The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ SP-01 and variants => Topic started by: czshadowman on May 18, 2021, 11:32:58 PM
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New Shadow 2 owner and I'm having some extraction problems. I have tried 3 different types of 115 grain factory ammo (CCI blazer, federal, and geco). All 3 have the issue with either of my 3 magazines. What happens is the casing is not pulled out of the barrel all the way and the next round is partially stripped from the magazine jamming up the pistol. I have to push the magazine release, forcibly strip the magazine out, and then the casing either falls out or I have to rack the slide.
I did clean and lube everything properly before taking it to the range both times. 150 rounds each trip, so 300 total through it so far. Out of those 300 rounds, it's failed to extract at least 10 times now. Gun is 100% stock.
The picture is not mine, but my extraction issue looks exactly like what is shown in the top picture linked below.
Any thoughts on what the problem may be? Bad extractor or extractor spring?
https://m.imgur.com/a/S3BsU (https://m.imgur.com/a/S3BsU)
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Nice double feed malfunction... 8)
Anyway, first I will check extractor. The best is to strip the slide, remove barrel and guide rod then slide the bullet into breech face. It should stay there, kept by extractor, even if you shake the slide really hard.
I'll also checked the chamber with plunk test, just to see if the bullet easily falls down with gravity once you turn muzzle up.
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strip the slide.
remove extractor, extractor pin and spring.
remove gunk, clean everything and DO NOT LUBE extractor or area around.
leave it dry and check for any unusual wear and tear.
reassemble.
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If the extractor claw looks good but holds an unfired round firmly, you will probably need a heavier extractor spring. Recently, I had a Canik CZ clone and a CZ75b that had that same problem. After trying a new factory extractor spring in each one, the problem was still happening, but at a reduced rate. A stronger extractor spring solved the problem in each handgun. Removing the extractor and cleaning the extractor channel did not help my two guns, only a stronger spring did.
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Do you guys have a recommendation on where I can get a new factory extractor and spring and stronger spring? Even if this isn't the answer, I'd like to have the extra parts on hand anyway. I will be stripping the slide and doing the recommended tests after work.
New to CZ firearms so don't have a good source for parts like what I'm used to. (Glock, Sig and Walther)
Thanks.
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So just did the first 2 tests recommended by jurek. slide bullet into breach face under extractor and it held the bullet no matter how hard I shook it. Then I did the plunk test. Bullet dropped into chamber and was able to sprin freely in the chamber. Slight tilt caused bullet to fall out. So passed those tests with flying colors. Later tonight I'll remove, inspect, clean, and reinstall extractor.
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So just did the first 2 tests recommended by jurek. slide bullet into breech face under extractor and it held the bullet no matter how hard I shook it. Then I did the plunk test. Bullet dropped into chamber and was able to sprin freely in the chamber. Slight tilt caused bullet to fall out. So passed those tests with flying colors. Later tonight I'll remove, inspect, clean, and reinstall extractor.
Interesting results.... :o
I was hoping it would fail at least on one...
Later tonight I'll remove, inspect, clean, and reinstall extractor.
That seems to be a good idea.
Regarding new parts... I've been using https://cajungunworks.com/ as my primary source and to be honest never found reason to buy somewhere else.
However if you like you can use these:
https://czcustom.com/
https://shop.cz-usa.com/
https://www.cz-parts.com/
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Is the extractor claw damaged? Have you dropped the slide (into battery) on an already chambered round?
I'd wonder if the extractor itself is out of spec/chipped and that is why it is slipping off the case rim? Might warrant a trip to CZ for warranty, or maybe they will send you another under warranty? I'd call them at minimum and ask if they would be willing to send a replacement out. It's not too difficult to replace. I'm sure they will correct it under warranty regardless. They have been super helpful when I call them and have sent parts to me before under warranty.
Cheers,
Toby
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Well got the extractor removed. Didn't appear to be damaged in any way, but had a lot of gunk built up on it for only having fired 300 rounds. Cleaned it, the spring, and the extractor channel and reinstalled it dry. Will take it to the range this weekend and if I have further issues, will be calling CZ.
@Tdogg, no never dropped the slide, gun was new and had this issue starting with the 8th round ever fired through it.
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I'd wonder if the extractor itself is out of spec/chipped and that is why it is slipping off the case rim?
That's why we insert round directly on the breech face, under the extractor. If the round was kept there - extractor claw and spring was OK.
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Wanted to close the loop on this one, but the issue has gone away. Only things done were removing, cleaning and reinstalling the extractor. Also loaded all 3 magazines fully and let them sit 4 days. Ran through all 3 magazines multiple times yesterday and not a single issue.
My guess is that removing and cleaning the extractor is what fixed it. The amount of gunk on that thing was crazy for only having 300 rounds through it.
Thanks again everyone, and I have ordered a few parts to keep handy.
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timmy75 won the great price ;)
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Thank you for the follow up czshadowman, we all learn from this stuff.
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timmy75 won the great price ;)
8)
I've made an experiment with my S2. Lubed the extractor intentionally. 700 rounds is the best I can do without FTE, N320 powder.
Without lubing it can do 2000 rds easily.
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Timmy,
When you say don't lube it, you leave it completely dry? How about the spring? That's interesting because I had two failures to feed at my last match that I thought were nose dives but could very well could have been do to a gunky extractor on the breach.
I was on the clock and didn't have time to inspect what was going on. I normally just lube the spring but I'm sure some of that lube makes it down the extractor channel.
Cheers,
Toby
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Mine had what looked to be more of the factory grease in there than oil. So cleaned the extractor, spring and channel 100% free of all the gunk and left everything dry. Now I'm having 0 failures to extract.
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Springs don't need any lubrication to function properly. Most springs has loose fit in their channels, so friction is not a problem, so again - no lubrication needed.
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Wanted to thank you for this thread. I used your input to hopefully solve the extraction problem with my Shadow 2. After removing the extractor twice for cleaning I installed the 40 S&W spring with about 1 coil trimmed off. The gun just ran a varied group of ammo with only one extraction problem. It was early on with Winchester white box 115gr. If it acts up in the future I'll give a post.
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Springs don't need any lubrication to function properly. Most springs has loose fit in their channels, so friction is not a problem, so again - no lubrication needed.
Well maybe so but they do need corrosion protection. Also, you should try lubing the main spring, it does make the da trigger pull smoother in a cz.
Cheers,
Toby
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Well maybe so but they do need corrosion protection. Also, you should try lubing the main spring, it does make the da trigger pull smoother in a cz.
Cheers,
Toby
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Yes of course, every metal part cleaned with solvent need protection... but again, "no need for lubrication to function properly".
My point was that spring shouldn't be wet from lube.
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Going to keep this thread active.
Shadow is approximately 120 days old. When i first took the gun to the range I used 124gr (some 125gr) and 147gr ammunition.These were my reloads. Halfway through took 115gr factory ammo with me (winchester white box, Blazer, Sig). With the lighter grain ammo failure to extract. Case halfway out of chamber stacked on top of next round, Pull the mag out literally and remove case. This could happen once per mag or twice. Number of rounds in mag doesn't not matter. It happens with all three mags.
So with the help of this forum and Enos I started to slef diagnose (instead of sending gun in for repair}
First the extractor has been out of the gun three times for cleaning. The first time was gummed up with some sort of factory grease. Extractor itself looks fine.
Second I have put the Extra Strength extractor spring. Had to clip a coil off for fitment.
Third I ordered Cajun Gunworks Spring pack (recoil). I have run each spring to the same results.
Mind you this is with factory ammo. So I started measuring COL of factory. They are long. 1.15-1.17. My reloads are in the 1.13 range if not shorter. Yesterday I took 200 of my reloads to the range
115gr Berry's HBRN TP
Winchester case
CCI SPP
4.5 grains of Winchester 231 (1108 fps average through chronograph)
Cases were spotless, Roll Sized with clean primer pockets
They ran flawless.
I loaded WWB 115gr right behind it and the gun jammed repeatedly. Had all the recoil springs laid out . Changed through the lighter ones. Went back to stock. No go.
I look at the extraction failure and i see a round stuck underneath the case to be extracted. The mag is stiff to drop. It has to be dragged out. The slide and extracted case cannot drag accros the round to be loaded. The recoil springs have been run from lightest to heaviest.
Is it time to send it back to CZ.
This is only with lighter grain projectiles. 124 and 147 ran a omplete mag almost 100% of the time.
I suspected the mags at first but since it happens with all three. Tune the mags? Polish the bolt?
I have a spare slide stop, extractor, extractor spring and something I probably can't remember. These parts were purchased after buying the gun as wearable parts not for this problem.
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It's time to send it back. I would have guessed extractor spring since the claw looked good. I had two guns with exactly the same malfunction, and each one needed a stronger extractor spring to solve the problem. However, each gun had a few thousand rounds through them before the problem started.
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This is probably at 1000 rounds
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So it runs without any problems with “all” of your reloads but jams on factory loads such as the WWB 115 Gr. Did I get that right?
If so, the problems would be the factory WWB ammo and not your gun. Did you do a plunk test on the WWB 125? What was the result?
Are the 124 and 147 Gr ammo factory or reloads?
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Well here we go. All "factory ammo " plunk tests. It doesn't hit the lands. The leade seems fine. It spins. That's why I'm here. It wasn't perfect on 124 and 147. It was better. The problem is persistant with 115gr Sig, WWB,blazer, and fiochi. I started swapping recoil springs this last round. I'm going to replace the extractor. If that doesn't work I'm going to send it to CZ.
I can imagine trying to explain it. I think all the ammo when the col is around 1.15 or above crowds the bolt.
I understand some people have no problems with the Shadow2, but even a few on here do.
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The only problem I’ve had with my pair of Shadow 2’s is one of them about 14 months in had extractor issues at a match. Replaced the extractor spring and the problem went away. So extractor spring is one of the things I replace yearly when I also replace the TRS.
But for it to do it with only 1K rnds in, that seems like there might be something else going on.
FWIW, I load my ammo to 1.125” using 125 or 135 gr coated bullets. In some of my other 9mm I can get away with 1.140” before the ogive comes into contact with the rifling.
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Factory ogive will plunk at longer col. Speer TMJ 3993 will plunk @ 1.16
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Factory ogive will plunk at longer col. Speer TMJ 3993 will plunk @ 1.16
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It all depends on the ogive profile of the bullet you are using. Saying “factory” covers a pretty large area. Have no doubt Speer TMJ can be loaded longer since it has a narrow ogive.
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The bullets that were fired 115gr Winchester white boxed plunked. Along with 115gr sig elite. The blazer 115gr plunked also. The case would not extract over the next round in magazine. I do not have a picture of the jam. The slide cannot load the next round because the case is left above the next round as the extractor loses it.
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The fault lies the the firearm. My P-09 will fire anything. Along with the 4other 9mm handguns I own. Extraction is not a common problem with the S2, but it seems a few members( including me) are having a problem. Over on Enos there is a thread that suggests a larger spring from a 40 cal.
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I think I saw a thread hear that had a picture of the slide being taped off and the underside of the slide (bolt) being polished. Along with a large bevel of the leading edge.
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. Over on Enos there is a thread that suggests a larger spring from a 40 cal.
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Yep, the extractor spring from a .40 CZ is stronger. That’s why some people recommend it. But it may require that you clip a coil in order to get the extractor back installed. Personally I just replace the spring with one from CGW and treat it as a consumable part on the gun.
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I have two from cgw waiting in the wings with a new extractor.
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This is the problem.
New extractor
New extractor spring
New pin
Stock recoil spring
Case was not loose in chamber after slide locked back. Pulled out with finger nail. Winchester white box 115gr FMJ.
Reset mag and finished the mag. This occured with next mag also.
Changed spring to grey 14# from CGW spring pack. That helped. Also tried Sig elite 115gr. Completed two mags no problem. Third mag about the fifth round. Ran the gun with my reloads in same config 124 Speer TMJ. COL 1.135 5.3 grains of Silhouette. Ran three mags no malfunction.
I'm going to try one more thing. I'm going to take WWB rounds and put through the Lee factory crimp die. No crimp just carbide ring. Then I'm going run a couple hundred rounds and see what I get.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210916/af9f5654397ca035e4be756b12da909d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210916/b82d33282ba1ef743d9fe96a40e69d23.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210916/a278dbabd10733f57a3aa5dba9c6e636.jpg)
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Duplicated pic(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210916/0e0836cdc28a7e74889ea82b94af8922.jpg)
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Warranty request made.
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CZ has sent an RMA. Gun will be shipped today.
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Gun repaired. Polished breach face and replaced extractor spring. Has not shipped because they are doing internal inventory.
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Went to range with "repaired gun". First mag 115gr WWB ran perfect. Second mag 8th round failure to extract. Cleared gun, insert same mag second to the last round same. Set that mag aside. Ran the other two mags perfectly. Took the mag that was set aside (marked also) and reloaded it. the gun ran the ammo with no failure. Finished 100 round box with suspect mag. Next loaded two different reloads. 124gr and 147 gr TMJ Speer with col at 1.15 for both projectiles. Two mags of each. Gun had no issues with either.
So approximately 170 rounds with two failures early. Now I will be counting (subconsciously) rounds to see what the rate of failure is. I think its best to run a group through the gun and see if its fixed. The polishing is basically what I see on some forums. The "breech" to me is the face of the slide. The place they polished I call the bolt. They also beveled the edge again. I'll post pictures later.
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Thanks for the update. I know your heart sank when that round failed to extract.
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Just kinda finicky. I have a P-09 out for slide milling now. Hopefully it won't be as particular.
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Thank you for the updates. I never have encountered a failure to extract in my CZs, so i lack trouble shooting experience on the subject.
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I hadn't either. Considering it's the first CZ I've owned.
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Back at range today. Loaded one mag with cci/speer 115gr. Mag ran fine. Tried the two other with the same result. Went to work loading mags as fast as I could. Ran through approximately 200 rounds. So a good 250 rounds. Not one failure. Will clean the gun in am and make another day this week. Ran Federal, CCI/Speer and Blazer 115gr. Also ran some of my 124gr and 147gr reloads. Stock recoil spring with factory extractor spring. Ejection pattern 5 to 6 feet. All good.
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Nice. Glad to hear CZ got you sorted out. Enjoy!
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Looks like (to me) the finish on the breach, not the breach face was completely removed about two-thirds back. and the front edge received a bit more bevel. Looks like a lot of polishing goes on with these pistols. Don't get me wrong every gun community has their particular form of massage.
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Considering the live round needs to slide up into the breach face and under the extractor hook in order to feed right, that makes sense.
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Well your right. Still a lot of polishing on a gun of that expense. Not to knock CZ. I guess Orange receives more attention.
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Doubt it. You just got one that needed some TLC. I have two Black/Blue models, both of them worked fine out of the box.
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well just my luck then
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Hello!
I have 3 Shadow 2s.
The problem is with one pistol (other 2 are working flawlessly), the fired case gets left in the chamber, and the next round trying to feed, jamming the case in. (and mag too)
Pistol is out of warranty. 3+ years old. maybe 50k rds fired.
Things I've tried:
-Factory ammo, S&B, PPU, Geco...
-125-130-135 PF reloads
-Stock pistol, with stock springs
-pistol with CGW and CZUB aftermarket parts
-Dozen of recoil springs in endless combinations
-Dry extractor, wet extractor
-Dirty gun, clean gun
-stronger extractor spring
-stronger extractor spring with one coil cut off
-new non-used extractor
-took extractors+springs from working pistols
-tried new magazines, magazines from working pistols, new magazine springs...
It is always the same, from the first day I bought it, FTE jam happens in around 1/100-1/150-1/200 rounds fired.
Anything left I can do except melt it in scrap iron?
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Swap a barrel to one of your other pistols and see if it follows. My problem has become more intermittent with the OG barrel. I have since picked up a barrel or two.
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With the slide off and barrel removed, will the extractor hold a spent 9mm case against the breech face? Does it have any tension? Does the case wobble up and down at all?
Any burrs in the extractor claw channel? Without the extractor installed, does it slide into place easily?
The barrel swap idea is a quick and easy to test to perform as well.
Cheers,
Toby
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I had the same issue with my Shadow 2. I sent it back to the distributor who replaced the extractor spring, but it still happened. I wasn't convinced that it was strong enough, so I replaced it with a stronger one. I've had 0 problems over the next 2000 rounds. HTH.
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I had the same problem with my s2 , cleaned the extractor really well and removed the buffer on the guide rod and hasent happened since