The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Center fire Rifles => Topic started by: crosstimbers on August 28, 2022, 04:36:07 PM
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There is a rather interesting article in American Rifleman about the new 600 series rifles.
The author begins with a story about how a friend offered to show him the "perfect rifle", which turned out to be a pre-64 Winchester model 70. But the author felt that it was too nice and pretty to use or even carry. Then he went on to say that he preferred rifles that he could shoot, that have "better ergonomics" (as if an old model 70 doesn't) and that can handle adverse environmental conditions in the field....well shut my mouth, I guess all the game taken by those fine rifles over time were just from some hunter getting lucky?
Then the author states "CZ realized that it's older bolt action rifles were behind the times" (news to me) and goes on to say that CZ "decided to stop making established-if-outdated models, such as the CZ 527, CZ 557 and CZ 550 Safari rifles"...sadly I had to go tell my CZ rifles that I just couldn't take them hunting anymore because they were such antiquated models, despite all the game they had taken, the great accuracy and (in my opinion) good looks.
The recall was avoided, with merely a mention of how the barrel-changing feature had been "decided against for the time being". The author explains many of the features about the 600 rifles, in a easily read comprehensive manner.
I haven't hid my sentiments about the various fine rifles that have been discontinued. The author did make one point that I found both appropriate and surprising (that it was included) how "after two centuries of research and development, there is not much new that any engineer can do to the bolt-action rifle that hasn't been tried"....Amen to that.
Everybody should read the piece themselves and make their own call. But for me, we have lost some models that didn't need replacement, weren't "outdated" unless superior quality is unworthy nowdays, and judging by the replacement line, rifles that are designed to appeal to Buck Rogers fans ( at least a couple of the models).
I just think that change for the sake of change, with no other real motivation, is sort of pointless. It reminds me of how every few years automakers would introduce new pickup designs that- well like one friend of mine said when I asked him if he had seen the new model of a certain truck "No, what new ugly are we gonna have to get used to now?"
Anyway, it's not a bad read. I just don't agree with portions of it and hate to see the rifles that brought me into CZs no longer made, nor do the new ones appeal to me.
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I saw the feature on the cover of the magazine.
I really wish they would do a trail rifle in a larger caliber so it could be used for bear defense.
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Haven't read the Rifleman article but most writers push what there told to. CZ is just keeping up with the current fashion in rifles. The problem with fashions is they change regularly and often. I have a fair number of the 527 model CZ"s. I'm going to miss these little rifles. I also still have a pair of Winchester 70 rifles. One's a pre 64 in 22-250 (originally a 220 Swift) and the others a post 64 in 375 H&H. Oddly enough the post 64 375 H&H Winchester 70 has the long Mauser inspired extractor just like the pre-64's. The long extractor on the 375 is an improvement on the post 64 model 70's improvement that eliminated the long extractor. Funny sometimes how things travel in circles. When I began buying rifles the Weatherby style was in full swing. Remington and Winchester aped the Weatherby's by adding Monte Carlo humps and white line spacers. Fashion if you will. Oddly enough neither Remington nor Winchester currently stock their rifles in this style. They are currently chasing the Tacti Cool style. The only nice thing about fashion is that it does change and eventually it will get back to what is currently unfashionable. At least I'm hoping it will be so.
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My favorite bolt action rifle is an old beater Win M70 Featherweight that I picked up for $200 from a buddy. It's nothing special or valuable like a pre-64, but it is controlled feed and worn in all the right places. New isn't always better. I should have bought a few CZ rifles when they were still available.
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Well, I can only speak for myself, but what brought me to CZ rifles was this: Quality that was apparent in both form and function, in a time when the quality of American- made production rifles was decidedly in the decline....I could by a CZ for less money (in most cases) than a new American rifle, and it would be superior in looks and build- plus it would out-shoot everything else I had, even that which came from before the decline I speak of. It was my first experiences with CZ rifles that showed me that better accuracy was even capable of (for me) compared to everything I had owned and shot before.
I liked how CZ rifles were made the old way, the right way, and how they were such a value for the money.
Now it seems that this will be going the way of other gunmakers, and while some will assert that the changes amount to improvements I challenge anyone to articulate how they amount to anything besides lowered production costs. It's a futile argument, I know, as the talking points are hard to dispute. But for me the fact that the discontinued models didnt need replacing, speaks volumes. The fact that the article in question did not in any way prove otherwise, with it's mindless assertions of better models being "outdated", etc. says it all.
For me, my future purchases will be limited to used rifles at gun shows. Sadly. Just wish I hadn't sold some that I used to own.
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Began with a CZ 527 in 22 Hornet that was imported by Action Arms out of Philadelphia Pennsylvania back in the late 1980's. I liked the whole package, the action size of the 527 to the Hornet cartridge size, the look and the style and the cost. Anyway, as the years progress my Winchester, Remington and Ruger rifles in varmint cartridges were replaced by CZ's. These days I'm down to a pair of Remington's (223 and 220 Swift) a single Winchester 70 (22-250) and a single Ruger 77/22 in 22 Hornet. The 220 Swift and the 22-250 both being too large for the CZ 527 action size. If the CZ's didn't shoot, then the rifle cost savings wouldn't have mattered I'd have stayed with the other manufactures. But shoot they do and well. If I was just beginning to look at CZ's these days, I'd be off put by the current $1000 to 1300 starting cost. Taking a chance on an unknown maker is one thing at a very reasonable price but it's something else completely with a price that's even to or above that of a known manufacturer. The 527's have their idiosyncrasies, backwards safeties, bolt handle interference with scopes, funky magazine hanging down and the scope mounts themselves. All of which can be overlooked because of the performance. If you follow the full CZ forum here, you'll notice most people know CZ through there pistols, the rifle lines, even the rimfires are much less known. CZ has always made a great rifle; I do wonder what percentage of sales rifles make up, however. The model 600 has very little that appeals to me. I'm not interested in the rounds that it's initially offered in. And I don't care for the styling either. The loss of the micro sized action is another nail in it for me. I'll also be paying attention to the used rifle racks more with an eye out for the 452-3's and 527's. If a 550 Full Stock in 9.3X62 shows up, I'll have to make that commitment also.
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I hear you. My first CZ was in fact a 550 in 6.5x55, and how I wish I still had it. But after that I was enthused and got into the 527 models, had one in 7.62 that had chambering problems, I sold it but now realize that it needed chamber work (long story) and in any case every CZ rifle I have owned shamed my domestic rifles for accuracy...and I love those domestic rifles, all of which are family heirlooms. So- that's where I came into CZ centerfires. QUALITY, like it should be, and performance like it should be as well.
I'm getting rather long in the tooth, hopefully the master of everything will give me enough time to enjoy the rifles I only discovered within the last 15 years or so. But it is sad and (in my opinion) completely uncalled for that I shall now be restricted to looking for used models of the rifles that won my heart and respect.
No, I don't need shills pitching the "new and improved" versions of rifles that most certainly never needed to be replaced, so that someone could make something more cheaply while hawking it as "improved".
No, I'm not bitter... ::)
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Is the CZ 600 series essentially dead in the water without a major design overhaul? I can't see it being competitive in Europe without changeable barrels and it's certainly off to a bad start here in the States. I was thinking about getting one, but this recall is such a major shift in the whole design strategy of the 600 that I can't imagine the bean counters letting this go on as is. And the market will punish them heavily.
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Is the CZ 600 series essentially dead in the water without a major design overhaul? I can't see it being competitive in Europe without changeable barrels and it's certainly off to a bad start here in the States. I was thinking about getting one, but this recall is such a major shift in the whole design strategy of the 600 that I can't imagine the bean counters letting this go on as is. And the market will punish them heavily.
It will be the primary CZ rifle platform for many years. It's a great rifle with or without the "easy change" barrel. There may be a slight change at some point to make another attempt at a fairly easy barrel system to change at the end user level. It's unfortunate how the whole recall thing happened.
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Is the CZ 600 series essentially dead in the water without a major design overhaul? I can't see it being competitive in Europe without changeable barrels and it's certainly off to a bad start here in the States. I was thinking about getting one, but this recall is such a major shift in the whole design strategy of the 600 that I can't imagine the bean counters letting this go on as is. And the market will punish them heavily.
If you're really interested in one, it might pay to wait. There is a chance the barrel swap feature might not be the only gremlin- I mean if one thing wasn't well thought out something else might not have been as well. Regardless of my feelings about the cancelled models I suggest that from a neutral point of view.
Do you have anything else to hunt with in the meantime?
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You know, I'm not picking a fight. But in most cases the definition of a "great" firearm involves the test of time. Something that has just been introduced, especially under controversial circumstances, doesn't get the head-nod of "great" simply because someone promoting it says so.
What I do know is that the rifles which have been discontinued do in fact merit the term "great". Yet, they are now gone. There is not a particle of goodness about that, nor a shred of redemption in whatever has been offered to replace them.
My first 550 amazed me with it's accuracy. Granted some of that was probably due to the SS trigger. However I have attended several law enforcement sniper schools and have to say that the CZ models I have used decidedly bested the designed-for sniper use American made offerings I had involvement with.
The 550 went the way of the Do Do, and thankfully there was little in the way of explanation besides the truth. It was too expensive to produce, someone wasnt making enough money...at least the short lived 557 was still a quality rifle compared to American production rifles.
So anyways. I would like to think I'm done here.
It was so nice to find a rifle that was built like rifles should be built. So nice to find function and form in one package. Hinged steel floorplates versus plastic (dont care how many times you say "polymer" it's still plastic) magazines.....anyway everyone gets the picture.
My first deer was killed with a sporterized Krag. I still have the rifle. I remember an article about the design, that said "the fit and finish cannot be duplicated today" or some such thing. I thought it should have read that the fit and finish WOULDNT be duplicated today. After all we havent lost the capability to do such things- they just arent as profitable. Too expensive to reproduce.
And so go the CZ 550, 557 and 527.
All right I'll shut up now.
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Some of the 600 line are coming in with the redesigned features. I really like the Trail, and I agree - it would be awesome, (for me), in .308 with the ability to use AR-10 magazines, but it is what it is. I have only had one bolt action CZ rifle, my long lost and greatly lamented CZ 527M, but I will also say the 600 Lux in .308 has definitely grabbed my attention, with iron sights and Rem 700 scope mount drill and tap in place. I miss the 527 series, and the old 550s, but the 600 is what is here to stay now, and I think once they get past the teething issues, it will be an excellent rifle.
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Some of the 600 line are coming in with the redesigned features. I really like the Trail, and I agree - it would be awesome, (for me), in .308 with the ability to use AR-10 magazines, but it is what it is. I have only had one bolt action CZ rifle, my long lost and greatly lamented CZ 527M, but I will also say the 600 Lux in .308 has definitely grabbed my attention, with iron sights and Rem 700 scope mount drill and tap in place. I miss the 527 series, and the old 550s, but the 600 is what is here to stay now, and I think once they get past the teething issues, it will be an excellent rifle.
Do you own a 600 Trail? I mean you say that you like it, or do you just think it looks appealing?
I agree on one point, and it's the only point about the 600 series I appreciate. The change to Remington 700 scope bases/mounts...something CZ should have done years ago in my opinion.
Of the new offerings, the Lux is the only one I might ever have an interest in. But as they say "it aint happening". I would rather save $ and look for a fine 550 or 527 used, than buy the offerings that brought about the end of fine rifles.
CZ is going to find out the same thing Coke did when they introduced their "new formula" back in the day. Change for the sake of change, when you aren't making an improvement....well it just "aint gonna win the girl"
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I do not have a 600 series rifle yet, but with luck that will be changing soon. The Lux isn't in yet in the updated model, but the Trail and the Alpha are coming in. The Trail reminds me so much of a vastly updated version of my lamented 527M/CSR.
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I have yet to see a 600 myself, even though I'm not interested in one I would still like to examine one whenever they finally materialize locally.
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I THINK I have a line on an Alpha in .308, not sure yet. That one has the all weather stock and Picatinny rails for scope mounts. Scraping shekels and such if it's true.
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Some of the 600 line are coming in with the redesigned features. I really like the Trail, and I agree - it would be awesome, (for me), in .308 with the ability to use AR-10 magazines, but it is what it is. I have only had one bolt action CZ rifle, my long lost and greatly lamented CZ 527M, but I will also say the 600 Lux in .308 has definitely grabbed my attention, with iron sights and Rem 700 scope mount drill and tap in place. I miss the 527 series, and the old 550s, but the 600 is what is here to stay now, and I think once they get past the teething issues, it will be an excellent rifle.
Not to worry about a future version of the 527 carbine format in the new series [emoji6].The 600 trail in 556 felt very good in the hand today; got to find a way to get some rounds down range one of these days. The Alpha with the straight bolt handle at around 160° angle is very quick to operate.
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Nice! Still no word on the Alpha...
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Just saw the 600 write up in the Nov Guns & Ammo. The writer gushes over the new model. In the first page he falsely alludes to the old CZ as being a "push-feed action." Later on, he says the new 600 has a "controlled-round feed (CRF) bolt" with an AR-15/M16 style extractor. Huh?
Such nonsense. Just write about the rifle, without making things up.
Joe
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Just saw the 600 write up in the Nov Guns & Ammo. The writer gushes over the new model. In the first page he falsely alludes to the old CZ as being a "push-feed action." Later on, he says the new 600 has a "controlled-round feed (CRF) bolt" with an AR-15/M16 style extractor. Huh?
Such nonsense. Just write about the rifle, without making things up.
Joe
Some of the older ones were push feed, 557 for instance. I haven't read the article so not sure if he specified, but in a broad sense it's not wrong.
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Just saw the 600 write up in the Nov Guns & Ammo. The writer gushes over the new model. In the first page he falsely alludes to the old CZ as being a "push-feed action." Later on, he says the new 600 has a "controlled-round feed (CRF) bolt" with an AR-15/M16 style extractor. Huh?
Such nonsense. Just write about the rifle, without making things up.
Joe
The 557 was the short-lived successor to the 550 and is push-fed. Everything prior to that was CRF. The new rifle (600) has a modified form of CRF, but not the same as the 550. Only time will tell if it's as reliable as the older CRF.
But you're right, the author does gush quite a bit. It's a bit of a disservice to the readers, but that's what they are paid to do. In a perfect world things would be different, I'm sure that the first articles concerning the new model 70 praised it as the new cat's meow.
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The 557 was the short-lived successor to the 550 and is push-fed. Everything prior to that was CRF. The new rifle (600) has a modified form of CRF, but not the same as the 550. Only time will tell if it's as reliable as the older CRF.
Modified CRF? What do you mean by that? All I know is CFR (Mauser style) and push-feed.
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The 557 was the short-lived successor to the 550 and is push-fed. Everything prior to that was CRF. The new rifle (600) has a modified form of CRF, but not the same as the 550. Only time will tell if it's as reliable as the older CRF.
Modified CRF? What do you mean by that? All I know is CFR (Mauser style) and push-feed.
It is some sort of new system, and I don't pretend to understand it well enough to describe it, I simply haven't had the interest to research it. What it is NOT is the Mauser-styled CRF.
I'm sure that it's cheaper to manufacture.
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At one point in time (I believe it was the early 1990's) Winchester offered a non-Mauser style control feed for the model 70 bolt action rifle. I don't mean the pre 64 model 70's with the long rotating extractor, but a controlled feed version based on the push feed post 64 style ejection system. I also seem to remember it was just about the time they began offering a short actioned model 70 and this version was mainly offered in varmint calibers. I've never used one so can't comment on them. There are other non-Mauser inspired control round fed rifles also.
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I had the opportunity to shoot and work with a CZ 600 Trail in .233 the past month (also have a 527 carbine in 7.62x39 and also used a friend’s in .223) and have to say that it was a very enjoyable experience. For one thing, the standard AR-15 type 10-round Magpul included for the .223 was much appreciated over the older 527 magazine. I would say to get some experience with the new 600 series before drawing conclusions one way or the other versus the older series.
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I had the opportunity to shoot and work with a CZ 600 Trail in .233 the past month (also have a 527 carbine in 7.62x39 and also used a friend’s in .223) and have to say that it was a very enjoyable experience. For one thing, the standard AR-15 type 10-round Magpul included for the .223 was much appreciated over the older 527 magazine. I would say to get some experience with the new 600 series before drawing conclusions one way or the other versus the older series.
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What drew me to CZ rifles was the combination of style and quality. Top-notch Euro-centric rifles that embodied both form and function, beyond that of current American made production rifles, and at prices that didn't require I hijack an armored truck in order to buy them.
Now, they have abandoned the style portion of what made me a CZ rifle fan, in favor of quasi Buck-Rogers raygunesque looks. They will probably find plenty of customers who actually like this. But let's not pretend that sales alone are a driving force for these changes, there will be lower production costs that are probably as much or more a factor than anything else. As for the magpul mag capability, a lack of plastic on the older models isn't a drawback in my opinion, it's a plus.
So, whether the function portion of the equation is still there or not. Speaking only for myself, I'm simply not interested.
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I'm glad I have my 3 CZ rifles with the newest being from 2004. It saddens me that the 550's and 527's aren't produced anymore. Nowadays if I have a hankering for a new rifle, I'll look to Savage before I consider CZ...life's too short to hunt with a ugly rifle.
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I can understand when something isn't selling, a company needs to do something differently. But I find it very difficult to believe that the 527, one of the most popular of their line, wasn't selling. When they discontinued the 550 there was at least some amount of honesty, that they were trying to reduce production costs. With all that being said, the end of the 550/557/527 and the introduction of the 600 series can only amount to two things 1. an effort to further reduce production costs and 2. making changes simply for the sake of making changes.
Because there are always people who like buying something that is "new", they will probably sell well for a time. After the new wears off, I seriously doubt the new rifles will be outselling the older models.
I don't know why it is that so many things which never needed replacement, get replaced for something that is allegedly "better", even when people clearly aren't happy about it....(think of new formula Coke and what a disaster that was, among others) But customer satisfaction is the absolute last thing that drives such activity. My 2 cents, based on many years of observation on a variety of products.
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Probably the machinery was worn out, as with Winchester in 1964, and rather than keep making the time honored product, decided to make a product that would net more profit, even if inferior.
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Probably the machinery was worn out, as with Winchester in 1964, and rather than keep making the time honored product, decided to make a product that would net more profit, even if inferior.
Perhaps, but I think doubtful. CZ bolt guns had not been in production here nearly as long as the Winchester rifles in question. In any case, the entire debacle has totally cancelled any ideas of new gun purchases I had- to used gun finds only....even then the prices are prohibitive, as the more desirable older models have skyrocketed in price to the point of being almost unobtainium.
Still, we do what we can. Like you say, I'm just happy to have what I have. If I am ever able to locate something else that I want and have the good fortune to find it affordable...I will welcome it to my collection.
CZ will never admit it, and shills will argue against it, but they really relieved themselves in their mess kit with all these discontinuations. No matter how it affects them in the future, the bigger issue is what we have lost. Sad.
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All I can say is wow - my 600 Alpha is quite the rifle.
(https://i.imgur.com/zHxuNTu.jpg)
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I'm glad that you like your 600.
All I'm saying is the new series isn't the old, and it was the older models that drew me to CZ rifles. I don't see a real reason for replacing the previous models outside of cost-cutting issues. I will miss what was available before.
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I do agree that I miss the 527M Carbine quite a bit. :'(
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I had hands on with a Trail did not get to shoot it but the stock rattled and the cheekpiece was not comfortable at all.I was imagining putting my face to that on a cold November morning and thought that would have a high suck factor. Trail not for me too much COLT not enough CZ
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I had hands on with a Trail did not get to shoot it but the stock rattled and the cheekpiece was not comfortable at all.I was imagining putting my face to that on a cold November morning and thought that would have a high suck factor. Trail not for me too much COLT not enough CZ
What do you define as “too much Colt”? Like in Armalite AR-15 feel for mag and safety (although the safety is more Bren)? Colt Mfg was not involved with the design of any of the 600 series rifles. The telescoping stock is pretty much the same in feel as most rifles with a similar design for compactness.
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I had hands on with a Trail did not get to shoot it but the stock rattled and the cheekpiece was not comfortable at all.I was imagining putting my face to that on a cold November morning and thought that would have a high suck factor. Trail not for me too much COLT not enough CZ
What do you define as “too much Colt”? Like in Armalite AR-15 feel for mag and safety (although the safety is more Bren)? Colt Mfg was not involved with the design of any of the 600 series rifles. The telescoping stock is pretty much the same in feel as most rifles with a similar design for compactness.
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On third thought....no comment. It wouldn't help anyway.
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All I can say is wow - my 600 Alpha is quite the rifle.
(https://i.imgur.com/zHxuNTu.jpg)
Now that some time has passed, I'd like to ask, How does it shoot?
And by shoot I mean, accuracy from the bench at 100 yards. Truly sub 3/4 MOA with Factory ammo? Which ones?
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I could have SWORN I posted these results here...maybe in another thread.
(https://i.imgur.com/SyC8htU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uLaLoPw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PiVbaIJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Obt4RMk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ddoa4Is.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0ZyYbkp.jpg)
And that's what we have so far.
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I had hands on with a Trail did not get to shoot it but the stock rattled and the cheekpiece was not comfortable at all.I was imagining putting my face to that on a cold November morning and thought that would have a high suck factor. Trail not for me too much COLT not enough CZ
I agree with the other posters who think the 600 series is a step backwards. That said, I bought a 600 trail chambered in .223 as it was the only one of the 600 series that appealed to me as it was so handy.
My first impressions when I opened the box were not good, it looked cheap, and then found ( as you did ) that the stock rattled, not only that but I found the middle setting was best for me but it would unintentionally extend further as it can only be locked to stop it retracting, and not extending. However I persevered and found a simple and permanent solution consisting of a cable tie fixed to the left arm of the stock. The cable tie not only eliminates the rattle , but it makes it rigid, and stops it extending further than needed. Now I simply pull the stock back and it automatically goes to the correct position and does not wobble in the slightest.
(https://i.imgur.com/K4Xi5rIl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/U8F6P0hl.jpg)
The thing that I like the best is the adjustable trigger. I find it better than the trigger on my 527 ! It's wonderful.
(https://i.imgur.com/2kDIzWzl.jpg)
It's a 2 stage trigger that is fully adjust able. I have mine set at the lightest setting which I have found to be 2.5 lbs, and I have adjusted the first stage so that there is just a tiny amount of take up before hitting the wall, it then breaks crisp and clean with no noticeable overtravel.
I understand that the Trail is the only example of the 600 series to have this trigger system
It's as accurate as my AR 15's with the same barrel length and expensive TriggerTech triggers , and uses AR mags.
The lower is made from carbon reinforced polymer, it's very tough. It's the same material as used on the bren 2, I just wish my Bren 2 had the same stock as the 600 Trail.
I am now pleased to own it, it was a good buy after all. ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/x4MuB3pl.jpg)
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If you don't mind me asking.. what rings and scope are on this rifle?
All I can say is wow - my 600 Alpha is quite the rifle.
(https://i.imgur.com/zHxuNTu.jpg)
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I recently read the CZ 600 write-up....
Welcome from Georgia.
Please take a few moments to familiarize yourself with all the sticky posts in the 'New Members' section. Together with the Help Topics in the 'Important Information !' or 'FAQ' sub-section, these include 'how tos' such as 'how to' post pictures on the forum.
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If you don't mind me asking.. what rings and scope are on this rifle?
All I can say is wow - my 600 Alpha is quite the rifle.
(https://i.imgur.com/zHxuNTu.jpg)
Sorry to missed this for so long - That's a SIG WHISKEY3 scope and I cannot remember where the rings came from.