The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: ropedrag on September 05, 2020, 07:06:49 PM
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Not new to reloading but 100% new to pistol reloading and would appreciate a bit of help. I tend to “overthink” so If you make it thought this and can offer advice it’s super appreciated! Also, my use is plinking and target shooting at the range with the goal of getting MUCH better with the pistol, trust me I've a ways to go!
So.... I went out and bought a new Shadow 2 Orange and why not, a new Scorpion EVO 3 S1 carbine as well (had to tell the wife it was for her)
Anyway, I’ve bullets from RMR! (learned about these here)
9mm 124 Gr. RMR FMJ Truncated Cone Flat Point MatchWinner Bullets
And
9mm 124 Gr. Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose Bullets (Brass Jackets)
I plunk tested both bullets in both barrels, and found the scorpion can handle .010 longer but I intend to load to the shorter COL of the Shadow 2 Orange and use for both guns. Reasonable, yes?
AFTER subtracting .015 from the plunk test length(s) I have
COL of 1.140 for the 124 Gr. Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose Bullets (Brass Jackets)
And
COL of 1.090 for the 124 Gr. RMR FMJ Truncated Cone Flat Point MatchWinner Bullets
Where I could use some additional help is matching up these bullets with powder load data. For powder I went a bit crazy and now have a bit more than my fair share of Alliant Sport Pistol and Vihtavuori 320, (both powders I've read great comments about here)
Allient…..https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlistprint.aspx?page=%2freloaders%2fpowderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=42&cartridge=23
For my 124 Gr. Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose Bullets (Brass Jackets) I’m thinking this would be closest to the load chart for “124 gr FMJ” with minimum OAL of 1.12” (that I’ll be loading to 1.14”). Sound correct? Charge weight listed at 4.5 gr so I’ll back off 10% and start at 3.9 gr
For my 124 Gr. RMR FMJ Truncated Cone Flat Point MatchWinner Bullets… Yeah I’m not really sure which 124 gr bullets on their list is the best fit…??
Vihtavuori….. https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/?cartridge=89
For my 124 Gr. Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose Bullets (Brass Jackets) I’m thinking this would be closest to the load chart for “124 gr Lapua, FNJ-RN” with C.O.L. listed at 1.142” (that I’ll be loading to 1.14”). This seems to fit well. Starting weight at 3.4 gr and max at 4.0 gr
For my 124 Gr. RMR FMJ Truncated Cone Flat Point MatchWinner Bullets. Again I’m unsure on this bullet, if I follow the C.O.L numbers it would push me towards the “125 gr Hornady HAP” listing a C.O.L at 1.102 (that I’ll be loading to 1.090 Starting weight at 3.2 gr and max at 3.9 gr
One last question. I have no means to Chrono the pistol but I’ve a magnetoSpeed Chrono for the rifle. I know it’s not ideal but I’m thinking that since the loads are the exact same I’m going to use in the Shadow 2 and the scorpion I’ll use the rifle data for SD and ES to dial in the load. Thoughts?
Thanks again!
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From my load testing, for the N320 3.8gn - 4.0gn will give you a nice target load. For the Sport Pistol 3.8gn - 4.2gn will get you a nice target load.
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One last question. I have no means to Chrono the pistol but I’ve a magnetoSpeed Chrono for the rifle. I know it’s not ideal but I’m thinking that since the loads are the exact same I’m going to use in the Shadow 2 and the scorpion I’ll use the rifle data for SD and ES to dial in the load. Thoughts?
I have been at several matches where after the match I watched hand loads being chronoed in PCC's and the results showed much higher velocities then when shot out of a pistol (CZ SP-01 if I remember). The explanation offered was that the longer barrel resulted in higher pressures and more velocity. This is conjurer BUT I would be not extrapolate data from such different platforms.
Just my cautious opinion.
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The longer barrel of the PCC will produce higher velocity as you will benefit from the gas that is normally vented when you only have the 4" pistol barrel. The longer barrel will not produce higher pressure it will just make better use of the pressure curve.
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One last question. I have no means to Chrono the pistol but I’ve a magnetoSpeed Chrono for the rifle. I know it’s not ideal but I’m thinking that since the loads are the exact same I’m going to use in the Shadow 2 and the scorpion I’ll use the rifle data for SD and ES to dial in the load. Thoughts?
I have been at several matches where after the match I watched hand loads being chronoed in PCC's and the results showed much higher velocities then when shot out of a pistol (CZ SP-01 if I remember). The explanation offered was that the longer barrel resulted in higher pressures and more velocity. This is conjurer BUT I would be not extrapolate data from such different platforms.
Just my cautious opinion.
Sorry, I guess I didn't state that well. The chrono data I collect with the scorpion will not be used for looking at speed per se, I'll be looking for low Standard Deviation and low Extreme Spread numbers in 5 shot groups of each charge weight. Like I said I'm a newbe with pistol reloading but weighing my experience with rifle loads, typically in my experience the low SD & ES numbers = and accuracy node. I suspect in some ways the exact same round will retain some performance metrics when used in either the Shadow 2 or Scorpion. Without a way to chrono the pistol and the fact that I'm not good with a pistol to judge accuracy this method is the best I could think up. ;)
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The SD, and ES, numbers from the Scorpion may or may not transfer to the pistol. Also, velocity is what tells us as reloaders if our loads are below, or above, max load. You won't be able to extrapolate that data from the Evo.Doesn't magnetospeed make a pistol mount for the rail?
Your load choices make sense, and are safe as long as you start at starting load.
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Benchresting your Shadow2 with sandbags will help you with judging accuracy. Accuracy in a pistol is a lot different then a rifle and ES/SD may not give you what you are looking for. What is the barrel length of the Scorpion?
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The thing is, one of the rules of reloading is to START with the START load and work up. Maybe only one or two rounds at the low end, but if is the safest way to go.
If your bullets are plated, they should normally be loaded as if they were lead bullets.
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Thanks for the weigh in guys, much appreciated!
@painter, well I just checked and yes, yes they do... ordering now!
@bossgobbler, 16"
@noylj, I always start low :)
Interesting that with all the rifle loads I've developed I look for pressure signs on the spent casing (primer dimple, etc.) or sticking bolt when the powder charge starts nearing published max. It seems with pistol you all are more concerned about exceeding a speed if I'm reading things correctly.
To share my findings.....After I sighted in the scorpion today and before I chrono'd my development loads I chrono'd some S&B 124gr FMJ RN which meaned out @ 1245 fps
With the Allient sport pistol the best charge weight was 4.4 gr with SD, ES and accuracy, it meaned out at 1198 fps
With VV N320 it was not good, a good SD of 6.3 and ES of 16 at 3.9 gr but accuracy was terrible. My ladder went up to 4.0 gr which meaned at 1076 fps. I'm going to ladder up at 4.1, .2, .3 and see if the accuracy doesn't come in. I suspect 4.3 will put me around 1160 fps
PS the stock trigger on the scorpion is a sad little thing. Heavy as hell and no feel for the break.
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The reason that we use velocity as an indicator of max load is that primers are not a particularly good indicator of pressure. By the time you actually see pressure signs you're well into the danger zone.
Since our pistols are not equipped with transducers to read pressure velocity is the only thing we can measure.
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Since our pistols are not equipped with transducers to read pressure velocity is the only thing we can measure.
WHAT?!?! REALLY ?!?!?! You need a better pistol! In the mean time you can send your old one to me and I can verify it doesn't have a transducer! O0
I agree with Painter that you need the info from a barrel length close to what was used for obtaining the numbers from the manufactures, so you should look into getting this for your pistol
https://magnetospeed.com/products/v3-rail-adapter
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Since our pistols are not equipped with transducers to read pressure velocity is the only thing we can measure.
WHAT?!?! REALLY ?!?!?! You need a better pistol! In the mean time you can send your old one to me and I can verify it doesn't have a transducer! O0
I agree with Painter that you need the info from a barrel length close to what was used for obtaining the numbers from the manufactures, so you should look into getting this for your pistol
https://magnetospeed.com/products/v3-rail-adapter
That magnetospeed looks pretty cool, do you have one?
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Thanks for the continued responses.
Just to give myself a bit of reassurance to run the VV N320 up to 4.3 gr in the scorpion with 16" barrel I visited the Ballistics by the inch website and cross referencing with the VV load chart (based on 4" barrel), speed projection wise it looks ok and I should have a decent bit of buffer as well. Suspect I'll find a delta in the neighborhood of 180 fps higher speed in the scorpion over the Shadow 2. So 1070 + 180 = 1250 for max load, and using my speed numbers increase for every 0.1 charge weight increase from my testing thus far + a bit of safety I'm projecting 4.3 to yield 1155 fps
@ Pistolet, yes I've had one for a few years, just ordered the rail attachment. Absolutely love it, and has been instrumental in my rifle load development. Note that I read on the MagentoSpeed sight that the rail attachment doesn't work with a number of CZ pistols, my shadow 2 being one of them, however I've read on a few forums that the fix/workaround is fairly easy... and safe.
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I use a few shims under the pistol adapter when using my MagSpeed with a 75 compact (P-01)
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It seems with pistol you all are more concerned about exceeding a speed if I'm reading things correctly.
You did read us wrong. The vast majority of shooters here care a lot more about accuracy.
And the one thing we've learned is that accuracy never happens at Max Load. It's usually in the 93 to 95% of Max Load range.
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It seems with pistol you all are more concerned about exceeding a speed if I'm reading things correctly.
You did read us wrong. The vast majority of shooters here care a lot more about accuracy.
And the one thing we've learned is that accuracy never happens at Max Load. It's usually in the 93 to 95% of Max Load range.
I interpreted his comment differently than you did.
I read "concerned about exceeding a speed" as meaning an upper velocity limit to make certain you are not over the pressure specification, since there are no obvious pressure indicators.
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@ eastman, for the win
Yes 100% related to concerns of over-pressurization
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It seems with pistol you all are more concerned about exceeding a speed if I'm reading things correctly.
You did read us wrong. The vast majority of shooters here care a lot more about accuracy.
And the one thing we've learned is that accuracy never happens at Max Load. It's usually in the 93 to 95% of Max Load range.
I interpreted his comment differently than you did.
I read "concerned about exceeding a speed" as meaning an upper velocity limit to make certain you are not over the pressure specification, since there are no obvious pressure indicators.
Oh, I get all that. But velocity is a Limit, and not a Goal. We're not out searching for the Limit. We are certainly aware of the Limit and mindful of it, but our concern, our quest is Accuracy.
And I don't think you'll ever get anything over 1080fps out of N320, even with a long barrel. You'll need N330 or N340. I think the data was already collected in a 16" test barrel, and so you won't be getting a free ride over 1100fps. The entire thing about N320 in a pistol is that at Minor PF you're shooting the loads at 98 or 99% of Max Load and thus wringing every ounce of efficiency out of the load. At the highest levels of pistol competition, that's a good thing.
No matter which it is, I believe you have lost sight of the Load Limits if you are truly considering testing 4.2 and 4.3gr of N320 with a 124gr bullet. How dangerous that might be I do not know. N320, being single-based, is rather benign.
All the best.
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No matter which it is, I believe you have lost sight of the Load Limits if you are truly considering testing 4.2 and 4.3gr of N320 with a 124gr bullet. How dangerous that might be I do not know. N320, being single-based, is rather benign.
All the best.
Which brings us back to one of my original questions and the title of this thread. I've two 124 gr bullets, both from RMR, one a FMJ (brass) RN and the other a FMJ tunicated cone. When your specific bullet make/model isn't listed what is the approach?
In this case there are several 124gr bullets referenced in the official VV load data, 3 of which are the the same COL as I'm using, of these two are listing max load of 4.3 and one is 4.0. I chose the 4.0 as max for no other reason than it was the safest choice.
I'm intending on taking this 124gr FMJ RN to 4.3 by way of 4.1, .2 , 3 while watching speed as my benchmark for over pressurization. The only reason I'm doing this is because the charge weights I've tested (3.4 through 4.0 in .01 steps) are inaccurate rounds on target. I'm 100% chasing accuracy and would just as well not have to run up to max to find it but with this bullet, powder, gun combination it appears I may have to.
Watching my speeds means that I'm using the speeds of the max charge weights listed by VV for the 3 with the same COL which are 1066, 1070, 1096. Staying on the low side I'm using 1070, which as stated on their chart is for a 4" barrel.
Using Ballistics buy the inch as a resource it appears there is a delta of about 180fps between a 4" and 16" barrel with 9mm 124gr rounds. So 1070 + 180 = 1250 this is a *calculated* max speed
In the ladder I've loaded and shot thus far (3.4 to 4.0) the typical fps jump per .01 increase of charge weight was 25+/-. Again I was running 5 round steps so it's solid data. Anyway my maximum load thus far, at 4.0 yielded 1109 fps. If the fps steps remain somewhat consistent at 25 fps per .1 and I'm going up .3 it would equal a 75 fps increase over the established 1109 or... 1181. At 1181 this would seem to be in the safe zone in relationship to the 1250 *calculated* max. I'd likely pull the plug a bit over 1200 anyway if it goes that high.
@ wobbly, if you tell me my logic on this is bad or sketchy I will 100% respect that. I'm totally willing to accept that this powder, bullet, gun combo might be a dud, I'm only trying to learn as I go.
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4.3 gr is over max load for a 124 gr RN/FMJ. Why are you doing that?
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Which brings us back to one of my original questions and the title of this thread. I've two 124 gr bullets, both from RMR, one a FMJ (brass) RN and the other a FMJ truncated cone. When your specific bullet make/model isn't listed what is the approach?
Comparable bullets are selected by sheath material and weight. In your case any 124gr jacketed bullet.
In this case there are several 124gr bullets referenced in the official VV load data, 3 of which are the the same COL as I'm using, of these two are listing max load of 4.3 and one is 4.0. I chose the 4.0 as max for no other reason than it was the safest choice.
They don't need to be the same OAL, but it helps. The real criteria is bullet seating depth (actually volume inside the case and under the bullet), which is determined by OAL and bullet length... not merely OAL by itself. This is why we keep a list of bullet lengths.
After all that, beginning at the Starting Load takes out all the other variables.
I'm intending on taking this 124gr FMJ RN to 4.3 by way of 4.1, 4.2 , 4.3gr while watching speed as my benchmark for over pressurization. The only reason I'm doing this is because the charge weights I've tested (3.4 through 4.0 in .01 steps) are inaccurate rounds on target. I'm 100% chasing accuracy and would just as well not have to run up to max to find it but with this bullet, powder, gun combination it appears I may have to.
OK, good. Then I did misunderstand. My apologies. But I don't think there's going to be anything there. Try your next slower powder or N330.
Watching my speeds means that I'm using the speeds of the max charge weights listed by VV for the 3 with the same COL which are 1066, 1070, 1096. Staying on the low side I'm using 1070, which as stated on their chart is for a 4" barrel.
I totally agree with that. Which is why I don't think you'll see any higher speeds.
I only shoot 4" barrels, so I've never looked for listed barrel lengths in the VV manual. I assumed 16" test barrels.
Using Ballistics buy the inch as a resource it appears there is a delta of about 180fps between a 4" and 16" barrel with 9mm 124gr rounds. So 1070 + 180 = 1250 this is a *calculated* max speed.
OK I believe you. But I have no experience in this area.
In the ladder I've loaded and shot thus far (3.4 to 4.0) the typical fps jump per .01 increase of charge weight was 25+/-. Again I was running 5 round steps so it's solid data. Anyway my maximum load thus far, at 4.0 yielded 1109 fps. If the fps steps remain somewhat consistent at 25 fps per 0.1 and I'm going up 0.3gr it would equal a 75 fps increase over the established 1109 or... 1181. At 1181 this would seem to be in the safe zone in relationship to the 1250 *calculated* max. I'd likely pull the plug a bit over 1200 anyway if it goes that high.
0.1gr not .01
You are assuming a simple straight line growth with your 75fps, and it is not. You are also assuming that Velocity and Pressure always advance 1:1, which doesn't always happen at the high end of the load. You need to become super aware of other signs of pressure, and watch for Velocity becoming asymptotic rather than continuing to climb as expected. This cartoon tries to explain...
(https://i.imgur.com/dV6Rm6H.jpg)
The 1:1 relationship is true within the (green) safe loading zone. But Velocity seems to fall off above that, while Chamber Pressure zooms upward, faster and faster. You can really get in trouble fast chasing that "calculated" 10fps bullet velocity that never quite materializes.
And this pitfall typically happens sooner with "faster powders". However, I suspect that's usually with fast double-base powders due to the unstable nature of nitroglycerin content. I have no idea if you are safer because N320 is single-base. I'm not a chemist or a ballistics expert. This is knowledge that I have pieced together. So I have no way to guide you.
@ wobbly, if you tell me my logic on this is bad or sketchy I will 100% respect that. I'm totally willing to accept that this powder, bullet, gun combo might be a dud, I'm only trying to learn as I go.
That's where we all are, my friend. You simply have a material combination that falls outside my area of study.
;)
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In this case there are several 124gr bullets referenced in the official VV load data, 3 of which are the the same COL as I'm using, of these two are listing max load of 4.3 and one is 4.0. I chose the 4.0 as max for no other reason than it was the safest choice.
They don't need to be the same OAL, but it helps. The real criteria is bullet seating depth (actually volume inside the case and under the bullet), which is determined by OAL and bullet length... not merely OAL by itself. This is why we keep a list of bullet lengths.
After all that, beginning at the Starting Load takes out all the other variables.
Thanks Wobbly, Yeah I guess that's an obvious answer... I had thought about it but then overlooked factoring it in. They don't make it easy on us because none of the bullet manufactories list their bullet lengths, the ones I've looked at anyway. But for building pressure in the casing it would be the variable, it's either further in or further out if the COL is the same.
Interesting that the RMR 124 FMJ RN bullet length has a crazy range. I measured 20 and they are very inconstant with a total range of .017 which seems like a lot, and the average being .6050. The RMR FMJ turncated FP match winners however were great at .5540 with a range of .001, maybe that's why we hear good things about them.....
After giving more thought to working the edges with the VV N320 in this situation I'm not going to pursue it. I'd never want to put that load in the Shadow 2 even if it worked out for the scorpion. Besides the Allient Sport Pistol at 4.4 (within published charge weight range) yielded good accuracy and decent ES and SD so I'm going to run with that for the scorpion. Maybe it was simple wishful thinking as opposed to being totally naive that with 2 powders and 2 bullets that I could cook up 4 loads that would perform well in both the scorpion and Shadow 2. Learning all the time!
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Interesting that the RMR 124 FMJ RN bullet length has a crazy range. I measured 20 and they are very inconstant with a total range of .017 which seems like a lot, and the average being .6050. The RMR FMJ turncated FP match winners however were great at .5540 with a range of .001, maybe that's why we hear good things about them.....
After giving more thought to working the edges with the VV N320 in this situation I'm not going to pursue it. I'd never want to put that load in the Shadow 2 even if it worked out for the scorpion. Besides the Allient Sport Pistol at 4.4 (within published charge weight range) yielded good accuracy and decent ES and SD so I'm going to run with that for the scorpion. Maybe it was simple wishful thinking as opposed to being totally naive that with 2 powders and 2 bullets that I could cook up 4 loads that would perform well in both the scorpion and Shadow 2. Learning all the time!
I’m really glad you’re not going to pursue your plan of loading at 4.2 or 4.3 Gr. There’s no need for it especially for a fast powder like N320 imo. Besides, higher velocity doesn’t normally result in better accuracy. By the way, are you reloading for competition or just range plinking?
The match winners are great bullets. I have done load development for my shadow and MPX (8” and 16” barrels) using the same load recipe; 4.0 grains of Sport Pistol @ 1.120-1.125 OAL. Average velocity was 1045 for 129.50 PF with the shadow 2, 1072 FPS @ 132 PF for the 8” MPX and 1125 FPS @ 139.5 PF for the 16” MPX.
Accuracy on the shadow 2 was less than 3” at 25 yards shooting with both hands while standing. It was more accurate on the MPX at less than 2” at 25 yards shooting while standing.
These are the loads I shoot in competition for my shadow 2. I don’t use it for the MPX so it won’t lead up the compensator. However, I load the same data for Precision Delta’s 124 Gr JHP for them which I also use in competition. Accuracy is a little bit better compared to the match winners.
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Yeah I guess [changes in bullet depthis] an obvious answer... I had thought about it, but then overlooked factoring it in. They don't make it easy on us because none of the bullet manufactures list their bullet lengths, the ones I've looked at anyway. But for building pressure in the casing it would be the variable, it's either further in or further out if the COL is the same.
• For same weight bullets, JHP are typically longer than FMJ's because of the hollowed out center. The missing weight shows is added on as extra bullet length.
• You need to spend more time in our Directory. There are a lot of resources there, including common Bullet Lengths.
;)