The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => CZ Gunsmithing => Topic started by: AZ_CZ on December 18, 2022, 11:51:00 AM
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Got a little gunsmithing mystery and need some help diagnosing this. Have a Gen 1 Phantom with a holosun 507c riding the slide and some DIY upgrades: CZC comp hammer, 13# hammer spring, brand new OEM recoil spring, CGW floating trigger pin and reduced spring, and an action polishing. The upper has an extended firing pin and matching springs. All of this was done thousands of rounds ago. No major operating issues. The issue predates the 507c install.
Currently about 1:10 rnds will stop the gun like I’ve never experienced before. Gun will fire. Spent round will eject. New round will not fully chamber. Slide will be 1/4 inch out of battery. You can push it forward BUT the trigger is “dead” absolutely no action to it, the hammer is not cocked. Can’t second strike -dead trigger and it will not cock even manually recock. The hammer is not engaging the sear at all, just tension from the hammer spring. At this point I have to manually eject the round and rechamber a fresh round. This is not an ammo issue - I wish. Tried numerous brands and weights. If I rechamber the failed round it goes bang every time. Not the recoil spring (I think) the issue would pop up once in awhile but it has gotten worse. Installed a New OEM spring but that didn’t do a thing. It’s not a tight chamber. I’ve pluck tested the barrel. Tried many different mags but no help. I can’t replicate this, or any issue, while dry firing. Tried upside down, gangster style and it works like a champ.
I’ve got this apart on the bench and it looks great. At this point I’m thinking it might be a timing issue due to a worn over polished part like the trigger bar or sear or disconnect, but that’s a big guess. (and why wouldn’t it chamber???) could this even be a timing issue and what part should I replace? Would lowering or raising the recoil spring weight do anything? I’m not a gunsmith that understands how all the parts interact like some members. I’m more a clever monkey that can follow pictures and directions LOL. I have also been successful at find springs that fly off the bench and getting all the parts back into the gun.
So any thoughts on what to do next?
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Summary: Just fired a round. Ejected case and almost loaded a new one. Trigger and hammer have not reset. Will not second strike, need to rechamber and reset the action.
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Currently about 1:10 rnds will stop the gun like I’ve never experienced before. Gun will fire. Spent round will eject. New round will not fully chamber. Slide will be 1/4 inch out of battery.
• With what ammo ??? Be specific.
The Ammo & Handloading sub-forum has had many complaints about factory ammo lately. Fiocchi and SIG seem to be the primary offenders. This used to be a rare complaint from handloaders that used range "pickup brass", but now it seems to have spread to some select factories with less-than-stellar QC.
Learn more here: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=120538.0
Typical complaint: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=120557.0
• However, I'm not convinced this is 100% an ammo issue. I think you may have an underlying gun issue too. Therefore, I'm not going to move your post to the Ammo sub-forum just yet.
Hope this helps.
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During testing Ammo includes, but not limited to, FMJ 115 gr. WWB, Fiocchi, S&B, NATO spec., Remmy. FMJ 124 gr. Fiocchi. No remanufactured or reloads. Total rounds fired while testing 400+ rounds. All OEM mags. This use to eat anything.
Read links. Added: the ammo is never jammed in the chamber. Can top up the mag with them (after careful inspection) and they work fine.
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During testing Ammo includes, but not limited to, FMJ 115 gr. WWB, Fiocchi, S&B, NATO spec., Remmy. FMJ 124 gr. Fiocchi. No remanufactured or reloads. Total rounds fired while testing 400+ rounds. All OEM mags. This use to eat anything.
• With all due respect, IMHO you are creating your own insolvable problem due to the numbers and types of ammo. You need to test and take separate notes on each type/brand.
• As you have already been told (twice), some new batches of Fiocchi have been noted to result in the exact same issue you are reporting.
• "Jamming" is a symptom that is not always present. The destroyed guns in THIS (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=114239.0) article did not experience "jamming".
• I highly recommend that you start performing you own QC process to ferret out bad ammo before purchase. Poorly made factory ammo is the Number 1 issue reported to the Ammo & Handloading sub-forum these days. (If you buy on-line, then stick with known good sources, such as Federal and CCI.)
In light of your reported issues, at a minimum, you should be doing a Plunk & Spin on multiple samples from each batch. If you have ammo from each of these batches, it's not too late to start.
Hope this helps.
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Not sure I follow your reasoning. If you test multiple types of ammo and have identical results with all brands wouldn’t that indicate it’s not specific to brand or type. It’s what I was taught as the process of elimination. I have also used this same ammo in CZ 75, PCR, P09, Canik clones, and various Sigs, S&W, Taurus and Canik striker fired guns with no issues. With the exception of some Herters all my ammo was purchased pre-2018 (stocked up before retirement on ammo and components)
Went out to the shed to setup my new P10C. Pulled out the Phantom barrel and did some more plunk and spin tests. On my latest test day I was using Winchester 115 FMJ. I shot 4 mags of 10+ rounds each and had 4 failures. The 4 rnds that had to be ejected were reloaded and cycled great. Unloaded one of the preloaded mags and plunked and spun 12 rnds - all good. Tested, top to bottom: Winchester, Federal, Remington, S&B, and a Blazer brass cause that’s what was on the bench. Looked for some Fiocchi but it’s either used up or in the ammo locker. Past test secession with Federal, Remington and S&B have all had identical gun failures.
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My approach would be to address this as two separate problems. Assuming your ammo passes a plunk test as you've said, I would start by cycling(unloaded)the slide without the recoil spring to see if I can feel drag at any point in the cycle.
As for the reset issue, I would remove the sear cage and check the sear/spring for proper tension then disassemble completely and inspect each part. If nothing is obviously broken, I would swap the sear and hammer separately with spares or the oem parts.
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I would remove the sear cage and check the sear/spring for proper tension then disassemble completely and inspect each part. If nothing is obviously broken, I would swap the sear and hammer separately with spares or the oem parts.
X2...also check trigger bar spring and make sure one side isn't between the frame and trigger bar....also ask on Enos forum.
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I would remove the sear cage and check the sear/spring for proper tension then disassemble completely and inspect each part. If nothing is obviously broken, I would swap the sear and hammer separately with spares or the oem parts.
X2...also check trigger bar spring and make sure one side isn't between the frame and trigger bar....also ask on Enos forum.
Trigger bar spring could certainly be out of place if the gun runs fine upside down. But even so, I think the hammer should still manually reset.
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X2...also check trigger bar spring and make sure one side isn't between the frame and trigger bar....also ask on Enos forum.
Phantom doesn’t use the traditional trigger bar spring design. The bar rides on a central stud that is under spring tension. It’s good because you don’t have to worry about setting spring tension, but bad because it creates another bearing surface. Been a lurker on the Enos forum for years and did search it looking for a possible solution.
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My approach would be to address this as two separate problems. Assuming your ammo passes a plunk test as you've said, I would start by cycling(unloaded)the slide without the recoil spring to see if I can feel drag at any point in the cycle.
As for the reset issue, I would remove the sear cage and check the sear/spring for proper tension then disassemble completely and inspect each part. If nothing is obviously broken, I would swap the sear and hammer separately with spares or the oem parts.
Have the sear out on the bench with a slave pin holding it all together. How do I check for proper tension? When I took it out I confirmed the sear was working. Holding off on disassembling it because my eye sight, finger dexterity and patience aren’t what they use to be. My only gunsmithing skill to expand and improve has been the quality and creativity of my cussing.
Going to check the slide tomorrow. I’ve never noticed any friction or galling points. Since it is a polymer frame it doesn’t have full length rail contact just the 1” metal insert rails and the top of the sear cage. I never tried manually cycling the gun without the recoil spring. Love that idea. What happens when I stop it 1/4 before full cycle, like I’m experiencing at the range. Does the trigger and hammer do the same thing? If the failure to reset is because it doesn’t fully cycle would that indicate the sear and trigger bar are in spec? Might have to carve out some time tomorrow from Christmas cookie cooking and test this out.
Edit to add: thinking about this and realized I never examined the barrel and bushing. Might be a point of friction while cycling.
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First reply...
During testing Ammo includes, but not limited to, FMJ 115 gr. WWB, Fiocchi, S&B, NATO spec., Remmy. FMJ 124 gr. Fiocchi. No remanufactured or reloads. Total rounds fired while testing 400+ rounds. All OEM mags. This use to eat anything.
Second reply...
Not sure I follow your reasoning. If you test multiple types of ammo and have identical results with all brands wouldn’t that indicate it’s not specific to brand or type.
Stated that way, then true. But that was not the way you stated the issue originally. Originally, you made it sound like you had no idea which ammo gave which result. That maybe the ammo was even mixed in the mag.
Improperly sized ammo remains the Number 1 reason the slide won't go into battery.
Good luck with your search.
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This part of the original post made it clear to me that it wasn't an ammo issue...
"Tried numerous brands and weights. If I rechamber the failed round it goes bang every time."
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I apologize..I forget the Phantom uses a different lock work.
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I apologize..I forget the Phantom uses a different lock work.
No worries. It’s only the spring setup that is different. When I was looking at this 6 months ago I read this same advice and for 5 minutes was “Yeah, yeah that’s the ticket! Why didn’t I check the spring!”. I actually pulled the gun from the safe before it hit me. Then I poked the heck out of the stud just cause like bbq tongs. Yep, I got my gunsmithing degree from WECSOG!
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My approach would be to address this as two separate problems. Assuming your ammo passes a plunk test as you've said, I would start by cycling(unloaded)the slide without the recoil spring to see if I can feel drag at any point in the cycle.
As for the reset issue, I would remove the sear cage and check the sear/spring for proper tension then disassemble completely and inspect each part. If nothing is obviously broken, I would swap the sear and hammer separately with spares or the oem parts.
Well excellent advice! Thanks Earl. Took a longer harder look at the sear cage and noticed the firing pin lifter spring is missing. Like I don’t even see it. Thankfully I have a work documentation picture from 2013 when I did the original modifications that was there. Otherwise I would have to retract my “all parts back in the gun” claim to fame. So going to head over to CZC tomorrow and get a new sear and spring. Not really sure why not having the FP spring would cause a failure to reset the trigger and hammer or keep the slide from going into battery, but one step at a time I guess. Been a long time since I reassembled a decocker sear cage. Is it possible it fell out when I was putting in the slave pin? Going to have to watch a video or something, but if I recall it’s assembled left to right and the FP spring was the last one in.
I checked the barrel and slide for drag but it’s smooth as butter.
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...very easy for the lifter spring to get dislodged/pinched during reassembly. I can't say for sure, but if the spring stays in the up position, it could lodge in the fpb channel when the slide returns to battery.
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The hammer follow is a bit concerning. I'd be inspecting the hammer hooks and sear closely. The sear spring could be weak but I'd put money on hammer hook rounding. Did you install a trigger in your Phantom? Do you have pre/overtravel screws in the trigger? If so, and if the overtravel screw was set too tight, you could have damaged the sear/hammer hooks. I'm not sure how the hammer follow could happen any other way? Even if you hadn't put a trigger with setscrews in it, the comp hammer could have altered the timing to make the hammer hooks not properly clear the sear on hammer drop.
The fact the slide doesn't go fully into battery is absolutely your missing firing pin block lifter spring. If the firing pin block lifter stay's up, it will hook into the block in the slide and hold the gun out of battery. Here is my exact same issue on my CZ40P (the reason I found this forum!): https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=44280.msg253895#msg253895
I'd like to see pictures of the sear, hammer hooks, and sear spring. I'd also take the parts into CZ Custom for inspection while your getting replacement parts. Good luck!
Cheers,
Toby
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I remember this post! Made a mental post it note that Yes I could run my 40P without the plastic bushing if I get a SS guide rod. At the time there was a lot of debate about the issue.
Heading for CZC this afternoon with all my parts. Definitely (if parts are in stock) buying a new sear and all new cage springs. Going to take a better look at the FP lifter. Have a spare from a 97 conversion to SA so I might drop that in. The trigger is stock but will be installing a 85 Combat trigger that’s been idle and taking up valuable shelf space. That just leaves the the trigger bar.
One of the big head scratches for me is the intermittent failure. When I did a SA conversion it was evident right on the bench that there was a timing issue. This has never failed on the bench to pass every test. At the range it will work great then fail, then work great for awhile.
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UPDATE:
Finally got out to the range and ran a quick flawless 26 rnds at 15yrds. Did some slow and fast even some double taps. All good. Session got cut short because stupid people just have to remind everyone they’re really that dumb. Will run 100 next time and see how it goes.
On the bench I replaced all the sear cage springs, new sear, and installed a used cz 97 trigger (been on the todo list for ages). The recoil spring was already replaced at the start. There was nothing wrong with the FP lifter arm. I’m convinced I lost the spring during disassembly when I installed the slave pin. Ive cleaned and inspected the gun and confident I would have noticed the arm not working. On the other hand I’m honestly surprised by the results. I compared the 2 sears and see no difference.
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