The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Matthew Rauh on December 04, 2022, 02:33:08 PM
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New shooter and proud owner of a P 01 omega. Just got my first 500 rounds in,
I have had a FTF/Jam issue. The gun would cycle after firing but then it wouldn't fire. The slide would seem to be in battery, but stuck; can't rack it without considerable force pulling it back. This happened three times while using two boxes of Fiocchi 115 gr. FMJ ammo. I did not have this problem with Federal, Winchester or Remington.
Out of curiosity, I disassembled the P01 and dropped a cartridge in the breech of the exposed barrel. The Fiocchi plunked in place, but would stick. If I turned the barrel upside down, it would not fall out. Not hard to pry out with my fingers. The Federal and Remington cartridges plunked in place and remained loose.
I am new to shooting, so I am not sure how tight a cartridge should fit in the breech, but this doesn't seem right to me and I am afraid to use Fiocchi anymore. This occurred with two separate boxes.
Thanks for the help.
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FIRST
Welcome Aboard from GA.
Please take a few moments to familiarize yourself with the sticky posts in the 'New Members' Forum and also the 'Important Information' sub-section.
SECOND
This issue is very common and beginning to show up more frequently. Our Stickies have a complete guide to handloading issues and another whole section on issues with factory ammo.
You'll want to read this: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=120538.0
You didn't say what type ammo gave you issues, but the problem is the same: Ammo that is out of spec in its physical proportions being chambered in the Luger's tapered chamber.
We have had complaints with both SIG and Fiocchi within the last 2 months. Can you please tell us more ?
Read that and then we can discuss further...
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When doing the plunk test the cartridges should be able to freely rotate and drop freely when the barrel is held upside down. I would no longer use Fiocchi. Blazer Brass has worked well in my Accushadow 2. You can try that as well.
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Thanks for responding. It is the Fiocchi 115gr Range FMJ. Got them on sale.
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We're not making this up....
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=119349.0
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And thanks for the welcome. There is a lot of useful information here.
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Thanks for the articles. That settles it. Got four boxes of Fiocchi I will return or sell at a discount. Picked up a box of Blazers tonight to see if they chamber well. Again no issue with Federal, Winchester or Remington. Glad I joined.
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Thanks for the articles. That settles it. Got four boxes of Fiocchi I will return or sell at a discount. Picked up a box of Blazers tonight to see if they chamber well. Again no issue with Federal, Winchester or Remington. Glad I joined.
You can't return ammo. I would suggest....
1) Do the ink marker thing and twirling the cartridge in the chamber with light pressure to check where the interference is. It could be a small burr or some such on 3 or 4 rounds out of 50 that can easily be removed with a pocket knife.
2) There is a high likelihood of this ammo being OK in a Ruger or early gen Glock... something with a more generous chamber.
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Thanks for the advice. Will give it a try.
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Quick update in case anyone is following. Took my two remaining boxes of Fiocchi and each round failed to plink. Visibly stood out of the chamber. I feel bad that I had fired two boxes before noticing this. Don't see to have damaged the gun since other rounds from other brands worked well. I think I might take my barrel whenever I decide to purchase untested brands.
Glad I joined the forum; very helpful.
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Quick update in case anyone is following.
You have 400 readers following this thread.
Took my two remaining boxes of Fiocchi and each round failed to plink. Visibly stood out of the chamber. I feel bad that I had fired two boxes before noticing this. Don't see to have damaged the gun since other rounds from other brands worked well. I think I might take my barrel whenever I decide to purchase untested brands.
Glad I joined the forum; very helpful.
We're glad you joined in too. Please take the time to cover a sample cartridge with a Sharpie marker, then lightly twist that cartridge in the chamber. It would be interesting to know exactly what part of the Fiocchi cartridge is causing the issue.
All the best.
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New shooter and proud owner of a P 01 omega. Just got my first 500 rounds in,
I have had a FTF/Jam issue. The gun would cycle after firing but then it wouldn't fire. The slide would seem to be in battery, but stuck; can't rack it without considerable force pulling it back. This happened three times while using two boxes of Fiocchi 115 gr. FMJ ammo. I did not have this problem with Federal, Winchester or Remington.
Out of curiosity, I disassembled the P01 and dropped a cartridge in the breech of the exposed barrel. The Fiocchi plunked in place, but would stick. If I turned the barrel upside down, it would not fall out. Not hard to pry out with my fingers. The Federal and Remington cartridges plunked in place and remained loose.
I am new to shooting, so I am not sure how tight a cartridge should fit in the breech, but this doesn't seem right to me and I am afraid to use Fiocchi anymore. This occurred with two separate boxes.
Thanks for the help.
Return your gun to CZ for a free warranty repair, where they will lengthen the barrel throat and you will no longer have any issues with any brand of ammo. They will send you a free Fedex return label as well.
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Return your gun to CZ for a free warranty repair, where they will lengthen the barrel throat and you will no longer have any issues with any brand of ammo. They will send you a free Fedex return label as well.
Exactly what would this option do ?
The OP has already conclusively proven that the issue lies in the ammo. How will permanently loosening the chamber tolerances help with this temporary ammo issue ?
Lots of options are FREE, but that doesn't make them Wise. IMHO, this would not be a moderate, well-reasoned, or even a sensible response.
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I have had a FTF/Jam issue. The gun would cycle after firing but then it wouldn't fire. The slide would seem to be in battery, but stuck; can't rack it without considerable force pulling it back. This happened three times while using two boxes of Fiocchi 115 gr. FMJ ammo. I did not have this problem with Federal, Winchester or Remington.
Had the exact same issue using Armscor 124gr FMJ on my P10S, and only that brand, more upscale brands worked fine. After about 200 rounds, the barrel became more forgiving, less FTFs. Still, I bought an ammo gauge so I wouldn't have to disassemble my P10 every time I got a new box of ammo.
Yes, I gauge every single box of ammo I buy now. In practice, the ammo gauge seems a little more exacting than my barrel, so that's good.
I just bought a box of SIG 124gr FMJs. I'm happy to say all the rounds passed the ammo gauge.
A recommendation was made earlier for Blaser Brass ammo. I second that recommendation. Best quality ammo for the money I have found.
I've got some Fiocchi ammo, Black Mambas and their EMB ammo. Thankfully, they gauged/plunked well.
Hope you enjoy your P01
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Didn't mean to cause such a stir. 400 followers?
I am very pleased I joined the forum. I received nothing but helpful advice. I am convinced you saved me from damaging my gun.
I did the sharpie test. If I can figure it out, I will send a picture.
I did think of sending it in to CZ so I don't have to worry about it again. But I am hesitant to do that. Not sure why.
The blazers fit perfectly.
As far as the Fiocchi is concerned, I will trade with someone else or hang on to them. I may purchase a second handgun in the Spring because my youngest son is interested in shooting. From what I gathered on other posts, it sounds as though other manufacturers have more liberal space in the barrel (sorry, don't know all the technical terms). The Fiocchi was and is on sale at Scheel's for $14.99 a box. That is why I bought several boxes.
Quick question. Does the bullet grain also play into this? I have been shooting only 115 grain (breaking in as suggested elsewhere in the forum). I am tempted to bump up to 124 grain. Will that increase the chance of the problem?
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The bullet grain does matter. The Blazer Brass 9mm 124 grain RN and Freedom Munitions 9mm 124 grain RN (new) both passed the plunk test in my Accushadow 2 barrel. I'm told most 124 grain RN will work, but I personally have only tested these two.
I don't believe most 147 grain would pass the plunk test, but I haven't tried it myself. I did plunk Federal Syntech PCC 130 grain FP, and only half of the rounds passed the plunk test. I shot them in my Sig with no problems.
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Here is the sharpie test...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52555978933_eeca4f407d_k.jpg)
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I did think of sending it in to CZ so I don't have to worry about it again. But I am hesitant to do that. Not sure why.
The blazers fit perfectly.
As far as the Fiocchi is concerned, I will trade with someone else or hang on to them. I may purchase a second handgun in the Spring because my youngest son is interested in shooting. From what I gathered on other posts, it sounds as though other manufacturers have more liberal space in the barrel (sorry, don't know all the technical terms). The Fiocchi was and is on sale at Scheel's for $14.99 a box. That is why I bought several boxes.
Quick question. Does the bullet grain also play into this? I have been shooting only 115 grain (breaking in as suggested elsewhere in the forum). I am tempted to bump up to 124 grain. Will that increase the chance of the problem?
1. Reaming the chamber is like cutting off your toes because your new shoes don't fit !! Reaming may fix issues with OAL, but as the article points out... there are 4 distinct areas problems can occur. Will it solve yours ? Who knows ?
2. No better proof than that the Blazer works.
3. Just hold onto the Fiocchi and mark it up to experience gained. There will be a gun that it will work in someday.
4. As explained in the article, bullet weight can sometimes force the OAL to be longer. So yes, SOME heavier bullets can give trouble. But not all. It's usually a combination or extra weight and special shape.
5. Your photo looks to be an expanded case head because the scraps are way down near the rim. Those cases weren't sized properly before loading. Or, maybe they buckled during loading. They may shoot fine in a Gen 1 or 2 Glock.
Welcome to the Club
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Thanks.
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The 147 Federal Syntech work in all of my CZ's.
[Mods Added: Great info. If we had the Federal PN, then we could add that info to the Preferred Ammo List.]
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(https://i.imgur.com/aadCvIEm.jpg)
I take that back. Your Fiocchi seems to have 3 areas of contact. One at the OAL and 2 at the case head.
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Does that mean anything special?
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Yes and No.
• Yes: 3 distinct places is why slamming the slide forward didn't remedy the issue. Sometimes with just 1 "touch point", the ammo can be hammered into shape good enough to where the shooter doesn't notice.
• No: It's proof of how tight the fit between cartridge and chamber really is. We shoot all day long and don't ever think about the clearances required to make modern guns work. Clearances as fine as 0.001 to 0.002" (smaller than a human hair) in a lot of places. Look into the history sometime. You'll see that ALL modern machining and production has its roots in gun and ammo production. It's really a miracle of modern manufacturing that more shooters aren't hurt OR guns aren't jammed on a daily basis.
If you have a pal who reloads, these could most proabably be opened up, re-sized, and re-assembled for the cost of powder (proabably about $5)... if every other idea fails.
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Return your gun to CZ for a free warranty repair, where they will lengthen the barrel throat and you will no longer have any issues with any brand of ammo. They will send you a free Fedex return label as well.
Exactly what would this option do ?
The OP has already conclusively proven that the issue lies in the ammo. How will permanently loosening the chamber tolerances help with this temporary ammo issue ?
Lots of options are FREE, but that doesn't make them Wise. IMHO, this would not be a moderate, well-reasoned, or even a sensible response.
This option would PERMANENTLY fix the issue FOR all AMMO LENGTHS, as it is the very same thing I did and was recommended by CZ to do so, which was 100% effective.
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Is it a quality control problem, a bad day with the presses?
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Is it a quality control problem, a bad day with the presses?
I don't know their manufacturing process, so I can't say.
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Is it a quality control problem, a bad day with the presses?
I have no idea as to why the longer throat length would not be a standard as shipped condition, but apparently it should be.
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I have no idea as to why the longer throat length would not be a standard as shipped condition, but apparently it should be.
Throat length/bullet position can affect accuracy. How fast do you want the projectile traveling before it enters the cone/rifling?
I know that some guys in precision rifle know exactly what that distance needs to be - for their rifle.
I'd rather keep the tight tolerances and maintain accuracy.
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I did contact CZ USA and they are willing to check out the barrel under warranty. I intend (when the current Minnesota winter warning blows over) to go to larger gun shop and ask if I could plunk several brands into my barrel. If I find more issues, I may have CZ check it. If not, I'll chalk it up to some bad ammo. Thanks again for the interest and advice. Your willingness to help is appreciated.
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I intend (when the current Minnesota winter warning blows over) to go to larger gun shop and ask if I could plunk several brands into my barrel. If I find more issues, I may have CZ check it.
• While you may find a source for several brands of ammo commonly available, you may also find a know-it-all gun store expert who has never seen a CZ, but never-the-less knows everything there is to know about everything 9mm. This even though he doesn't reload, doesn't shoot pistol competition, and believes you need to trade that pistol in on the same brand he shoots (albeit only once a year). What I'm saying is that gun stores are hurting right now, so you'll most proabably get the full-court-press to leave the gun for his gunsmith and/or buy lots of his expensive ammo and/or buy the pistol he has in the show case.
He may also want you to test ammo like Hornady Critical Duty or XTP which is not FMJ. The place to start is on the phone. Make sure you're going to a store with lots of 115gr FMJ in stock from several makers.
• CZ is not going to spend much time "checking" it. They may get 40 of these each day. And sadly their go-to answer is going to be ream and then check. No one (including them) is going to be able to quantify the dimensional increase. But, I can give you the one and only FACT that all parties can agree upon: Once material is taken off, it can't be put back on.
• Here's another option you may like better:
(https://i.imgur.com/OdoqxUAm.jpg)
When you are able, then send me your full name and mailing address in a PM. I will send you several samples of known-good FMJ ammo. You'll then be able to try those in your chamber without leaving the comfort of your home.
How does that sound ?
;)
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Hi Wobbly - Advanced Merry Christmas!
Was wondering why you wanted Matthew to make sure the store sold lots of 115gr FMJ?
From the threads I was reading it seemed CZs were optimized for 124gr?
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Hi Wobbly - Advanced Merry Christmas!
Was wondering why you wanted Matthew to make sure the store sold lots of 115gr FMJ?
From the threads I was reading it seemed CZs were optimized for 124gr?
• And merry Christmas to you and yours.
• 115gr simply has a higher probability of having a shorter OAL. If you never tried the ammo and you don't have your barrel with you, it can be a good decision.
• True. Apparently the twist rate of most 9mm's (at least on paper) favors the 124gr. But if you've watched the 100yd shooting vids of member JoeL on this forum, he does all that with 115gr FMJ.
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That's an interesting thought, building a database of plunk friendly ammo in CZ's. Those of us that reload could benchmark our barrels with a known bullet to see who has the shortest chamber (push test it). Then we could use that barrel as the plunk tester or use the benchmark bullet OAL to "normalize" the plunk test results as needed. At minimum we could at least know approximately how much variability there are in CZ barrels?
I know my shortest barrel chamber is my new Accushadow 2. It is shorter than my SP-01 Tactical by a fair bit which I thought was short to begin with.
I guess the failure will be that the manufacturers are always changing their components and what works today may not in the future. It seems like a lot of effort for little reward. Maybe the value is the barrel chamber data and the plunk database isn't as important?
Cheers,
Toby
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Your offer is generous, Wobbly. Will give it a try.
As a new shooter with only 500 rounds under my belt, I am interested in 115 grain for practice. But I noticed that Scheel's (sporting goods chain around here) has Federal 124 grain on sale for something like $17 a box. I need to go to Scheel's to finish Christmas shopping on Sunday so I probably will take my barrel and plunk a few. I will also try out some JHP.
I just got some snap caps for dry fire. I plunked them and discovered that one stuck a little so I will not use that one.
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As a new shooter with only 500 rounds under my belt, I am interested in 115 grain for practice. But I noticed that Scheel's (sporting goods chain around here) has Federal 124 grain on sale for something like $17 a box. I need to go to Scheel's to finish Christmas shopping on Sunday so I probably will take my barrel and plunk a few. I will also try out some JHP.
I suggest you print out the "Preferred Ammo List" (found in the stickies) and take that with you too. You'll see that major brands, like Federal and CCI, proabably don't have this issue.
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Will do, thanks. All the Federal and CCI I have shot had not problems whatsoever. Even the Fed JHP 124 defense ammo plunks normally though I haven't shot it yet. If they are willing I will plunk every available brand and grain they have.
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At the risk of dragging out this topic too far, I thought I would give a final "update" if anyone is interested. I did go to a sporting goods store today and plunked most of what they had on the shelf. It was not the widest possible selection, but it was what I expected. I plunked the 9mm Fiocchi 115 grain FMJ (9A) which gave me problems earlier, and it failed the plunk test and stuck in the barrel. So did its bigger sister, the Fiocchi 124 gr. Everyrthing else plunked fine including several 147 gr. and all the self defense ammo.
Needless to say I am relieved that I don't have a defective barrel. Picky to Fiocchi, yes, but I don't feel compelled to send it in to CZ. I just have keep testing any "untried" ammo.
There was one interesting thing I learned. I found some boxes of Fiocchi 9mm 124 grain FMJ ammo marked as "Training Dynamic" (9APB) and not "Range Dynamic" as the rest. I hadn't seen this before and I couldn't find it on their website, but it plunked just fine.
Thanks for your time, expertise, and especially patience with a new gun owner who has a lot to learn.
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That's an interesting thought, building a database of plunk friendly ammo in CZ's. Those of us that reload could benchmark our barrels with a known bullet to see who has the shortest chamber (push test it). Then we could use that barrel as the plunk tester or use the benchmark bullet OAL to "normalize" the plunk test results as needed. At minimum we could at least know approximately how much variability there are in CZ barrels?
If I understand your concern correctly... We already have the beginnings of that in Preferred Ammo List. Our largest issue there is getting people to list the manufacturers' PN. So many times an improved product carries the same name, but the product is so evolved that it gets a new PN.
Sadly your idea won't work as planned for 2 reasons. 1) Back in the early 2000's all CZ's seemed to be reamed with the exact same chamber reamer. Cartridges that fit the P01 would also fit the SP01, etc. That all changed around ~2012 when differences started to be noticed in the Shaddow line. These days my P10c is way different from my SP01.
2) But the main reason it won't help is that bullet-chamber "collisions" are caused by a mixture of OAL and bullet ogive shape. Conical bullets collide at the outside shoulder, while HP collide along the ogive. So knowing the OAL is not enough.
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That's an interesting thought, building a database of plunk friendly ammo in CZ's. Those of us that reload could benchmark our barrels with a known bullet to see who has the shortest chamber (push test it). Then we could use that barrel as the plunk tester or use the benchmark bullet OAL to "normalize" the plunk test results as needed. At minimum we could at least know approximately how much variability there are in CZ barrels?
If I understand your concern correctly... We already have the beginnings of that in Preferred Ammo List. Our largest issue there is getting people to list the manufacturers' PN. So many times an improved product carries the same name, but the product is so evolved that it gets a new PN.
Sadly your idea won't work as planned for 2 reasons. 1) Back in the early 2000's all CZ's seemed to be reamed with the exact same chamber reamer. Cartridges that fit the P01 would also fit the SP01, etc. That all changed around ~2012 when differences started to be noticed in the Shaddow line. These days my P10c is way different from my SP01.
2) But the main reason it won't help is that bullet-chamber "collisions" are caused by a mixture of OAL and bullet ogive shape. Conical bullets collide at the outside shoulder, while HP collide along the ogive. So knowing the OAL is not enough.
Wobbly,
That's the point, gather data to see how much the chambers vari now. If we chose say the precision delta 124 jhp as our reference bullet and everyone push test that bullet in their chamber, we could get a database of chamber lengths. Ideally it would be the same bullet shipped around but it could just be precision delta 124 jhp (different bullets, same part number).
There would be truth in data once we gather enough. We would need the year make and model gun and the data from 5-10 push tests.
While collecting the reference bullet push test data we could collect any other bullet push test data from that user as well (stuff from their reloading bench).
Not sure on the logistics but it'd isn't that difficult in my mind. Just need a committed group to compile data and share the results.
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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At the risk of dragging out this topic too far....
At age 72 with 9°F temps outside, it's not like you were keeping me from doing anything else !! ;D
And we have a huge supply of black HTML text the forum bought before the Obama shortages. I can't think of anyone or anything better to use it on. ;)
There was one interesting thing I learned. I found some boxes of Fiocchi 9mm 124 grain FMJ ammo marked as "Training Dynamic" (9APB) and not "Range Dynamic" as the rest. I hadn't seen this before and I couldn't find it on their website, but it plunked just fine.
That's interesting. Could have been pre-rush, a higher quality level ammo, or made in Europe.
Thanks for your time, expertise, and especially patience with a new gun owner who has a lot to learn.
This is not your usual gun board. We've set this up specifically as a place to get new CZ owners and new reloaders started in the correct direction, without a lot of noise from the 'peanut gallery'. In more normal times, when reloading supplies were plentiful, you would have gotten encouraging replies from 8-10 experienced CZ shooters.
Hopefully we'll get back to that someday.