The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: AR-Tenner on January 05, 2023, 04:51:56 PM
-
Hi y'all,
I have finally decided to jump with both feet into the world of a rifle that I have loved since I was 18, and go hard on the Vz.58! In my introduction post in the new member section you can see my reasoning in detail, but one thing I love about the Vz.58, as it can be acquired today (I will be getting a CSA Liberty in 7.62x39 and also acquiring the extended mag release for when I am at my home and ranch in free states), is that it can use AK side mounts for optics. While the CSA mount looks great, I plan to use only MROs and ACOGs on my new stable of 58s, and so want a QD mount that is dedicated for those optics, and does not give me a bunch of rail space I do not need, or necessitate one more attachment system for mounting the optics to the rail.
I love the looks of the Midwest Industries offerings for QD Kalashnikov mounts for the ACOG, mini ACOG, and MRO. They can be found here: https://midwestindustriesinc.com/gen-2-ak-side-mount/
My one worry about these mounts is that they, or at least a subset of them (the MRO mount looks like the most likely to offend in this regard), will be far enough forward when mounted that they interfere with ejection, or just as importantly, loading the rifle with charging strips.
I cannot see from the pictures shown, and I have not been able to find photos or discussions of these used on side-rail-equipped Vz.58s, so I wanted to see whether anyone has firsthand experience with using any of these mounts to attach either an ACOG (TA50 or TA33) or MRO to a Vz.58. I very much hope that they will clear the ejection path and stripper clip guide, but if not, I will look elsewhere.
Thanks so much in advance, and I look forward to hearing from you! :)
-
These that you are viewing are AK mounts and work only with an AKM with a side mount. The side mount on the VZ 58 is DIFFERENT and will not accept side AK mounts.
Also, the ONLY mounts you will find for the special VZ side mount are REAR ORIENTED so that they don't get annihilated by flying cases. Thus, only smaller optics work - e.g. NOT LPVOs. (YES an advantage to the AK).
Also, right now, no one is making/supplying mounts to latch onto the VZ 58 side mount. I'm sure that CZ will make some at some point and Czechpoint will sell them, but the last batch had VERY FLIMSY locking latches that were unsuitable. Also, very nice ones are shown by RS Regulate, but they almost NEVER make them, and when they do, they are sold out quickly.
So... unfortunately, they are for now unavailable.
-
The side rail that CSA offers states that it will allow the use of AK side mounts, although it does also say that most will put optics too far forward. I measured based on pictures and the orientation of where the securing screws go on the Vz.58 receiver, and it looks like the Midwest Industries ACOG mounts will almost certainly not interfere with ejection or loading from charging strips.
-
Not to derail but AK Master is now making a Vz58 version rail: https://akmastermount.com/product/ak-master-mount-optic-mount/
Don't know if it exists IRL or just on their website...
To your question -- I'd stick with the Rear Bias option w/ Midwest Industries...
Vz58 specific side rail mounts that have uppers that span the full length of the side rail are all rear swept AFAIK, which would be a
con to Midwest's full length ACOG that's pretty much straight/90* w/ no bias...
And I think only a couple of RS Regulate/Horse's AK lower mounts are rear biased -- the overwhelming majority are forward biased -- which is the primary issue w/ using AK mounts on the Vz58... The other being differences in mount height over receiver.
Good luck. Let us know what you end up w/ and how it works.
-
The side rail that CSA offers states that it will allow the use of AK side mounts, although it does also say that most will put optics too far forward. I measured based on pictures and the orientation of where the securing screws go on the Vz.58 receiver, and it looks like the Midwest Industries ACOG mounts will almost certainly not interfere with ejection or loading from charging strips.
OK folks -I want to PUBLICALLY thank AR Tenner for SCHOOLING ME! He IS CORRECT. I just took my Midwest Industries AK rail - full length - and it locks in solid on my VZ 58. I had NO idea. I like the MI rails in that they can lock in from the side on an Ak rail. On the VZ adapter you have to start a little further back, but you can STILL get it on even with the side sling mount adapter I use.
One thing I've noticed is that you CAN use the irons UNDER the the MI AK rail - at least the picatinny one, and while its not great, it is doable.
So.. now I have to get a REAR BIASED MI rail
I believe either the rear ACOG or Pic rail is fine. THE ONE drawback to MI is that they will be a bit HIGH, but with my straight SIG MPX stock, I think it is fine, just playing around with a PA SLX MD 20 on the pic rail. Of course I have to get on ethat is rear biased. IF Master mount makes one FOR the VZ 58, I'd get that LONG before RS Regulate decides to make them again.
Thanks again to AR Tenner for schooling me! Now I don't have to mess with RS Regulate or CSA. BTW - I had a CSA mount but the lever was soft as a sponge.
-
IF Master mount makes one FOR the VZ 58, I'd get that LONG before RS Regulate decides to make them again.
Don't think it's a question IF but WHEN... Saw the mount when I was pleased to see someone making a Yugo dustcover w/ finger shelf and checked out rest of offerings. Clicked around some more today an found it as "coming soon" w/ the below picture (so at least some production has occurred since not a rendering) and description when scrolling down towards the bottom page:
(https://cdn.akmastermount.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/VZ-58-optic-mount-pic-5.jpg)
COMING SOON!
VZ58 Version
Specifically designed to fit the factory VZ side rail. Its top Picatinny / ACOG rail is 4 &1/4 inches long, and it weighs 6.0 ounces.
This Gen 2 version has a steel insert at the end of its dovetail channel to provide additional strength. The handle is also upgraded to stronger 7075 aluminum. Now you get the best of both worlds: aluminum construction for weight reduction, but steel for strength where it's needed.
Accepts our optional accessory side rail.
Some have complained about the strength of RS Regulate's rail lockup under harsh conditions due to just being clamp, so AK Master seems to solve that... Haven't dug into it but would be curious to see someone test the RS Regulate vs AK Master on that front specific to the Vz58.
The one piece design also eliminates a potential point of failure and the weight of fasteners.
-
For now I will go with the MI mount. It is a tad higher, but if you mount the optic with no risers, it works. Lock up is very good, and the best part is that it goes on without having to start so far in the rear. I am using a left folding stock AND a sling mount and have little room - but the MI mount still clips on - and is plenty robust. Also, it fits now fine. If I switched up the stock, I'd probably use the Master Mount. I think RS Regulate is no longer in the VZ 58 market.
-
I think RS Regulate is no longer in the VZ 58 market.
I hope that isn't the case. I believe his DARS plate was a joint effort so might be discontinued. But the rest of his items are on rolling production AFAIK... Issue is that it's a small business and they can't meet demand for just the AK stuff... And given Czechpoint's artificial throttling of the Vz58 market (restricting supply to inflate prices? monopoly price gouging?), the biggest issue on the Vz58 front is that not only do you have production costs, you also have carrying costs -- he can produce AK inventory and carry costs for production for a couple months max before selling OR produce Vz58 stuff and carry costs for up to a year... One's much more costly, especially in our current inflationary and increasingly restrictive credit/capital environment.
-
I think RS Regulate is no longer in the VZ 58 market.
I hope that isn't the case. I believe his DARS plate was a joint effort so might be discontinued. But the rest of his items are on rolling production AFAIK... Issue is that it's a small business and they can't meet demand for just the AK stuff... And given Czechpoint's artificial throttling of the Vz58 market (restricting supply to inflate prices? monopoly price gouging?), the biggest issue on the Vz58 front is that not only do you have production costs, you also have carrying costs -- he can produce AK inventory and carry costs for production for a couple months max before selling OR produce Vz58 stuff and carry costs for up to a year... One's much more costly, especially in our current inflationary and increasingly restrictive credit/capital environment.
As I recall, RS Regulate is a side gig for the owner (“Horse”-something, who posts here on occasion). He may have some other primary gig / job that’s covered up with the usual post-coof “supply chain” bs.
Anyway, I have heard that the RS Reg Yugo AK mount will fit on the CSA Vz58 scope rail, FWIW, so you might check on that. The Yugo mount seems to stay in supply, more often than not.
-
As I recall, RS Regulate is a side gig for the owner (“Horse”-something, who posts here on occasion). He may have some other primary gig / job that’s covered up with the usual post-coof “supply chain” bs.
Anyway, I have heard that the RS Reg Yugo AK mount will fit on the CSA Vz58 scope rail, FWIW, so you might check on that. The Yugo mount seems to stay in supply, more often than not.
Yes, it's a side business/passion project. You can easily find his name and LinkedIn if you're curious.
The issue w/ the Yugo mount is it has different dimensions than Vz58 AFAIK...
-
My frustrations with RD Reg are in signing up for notifications and searching for 2.5 years, with nothing. I think I may have missed a release once, but again it is just not available. And I get it that supply and demand and lack of VZ 58 market has hurt the aftermarket. Heck, CSA can't seem to supply side mounts. I did have one, but it was defective as noted. I also had no idea that AK mounts fit and again, AR Tenner healed my ignorance.
-
Report on the rear biased MI rail...
It doesn't really fit well. I thought it was because my VZ 58 CSA rail, BUT the Gen 1 full rail from MI fits VERY well, and I tried the rear biased rail on an AK and it has similar issues. So.. I surmise that its a defective product and it will go back. OR, the Gen 2 Rails fit differently - but i doubt it. Very disappointed because the Gen 1 works SO well, and it fits on from the SIDE as all MI rails do, so you can have any funky thing hanging on the back as a stock and still use it. I may order another.
-
Report on the rear biased MI rail...
It doesn't really fit well. I thought it was because my VZ 58 CSA rail, BUT the Gen 1 full rail from MI fits VERY well, and I tried the rear biased rail on an AK and it has similar issues. So.. I surmise that its a defective product and it will go back. OR, the Gen 2 Rails fit differently - but i doubt it. Very disappointed because the Gen 1 works SO well, and it fits on from the SIDE as all MI rails do, so you can have any funky thing hanging on the back as a stock and still use it. I may order another.
Thanks for the update, and keep us posted.
-
So happy that y'all found out it works, and that there will be another option coming soon! I pulled the (polymer) trigger and picked up a CSA, and while I have not gotten to the ranch to put it through its paces yet, I am blown away at the fit, finish, built quality, and what a cool design the Vz.58 is!
-
I am now waiting on the Mastermount VZ 58 model. Why? I figure that with that ONE mount, I can get a micro prism to sit as low as possible, or put an MD25 on it - it has picatinny and ACOG all in one.
Yes, I have switched my SIG MPX stock to fold on the right side and it does not interfere with the right side gadgets. (Not enough to matter).
BTW - the MPX stocks normally ONLY fold to the left, but I sent mine back to the factory and they actually removed the screw for me. It had been messed up trying to get it off. NOTE: they won't do this anymore. Long story. They PERMANENTLY put the screws in. Why? Dumb.
-
The RS Regulate VZ58 mount is back in stock:
https://atlanticfirearms.com/rs-regulate-vz-304m-optic-mount
https://aimsurplus.com/products/rs-products-ak-304m-rear-biased-base-for-the-czech-vz58-rifle
-
This is GOOD. 20-2 months ago I would have jumped on it and been fine.
I have decided to wait on the Master Mount. Why? I get two mounts in one - low profile ACOG/Micro Prism and 1913. I am finding that the 1913 situation might be best as the sights get in the way of the Micro mounted low on an AK. But nice to have both with no change and no added piece-parts.
If there is one thing about the AK or VZ 58 for that matter is that until you GET the setup and try it out, it may not work for you. Much harder than the AR.
-
This is GOOD. 20-2 months ago I would have jumped on it and been fine.
I have decided to wait on the Master Mount. Why? I get two mounts in one - low profile ACOG/Micro Prism and 1913. I am finding that the 1913 situation might be best as the sights get in the way of the Micro mounted low on an AK. But nice to have both with no change and no added piece-parts.
If there is one thing about the AK or VZ 58 for that matter is that until you GET the setup and try it out, it may not work for you. Much harder than the AR.
You might want to grab the RS Regulate lower mount while you can. They’re low profile, robust and very light, much lighter than the MI mount and the universal upper mounts are relatively easy to find. There’s a reason why RS Regulate mounts are so popular — they’re well proven.
Unless the AK Master Mount is being radically changed, it’s basically just a side rail that’s attached with screws through trigger and hammer pin holes. You would need a side mount regardless. And even if the Master Mount is changed, there’s no telling if it will be up to snuff the first go round. Even the Master Mount rail has gone through a couple of iterations to get the bugs out.
-
https://akmastermount.com/product/ak-master-mount-optic-mount/
The VZ 58 model will be available soon.
I was not referring to the AK screw in side rail.
But I ordered the RSR with mini pic rail. The ability to align properly may be helpful.
-
https://akmastermount.com/product/ak-master-mount-optic-mount/
The VZ 58 model will be available soon.
I was not referring to the AK screw in side rail.
But I ordered the RSR with mini pic rail. The ability to align properly may be helpful.
Well, let us know how the Vz58 Master Mount works when you get it! It’s always good to have more options.
I have at least half a dozen RS Regulate mounts in various configurations on various guns, including a Vz58, and all are very light but rock solid, with no issues. Upper and lower alignment is not difficult, just degrease all the screws and screw holes before assembly and use blue loctite to secure them. I use Loctite 2422 which is shock resistant as well as heat resistant.
-
Sorry I reversed course and bought the RSR! Lol!
-
Another comment. It is indeed a shame that there seems to be little to no support of the VZ 58 in terms of optics coming from the Czech Republic from Czechpoint and other distributors. It obviously is the most economical option, and it’s probably viable, but there seems to be a bad run of them that happened most recently, and I can attest personally that the locking lever was a soft as butter. Keep this in mind when you order it because if you order from a place where it’s hard to return obviously that’s a problem because I did return mine and checkpoint honored the refund. If I wanted such, I would wait on Czechpoint to provide.
-
Sorry I reversed course and bought the RSR! Lol!
A bird in the hand.... I picked up 2 of them while available.
-
Another comment. It is indeed a shame that there seems to be little to no support of the VZ 58 in terms of optics coming from the Czech Republic from Czechpoint and other distributors. It obviously is the most economical option, and it’s probably viable, but there seems to be a bad run of them that happened most recently, and I can attest personally that the locking lever was a soft as butter. Keep this in mind when you order it because if you order from a place where it’s hard to return obviously that’s a problem because I did return mine and checkpoint honored the refund. If I wanted such, I would wait on Czechpoint to provide.
I never have heard anything good about the two (Czech-made?) scope mounts sold by Czechpoint.
-
Another comment. It is indeed a shame that there seems to be little to no support of the VZ 58 in terms of optics coming from the Czech Republic from Czechpoint and other distributors. It obviously is the most economical option, and it’s probably viable, but there seems to be a bad run of them that happened most recently, and I can attest personally that the locking lever was a soft as butter. Keep this in mind when you order it because if you order from a place where it’s hard to return obviously that’s a problem because I did return mine and checkpoint honored the refund. If I wanted such, I would wait on Czechpoint to provide.
I never have heard anything good about the two (Czech-made?) scope mounts sold by Czechpoint.
Glad to see Master Mount enter the market!
-
Another comment. It is indeed a shame that there seems to be little to no support of the VZ 58 in terms of optics coming from the Czech Republic from Czechpoint and other distributors. It obviously is the most economical option, and it’s probably viable, but there seems to be a bad run of them that happened most recently, and I can attest personally that the locking lever was a soft as butter. Keep this in mind when you order it because if you order from a place where it’s hard to return obviously that’s a problem because I did return mine and checkpoint honored the refund. If I wanted such, I would wait on Czechpoint to provide.
The Czech/Euro solution appears to be the railed top covers combo-ed with the taller front handguard when needed. Have seen some side rails w/ deflectors for variable scope magnified optics, but that seems to be the exception not the rule -- since they use these primarily as carbines, not rifles, which coincidentally was the intent of the design...
Remember the side rail/being drilled for such only became standard on new production CSA rifles around or after 2016 IIRC.
And yes, the night vision setup of the military models had a side rail, but those are rare as hens teeth and a different side rail setup than current consumer production.
-
I have decided to go with the RS Reg rail with mini 1913. I am also running a 1913 rear end with an MCX Minimalist stock. I have a PA Micro Prism on an ADM detachable mount, so the Pic rail is handy IF I need to pull the optic and somehow run it on the front end. Not optimal, but OK in a pinch. It can also then handle a micro and the front end makes more sense.
Is it exactly the right height? Almost - I suppose it might be best on the ACOG mount, tut there is no flexibility, and it is better for a more heads up hold and prone is a tad better also. You cannot run the Prism too far to the rear.
The RS Reg mount is so well made and seems easy to adjust WITHOUT a tool - so that is one feature I like better than the MM. I still wish MI would make a VZ 58 mount as they MOUNT FROM the side - so you can do whatever you want with a folder.
-
Is it exactly the right height? Almost - I suppose it might be best on the ACOG mount, tut there is no flexibility, and it is better for a more heads up hold and prone is a tad better also. You cannot run the Prism too far to the rear.
The railed topcover and handguards were designed for inline -- typically in GWOT, most I've seen by soldiers had night vision or magnifier on rear top cover and then a forward mounted larger Aimpoint red dot, CompM4/CompM5/Pro/similar. You lose integral back-up/standard irons with this setup however, but can mount a more traditional M4-style stock with a straighter stock angle and potentially some sort of add'l backup sight.
For most modern optic height and stock setup -- direct inline if not cantilever inline, side mount rails are best, and perhaps allow for a faster return to irons if needed; however, and again, you can't do an inline forward and rear setup... But could do helmet-mount NOD and IR laser (not always ideal however if your opponents also have NODs and peer/near-peer as lasers point both ways...).
(And could probably combo low mag prism on removable side rail and low forward mount cowitness red dot, but cheek weld for one or the other would be suboptimal...)
Ultimately, the Vz58 does allow you to ultimately configure it how you want it, but you really need to pick a route/setup and stick to it -- you can't have your cake it and eat it too, or cheaply switch configurations, like with other competing platforms (e.g., M4/AR15, etc. newer systems).
And I know you're speaking just to your set-up, but just noting for anyone else chewing on this.
-
True on mounting optics higher for a more 'heads up' use of an optic - which is a valuable thing in many circumstances. The AR for whatever reason ended up with a higher set of sights even though it was invented when soldiers only used irons outside of sniper or DM roles. So... the options are more and also more standardized, making the AR a much more flexible platform.
The AK mounting options are actually a bit better than the VZ 58 because the sights are slightly higher in relation to the stock, so that you can get a straight stock AND use irons or go higher based on need. The other factor is that the AK has much more AM support than the 58.
The VZ 58 is least flexible, except that the rear end is much more adaptable. The low sights present a problem for stocks in that if I use a higher stock and high optic, I'm OK until I need to shed the optic for whatever reason. Also, if i want a straight stock, which is better for recoil, I can end up with a harder time using irons. Some ditch irons altogether and move on. I won't. I don't mind using an optic on the side rail as primary, because I can dismount it and use the irons pretty quickly. For now the SIG Minimalist seems to work OK. Not perfect. The MI Alpha stock might be optimum, but it is too heavy for my use. Someone needs to come up with LIGHT folding option that adjusts cheek height easily. But then you are back to AM support.
Possibly the biggest problem for the VZ 58 is the inability to mount a long rail over the top cover like an AK. This really limits our choices.
-
True on mounting optics higher for a more 'heads up' use of an optic - which is a valuable thing in many circumstances. The AR for whatever reason ended up with a higher set of sights even though it was invented when soldiers only used irons outside of sniper or DM roles. So... the options are more and also more standardized, making the AR a much more flexible platform.
The AK mounting options are actually a bit better than the VZ 58 because the sights are slightly higher in relation to the stock, so that you can get a straight stock AND use irons or go higher based on need. The other factor is that the AK has much more AM support than the 58.
The VZ 58 is least flexible, except that the rear end is much more adaptable. The low sights present a problem for stocks in that if I use a higher stock and high optic, I'm OK until I need to shed the optic for whatever reason. Also, if i want a straight stock, which is better for recoil, I can end up with a harder time using irons. Some ditch irons altogether and move on. I won't. I don't mind using an optic on the side rail as primary, because I can dismount it and use the irons pretty quickly. For now the SIG Minimalist seems to work OK. Not perfect. The MI Alpha stock might be optimum, but it is too heavy for my use. Someone needs to come up with LIGHT folding option that adjusts cheek height easily. But then you are back to AM support.
Possibly the biggest problem for the VZ 58 is the inability to mount a long rail over the top cover like an AK. This really limits our choices.
I don’t think you can get the “perfect” rifle for all circumstances and criteria. As far as a 7.62x39 combat rifle, the CZ Bren 2 comes close — except that you can’t get parts or service from CZ!! Also, they had some issues with cycling, that could have been solved easily if CZ was doing its job, which they have not. So the Bren 2 is decidedly imperfect as a SD rifle.
Anyway, I used to fret about the Vz58’s iron sights giving me a crick in my neck when I tried to co-witness with a 1x RDS and a straight AR15 butt stock. There are no taller iron sights readily available for the Vz58. No way to easily fix that problem without just going to the usual low slung Vz58 butt stock, which accentuates muzzle flip — an even worse problem than the occasional crick in the neck looking through the irons, at least IMO.
In the end, I said screw the iron sights and put on a PA 3x prism scope with an ACSS reticle and have never been happier. The optic is short enough that it doesn’t get hit by ejected shells and it mounts easily with a RS Reg unit. The ACSS reticle is phenomenal for hitting from close in to distance. Even if the battery were to die, it still has the big etched reticle which is easily visible. If I want a 1x option, I can easily add an RDS to the rail atop the 3x. If for some reason I want to go back to the irons, the RS Regulate mount is quickly removable.
https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-3x32mm-gen-iii-prism-scope-with-acss-cqb-300blk-762x39mm-reticle
PA also makes a more compact newer generation 3x ACSS prism, but it doesn’t have the top rail.
Sometimes the “compromise” is better than the original solution. I think in this day and age of reliable and durable 1x + electronic optics, BUISs are not all that critical, especially with easily removable optic mounts.
BTW, I have seen some scope mounts for the Vz58 from the Czech Republic for “full size scopes,” complete with a plastic shield to protect against dings from ejected cases, but they look pretty heavy and awkward.
You can’t have everything…
-
I'll say this - the company that can build a 1913 stock which can sit low, but have an adjustable riser that is easy to adjust and can adjust LOP AND be 16 oz or less can present a huge advantage to the AK and VZ crowd.
-
I'll say this - the company that can build a 1913 stock which can sit low, but have an adjustable riser that is easy to adjust and can adjust LOP AND be 16 oz or less can present a huge advantage to the AK and VZ crowd.
Stormwerks makes a couple of straight-line stock / receiver adaptors for the Vz58 that allow up & down adjustment of the butt stock, either with a picatinny or bolt on (e.g.: an AR buffer with a pig nose adaptor) interface. Of course there are many butt stocks that have adjustable cheek risers & LOP.
https://stormwerkz.com/stock-adapters/vz-58-stock-brace-adapter-type-5-1913-interface/
https://stormwerkz.com/stock-adapters/vz-58-stock-adapter-type-3-straight/
-
I'll say this - the company that can build a 1913 stock which can sit low, but have an adjustable riser that is easy to adjust and can adjust LOP AND be 16 oz or less can present a huge advantage to the AK and VZ crowd.
There are several buffer tube options that fit the bill, but yes, not aware of a 1913 one -- however, there are buffer tube to 1913 adapters.
-
Buffer tubes are large and round so they put your cheek too high typically - especially in the VZ.
And… can fold. The strike industries stock is almost there.
-
Buffer tubes are large and round so they put your cheek too high typically - especially in the VZ.
And… can fold. The strike industries stock is almost there.
True, but you can always run a slimmer stock on the tube and/or can also often cant the gun 15-20* into your face (kick bottom out from you face) for less face smashing to get decent iron sight acquisition... If prone, you can often cant your head more atop the stock to get necessary alignment while keeping your weapon and sight system vertical.
And yes, buffer tubes are rarely ever able to fold to 180* to lock open on universal hinges on non-AR platforms...
Like all things, there's compromises that can be made -- your call on whether they're acceptable.