The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ CLONE CLUB => Topic started by: timmy75 on October 08, 2023, 06:31:29 AM
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I'm sorry, but unfortunately all the images that were in the first post have been deleted from the hosting site abload.de.
Pistol is in 9x19 caliber.
It is also available with optics ready cut, but I have decided to buy one without, because lower mounted sights and side adjustable rear sight (OR comes w/o side adjustable rear).OR model is only €20 more. The same 5" model is available (L-02 SPECTRA). I went for 4,5" because I like the balance better and feel faster in transitions.
-Frame is CNC machined forged stainless steel, not MIM casting.
-Barrel length is 4,5", fluted, polished, heavy with 11 degree crown.
-It has a BRS – barrel stabilization system in the slide in place of CZ barrel bushing. That is a small brass ring you can remove after removing the barrel.
-Trigger is serrated with an overtravel screw. Overtravel screw is longer than CZ's.
-Reset is shorter than in Shadow 2, disconnector is somehow like in S2 Orange but not the same. DA is much like S2, but SA is better with a shorter pre travel and shorter reset with ~ 1,3 kg pull.
-Hammer is a wide competition hammer, better than stock S2, probably the same or better than one in S2 Orange.
-Pistol comes with 3 magazines, uses the same magazines as the CZ 75 series. Grip panels are almost the same as S2, same material and feel, but not interchangeable with S2 or anything from CZ as I know.
-Magazine release button is smaller than one in S2, also 3-position adjustable.
-Safety is wide, extended on the left side and slim on the right side.
-Front sight is 3 mm wide, with 1mm red fiber optic. Front sight is secured with a vertical screw (like S2 Orange), not horizontal cross pin like stock S2. Rear sight is the same as S2 but side adjustable.
-Factory finish is black cerakote on slide and frame (not polycoat).
-Comes with a pistol case, 3 magazines, 2 main springs, 3 recoil springs, 2 stickers, oil, loctite, cleaning kit, 5 recoil buffers and paperwork.
Prices where I live:
Shadow 2 €1.295
Shadow 2 OR €1.553
Shadow 2 Orange €2.300
KMR W-02 UMBRA €1.920
KMR L-02 SPECTRA (5") €1.987
My findings:
-slide and frame fit is perfect, far from CZ, more like Phoenix or SIG high end models
-internals are the same as S2 but with tighter fit (especially sear cage and safety)
-extractor is heavy duty, in theory with a larger lever than CZ's, should be better.
-assembly is a bit more complicated because you have to wiggle a bit when installing the barrel and recoil spring. Recoil spring and guide rod are held by a plastic insert in the slide.
-there isn't a magazine guide in the grip area, it is machined in a frame around the lower part where the main spring sits.
-barrel is heavier than the S2 and the slide is lighter. There are many cuts for weight reduction in the slide.
-barrel locking is better than CZ. I don't know what it is called but it locks via square chamber shape (w/o locking lugs) and slide. When locked, the barrel fit is much tighter than S2.
-my reloads for S2 with 130 PF, went down just to 128 PF (4,9" vs 4,5" barrel).
-it is not front heavy like the S2, balance is somewhere in the middle of the pistol.
-in rapid fire when I make a mistake, S2 always goes down and left, Umbra goes up, but I'm still getting used to it.
-grip area is a tiny bit wider than S2, and undercut seems a bit larger.
-breech face and the rest of the slide is easier to clean (larger flat surfaces).
-pistol case is too large, can't fit in a range bag...but you can use smaller pistol bag, not a big deal
-holsters for S2 do not fit, slide stop fits, aftermarket trigger pins should fit. Be careful with internals, the trigger bar, disconnector, left safety... looks a hair different than S2 but maybe they fit, still haven't tried yet.
-safety is stiffer than S2, looks like a longer spring is used.
-when shooting with S2, wide safety interferes with my grip. With Umbra wide safety is not a problem. Still don't know why.
-recoil control seems better, I still don't know how and why, but my subjective feeling is that the slide when going forward is slower and with less hit than S2. When racking a slide, it seems you have to wait to go completely locked.
-slide has square shape, not triangle like S2. Seems easier to grab for racking.
Long story short and my conclusion: CZ can learn from this small company and make their products better.
EDIT: I forgot, KMR is company in Uhersky Brod, Czech Republic as CZ. They make all Orange models for CZ and some other parts.
EDIT: Umbra means shadow in latin.
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Very very interesting! 8) :)
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Got to shoot a KMR L-02 ORCA, which is the IPSC Standard division model with a very light straight SAO trigger, magwell and gas pedal. Felt very much like the TS2 Deep Bronze. Slide to frame fit and racking smoothness was just slightly better but it's local price is considerably lower than the TS2 DB.
L-02 ORCA ~2700€
TS2 DB ~3100€
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where are you from?
if you are close to Slovenia you can get it for ~2000€ (cash)
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Review in German gun magazine:
(https://abload.de/thumb/000176eb0.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=000176eb0.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/0002kref3.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=0002kref3.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/0003yrdld.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=0003yrdld.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/0004xcio5.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=0004xcio5.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/0005qtexb.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=0005qtexb.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/000697ftf.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=000697ftf.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/0007i0ds2.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=0007i0ds2.jpg) (https://abload.de/thumb/0008ndesi.jpg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=0008ndesi.jpg)
Google translate:
The CZ 75 with its solid all-steel construction and ergonomically successful overall design is heading towards its fiftieth birthday. In addition to the original manufacturer, there are currently a number of producers such as Arma Zeka, CZ Custom, Norinco, Phoenix or Tanfoglio who produce this classic in a more or less modified form. The illustrious group is now being expanded by another newcomer in the form of KMR Precision Arms. KMR Precision Arms is part of Kummer Tech a.s. Company, behind which is Jaroslav Rezek, who worked for ?eská Zbrojovka (CZ) for more than 15 years. The 17 employees in his company in Hrad?ovice produce, among other things, trigger parts, grip panels, mini red dot sight mounting plates and the chassis for the CZ TSR sniper rifle as well as many other small parts for CZ weapons. But the close connection with CZ goes a whole step further. This is how the renowned custom pistols such as the CZ 75 TS Czechmate, CZ 75 Shadow 2 Orange and TS Orange were created in small series. This means that enough experience has been gained with the CZ-75 technology, which forms the basis for the new KMR pistols. The company was reinforced by a few other former CZ employees who now want to contribute their ideas to this weapon system. Currently, the modern machine park can produce a maximum of 2,000 to 3,000 guns per year. Since they also want to serve the huge US market from next year, they are planning to expand production until 2025, which will then result in production capacities of up to 10,000 pistols per year. Back to the present: The KMR range currently consists of half a dozen models with lengths from 4.5"/114 mm to 6"/152 mm. Our test starts with the Spectra with a length of 5"/127 mm and the identical, only slightly shorter Umbra with a length of 4.5"/114 mm in the dominant caliber 9 mm Luger. They are both intended for the IPSC Production (Optics) Division. For the IPSC standard class, the Orca is available with a pure single-action trigger in 9 mm Luger or .40 S&W. The brand new Enic, an IPSC open pistol with a three-chamber compensator in 9 mm Luger, was shown at the IWA. There is also an almost identical version in .22 L.R as a training weapon. But there is also something to offer for static shooters. The Cuda comes with a 6?/152 mm barrel and a correspondingly long sight line as well as a three-position sight. This will be a guest in one of the next editions – we promise!
The technology with a cocking trigger system in combination with a manual safety, internal slide guides in the frame or a modified Browning system with a tilting barrel and closed control cam evokes clear associations with the ingenious bestseller CZ 75. But the similarities end with the choice of materials and manufacturing technology. In the pistols from KMR Precision Arms, the main components, the frame and slide, as well as the lock and some small parts, are machined from the full steel block using CNC machines. In addition to decorative millings, the slide of both Umbra and Spectra pistol models also has the typical interface for mounting a mini red dot sight. Installation is carried out using different adapter plates, which are available for the Shield RMSx, C-More RTS, Trijicon SRO/RMR, Leupold DeltaPoint Pro, Noblex/Docter/Meosight or Vortex Viper/Venom. Of course, this also applies to other red dot sights that have the identical footprint of the previously mentioned models. If you are not sure about this, we recommend the Optics Trade homepage: www.optics-trade. eu/blog/footprints-onred-dot-sights. The company has taken the trouble to list a variety of red dot sights and their mounting interfaces along with dimensioned drawings. Both the Spectra and the more compact Umbra are already listed on the IPSC Production Division list of approved pistols. In this profession, a visor that can only be adjusted in height, like our duo, is usually sufficient. The narrow front sight with the red light rod for quick target acquisition goes well with this. Since the cover plate of the shutter cutout also accommodates the rear sight, it can be easily changed if necessary. This means that a full micrometer sight or the three-position rear sight, which is predestined for different distances or holding points, can be retrofitted for an additional charge. If you disassemble the pistols, you will discover the so-called “Barrel Ring System” (BRS) in the muzzle area. It is a hemispherical (spherical) ring made of brass that guides the barrel in its upward and downward movement. In contrast to a rigid barrel guide bushing, a smaller tolerance field is achieved here, which, at least in theory, promises more precision. Since it is designed as a wearing part, it can be easily replaced by the user if it ever becomes worn out. Because it is well known that every chain is only as strong as its weakest link, other parameters such as the barrel fit must of course also be correct. And in this respect the KMR pistols have no weaknesses. The grip and closure are fitted together by hand and this could also be felt, or to put it better, not felt. After a few centimeters of pushing the slide onto the handle, there was no longer any noticeable play. The long, continuous slide guide on the inside of the handle was adopted from the CZ 75 design. The approximately 16 millimeter thick barrel with the closed control cam typical of the CZ was fluted lengthways on its outer surfaces. It has a conventional field-tension profile inside that was introduced electrochemically (ECR; Electro Chemical Rifling).
The two locking combs on the top of the barrel, which are also typical of the CZ 75 design and which engage in corresponding counter bearings of the breech for a positive connection, were, however, replaced by a cartridge chamber block with a locking slot, which is located in the ejection window of the breech according to the Browning-Petter-SIG principle locked. The pre-cocked single-action trigger broke crystal clear at around 1,150 grams. But for the first shot in the IPSC Production (Optic) class, you also need a smooth double-action trigger. With 3,400 grams and rolling characteristics, this has been implemented perfectly. In addition, the reset distance was a pleasingly low 1.5 millimeters. The limitation of the trigger travel after triggering (trigger stop) can be adjusted from the outside in the trigger tongue. Straight out of the box, the trigger should leave little to be desired, even for demanding shooters. The Czech duo gets its uniform black from a Cerakote coating. The Spectra is also available in 45 Auto caliber with a magazine capacity of 10 cartridges. However, with a total weight of around 1,350 grams, it exceeds the weight limit for the BDS standard disciplines. The Umbra is only available in 9x19. Incidentally, it is also offered with a handle made of high-strength aluminum, which brings the total weight with the extended 5"/127 mm threaded barrel to around 980 grams. The aluminum grip scales with diamond cut are thin and ensure that the double-row grip with a width of 29 mm should be easy to grip even for shooters with small hands. Each hard-shell case contains two reserve magazines with a capacity of 18 cartridges, replacement closing springs and buffer elements for the spring guide rod. By the way, the cartridge containers of the CZ 75 Shadow II can also be used without any problems.
First the Spectra should show what it can do. Since the shape and dimensions of the handle are apparently identical to those of the CZ 75 SP01 Shadow, the blue Ransom rest adapters for this model also fit here. There were 10 loads to choose from, from the fast 95-grain target load to the extremely heavy subsonic load with 158 grains. First place had to be shared by three loads in the form of the 95 grain Magtech JSP, the 115 grain XTP Hornady American Gunner and the 124 grain Norma Safeguard with 40 mm. Second place went to 46 mm, probably the cheapest cartridge in the test, the Frankonia house brand Top Shot with the conventional 124 grain FMJ Ogive bullet. The counterpart from GECO at 47 mm only performed worse in theory. The average of all loads was 51 mm. If you like to put it another way, 60% of the loads were in the range of up to 50 mm. Now the shorter KMR Precision Arms Umbra went into the clamping device of the shooting machine to be checked for shooting performance using the same loads. With 27 mm, produced with our handload with 5.8 grains Vihtavuori 3N37 and 115 grains H&N High Speed KSHP bullet, it was even able to beat the longer version in terms of top results. This was followed by the Norma 124 Grains Safeguard with 34 mm and the GECO 124 Grains Hexagon with 46 mm. At least 4 out of 10 loads were in the range of up to 50 mm. As always, all other results can be found in the clear table or diagrams with MIP and factor. Finally, some dynamic bill and dot drills should follow for the overall assessment of shooting behavior and precision. There's no question that the longer Spectra shoots slightly better than the compact Umbra due to its greater front-heaviness and higher overall weight. The low trigger weight in DA/SA mode with clean characteristics and the short reset help to place good hits in a short time. The Umbra has a problem with the short Magtech 95 grs during the running-in phase. JSP. But that was the only malfunction that occurred after around 500 rounds.
The KMR pistols passed their first appearance with flying colors. Good workmanship, solid shooting performance and very good trigger qualities make the pistol competitive right out of the box. The best for last, because the price for these fine custom pistols is absolutely right. The Spectra goes for 2,850 euros, the more compact Umbra for 2,750 euros. Our purchase recommendation is clearly the Spectra, because it offers more front-heavyness, more pleasant shooting behavior and a longer sight line for just one more green glow. An absolutely fair price for what is on offer! Text: Tino Schmidt/Stefan Perey Photos: Dieter Licht.
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where are you from?
if you are close to Slovenia you can get it for ~2000€ (cash)
I’m in Estonia. It’s a small gun market and thus prices are high. Even a S2O is ~2600€ - the KMRs were supposed to be a cheaper alternative to the S2O but actually are more expensive here.
EDIT: I can now offer a comparison between a S2O and a L-02 SPECTRA. This particular S2O's slide to frame fit seemed to be too tight as there was no buttery smoothness and it kind of bound up when racking. L-02 SPECTRA on the other hand was exactly like the L-02 ORCA model from yesterday - smooth like glass. OP mentioned the S2's being more front-heavy and the KMR having a better balance - I tend to agree. If I had to choose one there and then, it would be the KMR.
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Shooting and handling aforementioned KMR models left such an impression, I bought a KMR L-02 SPECTRA for myself. Initially for IPSC Production but later will switch to Production Optics. The more weight at the muzzle didn't bother me. OR sights are exactly like the S2 sights.
Everything timmy75 said is correct. Already put close to 500 rounds through it and it shoots like a dream. Of course there is some getting used to. Some points:
-Reset is shorter than in Shadow 2, disconnector is somehow like in S2 Orange but not the same. DA is much like S2, but SA is better with a shorter pre travel and shorter reset with ~ 1,3 kg pull.
SA is indeed very-very nice, dare I say it's perfect! Only very minimal 1-2mm pre-travel and no overtravel. With the factory springs, the DA can be lighter. Improved that with the Eemann springs kit.
-Pistol comes with 3 magazines, uses the same magazines as the CZ 75 series. Grip panels are almost the same as S2, same material and feel, but not interchangeable with S2 or anything from CZ as I know.
-Magazine release button is smaller than one in S2, also 3-position adjustable.
Listed as 16-round matte black Mec-Gar magazines with a thin basepad. In reality, these are the usual 17-round Mec-Gar CZ mags - even the witness hole at is there at the 17th round. Aluminum grip panels are grippy and not as harsh on the skin as S2 blue grip panels. Heavily serrated front and backstraps initially were very harsh on the skin but the body adapted.
Smaller mag release button is a benefit as it won't interfere with weak-hand shooting.
-Factory finish is black cerakote on slide and frame (not polycoat).
Black cerakote actually seems a whole lot nicer than the polycoat. But I have doubts it's more durable as there are already some tiny dings on it. I haven't dropped it on a hard surface and use a locking open race holster for it.
Prices where I live:
Shadow 2 €1.295
Shadow 2 OR €1.553
Shadow 2 Orange €2.300
KMR W-02 UMBRA €1.920
KMR L-02 SPECTRA (5") €1.987
My local prices (not list prices, but with easily obtainable discounts for locals):
Shadow 2 €1750
Shadow 2 OR €1850
Shadow 2 Orange €2600
KMR W-02 UMBRA (4,5") €2360
KMR L-02 SPECTRA (5") €2650
Only real downside right now is that there is almost no aftermarket. There are a few options of grip panels available but nowhere as wide of a choice as for CZs.
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(https://abload.de/thumb/img_24053lcr5.jpeg) (https://abload.de/image.php?img=img_24053lcr5.jpeg)
Forgot to mention in OP, there is L-02 Spectra available in .45 ACP.
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I've put over 600 rounds through my KMR over two weeks, a few range visits and four IPSC Level 1/2 competitions and the gun's been running great. Some fellow shooters have bought themselves KMR pistols, some equipped with those few factory accessories available - one of them had the KMR factory aluminum palmswell grips and coming from CZ rubber palmswells...oh man, I have to get them. Those fit the hand way better than the factory flat sided aluminum grips. They're 110-120€ so a somewhat more expensive than similar CZ75 aluminum grips.
Ran mainly with Magtech 124gr loads, also some STV Scorpio and S&B. Tried some ARES ECO 150gr, which are painted bullets loaded with a seemingly minimal powder charge to make minimum Power Factor. Those had trouble feeding with the slide not returning fully into battery. Those ran just fine through my S1 which has a lighter slide. I have put the Eemann 12lb recoil spring and 8lb main spring in the KMR.
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2000 rounds report:
Pros:
- Pistol is flawless, not even one jam.
- Double action got even better (smoother) at ~1500 rounds.
Cons:
- CZ's polycoat seems to be better than KMR's cerakote.
- A couple holsters are available at the moment in only 2 or 3 shops.
- Palm swell grip options are limited to factory grips only, which are expensive (€130) and hard to get.
- Different grip panel size for 5" and 4,5" models, making things complicated. Recoil spring, recoil spring guide and housing, main spring strut, trigger bar and firing pin are different in 4,5" and 5" models.
- Still unavailable (unobtainable) flat safety and flat slide stop.
- Still unavailable floating trigger pin. Major PITA when TRS breaks.
- Newer versions of Spectra and Umbra are equipped with springs to stabilize the sear cage like Tactical Sport. Older versions are not :(
- Customer service seems to be somehow lacking behind pistol build quality, IMO.
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Great post. Thanks. First time in a long time I read someone’s entire post.
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I really wish these were available in the USA
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I really wish these were available in the USA
"Since they also want to serve the huge US market from next year, they are planning to expand production until 2025, which will then result in production capacities of up to 10,000 pistols per year."
(https://i.ibb.co/bbwXCWF/czs2eje.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bbwXCWF) (https://i.ibb.co/rmJ9LQN/kmrumbeje.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rmJ9LQN)
Interesting size and shape difference in CZ Shadow 2 and KMR ejectors
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2000 rounds report:
Pros:
- Pistol is flawless, not even one jam.
- Double action got even better (smoother) at ~1500 rounds.
Cons:
- CZ's polycoat seems to be better than KMR's cerakote.
- A couple holsters are available at the moment in only 2 or 3 shops.
- Palm swell grip options are limited to factory grips only, which are expensive (€130) and hard to get.
- Different grip panel size for 5" and 4,5" models, making things complicated. Recoil spring, recoil spring guide and housing, main spring strut, trigger bar and firing pin are different in 4,5" and 5" models.
- Still unavailable (unobtainable) flat safety and flat slide stop.
- Still unavailable floating trigger pin. Major PITA when TRS breaks.
- Newer versions of Spectra and Umbra are equipped with springs to stabilize the sear cage like Tactical Sport. Older versions are not :(
- Customer service seems to be somehow lacking behind pistol build quality, IMO.
I've put 1600 rounds through mine and I 100% agree with every point You made. I will add...
- I've had no malfunctions other than light strikes with factory 11-pound main springs with a couple of batches of STV Scorpio ammo.
- Indeed the Cerakote is not as tough as CZ's Polycoat.
- I use Double Alpha Flex holster. I've seen Double Alpha Alpha-X being used but I don't know with which insert.
- I bought the expensive factory palm swell grips - worth every penny. It provided me with the CZ Shadow 1 rubber palmswell grip style I has longing for, and with a grippy golfball pattern which isn't too hard on the hands.
- You can use the CZ floating trigger pin. I have done so and it works fine.
If anyone wants to install a lighter firing pin return spring, KMR is built with such tight tolerances that removing the firing pin end cap requires a hammer and a brass punch, whereas in CZ's it can be removed easily. I had mine taken out by a gunsmith but I reinstalled the plug myself - the firing pin wouldn't pop out of the plug until the plug was 100% seated. The tolerances are THAT tight. Took a bit of hammering.
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My factory mainspring is 14 lbs, confirmed by the factory (W-02 Umbra). STV ammo is a low-end product here; I tried two boxes, and experienced FTFs and FTEs in various pistols. About 30% can't pass the plunk test in the ammo gauge.
I use a Ghost Hydra holster made for KMR. It's a good product, but I have some middle finger scars when fast drawing. The top part of the holster is somehow sharp.
I bought factory palm swells as well. They're expensive, but they make the pistol even better. I'm also looking for the Shadow 1 feeling and balance. I prefer it over the boat anchor front (Shadow 2).
Thank you for the trigger pin info.
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Out of the box mainspring's DA trigger pull was a bit heavy for me. I've settled on a 9-pound Eemann spring, lightened firing pin spring and so far haven't had any light strikes with quality ammo (Magtech, S&B).
One more thing I've noticed is that the trigger guard and trigger blade of the KMR are slightly smaller than the Shadow 2. I have large hands and fingers and I find pressing the Shadow 2 trigger easier in terms of fingertip weight distribution on the trigger blade, providing more comfort for me. I tried putting in the Shadow 2 trigger blade - it fits but it can't be pressed back fully because the trigger guard is smaller and the blade will hit it.
- Still unavailable (unobtainable) flat safety and flat slide stop.
You could try Shadow 2 parts. For example the right flat safety looks exactly like the S2 part. I want to get the extended right safety for mine and I can probably try the CZ extended right safety - it looks exactly the same as KMR's extended left safety. Chances are the parts provider is the same and they will fit. S2 slide stops will also probably fit. You seem to have a S2 available to you - you can try it out?
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S2 slide stops will also probably fit. You seem to have a S2 available to you - you can try it out?
(https://i.ibb.co/6nzyzs1/umbra-sh22.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6nzyzs1) (https://i.ibb.co/9Vvc9TT/umbra-sh2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9Vvc9TT)
It fits. Original KMR safety is snug fit, and S2 safety is a loose fit, but it works.
Slide stop is also Shadow 2 flat, it works.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Z9CEd1Clo
Frame differences explained.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oElN154KToo
L-02 Spectra review in Luxembourgish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKM2-pgu29A
L-02 Umbra (5in, alu frame) in Serbian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa28ElNcoA8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxP8hXrL4P4
L-02 Orca and L-02 Spectra reviews in some unknown language, maybe it is Thai.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyHFh86b-GE
L-02 Spectra in Arabic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCkrMOipnT0
KMR opinion, review by Czech shooter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd2jc8cXgJw
Model presentation in French.
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Very interesting!
I am not familiar with any of the clones. Is the spherical bushing design used in other pistols?
The entire pistol looks good to me, but my frame of reference is limited to the production CZ polymer, 75, and 97 pistols, all of which must be a little "looser" than these KMR models.
Joe L
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Great post and lots of information. I'm looking forward to when these come to the US.
One thing in the article: "The 17 employees in his company in Hrad?ovice produce, among other things, trigger parts, grip panels, mini red dot sight mounting plates and the chassis for the CZ TSR sniper rifle as well as many other small parts for CZ weapons. But the close connection with CZ goes a whole step further. This is how the renowned custom pistols such as the CZ 75 TS Czechmate, CZ 75 Shadow 2 Orange and TS Orange were created in small series."
This part isn't completely clear but the part about how "custom pistols such as the CZ 75 TS Czechmate, CZ 75 Shadow 2 Orange and TS Orange were created in small series" makes it sound as if KMR has worked as a subcontractor for CZ and either manufactures parts for these models of CZ pistols, or even the Czechmate and Shadow 2 Orange pistols themselves for CZ. It makes me wonder if these models are made by CZ or subcontracted to KMR.
It's often been said that those specific competition models by CZ were made in limited batches so maybe that would explain why they are sometimes so hard to find. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding the wording in the article.
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I don't know the exact interrelationship between CZ and KMR. I believe they produce some small parts for CZUB, such as grips, hammers, mag catches, spring guides, gas pedals, sights, red dot mounts, etc. Regarding the Orange and Czechmate models, I think the pistols leave the CZUB factory and then go to KMR for fine-tuning and final assembly.
Ljubisa Momcilovic (CZUB factory shooter) in his Shadow 2 Orange review wrote this:
"Traditionally, all custom pistol variants from CZUB are labeled as Orange. KMR, a long-time supplier of custom parts to CZUB—providing items like springs, hammers, slide stops, front and rear sights, grips—is tasked with the finalization and modification of the Orange series pistols. Apart from part production, KMR also performs mechanical and manual finishing on standard CZ pistols. This meticulous finishing process results in these pistols being designated as Orange."
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That may explain why I'm having so much trouble locating a Tactical Sport 2 Orange. I've been trying to find one for going on an entire year now since it was introduced.
Maybe KMR is swamped right now doing the finish work on CZ's Orange pistols, and at the same time producing their own pistol.
I sure wish the CZ TS2 Orange would get rolling again for now and I hope KMRs will find their way to the US. We can always use another quality competition pistol.
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"Swamped" would be one way to put it. KMR is actively posting on social media but seem to be seldom following up to questions asked on their posts on said social media. The often pictured shooters IPSC Production Optics setups have a replacement flat front sight - does anyone know what product that is? Like here - https://www.instagram.com/p/C0H0Z1mLZ9W/
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I can't help you with any specific information, but maybe you can find something here to help. BTW, they make some fine looking firearms.
https://kmrarms.com/en/
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KMR still hasn't got their own accessories e-shop open but I see that their models have their "list of parts" CZ-like parts diagrams now posted. See here -> https://kmrarms.com/en/pistols/kmr-l-02-spectra/
I'm nearing 3000 rounds out of my KMR Spectra and it has been flawless. I've since fitted the Holosun 507COMP with the appropriate KMR optics plate. The Spectra is optics ready from the factory.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcifFTAJ2VM
longer review in italian language
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I just reached 4000 rounds from my KMR Spectra. I changed back to original springs a while back. 16lbs main spring and 11lbs recoil spring. With 16lbs recoil spring, the slide wasn't moving fast enough for reliable extraction - had malfunctions. With 13lbs recoil spring, the brass was being extracted reliably but thrown too close. 11lbs recoil spring seems to be the sufficient. This is all with an optic. Also a note that this probably won't correlate with the non-Orange model CZ's as they slide to frame fit is looser.
The increase of double action trigger pull weight you will get used to quite fast. I'm shooting Fiocchi Dynamic Shooting Line 148gr FNCP.
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S2 slide stops will also probably fit. You seem to have a S2 available to you - you can try it out?
(https://i.ibb.co/6nzyzs1/umbra-sh22.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6nzyzs1) (https://i.ibb.co/9Vvc9TT/umbra-sh2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9Vvc9TT)
It fits. Original KMR safety is snug fit, and S2 safety is a loose fit, but it works.
Slide stop is also Shadow 2 flat, it works.
Shooting IPSC level II in Nova Gorica?
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I just reached 4000 rounds from my KMR Spectra. I changed back to original springs a while back. 16lbs main spring and 11lbs recoil spring. With 16lbs recoil spring, the slide wasn't moving fast enough for reliable extraction - had malfunctions. With 13lbs recoil spring, the brass was being extracted reliably but thrown too close. 11lbs recoil spring seems to be the sufficient. This is all with an optic. Also a note that this probably won't correlate with the non-Orange model CZ's as they slide to frame fit is looser.
The increase of double action trigger pull weight you will get used to quite fast. I'm shooting Fiocchi Dynamic Shooting Line 148gr FNCP.
I am at ~4000 also with Umbra. Out-of-the-box 14lbs (main) and 11lbs (recoil) are just fine for my 130 PF reloads.
Shooting IPSC level II in Nova Gorica?
I would like to but it is 500km drive (one way) from me.
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https://xrayparts.it/en/247-kmr-arms-parts
finally, some spare parts available
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https://xrayparts.it/en/247-kmr-arms-parts
finally, some spare parts available
Xray has offered KMR parts for some time now. Variety of parts has increased over time, yes. I got the KMR palmswell grips from them and after I used up my included KMR oil, ordered six more in a joint order with another owner. 20€ shipping is okay if you order many things at once...
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Bumping this a bit. I've shot over 5700 rounds over 11 months through my KMR Spectra. It's been marvellous. I appreciate the factory RMR optics plate having a passthrough for punching out the extractor pin to facilitate a thorough cleaning of the extractor. Though I'm no longer able to reap this benefit as I won a C-More RTS2 clone in a raffle at a IPSC L3 match and there's no chance of this passthrough with it's optic footprint.
Anyway, I've had a total of 3(!) recent stovepipes, out of 5700 rounds fired. Commonality between them was using Magtech 124gr ammo. Ordered and received a set of factory springs (13lbs recoil, 17lbs main, new sear and trigger springs) to perform the first annual maintenance, so to say. Since the extractor is kind of known to break, got that and it's spring as backups.
Can anybody comment on Cerakote recoating? It's seen some use and the Cerakote has worn here and there. Is recoating a labor-intensive job for a Cerakote applicator?
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I’m at about 8,000 rounds of ammunition in 11 months. Not a single malfunction so far with my reloaded ammo. Mixed casings from the range and a 130 PF load.
A 13 LBS recoil spring and a 17 LBS main spring seem like overkill to me. In my Umbra, the factory recoil spring is 11 LBS, and the main spring is 14 LBS (a weaker one could probably be used to make DA smoother). UMBRA parts diagram --> https://kmrarms-sk.com/img/cms/Rozpad-W-02-UMBRA-cz-black.jpg (https://kmrarms-sk.com/img/cms/Rozpad-W-02-UMBRA-cz-black.jpg)
For backup, I would have a trigger spring, slide stop, and extractor + spring, known weak(er) points of the CZ 75 design.
I don’t see a reason to do a Cerakote refinish. The pistol is being used anyway, and in a year, if you train and do dry fire practice, it will be full of scratches again... Maybe in five years or so.
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I actually used a -20% Eemann Tech trigger spring for the whole time, but now reverted back to factory full strenght one. You get used to the heavier double action. It will probably ignite any primer, the first time, every time :)
KMR factory slide stop as spare part is 80€. CZ Shadow 2's factory slide stop is half the price. I sincerely hope KMR's slide stop doesn't have this issue :)
Maybe it's just me with a heightened sense of beauty. I might do it if the cost is reasonable. If not, maybe in a few years time.
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(https://i.ibb.co/DKRK5F4/OR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DKRK5F4) (https://i.ibb.co/dKwyfGh/non-OR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dKwyfGh)
An interesting detail I noticed:
KMR uses different extractor springs for OR and non-OR models. I don't see any reason why, but there are maybe some structural differences in the extractors? Although there aren't two extractor models, they are all the same for 9mm.
Also, it's interesting that only the KMR OR extractor spring can be used for all CZ models.
From the pictures, it seems to me that the OR extractor spring is slightly stronger than the "regular" (non-OR) one.
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I noticed that too - I ordered the OR spring. Some of my local Spectra users have had issues with the extractor, while their guns were actually almost brand new. This might be a response on KMR's part - offer different extractor springs. They too have the OR models but they are shooting Production.
The other thing that can be noticed is that there's a 2024 model of the L-02 Spectra. I wonder what's the difference...
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(https://i.ibb.co/PwngFhC/L-02-spectra-2023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PwngFhC)
The only thing I don't like about KMR pistols is that they change the models by year, on the fly, so you can buy a pistol, and shortly after, the same model comes out but with a few better features.
From what I can notice, the changes in 2024 for the Spectra are:
grips, floating trigger pin, safety levers, different rear sight connected to the OR plate and maybe the disconnector.
As far as I know, by 2023 all models had already received sear cage springs for stability (like the TS). Models from 2022 don't have this.
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At least looking at the schematic, it's odd that the 2024 disconnector hook shape is more like the standard CZ Shadow 2 type. Up to 2023 the disconnector was like one on the Shadow 2 Orange.
Yes, my 2023 model has the small sear cage springs.
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My model is from 2022 with an 'older' disconnector. There is almost no pretravel.
It's possible they wanted to achieve a bit more pretravel in SA. I haven't tried the 2024 pistols, so I can't say.
Otherwise, I don't see any advantage if there is no pretravel in SA; as far as I'm concerned, it's even better if it's longer because I can prepare the trigger easier. The only thing I care about is a short reset. But that's just my opinion; maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it's just an error in the illustration, and there wasn't any change at all, who knows...? ;D
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I got to try a 2024 model S-02 in .22LR. The trigger didn't feel like anything special to be honest. There was definite pretravel, more than my 2023 L-02.
Reached out to my local KMR dealer and they wanted to test on their own before selling me the 2024 model floating trigger pin. Waiting on that...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffN-ZYSmVqY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ5cb-yi_is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf-pPfa9TeU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9dugKekhwk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCevL2sS08k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwwSYPRopCk
Here are a few recent videos; unfortunately, I don’t think any of them are in English, but turn on subtitles or just watch them (especially the one in German :) )
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I learned (and it shows in the first video) that the 2024 floating trigger pin doesn't fit earlier models - it is slightly thicker. In order to use it, the trigger would have to be changed and the trigger pin hole in the frame drilled out a bit.
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I don’t know the diameter of the new trigger pin, but I think it’s 2.2 mm in diameter for older models (my Umbra is a '22).
I use the original CGW pin for the CZ; I think it’s 2.2 mm on the outside and 1.8 mm on the inside.
For the item "SA/DA Semiflat Trigger" reference # KMR-0861-01505-0401, it says it’s only compatible with the 2.2 mm trigger pin. My assumption is that they made some change to the thickness of that pin and trigger for models from 2024 onwards. I don’t know why, but I’d like to know the reason for the change and whether it brought any improvement.
What caught my attention was the latest video. I didn’t know that new pistols come with a barrel bushing alignment tool. Sometimes you have to wiggle it a bit to get the barrel to sit nicely in place during assembly. It’s a useful tool, but unfortunately, I didn’t get it in my bundle.
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(https://i.ibb.co/fxR06cD/Whats-App-Image-2024-12-21-at-12-12-55.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fxR06cD) (https://i.ibb.co/dJJrKVD/Whats-App-Image-2024-12-21-at-12-12-55-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dJJrKVD)
I added a semi-flat trigger (DA/SA) to my Umbra. It's a fantastic upgrade, and now it's as close to an SA trigger as it can be. Production is Open light now :D
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Looks nice, but I'll stick to my stock trigger :)
Barrel alignment tool is useful when the pistol is still new. I'm on my original barrel bushing and installing the barrel has gotten easier after 6500 rounds.
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I learned (and it shows in the first video) that the 2024 floating trigger pin doesn't fit earlier models - it is slightly thicker. In order to use it, the trigger would have to be changed and the trigger pin hole in the frame drilled out a bit.
Yes, the new models have a 3.0mm hole for the trigger pin, while the older ones have a 2.2mm hole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7yRY_eNeuw
Here is a review in Serbian. The Umbra X is a lightened version of the Umbra for IDPA (lighter slide and slightly shortened frame), featuring a semi-flat trigger and an elevated safety.
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I sold my L-02 Spectra after 7200 rounds. It will serve a fellow IPSC competitor. Going to buy a 2024 W-02 Umbra OR, if one can be obtained :) I shot a couple of level 1's with my CZ Shadow 1 with iron sights and I will not go back to iron sights :D
Otherwise might go Arma Zeka AZ-P1 Sport OR but then all my CZ75 magazines will become useless and it has only two magazines included, which are pretty proprietary and not all that available.
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Received my 2024 W-02 Umbra OR.
First impressions! The fit and finish is the same outside with the same tight fit, but there seems to be slight cutting of corners on the inside. The non-sliding surfaces inside of the slide and frame dust cover isn't as finely machined as my 2023 L-02 and are left with a more coarse texture, like CZ Shadow 1/2. The now-factory 3mm floating trigger pin stays put - doesn't want to wiggle itself out as it happened to my aftermarket floating pin. The factory trigger return spring is quite light, maybe a bit too light. The L-02 had a very heavy spring, which I replaced with a lighter one. The amount of trigger pretravel is the same, the trigger break point is the same, reset distance is the same. Will look whether the disconnector is different a bit later.