Post by: recondoc on March 04, 2005, 12:17:00 AM
I was actually looking at the NEF Handi-Rifle as they are putting out a 7.62X39 barrel for it this year and I don't need much more than a single shot for my doin's. Unfortunatel, I just found out that they are going to make the bore diameter .308 rather than .311. With the difference of the .003, it will ruin any ideas of accuracy from surplus ammo. That's the same thing that Ruger initially did with the mini-thirty rifles and it got them a tragic reputation.
Does anyone know if the bore on the 527 carbine is .308 or .311? If it will shoot the cheap stuff (as I am an awfully cheap bastard) I'll probably start looking to buy one.
Any other information on the pros and cons of the nifty looking little carbines is highly appreciated in advance.
Thanks,
Doc
Post by: DWARREN123 on March 04, 2005, 01:56:35 PM
Post by: Dos on March 05, 2005, 09:56:38 AM
www.findarticles.com/p/ar...i_n9333471 (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3623/is_200311/ai_n9333471)
Post by: n-300RN on March 08, 2005, 07:41:01 AM
p201.ezboard.com/fczechpi...=659.topic (http://p201.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm6.showMessage?topicID=659.topic)
Second, I believe you will be very happy indeed with the 527. I have no experience with WOLF 154 grain bullets but have heard they do not open up well on deer at the velocities produced by the 7.62x39.
Incidently, WOLF 123 grain HP's produced superb accuracy in my rifle. I'm still trying to figure that out. It is ammo that is decried by so many people on Forums, yet it performs so well in my rifle I am forced to question whether people have had much experience with it. Granted, I don't get the same accuracy from my AK, but of course the AK has open sights with a very short sight radius, and the rifle itself is suspect when it comes to accuracy.
Read that post above. It pretty much sums up my experience with the rifle. I like it!
Post by: LouB on March 09, 2005, 11:07:46 AM
Lou
Post by: n-300RN on March 12, 2005, 11:10:30 AM
Have you ever shot any critters with the 150 or 170 grain bullets in the 7.62x39? I'm curious how the bullets performed.
Originally I was tending toward using the "heavies", then read an article in Gun Digest on the use of the 7.62x39 in the Mini-30. The author indicated that he did not get much expansion using a heavy bullet, and the reports I've read about the 154 grain Wolf ammo on deer scared me off of it, too.
But your 170 FP seems like it should do well seeing that the velocities should hover around those produced by its intended rifle the .30-30.
Incidently, the two deer shot with my CZ 527 were shot with 123 Hornady handloads and bullets opened up very well, with complete penetration on both animals.
Post by: LouB on March 14, 2005, 05:42:45 PM
Lou
Post by: blackwing1 on April 12, 2005, 01:07:17 PM
I used it this fall (2004) for hunting in northern Minnesota, thinking that in my friend's 40 acres that I wasn't going to get a shot long enough to justify using the .30-06. But a nice big doe popped up on the FAR side of a clearing, and I had a clear, standing broadside shot at her. I took the shot, but she whirled just as I pulled the trigger. She flinched, hunched up, and took a dozen bounds into the swamp behind the clearing. I waited 10 minutes, and paced the 125 yards across the clearing to where she'd been when I fired. Found a big blood splash about 2-1/2 feet up on a tree trunk, and followed the blood trail into the swamp. I found her lying down about 20 yards into the swamp, still breathing but not able to move. After I put a round into the neck, I started to drag her out to some high ground...the front leg almost came off. I had hit her high and towards the front, and the bullet had impacted directly on the big ball joint in the shoulder.
Later, when I got her skinned (skun?), I found that the ball joint had basically exploded...there was nothing left but shards of bone. The bullet continued on down the inside of the rib cage, nicking one of the ribs as it entered, and exited out through the abdomen, with pretty fair-sized hole indicating (at least, to me) that the hollow-point Russian round had done a pretty good job of expanding. I didn't recover the slug, since it had been left in the swamp.
I'm pretty confident with this round now, and I'm sure that if I'd hit where I was aiming (heart/lung broadside) that she wouldn't have gone more than a few steps before dropping. Even with the poor shot placement, she didn't travel more than about 40 yards total before falling.
Here's an interesting problem. I purchased another Ruger for my wife, she having tried it at the range, and wanting something a little nicer than the SKS she regularly shoots. This second one won't group for spit. Even using the Federal ammo, it won't do better than a 4" group at 100 yards, and with the Russian (or even some of the old Chinese stuff) they open up into 8" or 9" "groups"...more like "patterns". This is when I started hitting some web sites, and learned that this is considered "normal" for a Mini-30. Even calling Ruger didn't help. I guess I just got lucky with the first one.
So I'm going to trade the second Mini-30 (plus a little cash, I'm sure) for a CZ 527 in this caliber. I'm happy to see that people have fairly good accuracy with a wide variety of ammo in this firearm.
Post by: n-300RN on April 14, 2005, 05:12:43 AM
Your description of performance is very interesting. It doesn't surprise me. The 7.62x39 is a very good deer caliber.
Yes, you got lucky in regards to your Ruger Mini. They are generally pretty poor performers accuracy-wise, and yes, as you noted, sending a Mini-30 back to Ruger due to poor accuracy is likely to result in the gun being sent back to you with a note that nothing was done to it because it is "within spec" or some similar bowing out. Keep the accurate Mini you have. It is a rare bird!
As for the CZ 527, I think you will be very satisfied. Some older magazines have problems feeding reliably, but CZ seems to have fixed that with recent production mags.
My CZ 527 will regularly shoot 2 1/2 inch to 3 inch 5-shot groups at 200 yards and this not only says something about the accuracy of the 527, but also the supposedly lousy accuracy of the Wolf 122 HP load I'm shooting!!
I haven't shot much game with mine, just 2 deer, 1 coyote, several ground squirrels and now 2 60-lb or so stray dogs but the rifle is a performer and all but the deer were shot with the Wolf HP factory round. No problems at all.
Get on board with a 527.
I warn you though, it may result in some domestic disturbances. You and your wife may be tempted to squabble over who gets to shoot it and hunt with it!!
On second thought, preserve the peace.
Buy two!!
Post by: blackwing1 on April 14, 2005, 11:21:42 AM
Thanks for the comments. My only problem now is budget. My wife has been promised the (first, accurate) Mini-30, so I'm kind of hoping that if I tell her that a bolt-action has a little more recoil than the gas-operated Mini, she might let it go. On the other hand, once she gets to shoot it, I'll probably have a problem. If I've got to buy two of these little pups, we're going to be eating dish-rag soup for a few months.
I've got the CZ on order through a local Gander Mountain (they had to bring it in from a different retail store, so it's going to take about a week). Does CZ still ship them with only one magazine? I understand from the various web sites that it's NOT possible to load single rounds, because of the controlled-feed Mauser-style extractor. But I'd like to have a spare magazine or two on hand, and the cost from CZ's web site is something like $37. Are there any after-market magazines (that actually work) for these rifles? Also, I was wondering if CZ's scope rings mount solidly. I've taken my 1.5x-4.5x scope off the (second, bad, trade-goods) Mini-30, and was planning on putting it on the 527. It's got a 1" tube, and I noticed that CZ sells rings with either the 1" or 30mm size opening. Do you think that this combination of scope/rifle/caliber is pretty good? I certainly like it on my Mini (even though the front sight sticks up into the scope's sight picture on low-power settings). It's a pretty compact little scope, so I'm hoping that it will fit between the CZ rings.
Also, I've never owned a rifle with a "set" trigger before. After reading the CZ manual from the web site, they basically say to use it only from the bench, and to carefully (not sneezing, I'm assuming) put on the safety, eject the magazine, work the bolt, and then dry-fire if you've set the trigger but later decide you don't want to fire. Can I assume that the point of impact won't vary, depending on which trigger (set, or regular pull) that is used? Again, that's assuming that the operator does his/her part in keeping sight alignment/sight picture intact while moving the trigger back.
I've never bought any of the Wolf 154gr soft-points, but I think I'll give them a try in the new CZ. Does point of impact change much between the Wolf 123gr-HP's and the 154gr-SP's?
Thanks again for the comments.
Post by: blackwing1 on April 14, 2005, 01:21:40 PM
Sorry, forgot to put this in my earlier post. I had e-mailed CZ before ordering my rifle regarding the bore size. Here's the response they sent:
---------------------
From: Mike Eagleshield [mailto:gunsmith@cz-usa.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 5:06 AM
To: Info
Subject: RE: FROM CZ-USA WWW - Ammunition/performance of CZ 527 in 7.62x39
The 527 carbine in 7.62 x 39mm (M43) will have a .311" bore and will handle all 7.62 ammo.
---------------------
It's the major reason I went with the CZ rather than the KBI/Charles Daly rifle, since the Daly response was that theirs is chambered for the US-standard 0.308" bore.
Post by: n-300RN on April 14, 2005, 07:02:17 PM
The gun does come with one mag. I bit the bullet and bought two spares. I can single load with mine just fine. The extractor snaps over the chamber round's rim no problem. I know of no after market mags.
The scope power sounds great. It should provide excellent range for many uses, particularly on deer.
I like the set trigger and have used it on ground squirrels. POI is not effected in any way.
I have no experience with the Wolf 154 grain ammo. I have heard/read mixed results with it on deer, with the repeated problem being little or no expansion. I don't use them myself.
I am not sure what the difference in POI will be between the various bullet weights. My handload I used on the deer prints essentially to same POI as the Wolf HP's of similar weight. With the experience I have had on the two dogs I shot, and with your and others comments on the performance of the Wolf HP's, I will not hesitate to use them on deer in the future.
Post by: blackwing1 on April 15, 2005, 04:53:16 AM
I've got to thank you once again for your information. It's greatly appreciated. I guess I'll just have to grit my teeth, and buy a couple of the CZ spare magazines, just to have on hand, as well as their 1"/16mm dovetail scope mounts.
Once I get it all set up and sighted-in, I'll let you know how it went.
Post by: n-300RN on April 15, 2005, 05:39:07 AM
One option that appeals to me for some of the shooting we do here would be a .311 round nose 150 grain bullet, driven as hard as I could safely from the rifle. We have a few sports where we have blinds and occaisional elk in the vacinity, and such a load, tested first to make sure the bullet opened up properly, I would not hesitate to use on them.
Regardless, the gun and ammo is a great pair for deer, pig, bigger varmints, stray dogs and of course targets.
And with Russian steelcased ammo, I don't even have to crawl thru the bushes looking for brass!!
Post by: falup on April 20, 2005, 07:51:55 PM
every time i've seen mags at gunshows they want more than direct order.
Post by: n-300RN on April 21, 2005, 06:26:18 AM
I get a bit of a chuckle when I read of guys waiting to get one of these things till the 6.8 Remington version is released {if ever}.
As you have obviously found out, the "good ole' days" are here and now.
When in the past hundred years has a deer-capable rifle been sold that shoots ammunition that is 5 to 10 times less expensive to shoot than any other deer rifle!
For decades, I was so biased against the 7.62x39 {not accurate, too weak for deer, steel cases cause malfunctions and all the rest of the nonesense spewed about the caliber over the years...} that I avoided it like a disease.
I'm glad I finally found it while it is still dirt cheap to shoot!!
Post by: falup on April 22, 2005, 12:41:19 PM
at about 1.1" at 100yds. 78deg 10 mph wind sunny.
9x scope looking right into the eve sun. even beat the wolf effect match. per the dust cloud raised on the back stop w/ effect and hp the bullets opened up on impact.
also tried the silver and brown bear.
Post by: falup on April 22, 2005, 12:46:36 PM
bores. the accuracy should be better than the .308 as they will engage the rifling better and maintain bore centerline
Post by: blackwing1 on May 09, 2005, 07:10:53 AM
Well, the weather's been pretty lousy here in Minnesnowta, and we hadn't been able to get out to the range for a couple of weeks. I got a set of Millet "high" scope mounts for the CZ527, and mounted a Bushnell 1.5x-4.5x by 32mm scope.
I won't ever let anybody tell me that the 7.62x39mm round is inherently inaccurate now. After some rough-and-ugly boresighting, we got the scope dialed in at 100 yards, and started to print groups. My wife, a better rifle shot than I am, managed to put two consecutive 3-round, 1" groups onto the paper, with one of them having two of the holes punched almost on top of each other, and the third round just a smidgen away. Her other best group was just a trio of hole punched right around the target's center. Mostly she was punching 1-1/2" to 2" groups.
My best shooting was about 2" to 2-1/2" groups, I'm sorry to say. I didn't do any better with the set trigger than with the normal trigger, which is so smooth and crisp that it's a joy to shoot. We tried a wide variety of ammo, and didn't find any appreciable difference in either accuracy or point of impact. Wolf 123-gr hollowpoint, Wolf 123-gr FMJ, Chinese steel-cored-copper-washed, PMC 123-gr FMJ, Federal 123-gr soft-point, it didn't really matter what we fed it, the CZ just gobbled them up and spit them out without much variation.
We shot so much that we had to stop and let the barrel cool down for a while, and we switched to a Chinese SKS. With the lousy open sights on that rifle, I couldn't print better than an 8" group, fired from a standing position using the sling. I hadn't bothered to remove the bayonet (the ChiCom triangle type), so it was a little muzzle-heavy. My wife really likes shooting the SKS because the combination of weight and gas-action reduces the recoil to essentially nothing. She shot so much with the CZ, though, that she ended up with a bruised shoulder. We're going to buy a shoulder-strap-type recoil pad that she can use, since I don't want to add a pad to the CZ (it fits pretty well as-is, and when I hunt in the Minnesota fall, I'm usually wearing enough clothing while sitting in the stand to add some thickness there, and I don't want to push the scope too far away).
I'm just really pleased with this little carbine. It almost looks like a miniature rifle, it's so short and light. The Mauser-type action is smooth, and seems to be getting smoother with use. The only quibble I've got with the rifle is the magazine's protruding from the stock, and the magazine's release button being a little hard to manipulate while pulling the magazine from it.
Do you know if anybody makes a flush-fit (even if it's only a 3-round) magazine for these? It's about the only thing I'd change on it. All in all, it's going to be one of my favorite short-range (less than 150 yard) shooters.
Blackwing1
Post by: falup on May 10, 2005, 08:28:11 PM
i'd be in for a set of rings and 3-4 mags
Post by: DWARREN123 on May 11, 2005, 07:41:28 AM
The price for a extra mag is worth it in my opinion.
Have tried some Vympel (sp) hunting ammo (Russian) 123 sp, and it performed great, I got 1" to 1 1/4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards and wore out a one gallon jug at 300 yards.
When most people compare the 7.62X39 to the 30-30 win they forget that the 30-30 case is as long (almost) as a loaded 7.62X39 round.
Post by: falup on May 13, 2005, 06:40:20 PM
and also,except in the savage 88, loaded w/ round nose bullets which lose a lot effectiveness after 150yds.. Not
to mention accuracy that wasn't there to start w/.
I would prefer a 30mm 1.5-6x scope for most actual use,
or possibly even a scout scope setup. Though this thing is accurate enough to justify a bigger scope for non moving stuff.