The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: Bdubbs on March 13, 2022, 06:21:34 PM
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I love my P-07s. At 5'4" 150lbs I can conceal a subcompact grip better.
I'm thinking about cutting my old P-07 duty to accept P10S mags. I've already done this to a PPQ with P99c mags so it won't be my first rodeo. People do it to Glocks quite often.
Chop the frame, trim the main spring, maybe take a little off the hammer strut? Has anyone here done this already? Pics, insights, words of encouragement/discouragement? I want your opinion.
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Keep it covered, nobody knows what's underneath your shirt.
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If you're ever forced to use it in a Left-leaning jurisdiction, you may well have to defend yourself against an allegation that your chopper is unsafe. With such an extensive modification, I wouldn't want that unnecessary burden.
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Get's my tummy queezy talking about chopping up a CZ, any CZ!!!!
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I love my P-07s. At 5'4" 150lbs I can conceal a subcompact grip better.
I'm thinking about cutting my old P-07 duty to accept P10S mags. I've already done this to a PPQ with P99c mags so it won't be my first rodeo. People do it to Glocks quite often.
Chop the frame, trim the main spring, maybe take a little off the hammer strut? Has anyone here done this already? Pics, insights, words of encouragement/discouragement? I want your opinion.
Pretty sure someone here chopped a P-09 grip down to create a long slide P-07 and posted some photos of it a few years ago. Don't recall anyone chopping a P-07 grip down to P10S size. Obviously you're going to need to come up with a shorter hammer spring and hammer strut, and drill a fairly precise hole to hold the mainspring plug in with the pin.
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Hey Bdubbs,
I absolutely think you should give it a try. Only problem is I think there’s a little homework involved.
First thing is first. Check out the following thread.
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=85228.0 (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=85228.0)
This has been done before. The thread has a picture of a chopped P-07. From what I have gathered from the limited information on that chop was that the man used rami mags. This is important to consider because the man maybe used other Rami parts to make it work?
How about comparing a Rami hammer strut to a P-07. I’m sure some users on the site won’t mind posting pics side by side. Possibly use a chopped P-07 hammer strut and a Rami hammer spring? If my research is correct, the Rami uses a CZ 75 B standard hammer. This means the hammer has not been modified for such a short hammer spring. So, in theory if the Rami hammer is from a full sized pistol, the chopped P-07 can run off of the same hammer, even with a short strut and spring.
If I’m wrong about the hammers being interchangeable on a Rami and a 75, please let me know. I’m all ears.
As to measure where to drill the grip pin… That’s the harder part. I’d guess you’d let the mag length determine where to drill for the pin. If that man in the thread with the chopped P-07 used Rami mags, maybe it would be worth comparing rami and P-10S mags as well?
The last concern is would you use the same hammer spring plug? I think the hammer spring plug length would be the variable that would require testing. Leave it full length and if the hammer spring/strut doesn’t have enough room, shave down the plug little by little until it’s fully functional.
But I’d like to do this and I think it could work. I just don’t have a P-07 lying around to try it. But I do think it’s worth an attempt. If you’re not going to be destroyed if the project fails, you should do it. But that’s just my .02. If you do get it to work. I’ll be doing it myself after I grip chop a P-09.
Thank you!
z0mbi3
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I appreciate the feedback. Thanks for linking that thread z0mbi3.
I've made up my mind. I'm doing it, as soon as I have the time. I'll post pics when it is finished.
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P-07 is already short, why would you want to chop it? Never mind personal preference I guess 🤷???. wouldn't be me.
Bigger the better nobody knows what's under your shirt.
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Hey Bdubbs,
Any news on the chop, yet? Is there anything holding you up?
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I'm a big guy. Tall and round. I can agree that the first thing that shows that P07 is the grip frame sticking out against my baggy button up shirt when I've been in the car/truck and it slides rearward/tilts rearward due to sitting in the vehicle seat.
So a shorter grip frame would be easier to keep "hidden" under the shirt.
My concerns would be functioning and how well I could hold it in my hands to shoot it. I have two small grip frame guns. An M&P 9MM Shield and an FNS-C in .40 S&W.
The Shield is able to shoot awesome groups. Not just awesome "for it's size." Awesome as compared to other full sized 9MM guns I have had. It's right there with some of my CZs at 7 yds.
The .40 FNS-C? Nah. Me and the grip? Or the gun? I have no idea. A 9MM would have less recoil. I had to put some Talon grip panels on it to help me hold on to it better. Probably wouldn't be an issue with a 9MM.
Sometimes what feels odd in your hand, or not "the best" still shoots good. Like my P07 .40. Not as comfortable as the P01 but shoots better groups for me, so I realize a chopped P07 might not feel "right" but might still shoot good groups for me.
Why did I buy the FNS-C? It's a 10 round magazine pistol. At the time our state legislature was threatening to pass a 10 round mag. limit in VA. To me the idea of carrying a 15 round 9MM pistol, or a 12 round .40 pistol with only 10 round magazines in it seemed crazy. The FNS-C would have become one of my carry guns if they'd passed that law. In a 10 round mag. limit state a chopped down P07 would be a better fit. Why carry a big gun with a long magazine only partially full of ammo?
I'd say go for it if you've got the pistol, the time, the confidence that you can make it work. If you can, take lots of pictures along the way.
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I know it ain't a CZ, but look at the Sar USA B6c. 13 round, 3.8" bbl, poly frame and only $400 ish.
Good luck with the chop job if you do follow through. ;D
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M1A4ME,
You share the same concern I have. I am also concerned about how reliable it would be for functioning. But, if CZ was able to use a standard hammer with shorter components in the Rami, then I have no reason to believe this wouldn’t work. Maybe measure the spring uninstalled and installed, measure the length of the new compressed spring channel, do some math and find the uncompressed spring length? Again, in theory that should work.
And how cool would it be to have a full length P-07 slide on a chopped grip? I have a feeling this may be an alternative to the now discontinued Rami for those of us who don’t mind modifying a bit.
CZMikey,
Thank you for sharing about the SAR B6c. But my only concern is it doesn’t have much of a size difference from the P-07 in general. Not too much to gain.
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And I'll say it again,
NOBODY KNOWS WHAT'S UNDER YOUR SHIRT !!
I also say this because over in general discussion I posted the question ....
has anybody asked you what's under your shirt? So far there are 40 + answers that say NO !!
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Update:
I still intend to go through with this.
I always planned on doing the mod after I got my P-07 suppressor ready back from having an optic cut. Well, I sent that slide off the same week as my OP and it return shipped yesterday. That's what I get for requesting black nitride.
Anyway, I have no concerns about reliability. Not enough of the moving parts will be touched to give me any pause. I picked up a couple magazine grip spacers off Ebay a while back that are the exact dimensions of the material that will be removed from the frame. That will be a huge advantage to me when I start cutting. It'll also allow me to carry a 15 rnd mag as a spare or a 19 rnd mag if I use both spacers. I've also got a pinky extension base plate from cz-parts.com so that should take care of the shorter front strap real estate on the P-07 frame (compared to the P10S, due to the larger trigger guard on the 07) without bringing the grip length back to normal (which would make the whole endeavor pointless, obviously). The only hard part will be drilling the hammer-spring-plug retaining-pin hole, like Mr. CCWLearner and Mr. z0mbi3 alluded to.
I've had a P10C OR and a P10S OR for a couple years now and I am always surprised at how much easier I can conceal the 10S over the 10C, especially with a dot on top. It basically disappears. I plan to swap the optic cut 07 slide between regular frame and chopped frame depending on my wardrobe. I live in a temperate climate with four distinct seasons so my wardrobe varies quite a bit throughout the year. And to address Mr. DOC 1500's concerns, I've worked with and for people who absolutely would have no problem asking me what I've got in my waistband. I would prefer to not print at all if I can. I have the means and capacity to do so and I like doing this sort of thing.
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When you go from the "full sized" P07 to the chopped model/version you're going to have to get used to it.
Used to how it feels on your hip and how it feels when you grip it/shoot it.
If I carry the FNS-C or the Shield I find myself suddenly thinking I've lost my pistol when my elbow/arm aren't bumping into it as I walk around. I get a little "fright" that it's not there till I make a concerted effort to bump it as I swing my arm past while walking. That might go away if I carried them all the time.
When you shoot it you'll have to be sure you keep a good grip on it. Two things can happen. One is similar to limp wristing resulting in the pistol not ejecting/feeding/chambering correctly. The second would be the pistol moving enough that you find yourself having to "re-grip" the pistol every 3 or 4 shots. With a 9MM that might not be as much of an issue as it has been for me with the P07 with the original grip surfaces, the hard recoiling .40 ammo I carry and lots of sweat on my hands on a really hot/humid day. Just be on the look out for either if you run into issues after the mod.
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No way would I do that to mine. Good Luck...
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Evening all,
I just finished a “P-07 SC.” I did it in two stages.
Stage 1: Adjusted the hammer spring/strut/plug pin.
First I drilled a new hole, cut the strut down and then cut the hammer spring. I did this first and left the grip full length so I could test it. If it didn’t work, all I had to do was put on a new backstrap and it’s like it never happened. I also bought a rami spring just to compare against. I wanted to ensure I wasn’t going shorter. This P-07 hammer spring is longer than a rami hammer spring.
Once all work moving the hammer spring plug pin was finished, I took it out and shot over 100 rounds. Not a single hiccup. Ran just as it did before the spring was cut. Success for the moment.
Stage 2: Actually perform the grip chop.
This was the easy/tedious part. Just cut the grip initially with a dremel tool. Once the main cuts were made, used a 1” 80 grit belt sander to get the rough fit. Lastly, hand sand to make it look nice.
I have yet to actually take it out to fire as I just finished it a few hours ago. But I’m very happy with it and I’m glad I took the chance. The base plate of P-10S mags are taller than the stock P-07 mags, and I can get most of my pinky on the thick base plate. That’s a plus. Except for the P-10 mag base plates stick out on the P-07 in general, it looks great too.
I want to post pics but I need to find a photo hosting service.
If anyone has questions, ask. I’ll be happy to share.
Bdubbs, this is definitely doable. You got this.
Thank you!
z0mbi3
Edited to add picture. Thank you, Duke Nukem!
(https://i.imgur.com/8wCvt7e.jpeg)
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I want to post pics but I need to find a photo hosting service.
Thank you!
z0mbi3
Check out Imgur, it's free and I think they're good: https://imgur.com
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I would leave it factory. CZ and other makers make plenty of subcompact handguns. It’s a excuse to purchase another handgun.
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I would leave it factory. CZ and other makers make plenty of subcompact handguns. It’s a excuse to purchase another handgun.
I already own the factory subcompacts that I've ever had any interest in. What I don't have is a subcompact P-07.
z0mbi3, outstanding work! Hopefully I can get mine finished this week.
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It really looks good, too.
Only clue is the lack of border in the grip area at the bottom, but if you didn't know what it looked like to start with you wouldn't notice it not being there now.
That was a great job.
While it may not be "factory" it is still an unusual and seldom seen variant of the pistol.
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M1A4ME,
Thanks for the compliment. I was hoping it didn’t look terrible when it was finished. It’s amazing what 1000 grit can do.
Bdubbs,
Let me know if you need any measurements. I remember most of them. Maybe I should write them down if I need to chop another one later…
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Nice job. People talk about this here every so often and it looks like you pulled it off successfully.
The main issue I see with it now is how the P10 base pad juts out in front of the P-07 grip, which is also true on an un-chopped P-07. If it were me I'd probably knock that edge off the front of the base pad with a file and clean it up with some sandpaper.
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If it were me I'd probably knock that edge off the front of the base pad with a file and clean it up with some sandpaper.
Thanks for the suggestion, CCWLearner. I have considered it. But the problem is the baseplate is hollow behind that initial plastic. If you look close enough in the pic posted, you can see the gap between the lip of the baseplate and the grip. So there’s no real way to sand it down to look nice. I could consider aftermarket baseplates but that’ll be a decision for a different day. I need to buy more ammo.
Thanks again!
z0mbi3
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Depending on the fingers/hand gripping it and the grip, some people like something sticking out a little bit to help the hand/fingers grip the same spot the same way every time.
We've all seen those little base plates for the compacts and micro compacts that stick out/down to give your lowest finger a place to meet up with/hold on to.
On my P07s I notice my little finger fits right up against the top/front of the base plate on the magazine. Just right - but it might not be for someone else.
So, what fits/feels good in your hands is what your want. No one is going to see the pistol grip/magazine unless you pull it from the holster to use it, and then you won't be worried about what it looks like while you're being forced to use it.
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I need the factory flush-fitting +0 base pad that originally came on P-07 magazines to feel like I have a proper grip on my P-07, or else some aftermarket base pad, whether it be extended or +0. I have the aluminum UTG Leapers +0 base pads on my range mags, which are advertised as both P-07 and P10 compatible, and they fit my hand alright. That sharp edge jutting out on those factory P10 +0 base pads doesn't work for my hand.
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This is pretty cool. Didn't even notice until I looked at the handle.
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Update.
I went to the range on Saturday and was only able to shoot 60 rounds. Every shot went off and didn’t have any ejection/extraction issues. It ran perfect that way. Only problem I had was the slide wouldn’t lock back after the last round for a few mags. It didn’t matter which mag I had out there, which I had 3 (19 rd., 15 rd., and 12 rd.). So it wasn’t the mag… I cut the hammer spring to 42 mm + 1 complete coil. Maybe the hammer spring is still too heavy and I should shave it down a half coil? Opinions welcome.
Also, as far as concealing, it’s great. Perfect size for light clothes. It carrie’s better than I expected. With exception of the last round hold open issue, this thing great.
Bdubbs, let me know what you think after you finish yours.
M1A4ME, thanks for the positive support!
If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask.
Z0mbi3
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Before cutting the hammer spring, could you try a slightly lighter recoil spring?
It's a balance of force required to cock the hammer spring and force required to compress the recoil spring.
If the hammer spring is doing more to absorb the slide rearward movement force a lighter recoil spring might work without possibly affecting the ignition of primers. Some people don't mind only using the softer Federal primers but if they ever needed to use ammo with a different primer they'd have issues.
I also see suggestions sometimes to run hotter ammo if a gun seems to be unreliable with run of the mill "target" ammo. Why can't a gun run all ammo? My P07/P09, etc. run that rinky dink 115 grain FMJ paper punching ammo and +P ammo with recoil being the only thing I notice. All factory recoil springs.
Not saying you should continue to run factory recoil springs (because you have changed the hammer spring and the hammer spring/hammer set up.) Just saying that some guns do run everything and I prefer that over a gun that needs specialized ammo just for that gun.
Hope you get your "new" model of P07 set up and running like a top.
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M1A4ME,
Good suggestion. I didn’t want to buy any extra parts to keep it a simple conversion, but the truth is a recoil spring is cheap. Also, cajun gun works has some great info on recoil springs.
I would also consider bumping up from using critical defense rounds to critical duty for carry ammo.
Again, thanks for the suggestion. I have more homework to do.
z0mbi3
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You could purchase the CZ P10M?
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Keep it covered, nobody knows what's underneath your shirt.
AMEN - please don't chop it a ruin a great gun.
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I wouldn't do this to a CZ, but I understand your desire to do it. I do a lot of projects just to see if I can pull it off. It's the need to produce something with your own labor and ingenuity, so I love this thread. I don't have to want to do the same project to appreciate your project and how well it turned out. Congrats and I'm sure you'll get the minor kinks worked out with the slide failure to lock back. Here's to home projects!
8)
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Excellent work! That looks just about good enough to be factory. I would totally buy a P07 like that
On the springs, personally I would try to modify the hammer spring rather than the recoil spring. The stock P07 recoil spring is great for all around use, and so far you have only modified the hammer spring. By changing the recoil spring you will have a second variable to balance.
Hammer springs are very cheap and if it were me i would buy a couple different weights and experiment by cutting them until they work just right. Sounds like you don't have too far to go right now to get there.
By the way, how did this change the DA pull?
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Thanks, everyone, for the comments. While I'm not the OP, I still like reading the ongoing discussion.
And for those who suggest not to, I want to bring you my perspective. The first handgun I had ever bought was a 1911. I would like to continue running that if it weren't so expensive to shoot. It may make some of you nauseous, but I'd rock a gov length slide on an officer's height frame if I could. I like the standard length slide on a shorter frame. It may not look super pretty, but it would be the most effective set-up for me. That said, the CZ P-07/P-09 is shooting 9mm, cheaper than 45, and I need that change. Also, I still like the 1911 SAO w/ manual safety and the simplicity of the design. And like a 1911, the omega system doesn't take an armorer to work on. So, considering everything, of all the firearms to chop, why not a P-07/P-09? I don't want to move to a striker-fired action handgun. No interest. I'm also not interested in any micro pistols either. I've looked at the new S&W CSX. But if I use a P-10S mag on a P-07, the height of my P-07 is now nearly the same as a S&W CSX. You could say my chopped P-07 is a P-07S aiming for that subcompact size. So why would I get a super short barrel with the same amount of height? I just don't want my grip hanging out during the summer months. So truly, after making the chop, the grip is perfect for my application. Lastly, I can have a 19-round (P-09/P-10F) mag as a backup, so I'm loaded. Again, I don't see any downside to performing this chop as it serves my needs.
It does indeed have to be done correctly for it to work out. But as long as all measurements are triple verified before making cuts/drills, it's fine. On another note, if they sold a P-07S (P-05?), I'd have already bought one.
Again, I respect everyone's opinion. I'm just giving you mine.
jertex:
I must say I do enjoy tinkering with firearms. So, I guess that's a part of it too. I was very concerned about destroying the P-07, so I put the idea on ice for so long. And as you may have noticed in the discussion, I looked at the engineering between a CZ-75 and RAMI to find out what was different and what wasn't. But the more I discovered that a good number of the RAMI fire control group parts were interchangeable with CZ-75s, I believed this was doable. Thanks for the comment!
Also, inthevalley:
Thanks for the compliment. I ended up getting an 18-pound recoil spring from CGW. I did the hammer spring math and am confident with where it's at. I don't want to mess with the hammer spring anymore because I don't want any light primer strikes. And I want to mention again that this hammer spring is longer than a RAMI hammer spring. If the same hammer springs are used between the CZ-75s, P-07/P-09s, and RAMIs (which are the same but just cut), I know I'm not truly messing with any of the engineering. And after the updated recoil spring, the cartridges land 6 feet away without any lock-back issues. I'm thoroughly enjoying this pistol.
As for the DA pull... I cannot comment. I primarily use the manual safety, so I haven't noticed a difference. I did some very light polishing on the hammer strut so DA it would feel smoother. Therefore, I can't tell the difference when considering just the chop alone. All I have to say is I like it, and it hasn't seemed to have changed too much.
Please post if anyone else has any suggestions, opinions, or ideas!
I really enjoy competing ideas.
Thanks again!
z0mbi3