The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Scorpion EVO => Topic started by: Northern on June 08, 2021, 06:06:19 PM
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Who all is planning to form 1 their scorpion soon, in light of the proposed rule change on braces?
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Shall not be infringed
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IF I owned one (which I don't), I wouldn't plan on doing a thing until it is official. This will most certainly be challenged, and I hope vigorously.
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It would not be wise to turn gun owners, especially veterans, even more especially disabled veterans into felons overnight.
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Personally I don’t believe the rule will reach the finish line as written due to pressure that ATF will face from members of Congress in the coming months, but I can say that if it does pass, challenges to the rule will not likely succeed. It doesn’t actually remove the right to have any firearm; it simply establishes rules under which certain firearms would be classified to a tax status; and it’s well established that the ATF can tax short barreled rifles. I hate it as much as any of us but the fact that we don’t like it doesn’t disallow it, legally.
My question is, among people who actually own a scorpion pistol, who plans to do form 1 anytime soon? I know I’ll be working through the form this week. It’s something I wanted to do anyhow, so I can install a stock, but this has accelerated the plan.
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It would not be wise to turn gun owners, especially veterans, even more especially disabled veterans into felons overnight.
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Totally agree, but there is a more general discussion on the rule itself in another section of the forum. My question is who among scorpion owners is
Planning to file form 1 now?
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How would the ATF even know who owns one? My guess is that even if the rule is in effect, it would mostly impact new purchases.
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I already have a double stamp Scorpion, one for the CZ factory stock and second for an integral suppressor from Innovative Arms, plus a heat shield, a combo which I really like. Hate the way most braces look.
If Biden’s sycophants get their way and braces are ruled illegal, there could potentially be hundreds of thousands of SBR applications. So expect to get your stamp from ATF in about 10 or 20 years.
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It will be several months before the proposed rule becomes law, if that happens at all. So there is time before the flood.
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Already done, Form 1 took very little time. Put a HK MP5K stock on it, very table and feels better than a brace.
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Yes, you can get approved Form 1 back in as little as 3 weeks by eFile. If you plan to do SBR, do it now. Don’t wait. If braces are outlawed, ATF will be backed up for xx years. And that is the gun haters plan.
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I will ask a dumb question. I am new to this world. (Not CZ though. I purchased a CZ 75 when it they first became available and I love it.) Can a fella get the paperwork squared away, not configure his Scorpion thusly and go about his business as usual? Sort of have the SBR in his back pocket if needed?
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I believe that you can have approved SBR paperwork and don’t have to engrave it or put on the factory stock until a later date of your choosing. I am not aware of any due dates for engraving. If somebody has a contrary information, with references, please correct me
I would however not put on a full stock until after the gun is engraved, even if you have SBR papers in hand. You would be in a technical violation.
But what crazy prosecutor would come after you for that, these days when mobs of people set fires to businesses, cause millions of dollars of damages, and are not prosecuted? It would have to be some political witch hunt.
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It would not be wise to turn gun owners, especially veterans, even more especially disabled veterans into felons overnight.
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Absolutely true! Just crazy
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Considering it. But also so many MK18s in-line :).
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Well, I filed. The website is like a time machine to the year 1999, complete with glitches and seemingly unresolvable errors in the forms. Sigh.
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I am - but that has always been the plan once I moved to a free state. Where on the gun are people engraving?
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Until they actually make this policy, the only real reasons to SBR are that you want to for bleeps and giggles, or you want to shoot it in PCC division.
Even if they do pass it, the worksheet they've spun up makes it look like there are a LOT of variables, which I imagine will generate some evolution in the brace market if/once the dust settles.
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I do want to be able to shoot it in PCC so it was always the plan to SBR it; this just fast tracked my plans because I’ve heard that individual applications are down to just 3-4 weeks, whereas if the rule materializes, presumably there will be so many applications that I envision the already slow system to crawl to a near stop.
But besides that, I disagree that it’s just for “bleeps and giggles.” I’d like to put a Zhukov stock on mine because it will make it nicer to shoot.
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I sent my form 1 in on Jan 12th, the background check is stuck in FBI limbo, I walk around TSA security so there is no background check I can't pass.
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I don’t understand how it’s different than a NICS check, and those typically take about 5 minutes.
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It’s not just a background check, you also have to mail in your fingerprint cards. And then FBI has to process them!
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The correct answer is: why should I and who is going to make me?
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I am - but that has always been the plan once I moved to a free state. Where on the gun are people engraving?
This seems to be the most popular spot (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160511/52011b71892265120e42abab4b1dbbf1.jpg), followed by here (https://i.imgur.com/mxnISFu.png). Personally, I'm going to do mine here (https://i.imgur.com/vlSVx3l.jpg).
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The correct answer is: why should I and who is going to make me?
All it takes is one law enforcement officer trying to advance his career, in this antigun climate.
After we shot machine guns in our popular pit in the national forest about 10 years ago, on our way out we were greeted by a road block, a military suited forest Ranger and two sheriff deputy backup, both cars flashing lights. We showed them Form 4s and were quickly on our way. Sheriff’s deputies were smiling and looked embarrassed. Picture yourself in that situation with unregistered SBRs. The combat ready Ranger would have a field day, another arrest, closer to promotion. Interestingly, he knew all about Form 4s, examined them closely, and told us he has arrested people with illegal machine guns at this location in the past.
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I live in a tri-state hub kinda area where a few miles into either direction lands me into other states fast. So that puts a wet blanket on a dedicated car gun being a SBR right there. Then my health sucks. So my kid won't be able to hawk the wares I bequeath to her anytime soon if she So chooses when I pass in the next few years. Theyre a pain in the butt to sell. So I have mine braced for impact so to speak. The simple fact the ATF etc came out and started this convo on braces a few months back proves thier total uselessness. They basically admitted they sat around and did nuttin for ages while SBR's was being sold in the wide open. Now they wanna play catch up. And if they get thier way if other bills too.. it won't just be SBR stamps. They'd like to add all "high cap" magazines to be individually taxed too the same way. As stated above if people comply it will be inundated with requests and take 20 years to be fully compliant. Not to mention if each firearm ya own has let's say 10 mags.. that's 2k in taxes alone on mags. Another 200 for sbr. So I'm leaving mine braced till yeah there's no other option. And even then if I'm forced to SBR some.. they can still use same brace afterwards. I think. Once ya stamp it I think ya can run whatever stock ya want at that point. Don't quote me. I'm no expert. Takes a rocket scientist to keep track of all the stuff. But if it gets to be a thing that must be done they should do an amnesty imo and offer free access to SBR the current ones in circulation. Since they sat by and idly watched as the situation occurred to begin with
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Your tristate issue is easily solved by obtaining out of state travel permits to all 3 states for 1 full year, free, renew again in a year.
Some of the blame should also go to companies who promoted braces and people who eagerly bought them, even if not “disabled” in any way. Did they really think ATF would not notice or do something? I always thought they are naive.
I don’t see licensing (or banning) of mags as being likely or realistic. Biden would love to do it, but doesn’t have support in Congress. I am sure anti gunners would also love to increase the stamp fee from $200 to $2,000 or $20,000 or some other crazy amount.
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True. But the issue of re selling anything you stamp is still a major pain. Not even sure how I'd convince a private party to buy a stamp gun from me. They'd have to agree to pay x amount. Then wait for paperwork to clear before even being able to take possession from what I understand. So I'd feel like I'd be limited to sell it to gunstores only basically and take a huge hit on price. Then all my private info will be engraved on it also. I've wondered also what happens if a SBR changes hands multiple times. Do all who own it at some point have to engrave it? This aspect tho won't bug me much cause I'll he gone by then when comes time to sell. Anyways some things I've wondered that many folks never discuss about SBR world that I've wondered about and decided to just avoid it. And as far as many of the brace manufacturers. Most had approval letters they sent In and was told it was all good. But either way if they didn't. It still shows the ATF was useless as they sold millions in front of God and everyone. If it was an issue like they're making it seem to be you'd think they'd have acted on it immediately after being made aware of it all. I only own two guns subject to this anyways. But still yeah erks me cause one I made specifically for car use and have a good bit wrapped up in it so far and really don't wanna do the SBR route for dam sure. Plus it puts ya name on a list of owning one. And we all know what lists lead to. So I think many like me will be hard pressed on this matter
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https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/removing-an-sbr-sbs-from-the-nfrtr-and-then-reregistering-the-sbr-sbs-process
I don’t know if this is accurate or up to date. Essentially you remove it from the registry, remove the component that caused it to require registry as an SBR, then sell it simply as a used Scorpion pistol. The new buyer can then re-register it and re-engrave, or simply use it as is as a pistol. Again, can’t speak to the accuracy of this link but it seems plausible to me.
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Ok I'll check it soon thx. Also heard they can't engrave plastic areas. Meant to ask that aslo
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Ok I'll check it soon thx. Also heard they can't engrave plastic areas. Meant to ask that aslo
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I had mine engraved above and below the serial number with a laser, turned out perfect
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Yeah think it's not a problem for scorpions. Was wanting to know for another toy I made. It's a ruger 57 in a PDW chasis. And basically the entire gun is plastic now. Only metal showing is the little window ya can see the FCU and where they serialized it with the numbers. Anyways under the hood of the gun there's still a slide there that's metal. Maybe they can engrave that? I'll show it to ya. Would be nice if you could instead engrave the stock of an SBR instead. And so long as it stays on the gun it will be legal. And when ya go to sell it simply destroy the stock or transfer it too. Anyways yeah was wondering cause this is the car gun I spoke of.. it's called a MP-57. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210613/fa165ef401975816fc6ce04944d2b56c.jpg)
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Now I'm seeing new proposed rules I think this will deffo be SBR if it passes. So I'm thinking of how to do it on this. As far as my scorpion I'll leave it disassembled and not too worried about it. When the day comes to where I bust it out and have to use it.. the legalities of doing so will be the last thing on my mind then lol. But this is way smaller and easier to use in cars etc and packs better ballistics etc. So yeah only worried about this one so far if and when rules change. Wondering where I'd have to engrave it
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Only reason I bought one was to SBR it. Submitted the eForm for it and my 9mm silencer the same day. Took a grand total of 17 days to get my stamps.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/ROCK-COLLECTION/n-ZLkHDp/CLASS-3/i-tjpLfb6/0/1690e182/X2/KFP_3704_1-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/ROCK-COLLECTION/n-ZLkHDp/CLASS-3/i-k2DR3mv/0/5d23ef7c/XL/CZ%20Quiet-XL.jpg)
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Very nice. If and when I do mine.. I'll do it like that. All short as possible. I like the pdw stock also. Mines the early model tho and will take some grinding to remove the web hole thingy on reciever to use a pdw slide stock. Had the scorp on the back burner tho since the 57 build. Wished CZ would make an entry into 57. Would be a top seller. Little pdw style lightweight rascal. I'd buy that in a heartbeat. But as for now I just have minimal upgrades on mine. Been too busy gathering stuff in more calibers and getting ammo. Figured I could fall back and tweak things later. And if I need a can when SHTF there will be plenty to makeshift make those lol. So also been dragging feet on getting that took care of. I did however recently pause gun buys to get a SIG echo in layaway. Soon I'll have it. Will be a neat addition to the sight options I have now. Bit this has a little feature not many realize. It can shoot around corners and barriers etc since it has a TV screen basically to look at with a red dot. Gonna be fun to play with. Then yeah if laws go cooky I'll have to yeah start stamping stuff. And like you I'll likely get a can too while at it. Seen a new mono core that has sheilds in it so it never freezes up with gunk. Armor specialties makes it. Really neat idea they did. May check them out. Or thinking maybe a bushwhacker 46. But like the looks of an osprey too tho. Too many choices. May just have to buy them all lol
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Very nice. If and when I do mine.. I'll do it like that. All short as possible. I like the pdw stock also. Mines the early model tho and will take some grinding to remove the web hole thingy on reciever to use a pdw slide stock. Had the scorp on the back burner tho since the 57 build. Wished CZ would make an entry into 57. Would be a top seller. Little pdw style lightweight rascal. I'd buy that in a heartbeat. But as for now I just have minimal upgrades on mine. Been too busy gathering stuff in more calibers and getting ammo. Figured I could fall back and tweak things later. And if I need a can when SHTF there will be plenty to makeshift make those lol. So also been dragging feet on getting that took care of. I did however recently pause gun buys to get a SIG echo in layaway. Soon I'll have it. Will be a neat addition to the sight options I have now. Bit this has a little feature not many realize. It can shoot around corners and barriers etc since it has a TV screen basically to look at with a red dot. Gonna be fun to play with. Then yeah if laws go cooky I'll have to yeah start stamping stuff. And like you I'll likely get a can too while at it. Seen a new mono core that has sheilds in it so it never freezes up with gunk. Armor specialties makes it. Really neat idea they did. May check them out. Or thinking maybe a bushwhacker 46. But like the looks of an osprey too tho. Too many choices. May just have to buy them all lol
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After I bought my CZ, I got bit ny the AK bug. I had one...got 4 now.
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I had a SAIGA 308 ages ago. It was a beast. But dam bro it was heavy lol. And back then no one wanted them and took a while just to sell it. Worth a good bit now. I'm not an ak guy. Not opposed to owning one either tho. They're great. But I got bit by the AR bug later. And own a 350 legend.. 556.. 300 aac.. all in AR. and a 308 sig AR 10 style 706i. And that sig is way better than the SAIGA was. But.. Haven't ran it much yet. It may turn out to be sheet lol. So i can't say which is better till I run it hard for a while. But rifles kinda bore me when shooting for fun. So I buy pistols mostly and enjoy the challenge they present. I plan to clear out more property soon to be able to shoot long ranges. And then I'll bust out the big boys and have fun with them too. Till then they kinda just sit for now
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Please make sure to comment on the proposed ATF pistol brace changes. We need all the help we can get.
https://www.sb-tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ATF-Proposed-Rule-Stabilizing-Braces.pdf (https://www.sb-tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ATF-Proposed-Rule-Stabilizing-Braces.pdf)
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/06/10/2021-12176/factoring-criteria-for-firearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/06/10/2021-12176/factoring-criteria-for-firearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces)
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Please make sure to comment on the proposed ATF pistol brace changes. We need all the help we can get.
https://www.sb-tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ATF-Proposed-Rule-Stabilizing-Braces.pdf (https://www.sb-tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ATF-Proposed-Rule-Stabilizing-Braces.pdf)
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/06/10/2021-12176/factoring-criteria-for-firearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/06/10/2021-12176/factoring-criteria-for-firearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces)
One suggestion during the last cycle of this foolishness was to attach high resolution images of the Constitution and Bill of Rights (https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/downloads) to your submissions, as there is speculation that the total amount of data is what will be observed rather than actual review of individual comments.
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If ya do so. Maybe do it twice. One with. One without. Heard they're tossing out all they can for any reasons. Ya have to attach the case number thingy etc also to make sure it don't get overlooked also. But sounds like a good idea maybe
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I'd also like to see more states follow suit and stand up and say that no matter what they say we're keeping the laws as is. Better yet take Texas as an example and take steps to nullify some of the dumb ones already on the books. I'd like to see politicians take notice and take steps like these. I'm sure the places that have.. have had overwhelming support from the populations they represent. Wish like hell my state would hurry up and jump on board. Cause no matter what feds say or do. They rely heavily on self policing and the states to enforce the dumb rules. Kinda off topic but yeah hope local leaders see it and start a trend
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(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2F14uqp2.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
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I don’t have a CZ, but another “pistol”. If push comes to shove, and the government was offering what I paid, I would sell it back and purchase a rifle. Or, maybe I would purchase a longer barrel and convert it, if allowed. I am not sure that I would pay the $200, out of principle.
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Yeah. When looking at the new forms point system. Its all so opinion based it's literally craziness that I can't see being taken seriously and taught to any agent in such a way where if they all analyzed the same gun separately they'd all return and find the same scores. I bet money they're scores would vary wildly even after being instructed on how to score things. Would be interesting to see any two people just try it for giggles
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But as long as the scores are all four and above — which it seems set up to do — it doesn’t make a difference. The worksheet is designed to result in SBR determination for nearly any braced pistol.
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Yeah. It's nuts. Id love to see some YouTube content creator somehow find two ex or current ATF agents. Then let them examine the identical same pistol with a brace etc. Then have them both privately rate it in a separate room. Then have them come out and compare notes. I'm sure that even after schooling thier results will vary wildly. But I'm hoping it's so silly it don't pan out. They got a bulge when they took bumpstocks. The community didn't care much and considered it low hanging fruit per say to appease the system. And let it go too easy. I didn't like how it was done either with a stroke of a pen. It set a bad legal precedent. But if I recall correctly there was only some laughable number of them turned in. Like 50 or something like that I heard. So even those are floating around still. But I hope states step in and say enough is enough and provide some shelter vs the over reaching stuff happening. And I've not heard anyone yet discuss how this could affect the import of pistols either yet. With clarification done now as far as even the types of sights that can be attached and considered a pistol pushed more.. it makes me wonder if it will affect the sales of like MP5's etc seeing how they have rifle like sights.. thier weights etc. Anyone know if there will be any affects downhill with rulings like this in those aspects later down the road? I've only been in this realm of things for over a year now and it's a mess to wrap ya head around. But even I can see this can have further repercussions down the road other than what's right in front of us. Any thoughts on that yet from anyone?
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But now that my mind is wondering.. future legal loopholes lol. Maybe this can become a thing? Drop the brace altogether. Then on the arm bar.. u instead add another 1913 slot. And that slot then holds your magazine vertically via a clip attachment. You now then have yaself the first folding/and or sliding adjustment magazine holder!.. you're welcome CZ. go and patent it and make many lol. Kinda like how I have this one shown. Just minus the straps.. and instead yeah just have a mag as a brace instead lol. Has that ever been a thing sold? I'll have to Google it when done cooking [emoji38](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210615/55b5b542e2e69dbd85fd6c45d1fe89c7.jpg)
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The entire purpose of this rule change is to get you to register your firearm. They don't care about the brace, they want the firearm that it's attached to.
If you know your history, then you know that there's only one reason to establish a registry.
Anything you register now is simply going to be confiscated later on. And when you register it, you're on their radar, and they have an excuse to come to your house later on.
No thanks. YMMV, but I'll take the brace off and ditch it before I invite the AFT into my life.
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Yeah I agree. I don't like lists. My scorpion tho I have it setup to run fine with a brace or with just a single point stretchy sling. I can press out the sling and use it that way pretty stable along with a big Ole eotech sight. I also have a laser flashlight combo on it and with a touch of a button I can hip fire it anyways. So that one won't bother me that much. Guess I can get the same light setup for the 57.
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Serious question tho. Could I simply remove the cuff off my brace arm and run just the stick? It would be like an AR tube basically. Any thoughts?
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Ok. I can live with the stick if needs be lol. And if SHTF a cuff is the last of my worries I suppose lol. And I need to write them also. I haven't yet. I went to once bust was busy and when I checked it.. it was asking for a number to be attached etc and it was in an article in such a way if I recall I couldn't copy and paste in and ensure I didn't botch it so I decided to wait. Anyways. I know form letters aren't allowed and will be tossed. But has anyone made a template that's shareable yet? One I can copy and paste then fill in with my ramblings. One that already has the number applied in the correct way.. and I can simply add the rest and click send. And idiot proof version so to speak lol?
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Ok. I can live with the stick if needs be lol. And if SHTF a cuff is the last of my worries I suppose lol. And I need to write them also. I haven't yet. I went to once bust was busy and when I checked it.. it was asking for a number to be attached etc and it was in an article in such a way if I recall I couldn't copy and paste in and ensure I didn't botch it so I decided to wait. Anyways. I know form letters aren't allowed and will be tossed. But has anyone made a template that's shareable yet? One I can copy and paste then fill in with my ramblings. One that already has the number applied in the correct way.. and I can simply add the rest and click send. And idiot proof version so to speak lol?
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Just read some of the comments to get an idea of what you want to say. It doesn't have to be long, just touch on a couple points in your own words or cut/paste a few lines from a few comments if you want to.
The more comments the better. We need to start getting more involved even if it doesn't affect you directly.
https://www.regulations.gov/document/ATF-2021-0002-0001/comment (https://www.regulations.gov/document/ATF-2021-0002-0001/comment)
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I know that. Sorry. I meant. How exactly is the number to be used in the message. Should it be on a separate sheet.. like a title page?.. up in a margin.. inside the actual text.. in the message name itself? All of the above? I'm sure they'll use any reasons to toss it out. So figured I'd ask to kind of see a "known valid model".. and base mine off of it.. so to speak. When I've seen legal papers in past there was many times a reference number.. case number and all that stuff kinda in a margin then a body of the letter with the text of what you're saying etc. In like a catalogable format. Maybe it won't matter but yeah wanting to be certain. I'm sure others have wondered the same thing maybe?
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Looking at the comments posted on the regulation’s website, I find myself wishing that more comments would talk about things like why the rule is unworkable, or why pistol braces pose no specific threat, or what it means to them to arbitrarily have to pay $200 to retain an item they own that was already legal.
The comments that simply state that it violates the 2nd amendment aren’t very meaningful as far as the commenting process goes. Comments that describe a negative impact of the law on people’s lives can have an affect on decision makers as can comments showing that anyone with knowledge of braces and rifles/pistols will recognize how senseless and unworkable the criteria are.
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Yeah. I'm sure way more than 400 posted. They're tossing them for small clerical issues etc. So I'd like to see exactly what an approved letter looks like so I can do it the same way. And yeah.. saw a video that pointed out that there's a clause in thier rules that says basically no matter what score u come up with. They have the power to charge ya anyways if they deem it fit that you're trying to circumvent the NFA with a pistol if they so choose to say you are no matter the score. And the guy in video made a good point too about that. And said that if that's the case even a COLT 1911 is made ro circumvent the roster by skirting the criteria they layed out to make the gun be on a roster. Or any other non sbr for that matter lol. So I'm deffo gonna try to find a legit accepted version and copy and paste all the format then insert my 2 cents
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I saw the Yankee Marshall guy on YouTube do a video and claim he had a MP5 with a brace that would make the guidelines. I think he was very mistaken in how he graded it. So far I haven't seen a single model of anything yet that can safely be said is legal according to the guidelines they're proposing
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Northern, I am unable to find either of my (different) submissions by referencing the verification codes of the comments at regulations.gov
Upon emailing regulations helpdesk to ask them why, this was the information that I received. The short answer is that the ATF is responsible for what is being posted publicly and they are basically witholding whatever they want to and are censoring all responses.
This is a copy and paste of the specific email from the helpdesk.
So, it's not that people are not commenting. The ATF directly are only posting what they want anyone to read. Emphasis below in bold.
Additional Comments:
Entered on 06/14/2021 at 09:28:27 EDT (GMT-0400) by Pat M:
To date ATF has received 36714 comments to docket ATF-2021-0002 of which 418 comments have been posted for public view. The posting of comments is managed directly by the agency.
For additional information please contact the agency representative listed in the For Further Information Contact section of the proposed rule directly:
Denise Brown, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives; telephone: (202) 648-7070 (this is not a toll-free number).
Thank you for contacting the Regulations.gov Help Desk
John A., this is super frustrating. Keep trying!
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If you're having issues submitting a comment, you can always use GOA's form message system to do it. There's a spot there that you can personalize it with as well. I find their automated doodads convenient for stuff like this.
https://www.gunowners.org/na06102021/ (https://www.gunowners.org/na06102021/)
They also have a helpful rundown on how to write comments:
https://www.gunowners.org/atf-comments-faqs/ (https://www.gunowners.org/atf-comments-faqs/)
While you're at it, you can use their other auto-doodads to send letters to your Senators and demand they stop Chipman from climbing into the saddle at AFT. They have one for the proposed 80% ban, too.
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I saw the Yankee Marshall guy on YouTube do a video and claim he had a MP5 with a brace that would make the guidelines. I think he was very mistaken in how he graded it. So far I haven't seen a single model of anything yet that can safely be said is legal according to the guidelines they're proposing
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The problem that everyone will have with trying to play the worksheet game and getting under the magical and arbitrary 4 points is this:
"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives reserves the right to preclude classification as a pistol with a “stabilizing braces” for any firearm that achieves an apparent qualifying score but is an attempt to make a “short-barreled rifle” and circumvent the GCA or NFA."
That's at the top of the worksheet. In English, it means that the AFT reserves the right to declare your firearm a SBR regardless of whether achieves a "passing" score on the worksheet. They'll just say it's a SBR anyway.
They want you to either register it, or they want you to be a felon. I'm not going to play that game.
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Yep. I also think he didn't score it as an agent would. If he's correct.. a scorpion with same style brace would pass also. And yes.. that clause screws the pooch on any gun trying to pass the rules. And it can be argued with that clause that if someone makes a standard colt pistol.. they too did so to circumvent the roster lol. So that clause is a catch all for all firearms tbh.
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I will ask a dumb question. I am new to this world. (Not CZ though. I purchased a CZ 75 when it they first became available and I love it.) Can a fella get the paperwork squared away, not configure his Scorpion thusly and go about his business as usual? Sort of have the SBR in his back pocket if needed?
Yes. I just finished Form 1'ing my Scorpion to an SBR. If I keep it configured with an arm brace, it's a pistol (under current regs) and can operate and be transported as such. If I put a regular stock on it, it's now an SBR and the Form 1 takes care of me there... although transporting it is a little different, especially out of State. If you're Form 1'ing your Scorpion as an individual you don't need another engraving other than the engravings already on the gun. I'm not sure about doing the same as a Trust. I don't have a gun trust, so never dug into that part. My NFA items will be handled through my Will and there are ways to make the transfer fairly easy and painless and not cost another $200 for the next inline for owning them (when I die).
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I appreciate the helpful replies from everyone. My apologies if this is too wordy. The context for me fretting a little more than the next guy is that I have a 23 year old with high functioning autism and I have had enough heartache. I bought the darn thing to protect my house in case the world goes to heck (one could reasonably argue that it has already has gone to heck) and on the rare occasion that I may go to the range with chums. I prefer to not wake up one morning and find out I am officially 'bad guy' number one.
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Literally all the accusations they make.. They're on record as being guilty of. It's a open case of rules for you.. not for them. They're trying to disarm as they fan flames. They're creating division where there is none. All thier model examples of thier political conceptual cities are in flames and are in total chaos. Trying to word this as politically neutral as possible lol. I myself am half Choctaw Warrior. And I think America is the best dam thing going. I live in Alabama. Supposedly the most racist place on earth. And I do just fine and never experience crap as far as stuff they want ya to believe. I don't lean totally right. And no where near left. But in the middle. The sane Grey area. Both sides have faults. But I'll tell ya this. Don't expect to see any commemorative presidential Biden Harris desert eagles anytime soon lol. And everyone next time around should vote for however promises to not infringe on any rights. No matter what. Cause they'll always offer protection in exchange for rights. But those who give up thier rights in exchange for protection. Deserve neither and will lose both
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@1000RR, what you said about transporting and engraving doesn’t comport with the instructions and information I have read. Could you point to a reliable source that says if you remove the stock from a registered SBr you can cross state lines without going through the formal process required for transporting NFA items? And what is the source for the proposition that individuals need not engrave?
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Once you have your stamp, the gun is registered and contained in their database with your serial number as an SBR. The unit first has to "be" an SBR to fall under the SBR regulations. If it is not an SBR, then it's simply not an SBR. The fact that it is on the db allows it to be configured as an SBR but if you don't configure it, it's simply not an SBR. If you'd like, you can always send a letter in requesting they remove it from the database. This is also the way you might sell this weapon in the future without having to have the purchaser get his/her own stamp prior to taking possession. Think of it like this - similar with a solvent trap you might purchase. You don't drill the holes until you receive your stamp. Once you receive your stamp, you are now allowed to drill the holes, ensure the proper markings on the can, and now the solvent trap becomes a suppressor and is an NFA item. Prior to drilling the holes, the can is not a suppressor, it's still a solvent trap. Solvent traps are not illegal to possess or transport. Hope that helps. It's been a while since I researched and read through everything, so unfortunately I can't point you to the black and white version.
If I remove my stock from my Scorpion, and it has no stock what so ever, ask yourself if it's a pistol or an SBR. The database that allows it to be an SBR isn't a searchable database or something readily available to do checks with - so it would be far fetched for ATF to be sitting at your range asking each person with a Scorpion in pistol configuration (or an AR type gun) - sir, I know that's not an SBR right now, but are you sure it's not on the NFA database having been provided a stamp to make it an SBR?
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As long as that gun is in the nfa registery, guess what that gun is registered as regardless of whether you have a stock on it or not.
I agree it is in the registry once you've been issued a stamp, where we disagree is whether or not it is in fact an SBR if it is in pistol configuration and therefore still falls under the rules of an SBR even though it is a pistol (according to the ATF's definitions). From my reading and research, my understanding is that an SBR is an SBR and a pistol is a pistol regardless of what is contained in the registry. The registry simply covers the individual if they in fact utilize/possess the gun and is in an SBR configuration (according to how an SBR is defined). Again, that is my understanding. I'm not here to argue my side vs. yours. Your understanding is different and I was initially under the same thought approach as you. Since my further digging into it, that has changed. As you know, the ATF pretty much has enough ambiguity in their language in various areas that you need to be careful regardless.
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@1000RR, I can understand the logic of your theory but I believe it is incorrect. Once you have registered a gun as an SBR under the NFA, that gun is an SBR in the eyes of the law until it is removed from the registry. Otherwise you could remove the stock, sell the gun to a buyer, and they could add the stock and the gun would remain registered — but that’s not how it works. You can transfer an SBr and the buyer must wait to take possession until they get separate approval; or you can remove the parts that make it an SBR, then request to remove it from the registry, then sell it, then the new buyer may do a form 1. I understand where you are coming from with your theory of how it works, but it’s a reading of the law that attempts to skirt it’s effects, which is a dangerous approach unless you have a legit source verifying it. Same goes for interstate transport.
May or may not be accurate:
https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/removing-an-sbr-sbs-from-the-nfrtr-and-then-reregistering-the-sbr-sbs-process
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The ATF has issued opinion letters to the effect that an SBR is only an SBR when it is in an SBR configuration. One Example: https://imgur.com/a/2kGJvHf
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Registration is always followed by confiscation. Always. Sic semper tyrannis
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Registration is always followed by confiscation. Always. Sic semper tyrannis
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ALWAYS
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I predict a record snapper population soon if it flies. With all the new rifled reefs that will soon accidently be made following the ruling lol
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I predict a record snapper population soon if it flies. With all the new rifled reefs that will soon accidently be made following the ruling lol
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LMAO!!! Sounds about right!
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[emoji23][emoji23]
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The new atf director is going to be confirmed even though he lied under oath and they are hiding his personnel file. Then listen to grandpa applesauce brain talk about firearms today.
bleep the paperwork. Prepare yourselves. Looking for a can for 1/2x28 if anyone knows where to get one cheap.
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I live in a tri-state hub kinda area where a few miles into either direction lands me into other states fast. So that puts a wet blanket on a dedicated car gun being a SBR right there. Then my health sucks. So my kid won't be able to hawk the wares I bequeath to her anytime soon if she So chooses when I pass in the next few years. Theyre a pain in the butt to sell. So I have mine braced for impact so to speak. The simple fact the ATF etc came out and started this convo on braces a few months back proves thier total uselessness. They basically admitted they sat around and did nuttin for ages while SBR's was being sold in the wide open. Now they wanna play catch up. And if they get thier way if other bills too.. it won't just be SBR stamps. They'd like to add all "high cap" magazines to be individually taxed too the same way. As stated above if people comply it will be inundated with requests and take 20 years to be fully compliant. Not to mention if each firearm ya own has let's say 10 mags.. that's 2k in taxes alone on mags. Another 200 for sbr. So I'm leaving mine braced till yeah there's no other option. And even then if I'm forced to SBR some.. they can still use same brace afterwards. I think. Once ya stamp it I think ya can run whatever stock ya want at that point. Don't quote me. I'm no expert. Takes a rocket scientist to keep track of all the stuff. But if it gets to be a thing that must be done they should do an amnesty imo and offer free access to SBR the current ones in circulation. Since they sat by and idly watched as the situation occurred to begin with
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Though it no longer makes sense to use a trust for the loop holes it had, you do get to make someone equally able to use, sell etc. any NFA item in the trust. Mine was done before the BS hurdles were added to the process. My wife will be able to sell mine that is if my brother doesn't want it. He's on there too.
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Yeah I'm about to have to go thru it for a can soon. Gonna have to look into the trust stuff I guess soon for that
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I lost my scorpion
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IF I end up buying a Scorpion pistol with brace. I would probably SBR it sooner than later.
If braces are considered stocks via an ATF ruling, then there will be a flood of Form 1 SBR applications and receiving the final approval/stamp will take a LONG time. Maybe 18 months or longer.