The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Philintheblanks on May 31, 2023, 07:25:13 PM
-
Just idle thinking, which, as a retiree, I do a lot. Today I was moving some projectiles to a better location and wondered why a ',38 Special' uses .35 caliber bullets (same as .357 Magnum) and a '.44 Magnum or Special' use .43 caliber bullets. Historically, was there a reason for using improper or imprecise naming conventions?
Phil
-
The bullets use to fit at the same diameter as the case diameter and bullets were outside lubed. The bullets were of a heeled design. Something like the 22 L.R. When the 44 American became the 44 Russian the bullet diameter was decreased to fit inside the case and the bullet had internal lube grooves. The new design didn't pick up sticky random debris like the outside lubed bullets.
-
I understood the naming convention in the late 1800's was based on the case diameter, and the 38/357 cases are still 0.380" diameter. By the time the .357 was invented (mid-1930's) they had changed the convention to name them after the bore diameter.
The 38Spcl case is so big because it started out as a black powder round. That cartridge is really an ancient thing. When the 357M was invented they had to do something to keep fools from shooting the new high pressure cartridge in the older, low pressure 38 pistols. So the case was elongated to physically eliminate the possibility.
Cartridge history is a very interesting. I urge you to read the several paragraphs in your load manual that accompany each cartridge.
-
Historically there was no standard or naming convention.
Car names aren't standardized, either. Neither are airplanes or computer parts. The names are just names and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
-
Thanks for the replies and the information! I had always thought that projectile or bore diameter dictated the name of the caliber. Now I understand. I don't even want to think about bottleneck cartridges, 8)
Phil
-
Marketing decisions often involved. Gotta make ya boolets sound sexy! ;)
-
Marketing decisions often involved. Gotta make ya boolets sound sexy! ;)
I'm always amazed that brassier marketers haven't renamed the cup sizes starting at C or D. O0
-
Caliber (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber)
-
I still haven't figured out how the 38-40wcf was named.
Bill
-
I still haven't figured out how the 38-40wcf was named.
Bill
38-40 rolls off the tongue better than 40-38. Seriously.
-
38-40, "whatever it takes" ;D.
-
The first thing you should understand; there IS no "naming convention" for calibers, new OR old. It's totally marketing, from start to finish. Understand that, and you'll be fine.
-
The first thing you should understand; there IS no "naming convention" for calibers, new OR old. It's totally marketing, from start to finish. Understand that, and you'll be fine.
this more or less.
But if you really want to know, you will have dust off your google-fu and start reading.
-
Marketing decisions often involved. Gotta make ya boolets sound sexy! ;)
I'm always amazed that brassier marketers haven't renamed the cup sizes starting at C or D. O0
Certain brands are known for "vanity sizing" (calling it one letter size bigger than it really is). I found that out years ago setting up the details for a model photoshoot (wardrobe trying to copy a Gil Elvgren painting). That is Victoria's real Secret.
-
Caliber is simply: Barrel (most of them) have rifling with hills (called lands) and valley (called grooves). There isn't any standard for caliber, like I said it's a name for marketing, so the number could be the diameter of the bullet, the diameter at the grooves or the diameter at the lands, or even a round up or down number. For example the .308 Norma Magnum and .300 Norma Magnum actually have the exact same caliber, but one have a round down number as the name to differentiate one from the other. In reality the .300 Norma Magnum is a bigger casing ''neck down'' to fit a smaller .308 caliber bullet. The end result is a light faster bullet, popular for long range shooting.
-
Marketing decisions often involved. Gotta make ya boolets sound sexy! ;)
I'm always amazed that brassier marketers haven't renamed the cup sizes starting at C or D. O0
They have, and have done so for most clothing sizes actually: https://www.kirbyplasticsurgery.com/blog/vanity-bra-sizing-how-popular-bra-retailers-are-misleading-women/
A Bigger Bra for Smaller Breasts?
Professional bra fitters have also noticed this evolution in bra size labeling. A 34 band size may now measure a few inches larger than it did years ago, while cup size has decreased, causing women to need a larger cup size. Some women are delighted to feel that they are “thin” enough to wear a smaller band size, or busty enough to be a C instead of a B. Other women are simply confused as to why their traditional size no longer works for them.
-
An interesting read is the origins of “gauge” as it relates to firearms.
C
-
One of my favorites is the 307Win. It's simply a 308Win cartridge with a rim for use in lever action rifles. The bullet diameter is exactly the same, but bullets with pointed tips are not to be used.
-
I must say I was expecting this thread to go a different way.
I was hoping to see why for example -
1. Why is it called the .38 "Special" when it isn't really?
2. Why is it called the .44 "Russian" when its an American gun?
3. Why is it called 9mm "Short"?
4. Why is it called 30-30?
5. Why is it called .300 "Blackout"
6. Why does a .38 Special round fit in a .357 revolver?
7. What do the French call their 5.56 ammo that the FAMAS needs so that it doesn't suck?
8. Why did they call hollowpoint rounds "dum-dums"
You know, gun trivia only people like us really care about.
How many did you actually know instead of having to google it?
-
Ok now you have to answer these for us…..
C
I must say I was expecting this thread to go a different way.
I was hoping to see why for example -
1. Why is it called the .38 "Special" when it isn't really?
2. Why is it called the .44 "Russian" when its an American gun?
3. Why is it called 9mm "Short"?
4. Why is it called 30-30?
5. Why is it called .300 "Blackout"
6. Why does a .38 Special round fit in a .357 revolver?
7. What do the French call their 5.56 ammo that the FAMAS needs so that it doesn't suck?
8. Why did they call hollowpoint rounds "dum-dums"
You know, gun trivia only people like us really care about.
How many did you actually know instead of having to google it?
-
The guy/company that comes up with the idea, new or not, gets to name them.
Sometimes if means something to them and not to us (like personalized license plates.)
.30-06 - .30 caliber, 1906 variant. It replaced the .30-03 that the early Springfield 03 rifles were chambered for.
.30 Remington. A .30 caliber cartridge close to the Winchester .30-30 in performance but with a case made for pump and semi auto deer rifles instead of a rimmed case for lever action rifles.
.45 acp (and a lot of other acp tagged cartridges - Automatic Colt Pistol.)
If you sit down with a book on cartridge development/history it can be pretty wild sometimes.
-
I must say I was expecting this thread to go a different way.
I was hoping to see why for example -
1. Why is it called the .38 "Special" when it isn't really? More powder/velocity than the older .38 caliber revolver cartridges.
2. Why is it called the .44 "Russian" when its an American gun? To let people know it wouldn't take a .44 Special cartridge and because some were made for shipment/sale to Russa but stuff ends up staying here, or returning here anyway sometimes.
3. Why is it called 9mm "Short"? Because they wanted to let people know not to use it in 9MM Luger or to buy 9Mm Luger to go in their new 9MM Short semi auto pistol.
4. Why is it called 30-30? Thirty caliber bullet with 30 grains of black powder in the case. The .30-40 was a .30 caliber bullet with 40 grains of black powder in it. We don't use black powder in them anymore but the case is the same size and fits the rifles, even the old ones.
5. Why is it called .300 "Blackout" About the same as the .300 Whisper. Not sure why they renamed it unless they didn't want to catch grief (and maybe a lawsuit) from the designer/developer of the .300 Whisper. J.D. something, the last name escaped my old memory right now.
6. Why does a .38 Special round fit in a .357 revolver? Because the case is shorter. .38 Special came about because the old .38 Short, .38 Colt, .38 Long, etc. weren't powerful enough at the time. The .357 Magnum was developed because many people didn't think the .38 Special was powerful enough. So, how to keep someone from buying .357 magnum ammo and putting it in their old .38 Special revolver and blowing it up? Make the case just a bit longer so the cartridge wouldn't chamber in the .38 Special (and even older/weaker revolvers).
7. What do the French call their 5.56 ammo that the FAMAS needs so that it doesn't suck?
8. Why did they call hollowpoint rounds "dum-dums" They weren't. Dum dums comes from the attempts made by English soldiers to make their lead rifle bullets more effective by using a knife to cut an X across the point of the soft lead bullets. When you shoot people (often hopped up on drugs or their belief a bullet won't kill them you want to do more damage faster because even someone who is dying can still kill you if he can still move/act.
You know, gun trivia only people like us really care about.
How many did you actually know instead of having to google it?
Is the FAMAS as big a disaster as a lot of the French designed/made guns in the last 150 years?
Where's Wobbly? I bet he knows all this stuff.
-
I'm glad I started this thread. The answers, and new questions are great!
Phil
-
As M1A-4ME mentions the designer gets to be the namer, sort of. The 38-40 was originally the 38 W.C.F, same with the 44-40 being a 44 W.C.F.. The 38 Special is actually the 38 S&W Special. A more modern example would be the 40, which is actually the 40 S&W round and so registered with SAMMI. Other firearms manufactures tend to not like marking their guns with other makers (the competition) names. This seems more prevalent with pistols than rifles but isn't exclusive to either. Sometimes different makers offer the same basic cartridge with a slight difference but with their name on it. The 32 S&W Long and the 32 Colt are the same cartridge case the difference was in the bullet offered. One makers cartridge used a flat point bullet the other a round nose bullet. Muscle flexing by different manufactures to add to the confusion.
-
Where's Wobbly? I bet he knows all this stuff.
Wobbly done got old and forgetful. ;D
-
.380 ACP (or AUTO in the USA) has the name 9mm Browning Short in Europe to differentiate it from the 9mm Browning Long which was introduced a few years earlier (not from the 9x19 Parabellum)
-
Dum-Dum bullets are so-called because expanding bullets were given the name Dum-dum, or dumdum, after an early British example produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal, near Calcutta, India by Captain Neville Bertie-Clay.There were several expanding bullets produced by this arsenal for the .303 British cartridge, including soft-point and hollow-point designs. These were not the first expanding bullets, however; hollow-point expanding bullets were commonly used for hunting thin-skinned game in express rifles as early as the mid-1870s. Neither was the .303 the first military round with this trait, the old .577 Snider bullet had a hollow core, leaving wounds known for being particularly nasty.The use of the term "Dum-dum" applied to expanding bullets other than the early .303 designs is considered slang by most ammunition and ballistics sources.
-
.380 ACP (or AUTO in the USA) has the name 9mm Browning Short in Europe to differentiate it from the 9mm Browning Long which was introduced a few years earlier (not from the 9x19 Parabellum)
.32 acp and 7.65 browning are similar -- slight dimensional differences, at least originally -- and I think the 7.65 was loaded slightly hotter...
-
Is the FAMAS as big a disaster as a lot of the French designed/made guns in the last 150 years?
Certainly not on the scale as guns like the Chauchat, but on the balance the French made very serviceable firearms from the Lebel onwards.
Its just that the FAMAS was a bit of an odd duck, pioneering the service bullpup trend with the AUG and the SA80, the FAMAS had the idiosyncracy of being able to take 5.56NATO but needing a special round to operate optimally. Plus you see they actually started replacing them with HK 416s, which are descended from the AR-18 system, apparently. Reading into the fact that the French would actually choose to adopt a German gun based on an American design.....
-
.380 ACP (or AUTO in the USA) has the name 9mm Browning Short in Europe to differentiate it from the 9mm Browning Long which was introduced a few years earlier (not from the 9x19 Parabellum)
.32 acp and 7.65 browning are similar -- slight dimensional differences, at least originally -- and I think the 7.65 was loaded slightly hotter...
I have seen rim dimension differences (diameter, thickness and shape of the extraction groove) between USA made .32 Auto and European 7.65 Browning. The Euro 7.65 works in all of the pistols, but some of the Euro ones don't like the USA .32. Could be the dimensions or the pressure, I'm guessing the Euro ammo has a little something extra in the loading.