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GENERAL => Cajun Gun Works => Topic started by: briang2ad on March 15, 2021, 04:01:44 PM

Title: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: briang2ad on March 15, 2021, 04:01:44 PM
Today shot my Cajunized (by me) P01.  I've got all the parts for the Defensive package plus the CGW hammer.  The result was a stinging sensation from the hammer on my fat hand web.  I now have a welt after only 100 rounds or so. 

This surprises me because I only smooth off my PreB hammer and this keeps it from biting me.  The CGW hammer looks smooth enough. 

David will take care of me to switch it out to a CGW ROUND hammer - but has anyone else had this and do you have a pic of the round hammer to compare?


Anyone else switch it for this reason? Thanks. 
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Earl Keese on March 15, 2021, 07:16:56 PM
Man, you have more problems with CZ's than anybody on this forum. Nobody can call you a quitter, that's for sure.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: M1A4ME on March 15, 2021, 08:24:46 PM
Man, you have more problems with CZ's than anybody on this forum. Nobody can call you a quitter, that's for sure.

Earl, I just wrote something similar on the other thread the OP posted in about this issue.  But I didn't laugh out loud till I saw your post in this thread. 

Sorry OP, not laughing at you, just hoping you realized no one is picking on you when you see similar posts from two different people in two different threads.

Again, good luck with the new hammer.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on March 16, 2021, 05:03:49 AM
Never had any hammer bite from any modern pistol. I think it's the beaver tail digging in. 
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: dbarn on March 16, 2021, 09:45:28 AM
I've had this problem for quite a while and have tried several different hammers. They all gave me hammer bite. Firmly believe that the problem is with the aluminum frame downward sloped beavertail.

Those of us with fleshy hands between the thumb and forefinger and grip high, have the skin come over the rear of the beavertail and it's pinched during the rearward slide movement between the hammer and the beavertail. The harder and higher we grip, the more flesh comes over the rear.

One question you might ask CGW is completely grinding the cocking piece off of the hammer. Short of extending the beavertail, this may be a viable option. 
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Earl Keese on March 16, 2021, 10:10:39 AM
I've had a bobbed race hammer on my Rami for a year or so, works fine.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: briang2ad on March 16, 2021, 10:24:50 AM
When I look at the bobbed round hammer it looks like it is shaped differently.  Wish I could measure both.  I just don’t recall any of this on the omega version hence my belief in the hammer vice beavertail problem.  BTW no offense taken as I AM that guy with CZs, but I still lovem.  Too easy to shoot well!
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: M1A4ME on March 16, 2021, 01:59:51 PM
If you're running a decocker then you have no need for the spur/ring anway.  Not really.

My Tactical Sport has a spurless/ringless hammer on it and it's SAO.

Not sure if someone makes a spurless hammer for the standard frame pistols or whether a hammer for the Tactical Sport will fit the standard frame pistols.



Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on March 16, 2021, 04:26:28 PM
If you're running a decocker then you have no need for the spur/ring anway.  Not really.

My Tactical Sport has a spurless/ringless hammer on it and it's SAO.

Not sure if someone makes a spurless hammer for the standard frame pistols or whether a hammer for the Tactical Sport will fit the standard frame pistols.
Or one could "bob" the hammer the way we used to do with DA revolvers.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Earl Keese on March 16, 2021, 05:07:21 PM
Bobbed race hammer. . . and TS hammer is too wide for std 75's.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210316/a46998e633328f23b2988034d0a9d711.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on March 17, 2021, 05:15:42 AM
That's the way to go right there. Makes for a clean smooth look as well.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Steve Menegon on March 17, 2021, 06:48:16 AM
Bobbed race hammer. . . and TS hammer is too wide for std 75's.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210316/a46998e633328f23b2988034d0a9d711.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Thanks Earl. I needed a reason to change the spare stock hammer and install it in mine! Clean look indeed.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: M1A4ME on March 17, 2021, 07:58:08 AM
I bobbed the hammer on my 2&3/4" Speed Six a long, long time ago.  No issues.

But I've wondered about the smaller hammers on the CZs.  That upper part, where the ring/spur is removed is what strikes the firing pin/back of the slide.  The hammer should move a little faster when lightened (with the same hammer spring) and hit harder.  I've wondered about the effects of a small/lighter hammer than is hitting harder on the long term strength of the steel that is left.

How many rounds fired on the bobbed hammers for those that have gone that route?
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Earl Keese on March 17, 2021, 01:20:22 PM
I bobbed the hammer on my 2&3/4" Speed Six a long, long time ago.  No issues.

But I've wondered about the smaller hammers on the CZs.  That upper part, where the ring/spur is removed is what strikes the firing pin/back of the slide.  The hammer should move a little faster when lightened (with the same hammer spring) and hit harder.  I've wondered about the effects of a small/lighter hammer than is hitting harder on the long term strength of the steel that is left.

How many rounds fired on the bobbed hammers for those that have gone that route?
I don't have many rounds on mine since I bobbed it, just some for testing. The slide is out for optic milling. I liked the look of the CZUB hidden hammer, but didn't want to invest in machining it to work with DA/SA.
https://eshop.czub.cz/en/kohout-sa-hidden.html
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: sevt_chevelle on March 17, 2021, 05:28:29 PM
Kinda different.  What or why requires machine work for it to function in da/sa?
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Earl Keese on March 17, 2021, 09:39:01 PM
Kinda different.  What or why requires machine work for it to function in da/sa?
Hooks are different for de-cockers, and sa hammer doesn't have holes for the disconnector pin.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: briang2ad on March 18, 2021, 02:04:09 PM
You guys are getting my thoughts flowing....

So what if I bobbed all but some of the top and rounded off a spur.  Would be a same to refinish it, but maybe it would look decent and YES - it would take off weight.  Less mass juices up KE (1/2 m V^2) and you might run an even lighter mainspring with 100% ignition. 

Someone should photoshop this on a P01 or PCR with CGW race hammer. 
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Steve Menegon on March 18, 2021, 05:33:19 PM
It is rough, but you get the idea.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210318/bfddb257123200c9eda7715bd139c5ba.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Tok36 on March 18, 2021, 05:38:06 PM
^^Ill bet that i could catch a fish with that in a pinch.   :)
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Steve Menegon on March 18, 2021, 06:39:32 PM
 ;D Got a worm on that thing right now. Dropped it in the puddles outside.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on March 18, 2021, 06:39:56 PM
^^Ill bet that i could catch a fish with that in a pinch.   :)
Or shoot some trout in a stream.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Steve Menegon on March 18, 2021, 07:40:21 PM
Less fishy. Color pattern has possibilities.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210318/f8efe2f1027905c8fc385bd2690130fa.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: M1A4ME on March 19, 2021, 07:09:54 AM
My concern with that hammer would be breaking it sooner or later.

Notice how that factory "bobbed" hammer is thicker up the back (flat on the front, arched on the back). 

Don't know if that's for weight or strength (resistant to breaking).

Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Steve Menegon on March 19, 2021, 07:17:24 AM
My concern with that hammer would be breaking it sooner or later.

Notice how that factory "bobbed" hammer is thicker up the back (flat on the front, arched on the back). 

Don't know if that's for weight or strength (resistant to breaking).
I wondered the very same thing before I cut it. I thought the ring was added support as the contact point to firing pin is right at the base of the circle. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210319/2085bb05b324bd08fa76cbee67f0275d.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: briang2ad on March 19, 2021, 04:54:13 PM
Bobbing the CGW “square” hammer might actually look nice and leaving on some spur might look decent but the thinnest part is at the top where the spur is.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: dbarn on March 24, 2021, 08:42:11 PM
Got out my handy dandy dremel and now have a usable P-01.

I can now enjoy this pistol using my normal grip with no more worries from hammer bite. The hammer is a CGW Competition without of course the cocking piece. Should have done this a long time ago. For anyone on the fence, would highly recommend.

(https://i.imgur.com/T3ILIn2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Dtg7n6o.jpg)
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Tok36 on March 25, 2021, 01:12:40 AM
Neat, did you just cut, polish it and reblue it? Glad that it is working out, thank you for the pics.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Steve Menegon on March 25, 2021, 05:42:35 AM
Dbarn,

That looks good. How thick is the hammer now where it hits the firing pin?

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Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: dbarn on March 25, 2021, 06:18:04 AM
Dbarn,

That looks good. How thick is the hammer now where it hits the firing pin?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Steve, I've not measured, however the thickness is the same as it was before with only the cocking piece carefully ground down to the spine then lightly sanded. I can tell you that just like before I can set off most primers with an 11.5 hammer spring and all of them with a 13lb to include Winchester NATO.

Thoroughly enjoying being able to shoot this pistol with confidence and no worries whatsoever with hammer bite. The look has quickly grown on me as well.   
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: M1A4ME on March 25, 2021, 06:20:57 AM
I know a nice hammer improves the SA trigger pull. 

What does it do for the double action trigger pull.  I'm curious.  Does it make the trigger pull lighter?  Just smoother?
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: dbarn on March 25, 2021, 06:27:48 AM
Neat, did you just cut, polish it and reblue it? Glad that it is working out, thank you for the pics.

Yes sir used a diamond cutter then a grinding stone, and finally 400 to 1000 grit sand paper. Took it down only to the spine and used Brownell's Oxpho Blue to finish. Such a joy to grip as high as I do with the SP-01 with no pain. Surprisingly my groups have shrunk also. Go figure!
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: dbarn on March 25, 2021, 06:30:20 AM
I know a nice hammer improves the SA trigger pull. 

What does it do for the double action trigger pull.  I'm curious.  Does it make the trigger pull lighter?  Just smoother?

To me it seems smoother and lighter. No question it also makes the piece more of a joy to carry with something less obtrusive and one fewer item to snag.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Earl Keese on March 25, 2021, 02:36:41 PM
I know a nice hammer improves the SA trigger pull. 

What does it do for the double action trigger pull.  I'm curious.  Does it make the trigger pull lighter?  Just smoother?
Doesn't really affect the DA pull, it affects the break.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Steve Menegon on March 25, 2021, 06:22:41 PM
Dbarn,

That looks good. How thick is the hammer now where it hits the firing pin?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Steve, I've not measured, however the thickness is the same as it was before with only the cocking piece carefully ground down to the spine then lightly sanded. I can tell you that just like before I can set off most primers with an 11.5 hammer spring and all of them with a 13lb to include Winchester NATO.

Thoroughly enjoying being able to shoot this pistol with confidence and no worries whatsoever with hammer bite. The look has quickly grown on me as well.

I measured my SP-01 Cajun hammer and it is .165"  at the point where it hits the firing pin. The 75 Compact I cut the ring off measures .115". I would try the thinner one, but not in a carry piece. For comparison sake, the hammer on my Walther PPX is .175" thick at the point of impact with firing pin.

Glad it works for you Dbarn. I don't have an issue with grip such as you, but you got me thinking about copying your idea.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Steve Menegon on March 25, 2021, 06:40:24 PM
The stock PPX hammer, in case you were curious.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210325/31bfac4aa16430d0a66f8b630cf4b1e6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210325/f302e513e9658e2ae9977ec5cdcfa96b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210325/c51f3c55a24624cf8a54c27a8893cae8.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: dbarn on March 25, 2021, 08:36:19 PM
Very interesting pistol on what originally appeared to be striker fired but is actually a bobbed hammer design. No hammer bite possible here!

Thanks for the measurements on the CGW hammer and the PPX for comparison. Not sure which hammer Earl used above. I'm of the opinion that removing the cocking piece did not change the impact of the hammer on the firing pin that much. To the extent that I'm able to light off the same primers with the different hammer springs as before. Also wanted to mention that if a person still desires to manually cock the pistol, it's easily accomplished from the hammer safety notch or default de-cock position.

Very nearly put this pistol on consignment at a gun shop. I've been wanting to like this pistol for a very long time. Hopefully others will consider this route should they have this same nagging and painful problem. Best regards.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Earl Keese on March 25, 2021, 09:55:06 PM
I used a Cajun Race hammer for mine. I asked around and was told that the lighter hammer will actually move faster and hit harder, so no problem with primer ignition. Believe me, chopping a Cajun hammer was a tough decision but I'm happy with it. For me it was just to do something different and to make the pistol more comfortable for long rides while holstered. I'm glad some of you guys were able to solve your hammer bite issue by doing this. When I get this project finished up, I'll share some better pics.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: dbarn on April 04, 2021, 10:38:13 AM
Here's a link to a thread where the same solution was offered a few years back. Interesting that CGW stated that the different hammers may not offer much relief and refused to cut down a hammer for an individual. Trying to think of any negatives to cutting down a hammer for someone experiencing hammer bite in an aluminum compact and just can't come up with any.

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=93231.0
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: Fuzzy Sights on April 04, 2021, 12:27:11 PM
Dbarn,

Loss of mass on the hammer if combined with a light hammer spring will affect reliability.  As long as the hammer spring remains constant, usually there is no issue.  Had a problem with a SIG back in the day and I changed both at one time.  Then spent months trying to figure out my issue.  Once I reinstalled the original spring everything was fine and was able to drop it a couple of lbs., but not 5, which is what I originally did.

JW
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: dbarn on April 04, 2021, 02:57:54 PM
Dbarn,

Loss of mass on the hammer if combined with a light hammer spring will affect reliability.  As long as the hammer spring remains constant, usually there is no issue.  Had a problem with a SIG back in the day and I changed both at one time.  Then spent months trying to figure out my issue.  Once I reinstalled the original spring everything was fine and was able to drop it a couple of lbs., but not 5, which is what I originally did.

JW

Yes, I have the CGW Pro Package and after removing the cocking piece tried both the 11.5 and 13lb hammer spring. The 11.5 still lit off Federal , Winchester, and CCI but had issues with Winchester NATO. The 13lb lit off Winchester NATO as well. However this is exactly what it did before modifying the hammer.
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: briang2ad on April 15, 2021, 01:22:30 PM
Quote
Loss of mass on the hammer if combined with a light hammer spring will affect reliability.   

Yes, and it may just INCREASE reliability, hence some folks offering skeletonized hammers (like for a SIG).  Decreased mass also means increased velocity given the same hammer spring.  This increases kinetic energy because of the V^2 term.  Of course you can rob the mass enough to render your project a failure.  It would be interesting to see this  done as a study. 
Title: Re: CGW Hammer bite
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on April 15, 2021, 04:15:13 PM
Quote
Loss of mass on the hammer if combined with a light hammer spring will affect reliability.   

Yes, and it may just INCREASE reliability, hence some folks offering skeletonized hammers (like for a SIG).  Decreased mass also means increased velocity given the same hammer spring.  This increases kinetic energy because of the V^2 term.  Of course you can rob the mass enough to render your project a failure.  It would be interesting to see this  done as a study.
Depends on the gun and the application. They've been doing it on 1911's for decades now. Problem is guys who know nothing about what they're doing swapping parts and getting poor results. You have to think out the process not just grind metal away and throw light springs at the gun. Work incrementally to find what works and what doesn't.