The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bdubbs on July 21, 2022, 02:51:48 AM
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In fact, it has already begun.
Change my mind.
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I truly hope not. From a common sense point of view (which is lacking these days) a very successful company merged with a company (Colt) that failing in the general sense. Sure they had the Colt M4 govt contract thing, but really nothing else. The company was obviously ruined from the inside. So, one would hope CZ would squre things away and get them back to success.
I am probably missing some details. What examples do you have pointing to Colt bringing CZ down? For me personally, the demise of the CZ LE/MIL program is what has really hit me hard. When I first got into CZ, I could order guns direct from CZ (which I did many times) through their awesome MIL/LE department guys. I could reach out to them with any questions and they even took suggestions and had LE/MIL only stuff for purchase. The CZ webstore also had discounts for LE/MIL. They have pretty much wiped all of that out.
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In fact, it has already begun.
How is that?
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Change my mind.
Defend your position, or be marked as a troll.
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In fact, it has already begun.
Change my mind.
Agreed. I won’t change your mind. This guy knows from the inside:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vs5Vd0_2fdE
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Fully agree with him. I have not held a high opinion of Colt in many many years. I fully trusted my Colt M4 while I served in iraq as an Infantryman. However, outside of that I have not love for Colt. As a civilian I view them as a top company from years long ago. As for mil contracts and innovating, I would say Sig is now on top of that. Really not impressed that CZ has been so quiet about plans for Colt. I guess we shall see what plays out, but so far, not impressed.
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Folks, I asked the OP to defend his position, not for you to do it for him. His OP was a classic ‘throwing a match into a gasoline soaked woodpile’ comment. Let’s see what he has to say.
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Troll has left the room!
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Troll has left the room!
He posted at 2pm on the 21st. You posted at about 10 pm on the 22nd. I know we have a habit and need for instant gratification, but give it a bit of time before calling someone a troll. Some people do other things with their time.
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Troll has left the room!
He posted at 2pm on the 21st. You posted at about 10 pm on the 22nd. I know we have a habit and need for instant gratification, but give it a bit of time before calling someone a troll. Some people do other things with their time.
Agreed. Looking through his posts, he is engaged and informed. I don't think he's a troll.
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That is why I have asked him to defend his position. If he does, fine. If not, then we know. It's been two days, he apparently isn't that interested in people trying to change his mind
I will not tolerate people just throwing up a one line post designed to provoke argument, then walking away.
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Oh the drama...
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In fact, it has already begun.
Change my mind.
dont care, dont need to.
its your mind and way of thinking, i have better things to do than to try and change anyones mind on anything.
its not the first time colt has gone down and wont be the last...
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Anyone had any interactions with CZ webstore customer service lately?
Where is the DWX?
Why have so many relevant products been discontinued?
The kind of resources CZ will have to dump into Colt just to keep it afloat is going to be ugly. I doubt Colt will be profitable for years to come.
No trolling here. I intended to start a discussion not an argument. That is my opinion based on recent experience and observation. I'm not happy about it but that's how it looks to me.
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You might look into international politics to see why some products might not be available/profitable. First, there seems to be this major land war going on nearby, (583 miles from uhersky Brod to Kiev), which has many of the European powers looking a little closer to home when it comes to weapons production. I would be quite surprised if CZ-UB hasn't diverted a LOT of production capacity to BREN 2 and P-10 firearms for use either local or diverted to Ukraine. ]
Note - this post does NOT open the floor for debate on the war, merely pointing out what is most likely taking place.
Throw in the fact that Trudeau in Canada, where Colt Canada is located, has recently made a LOT of waves with freezing production/importation of handguns and semi auto rifles, etc., which means that CZ must wonder if they bought a pig in a poke with the likely huge financial loss with Colt Canaga trying to stumble along with only military/law enforcement sales.
Then, come home to the US, where the current Administration continuously talks "assault weapon bans", "high, (?), capacity magazine bans" and other rot, and states enact laws to hold firearms manufacturers guilty of criminal misuse of lawfully sold products. Throw in that CZ had money sunk into the startup factory in Little Rock that will likely never be finished with the acquisition of Colt, and you have a very interesting financial and political landscape to navigate.
I don't doubt the influence of all these factors is what has CZ/Colt reducing production of some models, not sinking money in uncertain R&D, and perhaps just trying to catch a breath before the next idiocy. I have a strong feeling that might be the reason the BREN 2 BR has been more or less permanently shelved for US production.
So, just to be fair, I'd say wait until Jan or Feb 2023 to point the fingers at CZ, and see what might be happening.
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I considered most of that before I made my post. To be clear, I'm not pointing any fingers at CZ, just one middle finger at Colt. It will take a lot for me to think of them as one entity. Had CZ not bought Colt I believe they would have weathered the current situation much better.
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You might look into international politics to see why some products might not be available/profitable. First, there seems to be this major land war going on nearby, (583 miles from uhersky Brod to Kiev), which has many of the European powers looking a little closer to home when it comes to weapons production. I would be quite surprised if CZ-UB hasn't diverted a LOT of production capacity to BREN 2 and P-10 firearms for use either local or diverted to Ukraine. ]
Note - this post does NOT open the floor for debate on the war, merely pointing out what is most likely taking place.
Throw in the fact that Trudeau in Canada, where Colt Canada is located, has recently made a LOT of waves with freezing production/importation of handguns and semi auto rifles, etc., which means that CZ must wonder if they bought a pig in a poke with the likely huge financial loss with Colt Canaga trying to stumble along with only military/law enforcement sales.
Then, come home to the US, where the current Administration continuously talks "assault weapon bans", "high, (?), capacity magazine bans" and other rot, and states enact laws to hold firearms manufacturers guilty of criminal misuse of lawfully sold products. Throw in that CZ had money sunk into the startup factory in Little Rock that will likely never be finished with the acquisition of Colt, and you have a very interesting financial and political landscape to navigate.
I don't doubt the influence of all these factors is what has CZ/Colt reducing production of some models, not sinking money in uncertain R&D, and perhaps just trying to catch a breath before the next idiocy. I have a strong feeling that might be the reason the BREN 2 BR has been more or less permanently shelved for US production.
So, just to be fair, I'd say wait until Jan or Feb 2023 to point the fingers at CZ, and see what might be happening.
None of that happening in the world or in politics is going to be helped by CZ pouring stupid money into moribund Colt. No doubt, burning money with the incompetent Colt management and decrepit, run down factory diminishes CZ’s war efforts as well as their business interests. In fact, Colt is a liability where it is now, just waiting for CT to get around to suing them into oblivion for “gun violence” like they did with Remington.
Just take the Colt trademark (the only thing of any value, anyway) and move it down South into new facilities where it will be appreciated and supported and where CZ & Colt will prosper. If Fidelito wants to screw with Colt Canada, just shut it all down and move it down South as well.
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You might look into international politics to see why some products might not be available/profitable. First, there seems to be this major land war going on nearby, (583 miles from uhersky Brod to Kiev), which has many of the European powers looking a little closer to home when it comes to weapons production. I would be quite surprised if CZ-UB hasn't diverted a LOT of production capacity to BREN 2 and P-10 firearms for use either local or diverted to Ukraine. ]
Note - this post does NOT open the floor for debate on the war, merely pointing out what is most likely taking place.
Throw in the fact that Trudeau in Canada, where Colt Canada is located, has recently made a LOT of waves with freezing production/importation of handguns and semi auto rifles, etc., which means that CZ must wonder if they bought a pig in a poke with the likely huge financial loss with Colt Canaga trying to stumble along with only military/law enforcement sales.
Then, come home to the US, where the current Administration continuously talks "assault weapon bans", "high, (?), capacity magazine bans" and other rot, and states enact laws to hold firearms manufacturers guilty of criminal misuse of lawfully sold products. Throw in that CZ had money sunk into the startup factory in Little Rock that will likely never be finished with the acquisition of Colt, and you have a very interesting financial and political landscape to navigate.
I don't doubt the influence of all these factors is what has CZ/Colt reducing production of some models, not sinking money in uncertain R&D, and perhaps just trying to catch a breath before the next idiocy. I have a strong feeling that might be the reason the BREN 2 BR has been more or less permanently shelved for US production.
So, just to be fair, I'd say wait until Jan or Feb 2023 to point the fingers at CZ, and see what might be happening.
Ukraine's militia/second line troops small arms are largely com-bloc/Soviet-era, and shouldn't be too relevant -- and can't imagine the Bren alone heading into Ukraine for foreign troops would bottleneck production. If the Czech Republic or other nations are plusing up arms, that's a possibility, though doubtful.
IIRC, the CZ handguns and rifles still have separate production lines due to most still requiring at least some hand fitting.
The purpose of Colt purchasing Diemaco/Colt Canada was for their intellectual property, and same for CZ-UB. Uncertain since the rise of the HK-416/417, but prior Colt Canada supplied most of Western Europe's SOF w/ their M4s/equivalent. Under existing treaties, I don't think Trudeau can halt military sales or export of machines and equipment to the US should CZ-UB decide to move production.
The US Supreme Court just poured water on all of the gun grabbers schemes in the NYSRPA vs Bruen decision.
The modern business world is all about "beating expectations" in quarterly business filings w/ the FEC or similar if funded by private equity (uncertain of CZ-UB's deal composition). The goal is to return increasing profits to shareholders regardless of detriment to underlying business. Just look at Remington.
Onshoring is increasingly common in manufacturing (bringing jobs back to America) AND if CZ-UB doesn't move forward w/ its AR factory, it will lose $18 million in forgiveable loans.
Yes, with the COVID disruptions, we're still not back to whatever the new normal will be -- it's still a time of turmoil and atypical business operations and supply chains.
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Anyone had any interactions with CZ webstore customer service lately?
Where is the DWX?
Why have so many relevant products been discontinued?
The kind of resources CZ will have to dump into Colt just to keep it afloat is going to be ugly. I doubt Colt will be profitable for years to come.
No trolling here. I intended to start a discussion not an argument. That is my opinion based on recent experience and observation. I'm not happy about it but that's how it looks to me.
I think your questions are valid, and they are similar to my own. I don't buy that CZ is "so busy" providing arms to the conflict in Ukraine that it has affected their US production. I also don't buy that any of the anti-gun rhetoric coming from the current Administration (which is certainly nothing new) is "scaring them off" from cranking up production.
I also still don't understand how it was CZ that bought Colt, and yet somehow Colt executives are now running CZ USA?!? Because the track record at Colt has been so stellar in the last decade that CZ was like, "hey you guys are clearly already doing a great job, how about we hand over our U.S. operation to you?!?"
There is a lot about this whole thing that doesn't seem to add up. And at the end of the day, as a simple customer and someone who really enjoys the CZ, Dan Wesson and Colt products that I own, I was hoping for more excitement and momentum behind these threee unified brands by this point. Instead, it's been nothing but crickets and cutting back. I don't get it.
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Anyone had any interactions with CZ webstore customer service lately?
Where is the DWX?
Why have so many relevant products been discontinued?
The kind of resources CZ will have to dump into Colt just to keep it afloat is going to be ugly. I doubt Colt will be profitable for years to come.
No trolling here. I intended to start a discussion not an argument. That is my opinion based on recent experience and observation. I'm not happy about it but that's how it looks to me.
I think your questions are valid, and they are similar to my own. I don't buy that CZ is "so busy" providing arms to the conflict in Ukraine that it has affected their US production. I also don't buy that any of the anti-gun rhetoric coming from the current Administration (which is certainly nothing new) is "scaring them off" from cranking up production.
I also still don't understand how it was CZ that bought Colt, and yet somehow Colt executives are now running CZ USA?!? Because the track record at Colt has been so stellar in the last decade that CZ was like, "hey you guys are clearly already doing a great job, how about we hand over our U.S. operation to you?!?"
There is a lot about this whole thing that doesn't seem to add up. And at the end of the day, as a simple customer and someone who really enjys the CZ, Dan Wesson and Colt products that I own, I was hoping for more excitement and momentum behind these threee unfied brands by this point. Instead, it's been nothing but crickets and cutting back. I don't get it.
God, I hope Colt’s management is not running the whole show now. That would truly be the kiss of death for CZ.
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Anyone had any interactions with CZ webstore customer service lately?
Where is the DWX?
Why have so many relevant products been discontinued?
The kind of resources CZ will have to dump into Colt just to keep it afloat is going to be ugly. I doubt Colt will be profitable for years to come.
No trolling here. I intended to start a discussion not an argument. That is my opinion based on recent experience and observation. I'm not happy about it but that's how it looks to me.
I think your questions are valid, and they are similar to my own. I don't buy that CZ is "so busy" providing arms to the conflict in Ukraine that it has affected their US production. I also don't buy that any of the anti-gun rhetoric coming from the current Administration (which is certainly nothing new) is "scaring them off" from cranking up production.
I also still don't understand how it was CZ that bought Colt, and yet somehow Colt executives are now running CZ USA?!? Because the track record at Colt has been so stellar in the last decade that CZ was like, "hey you guys are clearly already doing a great job, how about we hand over our U.S. operation to you?!?"
There is a lot about this whole thing that doesn't seem to add up. And at the end of the day, as a simple customer and someone who really enjys the CZ, Dan Wesson and Colt products that I own, I was hoping for more excitement and momentum behind these threee unfied brands by this point. Instead, it's been nothing but crickets and cutting back. I don't get it.
God, I hope Colt’s management is not running the whole show now. That would truly be the kiss of death for CZ.
I couldn't agree more.
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I’m on the flip side, where I don’t see Colt negativity impacting CZ. I don’t think CZ puts much creative or manufacturing control in it’s US operation; I think all of the strings are pulled from their motherland. The US operation seems to be largely based on distribution and marketing. The CZ conglomerate seems to know how to profit from military contracts and sport, with innovation stemming from both. I see a natural pause due to Covid and war, and expect great things to come.
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I’m on the flip side, where I don’t see Colt negativity impacting CZ. I don’t think CZ puts much creative or manufacturing control in it’s US operation; I think all of the strings are pulled from their motherland. The US operation seems to be largely based on distribution and marketing. The CZ conglomerate seems to know how to profit from military contracts and sport, with innovation stemming from both. I see a natural pause due to Covid and war, and expect great things to come.
Yes, CZ's purchase of Colt and domestic production factories is about chasing military and law enforcement contracts IMO.
The quarterly gains investors (public or private equity) investors expect if not demand nowadays can really only be achieved through finding new markets, business acquistion, or licensing or selling off intellectual property -- so it might be partially due to this, but I really think it's primarily the former.
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"Not entirely sure I follow this word salad, but will assume that English isn't your first language."
Have you heard Kamala Harris speak? I took it that donavo was mimicking her, which is funny.
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lol i hadnt even read the thread but the admins said i have to have 25 posts to freaking pm a dude, so here i am adding my very important opinion in matters i know nothing about
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colt and cz must work together as they continue to work together, to address these issues and tackle these challenges and to work together as they continue to work. operating from the new norms rules and agreements that they will convene, to work together on.
Not entirely sure I follow this word salad, but will assume that English isn't your first language. CZ now owns Colt b/c of Colt's failures. CZ can choose to be collaborative or adversarial in this acquisition to whatever extent their acquisition agreement allows (for instance, don't know if it requires assuming any union/labor contract obligations, keeping operations in CT, etc.), but the fact of the matter, again, is that CZ was able to acquire Colt b/c of Colt's failures, primarily in regards to profitability -- to be clear that's a problem primarily of management, not frontline employees.
IMO, the best thing CZ could do is to pull off the bandaid and get to work on fixing problems and restoring solvency. That may or may not mean relocating Colt from CT, upgrading machining, eliminating staff redundancy because of improved machinery, etc.
Because of the worksmanship/craftsmanship of CZ firearms, I am however confident that CZ appreciates skilled employees and won't go full six sigma (terminating employees to the max/max cost-cutting) or the private equity route to monetize everything of value to themselves before leaving only a carcass, like occurred with private equity's acquisition of Remington/Big Green before it was sold off in pieces in bankruptcy.
So I would hope that any changes made give the competent current Colt employees the opportunity to continue employment in whatever comes next. But that doesn't mean CZ and Colt working together - it means Colt bending a knee, and being open to and recognizing the need for learning from the successes of CZ across-the-board.
"word salad"....that just entered my phraseology.
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lol i hadnt even read the thread but the admins said i have to have 25 posts to freaking pm a dude, so here i am adding my very important opinion in matters i know nothing about
You are wearing out your welcome here. The restrictions are in place to protect the members. You would know this if you took the time to read the FAQ and other information pertaining to them.
If they are so onerous or restrictive that you find this forum less than ideal, I suggest you take your passive aggressive attitude elsewhere.
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lol i hadnt even read the thread but the admins said i have to have 25 posts to freaking pm a dude, so here i am adding my very important opinion in matters i know nothing about
You are wearing out your welcome here. The restrictions are in place to protect the members. You would know this if you took the time to read the FAQ and other information pertaining to them.
If they are so onerous or restrictive that you find this forum less than ideal, I suggest you take your passive aggressive attitude elsewhere.
make up your mind pal, you want me contributing to threads like you just did here or you want me containing my 25 posts in my own thread so i dont bother anybody? i got my first CZ recently, im trying to buy something from a guy on here and for some reason you decided that you gotta be the "please wear your mask" karen?
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lol i hadnt even read the thread but the admins said i have to have 25 posts to freaking pm a dude, so here i am adding my very important opinion in matters i know nothing about
You are wearing out your welcome here. The restrictions are in place to protect the members. You would know this if you took the time to read the FAQ and other information pertaining to them.
If they are so onerous or restrictive that you find this forum less than ideal, I suggest you take your passive aggressive attitude elsewhere.
make up your mind pal, you want me contributing to threads like you just did here or you want me containing my 25 posts in my own thread so i dont bother anybody? i got my first CZ recently, im trying to buy something from a guy on here and for some reason you decided that you gotta be the "please wear your mask" karen?
30 days moderated status, 'pal'
You can cool your jets for a while and use the time to decide whether you want to stay or not.
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Some big changes at CZ USA this week.
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Some big changes at CZ USA this week.
Details?
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Some big changes at CZ USA this week.
Details?
Sorry that was vague. Trying to determine if the change is public or not.
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Some big changes at CZ USA this week.
Details?
Sorry that was vague. Trying to determine if the change is public or not.
Well, make it public!
Allow me to speculate:
“CZ reissues the Rami BD, optics ready with a light rail in 9mm and .30 Super Carry!”
“CZ fixes the Bren 2 gas issues and begins production of 6.5 Grendel barrels / conversion kits.”
“CZ fires Colt management and moves all production to Arkansas, selling old CT factory to shopping center developer.”
“CZ launches new pistol models and the Scorpion Evo 3 chambered interchangeably between .357 Sig, 10mm and 7.5 FK Brno!”
“CZ announces new magazines compatible with both the original Scorpion Evo 3 and 3 Plus!”
“CZ Announces that all spare parts are in-stock on the new, easy-to-use Webstore, and shall remain that way!”
A guy can dream…that CZ will pull its collective head out of its collective ass…
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Quite frankly, I have no idea about the corporate interactions being discussed.
Having bought three CZ guns in the past (CZ-82, a P-O1 with 10,000 rds used!! , PCR) plus my Czechpoint VZ-58 :) in 2019, I would hate for anything to reduce the quality of CZ handguns. This prompted my interest in this topic. :)
CZ is one of the few handgun companies from which I would gladly buy a gun 8) -- based Only on unfamiliar owners' personal impressions-- with no chance to first handle a specific type (actually did so with a Walther P99 AS).
No kidding about my impressions of CZ designs/manufacturing, and I've stated this at least twice on TheHighRoad and possibly also on AKfiles.
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Re-posting something I posted earlier that was swept out with some other posts... including some sources this time.
As eluded to in at least one prior post, CZ-USA previously had plans to relocate from Kansas City to Little Rock, Arkansas. There was an announcement made by CZ-USA in 2019:
https://www.kark.com/news/local-news/firearms-manufacturer-cz-usa-chooses-little-rock-for-headquarters/1947280244/
“As CZ looked to increase our presence in North America, it engaged in a multi-state search for the ideal location,” said Bogdan Heczko, CZ-USA chairman of the board. “The Arkansas workforce, culture, business climate and industry support cleared the way for us to choose Little Rock as our new home.”
By July 2021 the deal was being declared dead by the local media, with the Colt acquisition being one of the factors:
https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2021/07/22/deal-for-little-rock-port-gun-factory-is-dead
Under a deal struck with the city and the state in 2019, CZ-USA was given 73 acres worth $1.7 million at the port and a promise of almost $22 million in state incentives to build a headquarters and factory at the port. Under an amended agreement, it promised to begin construction by June 1 this year. A variety of difficulties arose, including financing and CZ’s acquisition of an existing manufacturer in another state.
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The factory in Little Rock is no more, yes. Colt offers MUCH more in an already existing facility. I also would like to see big announcements from CZ, but I want to see the Scorpion in 10mm, the BREN being made in the US, and a sneaker of hey, guess what, we imported the BREN 2 BR anyway! But, economics and reality being what it is...I'll wait to hear what is going on.
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Some big changes at CZ USA this week.
Details?
Sorry that was vague. Trying to determine if the change is public or not.
Probably not
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Some big changes at CZ USA this week.
Do you have a link?
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Colt offers MUCH more in an already existing facility.
Don't agree with this. My understanding is that Colt's current tech vs cutting edge is equivalent to combloc versus western manufacturing at the fall of the berlin wall.
Effectively, Colt being heavily unionized and heavily underinvested in tech and machinery is ~20-30 years behind industry leaders like Aero, FN, and PSA in the AR15 world.
Couple that with CT's heavily anti-gun and far-left governance (like anti-gun laws AND egregious and unnecessary COVID shutdowns), then yes, per the OP's title, Colt could tank CZ...
I wasn't aware that AR was a non-starter. Beretta, for instance, already makes most of their new production handguns on the US market in Arkansas.
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Colt offers MUCH more in an already existing facility.
Don't agree with this. My understanding is that Colt's current tech vs cutting edge is equivalent to combloc versus western manufacturing at the fall of the berlin wall.
I love my combloc CZ75s-----------including the Made In Czechoslovakia markings.
Guess I don't care about cutting edge manufacturing when it comes to pistols.
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I hope CZ can turn things around with COLT. There is still millions to be made from Colt 1911's if Colt could just take their head out of their ass.
Colt dropped the ball not only in the 1911 market but later in the AR market. Out of their incompetence, emerged several 1911 and AR manufacturing companies that I believe would have never had a chance had Colt not been incompetent.
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Colt offers MUCH more in an already existing facility.
Don't agree with this. My understanding is that Colt's current tech vs cutting edge is equivalent to combloc versus western manufacturing at the fall of the berlin wall.
Effectively, Colt being heavily unionized and heavily underinvested in tech and machinery is ~20-30 years behind industry leaders like Aero, FN, and PSA in the AR15 world.
Couple that with CT's heavily anti-gun and far-left governance (like anti-gun laws AND egregious and unnecessary COVID shutdowns), then yes, per the OP's title, Colt could tank CZ...
I wasn't aware that AR was a non-starter. Beretta, for instance, already makes most of their new production handguns on the US market in Arkansas.
Yep! I agree. Colt is and has been completely out of touch with reality for decades. They dropped the ball when they US military switched to higher capacity modern pistols in the 80's with a failed rendition of the 1911. They continued making the same clunky junky models well into the era where now virtually everyone else has embraced the CCW market and has many variations of handguns to suit every need in that arena. Colt's answer to that is to reintroduce the snake guns which had a very rocky start and at a price point that's well above what the average shooter wants to spend.
I hope CZ knows what they've set themselves up for at this point.
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Maybe they sold off Colt, and can get back to their roots!
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I love my combloc CZ75s-----------including the Made In Czechoslovakia markings.
Guess I don't care about cutting edge manufacturing when it comes to pistols.
You're missing the point. Colt hasn't been profitable w/o government contracts and why so much of their pistol lineup, for instance, was no longer in current production when CZ bought them.
If you want either CZ or Colt or both to remain around and available, then they must modernize production to restore profitability and by extension long term company and product viability. Retrofitting existing facilities also often takes longer, is more expensive (for many reasons including likely temporarily shutting down or scaling back portions of existing production lines), and results in less ideal layouts, etc., than just building new.
AND in today's weird world, having the max number of CZ pistols produced domestically (which is most likely with new facility) means the greatest availability for the US market regardless of any European wars, dust ups, energy crises, etc.
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Yep! I agree. Colt is and has been completely out of touch with reality for decades. They dropped the ball when they US military switched to higher capacity modern pistols in the 80's with a failed rendition of the 1911. They continued making the same clunky junky models well into the era where now virtually everyone else has embraced the CCW market and has many variations of handguns to suit every need in that arena. Colt's answer to that is to reintroduce the snake guns which had a very rocky start and at a price point that's well above what the average shooter wants to spend.
I hope CZ knows what they've set themselves up for at this point.
Absolutely.
Also don't forget when Colt recently stopped sales of ARs to civilians... I also agree with the article below that it was Colt's failure to compete on price or innovation (effectively: "if it's good enough for the gov't, is should be good enough for everyone else"). And it also speaks to Colt's inability to scale manufacturing to demand... All of which are detrimental to profitability and long-term viability of the business.
https://13wham.com/colt-stopped-civilian-sales-of-the-ar-15-and-it-has-nothing-to-do-with-gun-control
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Sorry that was vague. Trying to determine if the change is public or not.
Well, we're all ears if it turns out you can share. ;)
As for Colt, I have to really wonder how many U.S. government/agency contracts they have at this point? A few decades ago it was certainly their bread and butter, but the market and agency needs have changed a lot during that time, while Colt's offerings haven't changed much at all. And certainly, ever since this acquisition happened, it is no easier to find Colt firearms these days than it was before (except for new revolvers), so it doesn't seem like their output has increased.
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Well, make it public!
Allow me to speculate:
“CZ reissues the Rami BD, optics ready with a light rail in 9mm and .30 Super Carry!”
“CZ fixes the Bren 2 gas issues and begins production of 6.5 Grendel barrels / conversion kits.”
“CZ fires Colt management and moves all production to Arkansas, selling old CT factory to shopping center developer.”
“CZ launches new pistol models and the Scorpion Evo 3 chambered interchangeably between .357 Sig, 10mm and 7.5 FK Brno!”
“CZ announces new magazines compatible with both the original Scorpion Evo 3 and 3 Plus!”
“CZ Announces that all spare parts are in-stock on the new, easy-to-use Webstore, and shall remain that way!”
A guy can dream…that CZ will pull its collective head out of its collective ass…
"CZ announces the DWX will be available for sale in 2 weeks."
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Sorry that was vague. Trying to determine if the change is public or not.
Well, we're all ears if it turns out you can share. ;)
As for Colt, I have to really wonder how many U.S. government/agency contracts they have at this point? A few decades ago it was certainly their bread and butter, but the market and agency needs have changed a lot during that time, while Colt's offerings haven't changed much at all. And certainly, ever since this acquisition happened, it is no easier to find Colt firearms these days than it was before (except for new revolvers), so it doesn't seem like their output has increased.
For what its worth, I am serving in the military at a training site and I have been seeing mostly FN M4 Carbines.
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For what its worth, I am serving in the military at a training site and I have been seeing mostly FN M4 Carbines.
Colt and FN split the 2018 and 2015 contracts.
FN alone won the 2020 contract.
2015 @ $212 million: https://www.guns.com/news/2015/09/28/colt-fn-win-212-million-army-m4-contract
2018 @ $180 million: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/11/14/us-army-orders-m4s/
2020 @ $120 million: https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/fn-america-lands-m4-contract-valued-at-nearly-120-million/
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Any update gang? Was this alluding to new forthcoming products, corporate change / move, etc. Thanks!
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"CZ announces the DWX will be available for sale in 2 weeks."
I am both laughing and crying at this. I can't remember the last time a pistol generated that much excitement without ever coming to fruition.
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It's a common occurrence with Sig Sauer.
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"CZ announces the DWX will be available for sale in 2 weeks."
I am both laughing and crying at this. I can't remember the last time a pistol generated that much excitement without ever coming to fruition.
I feel the same. I have not been as excited about a handgun as I was about the DWX in a LONG time. I really do not see myself making any new purchases in the future, unless that DWX comes to life.
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It's a common occurrence with Sig Sauer.
Yeah, it’s disturbing to see CZ more or less copying SIG’s malfeasance model these days.
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Except that Sig is actually cranking out new models at an impressive rate. One can debate whether every new Sig variation actually constitues a "new model" or not, but the fact is, Sig is selling the crap out of pistols these days. CZ is not doing that.
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CZ can survive without the US market given the contracts they have around the world and They've done it before. Sig meh nothing they've made recently interests me. You can only reinvent a pistol so much. Colt has flirted with bankruptcy so often they should share a bed.
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Yeah, for sure I'm not suggesting that CZ should follow Sig's model in my comment above. I think Sig has taken it to ridiculous extremes. But the CZ group seems in stasis right now.
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Except that Sig is actually cranking out new models at an impressive rate. One can debate whether every new Sig variation actually constitues a "new model" or not, but the fact is, Sig is selling the crap out of pistols these days. CZ is not doing that.
Sig may be continuously cranking out new models, but they have a nasty reputation for suddenly dropping parts and customer support on the previous models, leaving their customers in a lurch. For that reason alone, I would never buy another Sig product under the current management.
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Not sure how mods feel about referring to other CZ forums so I won't post link.
Word on the interwebs is that CZ is handing over all US operations over to Colt. Colt is taking over production in the US and laying off CZ-USA assembly workers.
P-10's won't be made in the US anymore.
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Not sure how mods feel about referring to other CZ forums so I won't post link.
Word on the interwebs is that CZ is handing over all US operations over to Colt. Colt is taking over production in the US and laying off CZ-USA assembly workers.
P-10's won't be made in the US anymore.
If that’s true, then CZ is committing brand suicide in the US and Colt / CZ USA will be bankrupt again in a couple of years.
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Except that Sig is actually cranking out new models at an impressive rate. One can debate whether every new Sig variation actually constitues a "new model" or not, but the fact is, Sig is selling the crap out of pistols these days. CZ is not doing that.
Sig may be continuously cranking out new models, but they have a nasty reputation for suddenly dropping parts and customer support on the previous models, leaving their customers in a lurch. For that reason alone, I would never buy another Sig product under the current management.
In my experience, sure, that has happened with some models that have been discontinued. But I've owned numerous Sigs for years, and have not experienced that with any of the Sigs I own - P229, P226, P220. I'm not sure how long one should reasonably expect a company to continue to support something they don't make any more - a few years?
Regardless, I'm not trying to make this about Sig, or about a comparison between the two brands. I was only pointing out that we really haven't seen much new from CZ (or Colt or DW) in quite a while. And while I'm sure there will be people who arew perfectly happy with what these brands already offer, and don't personally care if they release anything new, I don't think it's a realistic, sustainable business model to just keep churning out the same stuff year after year.
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Not sure how mods feel about referring to other CZ forums so I won't post link.
Word on the interwebs is that CZ is handing over all US operations over to Colt. Colt is taking over production in the US and laying off CZ-USA assembly workers.
P-10's won't be made in the US anymore.
If that is true I agree as well. That would possibly be the worst business decision that CZ could make.
If that’s true, then CZ is committing brand suicide in the US and Colt / CZ USA will be bankrupt again in a couple of years.
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Yep.
Just read a series of posts on another forum from a CZ USA employee. All production is headed to Colt.
Sounds like CZ USA in Kansas city is done.
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OK that stinks because I was born in KCK and that was part of the allure of CZ to me. If I recall they just opened up shop in KCK when I started looking to buy something. After I started researching I discovered they made terrific firearms.
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Yep.
Just read a series of posts on another forum from a CZ USA employee. All production is headed to Colt.
Sounds like CZ USA in Kansas city is done.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2F4e0483606392a81151f80256b6b4b143%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D7582357&f=1&nofb=1)
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I'm worried about quality control issues if Colt is taking over manufacturing :(
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Some big changes at CZ USA this week.
Details?
Sorry that was vague. Trying to determine if the change is public or not.
Is that with the reorganisation ( retrenching) of CZ USA Management and personal....
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Not sure how mods feel about referring to other CZ forums so I won't post link.
Word on the interwebs is that CZ is handing over all US operations over to Colt. Colt is taking over production in the US and laying off CZ-USA assembly workers.
P-10's won't be made in the US anymore.
If that’s true, then CZ is committing brand suicide in the US and Colt / CZ USA will be bankrupt again in a couple of years.
+1
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Yep. Just read a series of posts on another forum from a CZ USA employee. All production is headed to Colt.
Sounds like CZ USA in Kansas city is done.
+1
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FWIW, it looks like the source was Reddit and the user was deleted as well as the post -- which doesn't speak well to veracity of the claims: https://www.reddit.com/r/CZFirearms/comments/wlsf49/ex_czusa_employee_ama/
Read through comments and looks to be informed/legit, but can't see the original post in the thread.
If legit, main takeaways are KC factory is dead (so too is proposed AR factory) as are US-made P10s. Bren 2 is dead for US consumer market. Dan Wesson is likely to die. Scorpion 3+ may be dead. Colt in their CT factory is to do any/all US-assembly/modifications.
Stopped replying 7-8 hours ago (from timestamp of this post), so likely deleted around that time...
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Looks like someone reminded them that they signed an NDA with their employee handbook or some such.
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All of these rumors are truly troubling. I wish someone with a true inside connection, or even a CZ rep was on this forum. These speculated decisions make zero sense from a business outlook. Why would you spend the money on a failed company and have them keep running the show and even fully rely on them by shutting down a well established facility!? If this information it true though, that leaves my confidence in CZ-USA pretty depleted and questioning me staying with CZ as a customer. I am already highly disapointed in CZ's demise of their LE/MIL program. The excellent customer service keeps me hanging on, but if Colt screws that up, then some hard choices will be made for sure.
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These speculated decisions make zero sense from a business outlook. Why would you spend the money on a failed company and have them keep running the show and even fully rely on them by shutting down a well established facility!?
Until we actually get some truth from the people who actually know this truly is just speculation. To that one can only speculate as to why companies make such nonsensical decisions as is being discussed here.
Without mentioning names my wife is a statistician for a company here in the US that merged with a company in Germany a few years back. The German based corp. was in a situation much like Colt and yet the US based corp. went ahead and allowed the Germans to oversee much of the US based manufacturing and to say the least it has been a disaster. No one can explain the foolishness behind these decisions.
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These speculated decisions make zero sense from a business outlook. Why would you spend the money on a failed company and have them keep running the show and even fully rely on them by shutting down a well established facility!?
Until we actually get some truth from the people who actually know this truly is just speculation. To that one can only speculate as to why companies make such nonsensical decisions as is being discussed here.
Without mentioning names my wife is a statistician for a company here in the US that merged with a company in Germany a few years back. The German based corp. was in a situation much like Colt and yet the US based corp. went ahead and allowed the Germans to oversee much of the US based manufacturing and to say the least it has been a disaster. No one can explain the foolishness behind these decisions.
Yeah, but this rumor is just the kind of stupidest case scenario that’s become all too plausible these days.
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These speculated decisions make zero sense from a business outlook. Why would you spend the money on a failed company and have them keep running the show and even fully rely on them by shutting down a well established facility!?
Until we actually get some truth from the people who actually know this truly is just speculation. To that one can only speculate as to why companies make such nonsensical decisions as is being discussed here.
Without mentioning names my wife is a statistician for a company here in the US that merged with a company in Germany a few years back. The German based corp. was in a situation much like Colt and yet the US based corp. went ahead and allowed the Germans to oversee much of the US based manufacturing and to say the least it has been a disaster. No one can explain the foolishness behind these decisions.
Speculation from employee is that the Colt brand is held in such high regard in Europe that they didn't realize all of its boondoggles and relatively low regard held by the American consumer who has seen their dysfunction first-hand, hence the decline in the prestige of the brand.
For instance -- anyone remember the Colt-branded silver steel cased ammo produced by Russia's Barnaul a few years back?
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Speculation from employee is that the Colt brand is held in such high regard in Europe that they didn't realize all of its boondoggles and relatively low regard held by the American consumer who has seen their dysfunction first-hand, hence the decline in the prestige of the brand.
Interesting. That makes it sound like not even basic due diligence was not done. Which is particularly amazing, given that while CZ is obviously Euro-owned, they already had quite a few staff in the U.S. prior to the Colt acquisition, who could have given insight on the 'lay of the land,' so to speak.
I have not given up entirely on Colt, by any means. I'd say their QC has been hit-and-miss as of late, and I question how modernized their operations actually are, but I think they are still capable of making a quite good product, when they put their mind to it. But regardless of that, acquiring Colt and then turning the reigns over to them, when you already have a facility and staff in Kansas City, is a head-scratcher, to put it mildly.
And, as a long-time DW fan, I'm also increasingly concerned about what this all means for them as well.
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Speculation from employee is that the Colt brand is held in such high regard in Europe that they didn't realize all of its boondoggles and relatively low regard held by the American consumer who has seen their dysfunction first-hand, hence the decline in the prestige of the brand.
Interesting. That makes it sound like not even basic due diligence was not done. Which is particularly amazing, given that while CZ is obviously Euro-owned, they already had quite a few staff in the U.S. prior to the Colt acquisition, who could have given insight on the 'lay of the land,' so to speak.
I have not given up entirely on Colt, by any means. I'd say their QC has been hit-and-miss as of late, and I question how modernized their operations actually are, but I think they are still capable of making a quite good product, when they put their mind to it. But regardless of that, acquiring Colt and then turning the reigns over to them, when you already have a facility and staff in Kansas City, is a head-scratcher, to put it mildly.
And, as a long-time DW fan, I'm also increasingly concerned about what this all means for them as well.
The thread excepting the original post was still there w/ the alleged employee replying throughout when I posted the link earlier in this thread.
Alleged employee stated Colt thinks their 1911s are of similar quality to Dan Wesson's so thinks DW is going way of dinosaur...
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I hope this doesn't end up like what happened with Sears and K-Mart here in the US.
Sears was supposedly having financial trouble, decided to merge with K-Mart, who was doing well.
After the merger Sears was some how the entity in charge. Got rid of K-Mart upper management and used mid management to travel around and liquidate K-Mart stores around the country.
Where are all the Sears and K-Mart stores now??? Not too many around now, are there!
I can't help feeling that CZ and Colt are going down the same path.
The three-piece suits get theirs and move on. Hang the rest.
My wife worked at K-Mart for a very long time and we watched this all transpire before our eyes.
Nothing a common worker can do but shake their head and carry on.
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I loved Sears and K-Mart, I still have a Sears Kenmore washer and dryer that work fine with a few minor glitches. Hope CZ doesn't follow suit.
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I'm hoping much of what we're seeing can be attributable to a cultural difference. Typically, Czechs are more formal and polite than Americans.
Etiquette
Social interaction is not much different from that in other central European countries; compared to that in the United States, it is rather formal. This formality is in part caused by the Czech language, which has two forms of the second-person personal pronoun. The "familiar" form is used to address a member of the family, a good friend of long standing, or a child or by a child addressing another child. The "polite" form is used in more formal situations. It is not uncommon for colleagues of similar age in neighboring offices to use the formal form when talking with each other.
The tendency toward formal behavior is strengthened by the tradition of using titles. The use of someone's first name is limited to older family members addressing younger ones and to very good friends. It usually takes daily contact over a number of years before people are on a first-name basis. Much less informal contact reinforces the social distance between people. Because Czech apartments are small, invitations to visit and casual dropping by occur only among good friends.
…
–https://www.everyculture.com/Cr-Ga/Czech-Republic.html
In addition, after being taken for granted by Austria, tyrannized by Germany, then by the Soviet Union, I'm sure Czechs learned to avoid speaking freely in public.
A formal, polite, and restrained people are not likely to publicly proclaim Colt management to be buffoons.
Did CZ overpay for Colt? If they did that doesn't bode well for their future.
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I'm hoping much of what we're seeing can be attributable to a cultural difference. Typically, Czechs are more formal and polite than Americans.
Etiquette
Social interaction is not much different from that in other central European countries; compared to that in the United States, it is rather formal. This formality is in part caused by the Czech language, which has two forms of the second-person personal pronoun. The "familiar" form is used to address a member of the family, a good friend of long standing, or a child or by a child addressing another child. The "polite" form is used in more formal situations. It is not uncommon for colleagues of similar age in neighboring offices to use the formal form when talking with each other.
The tendency toward formal behavior is strengthened by the tradition of using titles. The use of someone's first name is limited to older family members addressing younger ones and to very good friends. It usually takes daily contact over a number of years before people are on a first-name basis. Much less informal contact reinforces the social distance between people. Because Czech apartments are small, invitations to visit and casual dropping by occur only among good friends.
…
–https://www.everyculture.com/Cr-Ga/Czech-Republic.html
In addition, after being taken for granted by Austria, tyrannized by Germany, then by the Soviet Union, I'm sure Czechs learned to avoid speaking freely in public.
A formal, polite, and restrained people are not likely to publicly proclaim Colt management to be buffoons.
Did CZ overpay for Colt? If they did that doesn't bode well for their future.
Well, the polite, urbane Czechs at CZ UB better wise up fast and find their balls before they get their lunch eaten by Colt’s incompetent management and heavily unionized employees manning Colt’s dilapidated obsolete factory — not to mention, the state of CT looking for the first excuse to sue them out of existence “because gun violence.”
It’s not looking good so far.
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I hope this doesn't end up like what happened with Sears and K-Mart here in the US.
Sears was supposedly having financial trouble, decided to merge with K-Mart, who was doing well.
After the merger Sears was some how the entity in charge. Got rid of K-Mart upper management and used mid management to travel around and liquidate K-Mart stores around the country.
Where are all the Sears and K-Mart stores now??? Not too many around now, are there!
I can't help feeling that CZ and Colt are going down the same path.
The three-piece suits get theirs and move on. Hang the rest.
My wife worked at K-Mart for a very long time and we watched this all transpire before our eyes.
Nothing a common worker can do but shake their head and carry on.
KMart>WalMart at the time IMO... Target really wasn't on the radar at the time. Also remember Sears opening up "hometown" or similarly named small-scale Sears stores shortly after the acquisition and KMart's first or second round of shutterings... EPIC mismanagement. Was never a huge fan of Sears Dept. stores (too young relative to my age; recall my Gma telling me that it was primary place my Gpa got his business suits though) other than their hand tool center, but much preferred and enjoyed KMart to alternatives.
Last KMart I was in was Killeen, Texas, circa 2010 or so. Last Sears I was in was San Antonio, Texas, circa 2018. Both locations are now closed.
I loved Sears and K-Mart, I still have a Sears Kenmore washer and dryer that work fine with a few minor glitches. Hope CZ doesn't follow suit.
Sears Kenmore are Whirlpool rebrands. Don't think it's a fair or appropriate comparison... FWIW, our washer and dryer are SK branded.
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Well, the polite, urbane Czechs at CZ UB better wise up fast and find their balls before they get their lunch eaten by Colt’s incompetent management and heavily unionized employees manning Colt’s dilapidated obsolete factory — not to mention, the state of CT looking for the first excuse to sue them out of existence “because gun violence.”
It’s not looking good so far.
Problem isn't the unionized employees, it's the lack of investment in modern machinery/updating the factory over the past few decades per my understanding. That rests w/ management, not employees.
Yes, being Northeast/CT-based is also a problem/liability, but I don't think having unionized employees is in and of itself as important of a concern, except in reference to nat'l security. As we're talking about private sector unions here, not public employee unions that are a fully protected class.
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I hope that CZ will bring Colt up and not that Colt will bring CZ down.
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I truly hope not. From a common sense point of view (which is lacking these days) a very successful company merged with a company (Colt) that failing in the general sense. Sure they had the Colt M4 govt contract thing, but really nothing else. The company was obviously ruined from the inside. So, one would hope CZ would squre things away and get them back to success.
I am probably missing some details. What examples do you have pointing to Colt bringing CZ down? For me personally, the demise of the CZ LE/MIL program is what has really hit me hard. When I first got into CZ, I could order guns direct from CZ (which I did many times) through their awesome MIL/LE department guys. I could reach out to them with any questions and they even took suggestions and had LE/MIL only stuff for purchase. The CZ webstore also had discounts for LE/MIL. They have pretty much wiped all of that out.
Colt didn't buy CZ.
They won't ruin anything.
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This thread is a trip...went back and read the entire thing. First off Colt, Dan Wesson and CZ are all ran as 3 separate Companies. CZ has stated this multiple times. Colt doesn't get a say in whether DW makes 1911s or not. If you really believe this, ask yourselves why has Colt been concentrating on making revolvers if they are going to kill off DW and build all the 1911s? Colt is trying to build Colt back up with a cash infusion from CZ.CZ does have a really high opinion of Colt. But if you think they are going to tank themselves to keep Colt mediocre you're nuts. As for the recent CZ discontinued models, other than the 97 and the Rammi you all should know CZ does this all the time and re releases the models under new sku numbers.
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Don’t know if I can link threads on different websites here, but there’s a pretty lively and troubling thread over in arfcom GD regarding Colt management actually taking over CZ USA (at least, not sure about CZ UB - yet). Looks pretty grim for CZ customers and aficionados…
Imagine CZ putting Colt, the multiple champions of bankruptcy, in charge of US operations…
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Don’t know if I can link threads on different websites here, but there’s a pretty lively and troubling thread over in arfcom GD regarding Colt management actually taking over CZ USA (at least, not sure about CZ UB - yet). Looks pretty grim for CZ customers and aficionados…
Imagine CZ putting Colt, the multiple champions of bankruptcy, in charge of US operations…
I'll admit that the CZ Group being renamed the Colt CZ Group is concerning. However, a look at CZG stock price — https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/czg?countrycode=cz — indicates investors seem pleased with the buyout (or merger?).
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Don’t know if I can link threads on different websites here, but there’s a pretty lively and troubling thread over in arfcom GD regarding Colt management actually taking over CZ USA (at least, not sure about CZ UB - yet). Looks pretty grim for CZ customers and aficionados…
Imagine CZ putting Colt, the multiple champions of bankruptcy, in charge of US operations…
I'll admit that the CZ Group being renamed the Colt CZ Group is concerning. However, a look at CZG stock price — https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/czg?countrycode=cz — indicates investors seem pleased with the buyout (or merger?).
Screw “the investors.” I’m a gun buyer, user and CZ aficionado.
“The Investors” don’t know or care jack squat about guns or the Second Amendment. “The investors” would only be too happy to send CZ to the corporate slaughter house for an extra buck short term. This Colt - CZ merger only sounds good to idiots who don’t know anything about the US gun industry and don’t realize that Colt is a rotten house of cards.
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Interestingly, the history of Colt Firearms, as told by Colt's website, is silent on the matter of being bought out by CZ last year:
https://www.colt.com/timeline (https://www.colt.com/timeline)
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Interestingly, the history of Colt Firearms, as told by Colt's website, is silent on the matter of being bought out by CZ last year:
https://www.colt.com/timeline (https://www.colt.com/timeline)
Well, this is the new Group Think at “Colt-CZ”:
Colt Management bought CZ…with CZ’s money. This is exactly what it’s shaping up to be.
CZ just paid big bucks for the privilege of being swallowed up by a diseased, dying whale that is Colt.
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Colt is not running CZ. Colt CZ group is the US portion of The CZ Group, which also includes Colt Canada - the name Colt is first due to name recognition, not because Colt is running CZ. CZ management is not being fired. The CZ group is still in restructuring. The Little Rock plant is DOA with the acquisition of Colt, and I don't know if the KC plant is still making P-10s or not. The P-10 series is NOT being discontinued, but some low sellers are, like the colored frames versions in many cases. Guns are discontinued for many reasons, mostly sales and since the P-10 series is selling very well, it won't be eliminated.
CZ is not committing suicide, and this confusion will be over as soon as they can get it done.
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Colt is not running CZ. Colt CZ group is the US portion of The CZ Group, which also includes Colt Canada - the name Colt is first due to name recognition, not because Colt is running CZ. CZ management is not being fired. The CZ group is still in restructuring. The Little Rock plant is DOA with the acquisition of Colt, and I don't know if the KC plant is still making P-10s or not. The P-10 series is NOT being discontinued, but some low sellers are, like the colored frames versions in many cases. Guns are discontinued for many reasons, mostly sales and since the P-10 series is selling very well, it won't be eliminated.
CZ is not committing suicide, and this confusion will be over as soon as they can get it done.
Right on cue…
Reading the thread on arfcom, there’s been a shake up in CZ’s management — not Colt’s. Seems more than plausible that Colt management is taking over US operations. Of course, Colt does have all the history and experience — of going bankrupt.
So, are we allowed to post links to other sites’ threads? I believe you posted to it…
https://www.coltczgroup.com/en/media-press-releases/colt-cz-group-se-changes-to-the-board-of-directors
Seems like yesterday, Alice was the “golden girl” at CZ…hope she got canned for cooking up this crazy Colt deal, but probably not.
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Not to sure how to take that "right on cue" remark, but whatever.
Alice left CZ-USA She was a very nice lady who really made CZ-USA into a powerhouse company from a little upstart nobody took seriously. I have no idea how much she was involved in the Colt deal, but I do believe she was heavily involved in the Dan Wesson acquisition.
I can't read your link from here, links to outside the country are banned here. Summary?
I have no idea what changes if any have happened at Colt since it became part of the CZ group.
Yes, I have posted to the Arf thread. Wanna see exactly what I posted?
Here it is, all three of them;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By 2W0X1:
Dang, guess I will never own a parrot
There is one at CZ Custom in Mesa AZ as of about a week ago.
CZ USA is not imploding, OP is incorrect.
Originally Posted By spork:
Does this mean the .308 Bren isn't coming?
That was decided over a year ago, unfortunately - I lusted over a BREN BR since I first saw one.
Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
I imagine without a jig you could acme/bubba the old mags: remove magcatch, insert mag, mark area then dremel out the new magcatch hole. Similar to converting uzi mags to colt pattern.
Still, I'd rather have a properly made jig
Get with CZ Custom in Mesa - they are making modified Scorp mags that fit both. They might be able to help.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is what I posted.
Perhaps you aren't aware that I am not an employee of nor paid by CZ-USA, that either my own money or donated funds run this site? CZ donates items to our gift givings, but there is no contract between us - this website is mine, not CZ-USA's. And the other thing is because I have been in charge of this website for well over a decade, I speak to higher ups at the company, conversations that are privy and I cannot refer to here, unless they tell me it is not privileged information. This is not due to any contract or legal binder, but because I respect them and their wishes. I am hoping sometime in the future all these issues will be resolved, not because I am depending on CZ-USA for anything, but because I want my favorite firearms manufacturer to grow and succeed. I am also hoping that they can rescue the famous brand of Colt, and make something great of them again, as well.
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Interestingly, the history of Colt Firearms, as told by Colt's website, is silent on the matter of being bought out by CZ last year:
https://www.colt.com/timeline (https://www.colt.com/timeline)
Well, this is the new Group Think at “Colt-CZ”:
Colt Management bought CZ…with CZ’s money. This is exactly what it’s shaping up to be.
CZ just paid big bucks for the privilege of being swallowed up by a diseased, dying whale that is Colt.
I'm not sure exactly what facts you have to make this conclusion. CZ bought a brand and manufacturing capacity, nothing else. The US is a very rapidly growing market for CZ and building a new factory is an expensive proposition.
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Here's the arfcom link: https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/If-you-want-a-CZ-firearm-GET-IT-NOW-/5-2583427/?page=1
BLUF -- nothing I see on that link or elsewhere disproves the theory/allegation that Colt is now in charge of CZ's us operations and CZ-USA has been deemed redundant. At least that aspect of the deal aligns with what one would expect w/ recent business school grads/now "consultants" advising on restructuring operations to maximize short-term value to shareholders, while neglecting long term operations. Remember that all publicly listed companies typically focus operations on maximum effect for the next quarter's SEC reports, not long term solvency/sustainability.
What I see in the discontinued list that's notable is:
- most of the customization options for trigger options (omega vs classic), colors, suppressor-ready, optics-ready, which means they're streamlining their product lines and which also usually happens during periods of declining profitability (and is status quo operation for Colt: "you get what you get and you don't throw a fit")
- all of the former "pistols" that will be no longer such under the BATF's new scorecard/arm brace rule -- the reason why is that not only will they require Form 1, but also domestic 922r conversion before sale
- which is also why carbine versions of Bren and Evo are also being discontinued
- CZ's suppressors are also discontinued, which is another NFA item -- because of forms, wait period, etc., selling NFA items to consumers is logistically challenging, so not optimally profitable
- And various models of rifles and shotguns that appear to have been tailored to the US market/consumer tastes and interests...
While I generally concur with MeatAxe's sentiments re: Colt-CZ and frustration with what appears to be legit "writing-on-the-wall", I still hold out hope it doesn't come to pass. And to be clear, I don't think CZ-USA's departing CEO was responsible for the parent CZ buying Colt, so don't agree w/ that below.
AM -- think it's important to distinguish between CZ-USA, CZ-UB, and Colt. My understanding is that CZ-USA was subsidiary of CZ-USA and existed primarily for rollmarking imports to BATF requirements, as well as any necessary conversions and warranty services. Colt is now to be filling that role and for all intents is now the face of CZ-UB for the American consumer.
CZ-UB still exists and technically Colt is a subsidiary; however, that may not be practically how this new conglomerate operates...
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I'm not sure exactly what facts you have to make this conclusion. CZ bought a brand and manufacturing capacity, nothing else. The US is a very rapidly growing market for CZ and building a new factory is an expensive proposition.
Did you read any of the reddit thread, barfcom article, CZ-USA discontinued items list, or the CZ-USA restructuring press release?
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I have been on this thread from the start and I have now gone through the ARFCOM one from start to current and this is pretty much a cluster. From what I see, there is lots of I heard this.....I heard that. I can only assume that the people that keep being referred to as inside sources ( ex CZ-USA employees) are legit sources. However, I would REALLY appreciate if someone actually with Colt-CZ Group (CZ-USA) would step up and actually give the public real information on what is going on. These rumors will continue to spread and evolve into pure insanity if they, CZ, do not put out real information.
I continue to hope all will end up well. I just got into CZ in 2016 and I went all in. I totally changed my handgun platform that I was invested in and have been very happy with that choice. However, I go all in on more than just the gun. I go all in on the company as a whole. I consider customer service, parts availability and LE/MIL program. So, far CZ-USA has had excellent customer service from my experience. Parts have been an issue in the past year and the LE/MIL program is no more. So, with that combined with all the rumors I am worried and really questioning staying invested in CZ is my primary platform. Hoping for the best though!
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Saw this on FB today. Losing faith...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220913/6dd8d58670b3c249381dd890d3f232d2.jpg)
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Saw this on FB today. Losing faith...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220913/6dd8d58670b3c249381dd890d3f232d2.jpg)
This is what started all these rumors on reddit. The OP deleted his account the following day after being questioned and not answering anything really. He did re activate his account this weekend to argue with me and a few other posters to only ignore more questions and delete his account again.
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Isn't CZ-USA hiring in Kansas City and New York currently?
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This is what started all these rumors on reddit. The OP deleted his account the following day after being questioned and not answering anything really. He did re activate his account this weekend to argue with me and a few other posters to only ignore more questions and delete his account again.
The proof in the pudding as far as “COLT-cz’s” master plan is who they’re going to hire to replace
Alice Poluchova, who recently “was resigned for personal reasons” from the Board. That’s straight from COLT cz’s press release, so that’s no BS. It seems strange to run Alice off, since she seemed to be such an up and comer, behind the brilliant acquisition of Dan Wesson, as I understand it, and CEO of CZ USA, which seemed to be doing a good job, aside from letting the Bren 2 wither on the vine, which would seem to be CZ UB’s fault.
https://www.coltczgroup.com/en/media-press-releases/colt-cz-group-se-changes-to-the-board-of-directors
We’ll know if the fix is in for a COLT cz fluster cluck if they bring on one of their usual career bankruptcy clowns from Colt to replace her and move all US operations up to Dolt — I mean “Colt”!
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The proof in the pudding as far as “COLT-cz’s” master plan is who they’re going to hire to replace
Alice Poluchova, who recently “was resigned for personal reasons” from the Board. That’s straight from COLT cz’s press release, so that’s no BS. It seems strange to run Alice off, since she seemed to be such an up and comer, behind the brilliant acquisition of Dan Wesson, as I understand it, and CEO of CZ USA, which seemed to be doing a good job, aside from letting the Bren 2 wither on the vine, which would seem to be CZ UB’s fault.
https://www.coltczgroup.com/en/media-press-releases/colt-cz-group-se-changes-to-the-board-of-directors
We’ll know if the fix is in for a COLT cz fluster cluck if they bring on one of their usual career bankruptcy clowns from Colt to replace her and move all US operations up to Dolt — I mean “Colt”!
Everything I've seen indicates that CZ-USA is now a subsidiary of Colt, and Colt a subsidiary of CZ-UB... So long as nothing changes on that front, then I guess that's the best we can hope for. That does mean Colt doing US conversions, warranty, etc., work on CZ guns in the USA.
Where alarm bells would really ring for me is would be if Colt starts meddling in CZ-UB's operations.
BUT the US was 51% of CZ-UB's revenues in 2019 and 66% in 2020 per their annual report at the following link, so -- so goes the USA, so goes CZ-UB...
https://cdn.czg.cz/docs/CZG-annual-report-2020-12-31.pdf
So if things go south w/ this deal and merger, they may need one of the "usual career bankruptcy clowns from Colt" to survive, even if just as a dead man walking, like Colt's been for years...
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The proof in the pudding as far as “COLT-cz’s” master plan is who they’re going to hire to replace
Alice Poluchova, who recently “was resigned for personal reasons” from the Board. That’s straight from COLT cz’s press release, so that’s no BS. It seems strange to run Alice off, since she seemed to be such an up and comer, behind the brilliant acquisition of Dan Wesson, as I understand it, and CEO of CZ USA, which seemed to be doing a good job, aside from letting the Bren 2 wither on the vine, which would seem to be CZ UB’s fault.
https://www.coltczgroup.com/en/media-press-releases/colt-cz-group-se-changes-to-the-board-of-directors
We’ll know if the fix is in for a COLT cz fluster cluck if they bring on one of their usual career bankruptcy clowns from Colt to replace her and move all US operations up to Dolt — I mean “Colt”!
Everything I've seen indicates that CZ-USA is now a subsidiary of Colt, and Colt a subsidiary of CZ-UB... So long as nothing changes on that front, then I guess that's the best we can hope for. That does mean Colt doing US conversions, warranty, etc., work on CZ guns in the USA.
Where alarm bells would really ring for me is would be if Colt starts meddling in CZ-UB's operations.
BUT the US was 51% of CZ-UB's revenues in 2019 and 66% in 2020 per their annual report at the following link, so -- so goes the USA, so goes CZ-UB...
https://cdn.czg.cz/docs/CZG-annual-report-2020-12-31.pdf
So if things go south w/ this deal and merger, they may need one of the "usual career bankruptcy clowns from Colt" to survive, even if just as a dead man walking, like Colt's been for years...
Wow! Well that’s interesting! Though I assumed that the USA civilian gun market was CZ’s biggest single “customer”, I had no idea that we were 66% of CZ’s business total — which makes it all the more absurd that CZ is going to put multi-bankrupted Colt in charge of US operations. CZ UB also has no excuses for the whole x39 Bren 2 FTE debacle, how they totally dropped the ball on taking advantage of the huge interest and popularity of the Bren, failing to provide such parts and service!
It looks to me like CZ UB has hired some hot-shot MBAs, with “better ideas” to totally pooch screw themselves.
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.
So, am I the only member here that isn't losing sleep over this???
I have much more firearms related concerns to worry about, MUCH MORE. Plus I learned this nice little trick years ago-------------
(https://i.imgur.com/oLpj1Zi.jpg?1)
My Gawd, it is like the end of the world as we know it and that is coming from someone the might (or might not) own five CZ pistols.
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.
So, am I the only member here that isn't losing sleep over this???
I have much more firearms related concerns to worry about, MUCH MORE. Plus I learned this nice little trick years ago-------------
(https://i.imgur.com/oLpj1Zi.jpg?1)
My Gawd, it is like the end of the world as we know it and that is coming from someone the might (or might not) own five CZ pistols.
Losing sleep? Hardly. This is a CZ discussion forum, one might expect to find enthusiasts here... concerned about the brand. Maybe you should find your own paper bag.
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.
So, am I the only member here that isn't losing sleep over this???
I have much more firearms related concerns to worry about, MUCH MORE. Plus I learned this nice little trick years ago-------------
(https://i.imgur.com/oLpj1Zi.jpg?1)
My Gawd, it is like the end of the world as we know it and that is coming from someone the might (or might not) own five CZ pistols.
Amateur!!! I have five CZ pistols of the exact same model (Rami BD)!!! And that’s just for starters.
Obviously, you’re not one of The Defenders of The Realm, as we are, so you wouldn’t understand…probably just a Glocktard, anyway…🥸
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Obviously, you’re not one of The Defenders of The Realm, as we are, so you wouldn’t understand…probably just a Glocktard, anyway…🥸
I'll see no more of this in the thread. Meataxe, you know better.
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Regardless of what CZUB is doing and who is running the US operations. We have no say or control of the decisions that are made. Until we get an official statement from CZUB all this speculation is just that speculation. There is no sense in getting upset, bad mouthing the brand, or resorting to name calling for those that are not on the bandwagon of this perceived "fluster cluck".
Honestly I hope that CZ can pull Colt up and make it a brand that is revered for it's history and quality product. Only time will tell. After all it is an american icon.
I'm sure that there is much still left to do with the acquisition and given the current world affairs with CZUB's close neighbor, it's probably going to take more time than anticipated. I imagine that CZUB is distracted or even refocused operations to support military contracts at the moment.
Cheers,
Toby
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Spot on tdogg.
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+1 tdogg
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Regardless of what CZUB is doing and who is running the US operations. We have no say or control of the decisions that are made. Until we get an official statement from CZUB all this speculation is just that speculation. There is no sense in getting upset, bad mouthing the brand, or resorting to name calling for those that are not on the bandwagon of this perceived "fluster cluck".
Honestly I hope that CZ can pull Colt up and make it a brand that is revered for it's history and quality product. Only time will tell. After all it is an american icon.
I'm sure that there is much still left to do with the acquisition and given the current world affairs with CZUB's close neighbor, it's probably going to take more time than anticipated. I imagine that CZUB is distracted or even refocused operations to support military contracts at the moment.
Cheers,
Toby
I totally disagree. One of the great things about Internet forums is that they allow the customers to express their desires, likes and dislikes about what a given company is doing. If said company is smart, they’re going to listen to their customers. If they’re stupid, as Colt has been for decades, they’re going to shut their ears to their customer base and instead plug into the echo chamber of board members and “expert” MBAs. That’s why Colt has been in a perpetual state of bankruptcy, alienating the huge US civilian market. Colt can’t even hang onto their supposed “bread and butter” military contracts. As has been mentioned, Colt’s attitude towards its customers is as arrogant as it is stupid: “shut your mouth and take what we give you, like a good little fan boy” with the predictable results (multiple bankruptcy). Unfortunately, these same people are still in charge at Colt, and it looks like CZ UB is going to put them in charge of all “COLT cz” operations in the US, which is their largest market, actually now a 66% chunk of their entire world market. This doesn’t bode well.
I really don’t give a bleep about Colt, as far as I see it, their only value is the trademark and name recognition by people who don’t know any better. Colt doesn’t make any products that I’d buy and they’ve steadfastly refused to innovate, or when they have tried to “innovate” they’ve churned out some massive duds, by totally misjudging the market and/or horrible execution and quality control.
However, I HOPE CZ is listening to their customers, as they seem to have in the past, but not so much in the present. They turn a deaf ear to their customer base at their own peril.
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I totally disagree. One of the great things about Internet forums is that they allow the customers to express their desires, likes and dislikes about what a given company is doing. If said company is smart, they’re going to listen to their customers. If they’re stupid, as Colt has been for decades, they’re going to shut their ears to their customer base and instead plug into the echo chamber of board members and “expert” MBAs. That’s why Colt has been in a perpetual state of bankruptcy, alienating the huge US civilian market. Colt can’t even hang onto their supposed “bread and butter” military contracts. As has been mentioned, Colt’s attitude towards its customers is as arrogant as it is stupid: “shut your mouth and take what we give you, like a good little fan boy” with the predictable results (multiple bankruptcy). Unfortunately, these same people are still in charge at Colt, and it looks like CZ UB is going to put them in charge of all “COLT cz” operations in the US, which is their largest market, actually now a 66% chunk of their entire world market. This doesn’t bode well.
I really don’t give a bleep about Colt, as far as I see it, their only value is the trademark and name recognition by people who don’t know any better. Colt doesn’t make any products that I’d buy and they’ve steadfastly refused to innovate, or when they have tried to “innovate” they’ve churned out some massive duds, by totally misjudging the market and/or horrible execution and quality control.
However, I HOPE CZ is listening to their customers, as they seem to have in the past, but not so much in the present. They turn a deaf ear to their customer base at their own peril.
First and foremost, I'd encourage everyone to review this marketing slide deck from Feb 2021 (and realize it's spin to the extent allowed under financial law): https://cdn.czg.cz/docs/CZG_Corporate_Introduction_final_CS_KB_16022021_v2.pdf
Main takeaway on my end is that 1) CZ more than tripled their debt to buy Colt, 2) existing debt and probably this new debt as well appears to variable rate per the 2020 report (anyone remember the variable rate subprime mortgage crisis of the Obama years where buyers who should have been unqualified lost their homes? -- and remember we're in a rising interest rate environment), 3) their production facilities are overwhelmingly in Europe -- Czech Republic, Germany, and Sweden -- and 4) their shotguns are produced in Turkey, which I didn't realize.
And BLUF: from my perspective is that CZ-UB rolled the dice and decided to buy Colt as a gambit. The problem though is that Colt has a very different business model with expensive materials, labor, and real estate, while CZ-UB had cheap materials, labor, and real estate... And now given the Ukraine war and Russian sanctions, CZ is not only cut off from cheap materials from Russia, but also is facing skyrocketing energy costs in both the Czech Republic and Germany... In fact, the Czech's now have the most expensive electricity costs in Europe AND many European metals manufacturers/smelters are ceasing operations due to energy costs multiples of retail products of refined metals... Sweden is less affected than the CR or Germany, but also feeling the pinch.
Meataxe: Honestly, the only interest I have in Colt is Canada's Diemaco, which to date, they've refused to offer in the US.
Tdogg: Many of us have seen this game before, and know that it usually goes badly. Granted there are now geopolitical events that are exacerbating the albatross that is Colt, but even then -- anyone in the firearms industry for any length of time would also tell you the price inflation and firearms buying frenzy that followed Biden's "coronation" is par for the course and unsustainable long-term -- it was roughly a 50% jump in US sales revenues in 1 year, and CZ's slide deck above appears to be advertising it as not only sustainable but indicative of future growth potential... That's nuts!
To be clear, I do appreciate your comment and perspective, but for anyone who knows finance bros/B-school grads or has worked for a company in the modern mergers & acquisitions era in the process of M&A, knows that this is a shell game to extract value for shareholders regardless of detriment to underlying businesses tends to go badly long-term (financial pros/bros are only interested in quarterly reports). And we just saw this exact same thing domestically with the bankruptcy of Freedom Group -- Remington, Tapco, Para, Barnes, etc. -- owned by Cerebus Capital Management...
So it's most certainly informed concern, and nothing that any of us CZ enthusiasts here are wishing or take any pleasure in sharing, but it is reality. Do with this info what you may.
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Regardless of what CZUB is doing and who is running the US operations. We have no say or control of the decisions that are made. Until we get an official statement from CZUB all this speculation is just that speculation. There is no sense in getting upset, bad mouthing the brand, or resorting to name calling for those that are not on the bandwagon of this perceived "fluster cluck".
Honestly I hope that CZ can pull Colt up and make it a brand that is revered for it's history and quality product. Only time will tell. After all it is an american icon.
I'm sure that there is much still left to do with the acquisition and given the current world affairs with CZUB's close neighbor, it's probably going to take more time than anticipated. I imagine that CZUB is distracted or even refocused operations to support military contracts at the moment.
Cheers,
Toby
I totally disagree. One of the great things about Internet forums is that they allow the customers to express their desires, likes and dislikes about what a given company is doing. If said company is smart, they’re going to listen to their customers. If they’re stupid, as Colt has been for decades, they’re going to shut their ears to their customer base and instead plug into the echo chamber of board members and “expert” MBAs. That’s why Colt has been in a perpetual state of bankruptcy, alienating the huge US civilian market. Colt can’t even hang onto their supposed “bread and butter” military contracts. As has been mentioned, Colt’s attitude towards its customers is as arrogant as it is stupid: “shut your mouth and take what we give you, like a good little fan boy” with the predictable results (multiple bankruptcy). Unfortunately, these same people are still in charge at Colt, and it looks like CZ UB is going to put them in charge of all “COLT cz” operations in the US, which is their largest market, actually now a 66% chunk of their entire world market. This doesn’t bode well.
I really don’t give a bleep about Colt, as far as I see it, their only value is the trademark and name recognition by people who don’t know any better. Colt doesn’t make any products that I’d buy and they’ve steadfastly refused to innovate, or when they have tried to “innovate” they’ve churned out some massive duds, by totally misjudging the market and/or horrible execution and quality control.
However, I HOPE CZ is listening to their customers, as they seem to have in the past, but not so much in the present. They turn a deaf ear to their customer base at their own peril.
I agree with this.
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I totally disagree. One of the great things about Internet forums is that they allow the customers to express their desires, likes and dislikes about what a given company is doing. If said company is smart, they’re going to listen to their customers. If they’re stupid, as Colt has been for decades, they’re going to shut their ears to their customer base and instead plug into the echo chamber of board members and “expert” MBAs. That’s why Colt has been in a perpetual state of bankruptcy, alienating the huge US civilian market. Colt can’t even hang onto their supposed “bread and butter” military contracts. As has been mentioned, Colt’s attitude towards its customers is as arrogant as it is stupid: “shut your mouth and take what we give you, like a good little fan boy” with the predictable results (multiple bankruptcy). Unfortunately, these same people are still in charge at Colt, and it looks like CZ UB is going to put them in charge of all “COLT cz” operations in the US, which is their largest market, actually now a 66% chunk of their entire world market. This doesn’t bode well.
I really don’t give a bleep about Colt, as far as I see it, their only value is the trademark and name recognition by people who don’t know any better. Colt doesn’t make any products that I’d buy and they’ve steadfastly refused to innovate, or when they have tried to “innovate” they’ve churned out some massive duds, by totally misjudging the market and/or horrible execution and quality control.
However, I HOPE CZ is listening to their customers, as they seem to have in the past, but not so much in the present. They turn a deaf ear to their customer base at their own peril.
But your voicing your concern over an internet rumor at this point. How about we wait till the organization of CZUB/Colt/CZUSA is announced? You might be working yourself up over nothing. I'm all for CZ making good business decisions and staying solvent! I'd hate for them to go belly up especially if it was a result of the Colt acquisition. I'm a fanboy as well.
I'd be shocked if anyone at CZUB is paying attention to this forum at all. If they were, wouldn't they want an official spokes person to share news? It seems this forum is a target rich audience and they could drum up excitement for new offerings. CZUSA may be more likely to pay attention but I don't think they have much influence on the brand.
Cheers,
Toby
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CZUSA may be more likely to pay attention but I don't think they have much influence on the brand.
If half of CZ's sales funnel thru CZ-USA, CZ-USA would have significant influence on an enlightened parent company.
I live in the suburbs east of Seattle. When I bought my CZs in 2012 there was no gun shop on the entire Eastside that stocked any CZ. I finally found a shop that had a supplier that would ship them the CZ 83 I wanted. The other three CZs I bought that year I found after diligently and patiently searching the internet.
Seven years later I had my Beretta Tomcat shipped to a nearby gunshop/indoor range/training center. This facility, a gathering place for Glock worshippers, could not order a CZ for me in 2012, but in 2019 had CZs in stock, including a Shadow 2.
CZ's significant penetration of the US market in such a short span of time cannot be soley attributed to the gun marketing skills of the natural-born British East African or Dark Brandon. Someone at CZ-USA was doing something right, while at the same time folks at Colt Holding were screwing up.
As CZ fans we have a right, perhaps even a duty, to air concerns about the management of our favorite firearms manufacturer. Sitting back and waiting for bad decisions to be made, so we can punish such decisions by withholding our gun-buying dollars, is a passive-aggressive and reactionary strategy.
RSR points out interesting and relevant economic realities. In retrospect, the decision to buy Colt last year looks good only in comparison to a decision to buy Twitter this year.
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If half of CZ's sales funnel thru CZ-USA, CZ-USA would have significant influence on an enlightened parent company.
The US being one-half of CZ-UB's revenues was pre-Colt acquisition FWIW... So that share has almost certainly hugely risen for the parent company -- I'd guess ~85% is now US consumer or Colt sales. Probably in the sllde deck I shared if you want to dig into it.
Further, the US spends more on defense than the next 9 countries (2-10) combined. Just like w/ Colt, consumers will now be second fiddle to military and LE pursuits. Which is why they're removing options from their (CZ) catalog that appeal to the American consumer IMO.
https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/06/the-united-states-spends-more-on-defense-than-the-next-9-countries-combined
Want certain colors, optics ready, suppressor ready, etc., guns -- no soup for you!
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If half of CZ's sales funnel thru CZ-USA, CZ-USA would have significant influence on an enlightened parent company.
The US being one-half of CZ-UB's revenues was pre-Colt acquisition FWIW... So that share has almost certainly hugely risen for the parent company …
And, of those pre-Colt US sales, I'll guess close to 0% were to military and LE. The civilian market was the target market for CZ. Seems a mistake to abandon your core market. The Colt acquisition should, in my opinion, best be viewed as an opportunity to expand the CZG market in the US, not switch it.
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I would seriously question how many MIL/Agency contracts Colt still has at this point (in the U.S.). I think they have lost a lot of their market share in this area over the past decade or so, but the perception persists that they are a "big player" in the contract world. I don't think they really are anymore.
On the flip side, what Colt offers the public is of pretty limited appeal in the year 2022. Not that many are still buying 1911s and higher-end production revolvers. I'm in that group that does buy them, but I realize my interests are definitely a minority of the gun-buying public these days.
CZ offers MUCH more variety for the U.S. civilian gun buyer these days than Colt does.
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There is only one more "CZ" that I want, and that is the DWX. If they ever decide to build them they will sell like hotcakes.
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First and foremost, I'd encourage everyone to review this marketing slide deck from Feb 2021 (and realize it's spin to the extent allowed under financial law): https://cdn.czg.cz/docs/CZG_Corporate_Introduction_final_CS_KB_16022021_v2.pdf
Main takeaway on my end is that 1) CZ more than tripled their debt to buy Colt, 2) existing debt and probably this new debt as well appears to variable rate per the 2020 report (anyone remember the variable rate subprime mortgage crisis of the Obama years where buyers who should have been unqualified lost their homes? -- and remember we're in a rising interest rate environment), 3) their production facilities are overwhelmingly in Europe -- Czech Republic, Germany, and Sweden -- and 4) their shotguns are produced in Turkey, which I didn't realize.
And BLUF: from my perspective is that CZ-UB rolled the dice and decided to buy Colt as a gambit. The problem though is that Colt has a very different business model with expensive materials, labor, and real estate, while CZ-UB had cheap materials, labor, and real estate... And now given the Ukraine war and Russian sanctions, CZ is not only cut off from cheap materials from Russia, but also is facing skyrocketing energy costs in both the Czech Republic and Germany... In fact, the Czech's now have the most expensive electricity costs in Europe AND many European metals manufacturers/smelters are ceasing operations due to energy costs multiples of retail products of refined metals... Sweden is less affected than the CR or Germany, but also feeling the pinch.
Meataxe: Honestly, the only interest I have in Colt is Canada's Diemaco, which to date, they've refused to offer in the US.
Tdogg: Many of us have seen this game before, and know that it usually goes badly. Granted there are now geopolitical events that are exacerbating the albatross that is Colt, but even then -- anyone in the firearms industry for any length of time would also tell you the price inflation and firearms buying frenzy that followed Biden's "coronation" is par for the course and unsustainable long-term -- it was roughly a 50% jump in US sales revenues in 1 year, and CZ's slide deck above appears to be advertising it as not only sustainable but indicative of future growth potential... That's nuts!
To be clear, I do appreciate your comment and perspective, but for anyone who knows finance bros/B-school grads or has worked for a company in the modern mergers & acquisitions era in the process of M&A, knows that this is a shell game to extract value for shareholders regardless of detriment to underlying businesses tends to go badly long-term (financial pros/bros are only interested in quarterly reports). And we just saw this exact same thing domestically with the bankruptcy of Freedom Group -- Remington, Tapco, Para, Barnes, etc. -- owned by Cerebus Capital Management...
So it's most certainly informed concern, and nothing that any of us CZ enthusiasts here are wishing or take any pleasure in sharing, but it is reality. Do with this info what you may.
Thanks for that info! Interesting…and sobering. I hope CZ can digest this large Colt acquisition cost, with its obsolete production facilities, but (probably) high cost real estate. It’s too bad CZ didn’t just acquire the name and trademark at relatively low cost, like Armalite, Springfield Armory, etc.
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If half of CZ's sales funnel thru CZ-USA, CZ-USA would have significant influence on an enlightened parent company.
The US being one-half of CZ-UB's revenues was pre-Colt acquisition FWIW... So that share has almost certainly hugely risen for the parent company -- I'd guess ~85% is now US consumer or Colt sales. Probably in the sllde deck I shared if you want to dig into it.
Further, the US spends more on defense than the next 9 countries (2-10) combined. Just like w/ Colt, consumers will now be second fiddle to military and LE pursuits. Which is why they're removing options from their (CZ) catalog that appeal to the American consumer IMO.
https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/06/the-united-states-spends-more-on-defense-than-the-next-9-countries-combined
Want certain colors, optics ready, suppressor ready, etc., guns -- no soup for you!
Unfortunately, in comparison to its big budget / high tech weapons systems, the US Military doesn’t spend much on small arms, other than periodic “trials” which go nowhere. Otherwise, they’d have done away with the M16 / M4 and 5.56 caliber a long time ago in favor of something better. It’s taken them 60 years to (more or less) “perfect” the M16, which is still way less than perfect IMO, especially in this day and age.
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Unfortunately, in comparison to its big budget / high tech weapons systems, the US Military doesn’t spend much on small arms, other than periodic “trials” which go nowhere. Otherwise, they’d have done away with the M16 / M4 and 5.56 caliber a long time ago in favor of something better. It’s taken them 60 years to (more or less) “perfect” the M16, which is still way less than perfect IMO, especially in this day and age.
Colt's got a fair bit of business repairing and replacing M4/M16 variants during the GWOT.
But, the US Army awarded its NGW/NGSW to Sig this year: https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3005746/army-announces-2-new-rifles-for-close-combat-soldiers/
That appears to be more of a frontline or infantry-specific weapon, with the M4 to remain in service for other troops however. It's also not a NATO standard weapon as of yet.
Last contract I see for Colt was in 2020, which they split w/ FN for foreign military sales: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/colt-and-fn-land-foreign-department-of-defense-contract/
This is a solid article on acquisition and plans -- main takeaway for me is that they plan additional mergers and acquisitions in order to "grow": https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/czech-gunmaker-bets-riding-colt-into-new-markets-2021-09-13/
Colt, with plants in the United States and Canada, will give CZG the capacity to expand production beyond its main factory in the Czech Republic and allow it to compete in U.S. military contracts because it will fulfil "Buy America" regulations requiring U.S. production.
CZG says it aims to almost double CZG and Colt's pro-forma combined revenue of around $570 million last year within a few years - putting it on a par with Smith & Wesson's annual net sales of $1.1 billion in the last fiscal year.
In 2020, the United States accounted for 66% of the Czech gunmaker's annual revenue, mainly sales to individuals and police departments of guns under its CZ (Ceska Zbrojovka), Dan Wesson and Brno Rifles brands.
"Colt is an important step in realising our vision of getting to 1 billion (euros) in revenue by the end of 2025," CZG's Chairman Jan Drahota told Reuters in an interview at the company's Prague headquarters.
Some of the pressure could come from investors. The revenue target looks ambitious to some analysts and will require investment by CZG, whose roots stretch back to before World War II.
"It is definitely an ambitious goal," said Pavel Ryska, analyst at J&T Banka in Prague. "In my view, it could be met on two conditions. First, the U.S. civilian demand remains robust and keeps rising, and second, CZG adds further production capacity either through its own capex or through additional acquisitions that are well executed.
Founded by Samuel Colt, the U.S. company produced one of the first revolvers and its single-action revolver known as “The Peacemaker” was synonymous with lawmen and outlaws in the Wild West in the 19th century. By 2015, however, the company was filing for bankruptcy protection following a series of missteps and the loss of a key contract with the U.S. Army."
UNDERINVESTMENT
CZG, which used IPO proceeds and issued bonds to help finance the Colt deal, will outline investment plans later this year. They will include possibly introducing new products and investing in upgrades at Colt's main factory in West Hartford, Connecticut, Drahota said.
Upgrades will also mean "essentially an enlargement of capacity because of underinvestment in the past," he said.
CZG is also considering whether to produce some CZG products in the United States, he said, adding there is little overlap with Colt products.
"We have to consider from a group level what ... the production split will be at each location," he said. "One plus one is more than two. We believe we can leverage on each other's success."
About half of Colt's revenues in 2020 came from the massive U.S. military and law enforcement (M&LE) segment and Drahota said he saw "huge room" to grow the brand in global civilian and M&LE markets.
Analysts at Czech-based Fio Banka estimate the military and law enforcement portion of CZG's North American sales will climb to 50% from 10% with the Colt acquisition, boosting the company's revenue as M&LE firearms fall into higher price categories.
Global demand for small firearms is expected to rise from around 1.09 billion units in 2019 to 1.26 billion units in 2023, CZG said in its annual report, citing the BIS Small Arms Market Report, with the civilian market now accounting for 62% of sales and military and law enforcement 38%.
CZG, whose operating profit rose 12% last year, has until now mainly competed with European groups like FN Herstal of Belgium, Beretta of Italy and Glock Gesellschaft of Austria and struck deals last year with the Czech Army and law enforcement bodies in Brazil and Kenya, as well as contracts to help rearm Hungary's army.
Buying Colt will also give it exposure to the UK and Canadian militaries, among others, and Drahota said the market will continue to shift to more advanced weapons as demanded by military customers. CZG, which last year took a minority stake in Spuhr i Dalby AB, a Swedish maker of optical mounting solutions for weapons, would also look at further acquisitions, especially in areas like optics or optoelectronics.
"We want to grow by acquisitions but we will be disciplined," Drahota said.
And here's their press release on Q1 2022 results:
Prague (26 May 2022) ? Colt CZ Group SE (“Colt CZ, the “Group” or the “Company”) today announced its consolidated unaudited financial results for the first three months of 2022 ending 31 March.
Q1 2022 Financial Highlights: https://www.coltczgroup.com/en/media-press-releases/colt-cz-group-se-increased-its-ebitda-by-120-in-the-first-quarter-of-2022
? The Group’s revenues in the first three months of 2022 amounted to CZK 3.5 billion, up by 74.7% y-o-y, mainly due to higher sales volume in all regions and consolidation of Colt’s revenue.
? EBITDA reached CZK 954.7 million, up by 120.0% y-o-y for the first quarter of 2022.[1]
? Operating profit in the first three months of 2022 was CZK 749.3 million, up by 123.7% compared to the first three months of 2021.
? Net profit for the first three months of 2022 reached CZK 544.7 million, which is 97.6% more compared to the same period in 2022.
? The number of firearms sold in the first quarter of 2022 increased by 46.1% compared to the same period in 2021, exceeding 200 thousand units sold.
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MAC reviews Colt's M5:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnLtgCfvPXg
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CZ doesn’t seem ruined yet, at least per the above financials.
JGW
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CZ doesn’t seem ruined yet, at least per the above financials.
JGW
Would encourage you to read the latest financial postings that went public after this thread started.
https://www.coltczgroup.com/en/investors-financial-results-and-presentations/
They've massively increased dividends (pulling capital out of the company) by 230% vs 2021, massively increased debt by over 3 times due to M&A (not just Colt, but starting there -- more revenues now must service greater debt, not grow the group), and energy costs are projected to explode by over three times this year vs 2021 to nearly 6 times 2021's costs in 2023 (effectively doubling again next year) -- part of this is undoubtedly due to projected growth, but going from 70M CZK to 240M CZK to 450 CZK is alarming. That's just for starters, and who will be able to buy guns when their basic bills are exploding no doubt also leading to an economic recession to depression, as CZ's own energy projections detail?
Bottom line, there's a lot of aggressive gambling going on here by modern B school grads, and they'll either prove to be 1) fortuitous "geniuses" or 2) complete and utter failures whose mistaken strategy/mismanagement destroyed many if not all of the legendary firearms companies their highly aggressive merger and acquisition strategy will ultimately lead them to acquire. Given the highly cyclic and highly regulated nature of the global firearms markets, it's almost exclusively been option #2 in recent history... Again, Freedom Group is one of the most recent and prominent examples.
And this from their September semi-annual report foreshadows what I'm referencing:
Operating units in North America, specifically in the US and Canada, have not been directly impacted
by the Russian invasion of Ukraine. However, combined with the growing inflationary pressures in
the US and the Federal Reserve’s interest rate hike in June 2022 and the continuing effects of the
Covid-19 pandemic on the supply chain, the Company has noted a slowdown of its growth on the US
commercial market.
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It’s been 32 years since my BBA in Finance, and 31 years since I realized I really didn’t learn much so decided to “start over” by going to law school. I stopped pretending to have insight into a company via financials (other than completely obvious, which of course doesn’t require insight). I have no idea if Colt will be good or bad for CZ, or whether CZ will be good or bad for Colt.
As a proud American, I hope that CZ will save and resurrect Colt to be a preeminent designer and manufacturer again. If any company can do it, it is CZ.
As a great admirer of CZ, I hope that Colt will be good for CZ, and won’t hurt, but if any company could hurt CZ its Colt.
I’m not worried about CZ though.
JGW
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As a proud American, I hope that CZ will save and resurrect Colt to be a preeminent designer and manufacturer again. If any company can do it, it is CZ.
As a great admirer of CZ, I hope that Colt will be good for CZ, and won’t hurt, but if any company could hurt CZ its Colt.
I’m not worried about CZ though.
I mean this non-offensively, but the excerpted reply certainly highlights a legal/debate background -- covers all the bases.
I worry about CZ. Structurally, this appears -- just the CZ - Colt portion -- to be similar to Sig USA - Sig GMBH approach. However, on a practical level, their product offering largely rejects Sig's strategy of many unique offerings (CZ removing most of their options) as well as a focus on tangible quality (real or perceived -- for instance, Sig USA's India-made MIM parts as a case in point on the detriment but their highly finished stainless slides on the positive, while and CZ-UB sticking w/ Czech-made parts and minimally finished Czech slide internals while Colt increasing outsources manufacturing to who knows per MAC's video above with no real focus on quality/finishing details or function)... Even European SF forces are now moving away from Colt Canada carbines per reports to more modern weapon systems... Sig's biggest win was working the military bureaucracy/hiring enough retired generals/admirals to get both the next military sidearm and infantry rifle/SMG under their umbrella from Beretta and Colt and FN. CZ's apparent hire of Wesley Clark simply isn't enough to compete and those contracts won't be up again for decades anyways, AND CZ-USA effectively cancelled their highly popular MIL/LE program following the Colt merger, kneecapping themselves further. Unless CZ somehow manages to pull a Glock mass replacement/adoption w/ US LE, I simply don't see the inherent built-in market demand/growth that Sig has and will continue to experience for decades...
Bottom line from my perspective is that Colt remains in denial about their failings/shortcomings and continues to ride on the coattails of their brand's reputation as well as the US gov't's foreign aid packages that still give them a fair bit of reliable business. But without reform including new machinery and moving from CT, Colt's a dead man walking as far as I'm concerned.
I am worried about CZ b/c of the albatross of Colt as well as their financial PROJECTIONS being highly dependent on a yet unrealized mergers and acquisition strategy that at its heart relies on the American consumer being 2/3rds+ of their revenue stream and continuing to increase purchases of their offerings YTY similar to recent years post Biden's indoctrination. I simply don't see how the numbers actually add up. Danged lies and statistics, if you will...
To be clear, I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see enough "there" there unless say Smith and Wesson, FN, Springfield Arms, etc. peer competitor, goes bust and Colt - CZ manages to keep the bulk of the business.
Certainly, the Supreme Court's Bruen Decision is the best possible outcome preventing bans that would have largely torpedoed Colt - CZ's current growth strategy/product catalog (after the recent many product cancellations), but that decision alone doesn't have insane growth prospects -- at least as of yet... And even if the NFA is repealed, there's no guarantee Europe would allow export of "military-grade" weapons or that consumer-hesitant Colt would sell F/A weapons to civilians...
Bottom-line, we're in interesting times where everything's accelerated, so we'll probably know what's what sooner rather than later.
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I'd be curious to learn more about what sort of investment has gone into the Colt side of manufacturing since this acquisition. Have there been significant upgrades to their facilities?
I really do believe Colt is capable of producing quailty firearms (again) and I hope that, at a minimum, their production
operation is seeing improvement as a result of all this.
I have purchased two Colts in the past several years (a revolver and a 1911) and both have been well executed (other than a very tight plunger spring on the 1911) and reliable.
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I'd be curious to learn more about what sort of investment has gone into the Colt side of manufacturing since this acquisition. Have there been significant upgrades to their facilities?
Even if CZ decided to invest in Colt right away, the current state of supply chain issues will delay any real improvements for 6-9 months minimum. It seems that getting anything at the moment is difficult but equipment related controls/hardware is really impacted.
Cheers,
Toby
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Uh-oh: unissued Colt LEO firearms are back on the surplus market -- AND not immediately selling out: https://mailchi.mp/aimsurplus/colt-leo-trade-ins-are-back
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I mean this non-offensively, but the excerpted reply certainly highlights a legal/debate background -- covers all the bases.
No offense taken.
I collect CZ 27s and War and pre-War CZ pistols. In connection therewith, I’ve studied early CZ history somewhat. It is a remarkable company that has survived numerous, significant challenges.
My primary, but perhaps poorly articulated point, is that while Colt management has been its own albatross to one of the great American brands / companies, and while it could indeed burden CZ for some period of time, this is far from the greatest challenge the company has faced.
JGW
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Crickets....
I really hope the CZ/Colt/DW conglomerate is planning on some exciting new releases in 2023. :(
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Crickets....
I really hope the CZ/Colt/DW conglomerate is planning on some exciting new releases in 2023. :(
All I've seen is that they've now fully acquired Spuhr: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/10/17/colt-cz-group-acquires-spuhr-dalby/
And they and other Czech companies are knee-deep in supplying the Ukraine Armed Forces in that meat-grinder: https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/ukraine-waffen-tschechien-1.5716278
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Crickets....
I really hope the CZ/Colt/DW conglomerate is planning on some exciting new releases in 2023. :(
All I've seen is that they've now fully acquired Spuhr: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/10/17/colt-cz-group-acquires-spuhr-dalby/
And they and other Czech companies are knee-deep in supplying the Ukraine Armed Forces in that meat-grinder: https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/ukraine-waffen-tschechien-1.5716278
I realize CZ is supplying Ukraine with guns, i.e. the Bren 2, which is seriously underfunded and underserved for parts in the US for us.
But let’s look at the economy of scale. I remember when the USA was arming friendly forces in Iraq after Gulf War II with Bulgarian Arsenal full-auto milled SAM7s (arguably the highest quality AK made today) for the princely price of $35.00 per unit, while at the same time, semi-auto SAM7s in the US were selling for $700 - $800 a pop (at that time, now those same semi-auto rifles are selling for @ $1,800.00 a pop today, here in the US).
So, hey, let’s go ahead and fully supply the US civilian market at 20 times the price that it would cost to supply Ukraine. Obviously , it makes more sense to (fully) supply the US civilian market at 20 times the price so you can supply the Ukraine military for next to nothing.
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I realize CZ is supplying Ukraine with guns, i.e. the Bren 2, which is seriously underfunded and underserved for parts in the US for us.
But let’s look at the economy of scale. I remember when the USA was arming friendly forces in Iraq after Gulf War II with Bulgarian Arsenal full-auto milled SAM7s (arguably the highest quality AK made today) for the princely price of $35.00 per unit, while at the same time, semi-auto SAM7s in the US were selling for $700 - $800 a pop (at that time, now those same semi-auto rifles are selling for @ $1,800.00 a pop today, here in the US).
So, hey, let’s go ahead and fully supply the US civilian market at 20 times the price that it would cost to supply Ukraine. Obviously , it makes more sense to (fully) supply the US civilian market at 20 times the price so you can supply the Ukraine military for next to nothing.
I don't know that #s are true and the discounted price might reflect the Bulgarian Gov't's contribution to NATO for the GWOT -- remember the Czech's provided their surplus Vz58s as part of their NATO contribution en lieu of cash outlays or new goods requiring the same...
And we also don't know what the Ukrainians are paying for weaponry. But given that the US taxpayer is largely paying for Ukraine's costs/their continued armament and prosecution of this war, I suspect the only ones on the losing end, financially, of these arms deals are the American taxpayer...
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I realize CZ is supplying Ukraine with guns, i.e. the Bren 2, which is seriously underfunded and underserved for parts in the US for us.
But let’s look at the economy of scale. I remember when the USA was arming friendly forces in Iraq after Gulf War II with Bulgarian Arsenal full-auto milled SAM7s (arguably the highest quality AK made today) for the princely price of $35.00 per unit, while at the same time, semi-auto SAM7s in the US were selling for $700 - $800 a pop (at that time, now those same semi-auto rifles are selling for @ $1,800.00 a pop today, here in the US).
So, hey, let’s go ahead and fully supply the US civilian market at 20 times the price that it would cost to supply Ukraine. Obviously , it makes more sense to (fully) supply the US civilian market at 20 times the price so you can supply the Ukraine military for next to nothing.
I don't know that #s are true and the discounted price might reflect the Bulgarian Gov't's contribution to NATO for the GWOT -- remember the Czech's provided their surplus Vz58s as part of their NATO contribution en lieu of cash outlays or new goods requiring the same...
And we also don't know what the Ukrainians are paying for weaponry. But given that the US taxpayer is largely paying for Ukraine's costs/their continued armament and prosecution of this war, I suspect the only ones on the losing end, financially, of these arms deals are the American taxpayer...
And of course, the US taxpayers who bought CZ Bren 2s, especially since before the POTATUS surrendered to the Taliban (and basically invited Putin to invade Ukraine again) are getting doubly screwed.
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If you guys aren't going to talk about Colt and ruining CZ, and persist in bringing politics into the thread...guess what?
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CZ bought Colt not the other way around so maybe CZ will be good for Colt
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Only Colt I own a 1918 US Gov 1911.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221227/ddc7c3032647dcb5983c0df0fe05a3a8.jpg)
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CZ bought Colt not the other way around so maybe CZ will be good for Colt
Yep but recent history is littered with companies buying others out and in turn the loser taking the reins and darn near killing both companies.