he told me if I have issues I could have the gas plug drilled and tapped and that Parker mountain machine sells set screws that are drilled out to various sizes for such an application on the SCAR. The screws are about $7 each but can be had in a variety of hole sizes and there is a big thread on ar15.com with data about ideal port size for various barrel lengths. This sounds like a possible solution to fine tune the gas.
On a side note, when shooting suppressed with full power ammo there were some small flames from the gas plug area.
Rob
Can you post a link for this? Id really like to have the "0" spot tapped for this to give it a try as I plan to run an OSS suppressor on mine.
Hello all! I have a "20" bolt and have had no failures yet. All brass ammo though but I have 1000rds of steel wolf stuff coming so ill try that out. Its a recently purchased 9" 7.62 with HBI everything. The hand guard is the 7.8" model. So far i love it but haven't had much time to shoot or find ammo. Magazines are a whole other issue.
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To anyone that sees this and has a HBI hand guard have you pulled out your recoil spring and tested to see if your bolt cycles freely? When I initially put the handguard on mine bound up pretty bad to the point it was almost jammed in there. I didn't like HBI's response of 45inlbs for such an important piece. I then began trouble shooting and found that flipping the bolt plates and re-torquing everything to 70inlbs did the trick. They then sent me new bolt plates with hardware and washers (thanks HBI) but when i assembled it up it was that same issue. This time I decided to mess with it using different torque sequences and eventually it torqued properly to 70inlbs and no binding what so ever. Im talking about removing the recoil spring and the bolt moves completely butter smooth. Im curious if some of you that have issues are cycling it and thinking its smooth but with the recoil spring in it can "hide" a little binding in the receiver as this happen to me. At one point i assembled everything and thought nice it works and pull the spring out and it was still binding. When I watched a video in the other thread of the guys stove pipe it seriously looked like the bolt was binding. Could have been just bit dirty but when he sent the bolt home it look like it was barely making it home. Almost look "crunchy". Anyway just my thoughts. I joined the forum as i found out about this from recently buying a "20" model MS that has a 20 bolt. I have 1000rds of wolf on the way and will let you know what the results are in a few weeks.
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So is anyone in the know on if CZ will be addressing the over-gassing issue or will it not be considered an issue since it is a military weapon? I have been wanting to get one of these for a while, but now I feel like I need to wait until CZ address's the issues. Im also wanting to run this suppressed, and concerned about the impact of that as well.
I took mine to the range this morning and ran it suppressed for the first time. I have the 11”. I’m using the Sig SRD762QD. I ran 100 rounds of wolf polyformance with zero issues. I also ran 40 rounds of golden bear subs. Using subs there were some cycling issues that were corrected by switching to the adverse setting.
Talking to my buddy at the range he told me if I have issues I could have the gas plug drilled and tapped and that Parker mountain machine sells set screws that are drilled out to various sizes for such an application on the SCAR. The screws are about $7 each but can be had in a variety of hole sizes and there is a big thread on ar15.com with data about ideal port size for various barrel lengths. This sounds like a possible solution to fine tune the gas.
On a side note, when shooting suppressed with full power ammo there were some small flames from the gas plug area.
Rob
Can you post a link for this? Id really like to have the "0" spot tapped for this to give it a try as I plan to run an OSS suppressor on mine.
Hello all! I have a "20" bolt and have had no failures yet. All brass ammo though but I have 1000rds of steel wolf stuff coming so ill try that out. Its a recently purchased 9" 7.62 with HBI everything. The hand guard is the 7.8" model. So far i love it but haven't had much time to shoot or find ammo. Magazines are a whole other issue.
It's too bad that the Bren 2 (and most other such guns) don't have an FAL style gas regulator with multiple orifices that you can just dial in at will. Maybe somebody will come up with such in the aftermarket, but we can't even get spare gas plugs to play with (or ANY spare parts) from CZ USA at this point, which is ridiculous.
This is the Parker Mountain thing for the SCAR, they also have multiple gas jets for sale with different orifice sizes. Quite a system but looks like that would be quite a job to screw with to get it to work on a Bren 2.
https://www.parkermountainmachine.com/store/p464/Scar_16%2F17%2F20%2FSC__Gas_Jet_Tool.html
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So is anyone in the know on if CZ will be addressing the over-gassing issue or will it not be considered an issue since it is a military weapon? I have been wanting to get one of these for a while, but now I feel like I need to wait until CZ address's the issues. Im also wanting to run this suppressed, and concerned about the impact of that as well.
I took mine to the range this morning and ran it suppressed for the first time. I have the 11”. I’m using the Sig SRD762QD. I ran 100 rounds of wolf polyformance with zero issues. I also ran 40 rounds of golden bear subs. Using subs there were some cycling issues that were corrected by switching to the adverse setting.
Talking to my buddy at the range he told me if I have issues I could have the gas plug drilled and tapped and that Parker mountain machine sells set screws that are drilled out to various sizes for such an application on the SCAR. The screws are about $7 each but can be had in a variety of hole sizes and there is a big thread on ar15.com with data about ideal port size for various barrel lengths. This sounds like a possible solution to fine tune the gas.
On a side note, when shooting suppressed with full power ammo there were some small flames from the gas plug area.
Rob
Can you post a link for this? Id really like to have the "0" spot tapped for this to give it a try as I plan to run an OSS suppressor on mine.
Hello all! I have a "20" bolt and have had no failures yet. All brass ammo though but I have 1000rds of steel wolf stuff coming so ill try that out. Its a recently purchased 9" 7.62 with HBI everything. The hand guard is the 7.8" model. So far i love it but haven't had much time to shoot or find ammo. Magazines are a whole other issue.
It's too bad that the Bren 2 (and most other such guns) don't have an FAL style gas regulator with multiple orifices that you can just dial in at will. Maybe somebody will come up with such in the aftermarket, but we can't even get spare gas plugs to play with (or ANY spare parts) from CZ USA at this point, which is ridiculous.
This is the Parker Mountain thing for the SCAR, they also have multiple gas jets for sale with different orifice sizes. Quite a system but looks like that would be quite a job to screw with to get it to work on a Bren 2.
https://www.parkermountainmachine.com/store/p464/Scar_16%2F17%2F20%2FSC__Gas_Jet_Tool.html
Interesting, I think all id need to do is actually drill out the #2 adverse hole large enough to get a set screw like that tapped in there and run it flush to the selector. That would give you the option to drill it out larger and larger tell you figure out what works best. I dont think thatd be to hard of a procedure.
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So is anyone in the know on if CZ will be addressing the over-gassing issue or will it not be considered an issue since it is a military weapon? I have been wanting to get one of these for a while, but now I feel like I need to wait until CZ address's the issues. Im also wanting to run this suppressed, and concerned about the impact of that as well.
I took mine to the range this morning and ran it suppressed for the first time. I have the 11”. I’m using the Sig SRD762QD. I ran 100 rounds of wolf polyformance with zero issues. I also ran 40 rounds of golden bear subs. Using subs there were some cycling issues that were corrected by switching to the adverse setting.
Talking to my buddy at the range he told me if I have issues I could have the gas plug drilled and tapped and that Parker mountain machine sells set screws that are drilled out to various sizes for such an application on the SCAR. The screws are about $7 each but can be had in a variety of hole sizes and there is a big thread on ar15.com with data about ideal port size for various barrel lengths. This sounds like a possible solution to fine tune the gas.
On a side note, when shooting suppressed with full power ammo there were some small flames from the gas plug area.
Rob
Can you post a link for this? Id really like to have the "0" spot tapped for this to give it a try as I plan to run an OSS suppressor on mine.
Hello all! I have a "20" bolt and have had no failures yet. All brass ammo though but I have 1000rds of steel wolf stuff coming so ill try that out. Its a recently purchased 9" 7.62 with HBI everything. The hand guard is the 7.8" model. So far i love it but haven't had much time to shoot or find ammo. Magazines are a whole other issue.
It's too bad that the Bren 2 (and most other such guns) don't have an FAL style gas regulator with multiple orifices that you can just dial in at will. Maybe somebody will come up with such in the aftermarket, but we can't even get spare gas plugs to play with (or ANY spare parts) from CZ USA at this point, which is ridiculous.
This is the Parker Mountain thing for the SCAR, they also have multiple gas jets for sale with different orifice sizes. Quite a system but looks like that would be quite a job to screw with to get it to work on a Bren 2.
https://www.parkermountainmachine.com/store/p464/Scar_16%2F17%2F20%2FSC__Gas_Jet_Tool.html
Interesting, I think all id need to do is actually drill out the #2 adverse hole large enough to get a set screw like that tapped in there and run it flush to the selector. That would give you the option to drill it out larger and larger tell you figure out what works best. I dont think thatd be to hard of a procedure.
I’ve been told it’s about a $25 job got a competent gunsmith.
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It's too bad that the Bren 2 (and most other such guns) don't have an FAL style gas regulator with multiple orifices that you can just dial in at will. Maybe somebody will come up with such in the aftermarket, but we can't even get spare gas plugs to play with (or ANY spare parts) from CZ USA at this point, which is ridiculous.
This is the Parker Mountain thing for the SCAR, they also have multiple gas jets for sale with different orifice sizes. Quite a system but looks like that would be quite a job to screw with to get it to work on a Bren 2.
https://www.parkermountainmachine.com/store/p464/Scar_16%2F17%2F20%2FSC__Gas_Jet_Tool.html
I love this about the XCR. You can really fine tune your gas settings with a ton of adjustments. Not all ammo plays nicely at predetermined gas settings, so if you get a batch of ammo that runs at gas setting "4" but the next runs better at "3" you can adjust as needed. I don't know why more manufactures don't do this. Maybe they don't trust the end user to know how to adjust? I digress...
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I’ve been told it’s about a $25 job got a competent gunsmith.
I've tried calling around and a few said they wouldn't touch it. I tried to drill out the adverse hole in order tap it for a stainless steel set screw in order to be able to adjust the gas system by putting in different set screws with different holes drilled through them, Unfortunately I was trying to drill through the adverse #2 hole and couldn't get through. Not sure what bits I have but the material seems EXTREMELY hard and looked like it wanted to chip away versus cut so i gave up. Any gunsmiths on here know what this gas regulator sleeve is made of? and how to cut through it?
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I believe it's a powdered metal part. They can be extremely tough. You might eventually get a drill bit through it with enough lube and time, but you probably won't be tapping threads into it.
Great idea though.
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I believe it's a powdered metal part. They can be extremely tough. You might eventually get a drill bit through it with enough lube and time, but you probably won't be tapping threads into it.
Great idea though.
Thank you! I've got pretty good drill bits but im not willing to destroy them over this. I underestimated the hardness of it for sure. I'm extremely curious if someone with the means could recreate the part with billet steel in order to tap it for the set screws. This would allow a wide variety of different gas settings via different set screws.
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Thank you! I've got pretty good drill bits but im not willing to destroy them over this. I underestimated the hardness of it for sure. I'm extremely curious if someone with the means could recreate the part with billet steel in order to tap it for the set screws.
Any machine shop could make the part, but....
• There's no way to know the stress on the part and therefore select the correct steel alloy
• Being a gun part, the liability might be too high for most shops. Lawn mower part - no problem; gun part - big problem.
Another solution might be to skip the threads altogether. Drill as proposed, then counter sink. The fact that the bolt rides inside a bolt carrier keeps the orifice in place. The orifice could be made from common flat head rivets, drilled to multiple diameters through the center as you proposed.
;)
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Thank you! I've got pretty good drill bits but im not willing to destroy them over this. I underestimated the hardness of it for sure. I'm extremely curious if someone with the means could recreate the part with billet steel in order to tap it for the set screws.
Any machine shop could make the part, but....
• There's no way to know the stress on the part and therefore select the correct steel alloy
• Being a gun part, the liability might be too high for most shops. Lawn mower part - no problem; gun part - big problem.
Another solution might be to skip the threads altogether. Drill as proposed, then counter sink. The fact that the bolt rides inside a bolt carrier keeps the orifice in place. The orifice could be made from common flat head rivets, drilled to multiple diameters through the center as you proposed.
;)
That's exactly what I was afraid of. Im no engineer but that part could be under some decent stress. I see what you're saying with the rivets though.
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I have an 11” Bren 2s in 7.62x39, made in 2019, with original hand guards. I shoot mostly Tulammo, with some Barnul, and some S&B.
My cases mostly eject at 1-2:00. The gun is over gassed, but I haven’t had FTEs.
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Hello everyone!
First post here, I've had a bren 2s, 7.62x39, 9 inch with a mempro site for a year and no issues. Probably 300 or so rounds including a most recent 4 mag dump. All tula, herters and cheap brass cased ( 40 rounds of ZVS from Macedonia) ammo. Shot a mixture of soft point, hollow points and ball. 122 gr, 124, 143 gr, etc. No issues. No mods other than the optic, magpul rail panel covers and SBA3
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To recap, in the 3 or so years that the semi auto Bren 2 has been imported to the US, the consensus is now that the FTE malfunctions in 7.62x39 guns are caused by over-gassing (probably from over-sized gas ports) and/or failed extractors / springs (caused by swarf and crud in the extractor channel, probably from the factory).
Unfortunately, CZ USA has done little to nothing to provide parts or service to fix these guns. Fortunately, HBI seems to have come up with a fix for the over-gassing by drilling a smaller gas port in the gas tube position #3 and providing a stiffer piston spring, which seems to have fixed the problem, at least for most guns with FTE problems.
Until CZ fixes the problem itself, it would be useful for Bren 2 owners to share info on their particular caliber, round count, barrel length, the measured size of their gas ports and whether or not they’re having malfunctions, etc. Pin gauges are an easy way to accurately measure gas port sizes.
Mine is an 11” 7.62x39 with @ 1,000 rounds and no FTE malfunctions, so far. Gas port #1 = @ 0.0745” (1.89mm). Position #2 = 0.097” (2.46mm).
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Here’s another one:
16” 5.56 caliber Bren 2 carbine:
#1 0.071” (@ 1.8034mm)
#2. 0.096” (@ 2.44mm)
NOTE: has a different diameter piston than the x39 model.
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Does anyone know the PSI blowing through those ports? I'm working on an adjustable gas port and wanted to get a general idea of the amount of stress that will be subjected on internal parts.