The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: crosstimbers on February 07, 2024, 11:52:59 PM
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This is pretty much just thinking out loud, open to suggestions.
Since the 1911 went to the son from my not being as able to use the sights (they were the small variety) I am still interested in a 45. But I have certain preferences- hammer fired, sights that I like and something other than bottom of the barrel offerings. I am also on a limited budget and for the sake of this post let's say in the $900 or less range.
So far I've pondered the FNX 45, other 1911-styled offerings and some S&W offerings that I in fact have some past experience with. Another consideration is that while I require size XL gloves, I apparently have short fingers and some pistols (CZ 75 models for instance) have more trigger reach than I like.
Sights- Unlike so many guys I really dont care for 3 dot sights. In fact I really like the post and dot sights found on some Sig and Kahr pistols. The white outline found on some Glocks is my second choice...but I'm hoping to find a hammer fired choice if possible.
I've got a local gun show coming up pretty soon, with all of the above in mind, anybody have any ideas of what to look for I might keep in mind? I didnt mention capacity for a reason, as I'm open on that count in a way thats hard to explain. So I'm just fishing for imput....thats all.
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Best I think you can do is find a platform that you like and if it doesn't have the sights you want you can replace them. I have a Springfield Armory Garrison 1911 that came with those lousy 3 dot sights so I put a set of Dawson fiber optics on it. I bought the pistol on sale and the total cost with the sights was under $900. The majority of 1911's today have dovetail sights unless you buy a pure mil-spec model. I have no experience with the FNX .45 but I know magazines for that brand are not cheap in the least.
You could look at the Sig P220 but those models will come in above the $900 budget you mentioned and you may not like the sights. To be honest other than my revolvers I don't own a single handgun that hasn't had different sights installed.
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I agree with the above post, there are other 1911 options that have good sights or can have aftermarket sights installed easily.
If you don’t want a 1911, other options that come to mind are the SIG 220 ( mine has been very reliable) Another option is the beretta PX4
https://configurator.beretta.com/en_INT/pistols/family/px4/?utm_source=bcom&utm_medium=pdp&utm_campaign=configurator
While I don’t have one, I did shoot a friend’s 9mm variant and it was quite good.
I personally have 2 1911s, a SIG P220, SIG P320c and a S&W 625 revolver all in 45 ACP and shoot them in my pistol competition games.
Good luck in your search
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Thanks to both of you, I hadn't really thought about magazine price so far....so that's a good point. I did send a slide to Novak's once and have different sights installed, so I know that's an option. It could all boil down to simply what I find available. I owned a Sig 220 once and liked it, would be perfectly pleased if I found one at a good price.
Guess I was sort of hoping there was some obscure make/model out there I hadn't heard of yet, that had really great reviews and reputation and selling for great prices.....yeah, I know- dream on ::)
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Have you considered a Tanfoglio in .45? That is my second favorite .45 platform, after the 1911. Same ergonomics as a CZ, but not as bulky as the 97. Totally different feel than a 1911. Sights are easily upgraded, and Patriot has all the goodies if you want to do more to it. A good used standard model Witness can be had in $500 - 600 range.
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Have you considered a Tanfoglio in .45? That is my second favorite .45 platform, after the 1911. Same ergonomics as a CZ, but not as bulky as the 97. Totally different feel than a 1911. Sights are easily upgraded, and Patriot has all the goodies if you want to do more to it. A good used standard model Witness can be had in $500 - 600 range.
No, I hadn't. But I will.
Since I would like to buy private sale if possible, I'm limited to what I find at shows. Since the big show in Dallas ended, that means more local(smaller) shows...but that's fine I was tired of the drive anyway. The results are hit and miss, sometimes these are pretty good shows and sometimes not so much.
In the end I figure the most likely scenario is another 1911 with better sights, or as has been suggested that I can have better sights installed on. That is perfectly fine by me, I liked the one I had before. I used to scoff at people who talked about sights being hard to see, but no more. The little fixed sights on my old 1911 plain got beyond me.
I have heard good things about HK. A guy I worked with tells me I should buy one, I told him he should give me the money. It's not hammer fired but I've wondered about Walther, I have a Walther 22 and like it and the wife really likes her 380. I just dont know anyone who has owned a Walther 45.
I'm going to read up on the Tanfoglio.
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I had a Witness in 45 and it was a nice pistol. Sold it to buy my 97 which I bought used at my LGS last year for $600. I too have short fingers and put a CGW reach reduction kit in it. Changing sights is easy with tons of options. Fun pistol, much more accurate than me, but a little large for short, old, fat guys like me to carry so its mostly a range toy although it does get occasional duty as a nightstand pistol. They can be pricey as CZ discontinued them but I have seen several locally at reasonable prices.
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A couple of pics.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240208/a0e953d043c1056b396b78230cf24e27.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240208/71967a7a1eada870aa76ca80ceb0ace9.jpg)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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(https://i.postimg.cc/mrb6BGNh/IMG-2610.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
It is hammer fired and is a 45 ACP also 45 AR but I'm not sure it really meets all your criteria. I would be inclined to shop around for a 1911 that actually has whatever bells and whistles you want. There are some really decent quality up rated 1911's being imported into the country right now that have differing options at prices not much more than some other makers entry level 1911's. After that it becomes how much do you wish to spend. Of course, sometimes it's nice to play with a new and different pistol format.
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I agree that a 1911 is the most likely find. You're right in a way that the idea of something different has some appeal, but them so does the idea of something familiar.
I have only owned Colt and Springfield Armory 1911s, well unless you count a Llama 380 that I inherited. So I have been reading up on some of the various other brands that are out now. Kind of like ARs, everybody is or has been in the business of making them. You hear good things about one and then hear the opposite- even when you discount some for brand snobbery opinions still seem all over the place about several makes.
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I had an FNX45 years ago and it was a really good gun. It had the mushy frame issue and went back to FN and was fixed. In the end I let it go. I would own one again for sure. There are some good Springfield 1911 options at 900 and below if you would still consider a 1911. The M&P45 is another great option i think. Police trade in can be found sometimes for great deals.
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I had an FNX45 years ago and it was a really good gun. It had the mushy frame issue and went back to FN and was fixed. In the end I let it go. I would own one again for sure. There are some good Springfield 1911 options at 900 and below if you would still consider a 1911. The M&P45 is another great option i think. Police trade in can be found sometimes for great deals.
I am not familiar with the "mushy frame" issue and that model, I'll have to look it up. Yeah I'm open to another 1911, with better sights that I can still use. I've got a bid on a Tanfoglio right now, but doubt I'll be the winner, so with a show coming up another 1911 is a probable outcome.
My attitude about Smith autos is mixed. I don't know much about the M&P 45. The first and second generation 45 autos they produced had great potential but simply didn't measure up. The 645 in particular caught a lot of guys eye, stainless and especially it felt great in the hand. But so many guys had problems in use that almost everyone I knew who bought one bailed out fairly soon. Some had sights shooting off, mine grouped in the belly of a Q target with a chest hold. 2nd gen failed to stimulate the hopeful response the 1st did- not sure why. So many guys had went back to 1911s after that it may just have been reluctance to try something new again.
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I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for you on the Tanfo.
The only thing I'll add to this discussion is that I am not a fan of polymer framed .45s - the recoil impulse feels odd to me. That's just my personal opinion.
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I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for you on the Tanfo.
The only thing I'll add to this discussion is that I am not a fan of polymer framed .45s - the recoil impulse feels odd to me. That's just my personal opinion.
We are on the same page when it comes to polymer framed anything. Yes, they work...No they dont provide both form and function and Glocks "torture tests" cant replicate one obvious critical thing- Time. How many 1st gen Glocks are still in service? That's all open to argument that I don't care to re-engage in. As I said in posting the thread, I'm looking for a hammer-fired 45.
I'm a bit worried about Tanfoglio and the cracked frame thing. But a low-ball bid on a witness compact with 4 mags seemed tantalizing. When you do something like that, then your worried you might actually win. But win or lose, I'll make the best of it.
A long time ago, I handled a (then) brand new 1911 that said "Remington Rand" on the slide. Shortly after the Army ditched even the lesser used versions of the 1911 for something that I have never even considered a good looking replacement. But theHK P7 did emerge about that time, and I always felt it was a better choice. But no one ever ask my lowly opinion.
I have only held/handled one Colt "Double Eagle" and apart from being rare, it never had any following for being ...well whatever. Sooooo. if the silly bid fails...it;s another 1911 hunt.
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Have you considered a Tanfoglio in .45? That is my second favorite .45 platform, after the 1911. Same ergonomics as a CZ, but not as bulky as the 97. Totally different feel than a 1911. Sights are easily upgraded, and Patriot has all the goodies if you want to do more to it. A good used standard model Witness can be had in $500 - 600 range.
Another vote here for the Tanfoglio/EAA Witness/Defiant .45, as I have two of them and love them!!! My all time favorite Pistols in .45 ACP
(http://i.imgur.com/mmaltq2l.jpg) (https://imgur.com/mmaltq2)
Left to Right
Tanfoglio/Witness .45 1992
Tanfoglio/Witness .45 2005
SAR K2-45 2013
My 1992 EAA Witness .45 has over 18,000 rounds through it, as it was/still is my favorite Major Power Factor for USPSA/IPSC.
I also used to use it as my main CCW Pistol in Winter and carried it in a Don Hume IWB Holster. It has also served as a
Home Defense Pistol. Over those 18,000 rounds it has needed some new Recoil Springs and I run Wolff +10% Magazine Springs.
I have also, at one time, converted it to run .45 Super for hiking in Bear Country, as backup to a Mauser Rifle in .30/06.
If it's frame was ever going to crack, I would think it would have done so by now.
My 2005 EAA Witness has been used for Defensive Pistol Classes and as a CCW. I still tend to use the 1992 Witness more.
The only reason I bought it was because I just wanted a new one I had not run hard. Not a Safe Queen, but I do tend
to shoot it sparingly.
It should be noted that EAA no longer imports and supports Tanfoglio Pistols.
Tanfoglio Pistols are now imported by the Italian Firearms Group- IFG, as the Defiant Series.
The Sarsilmaz SAR K2-45 is an interesting Pistol in .45 ACP and very well made. Mine has been accurate and reliable.
The only cons on it is that it is quite heavy, fully loaded, and the Grip is larger than the Tanfoglio Pistols.
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To my knowledge, the cracking issue was only with the 10mm version. No worries with the .45.
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Thats comforting to hear. In the reading I have been doing the Tanfoglio's have a lot of defenders/supporters in threads concerning the cracked frame issue.
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I had an FNX45 years ago and it was a really good gun. It had the mushy frame issue and went back to FN and was fixed. In the end I let it go. I would own one again for sure. There are some good Springfield 1911 options at 900 and below if you would still consider a 1911. The M&P45 is another great option i think. Police trade in can be found sometimes for great deals.
I am not familiar with the "mushy frame" issue and that model, I'll have to look it up. Yeah I'm open to another 1911, with better sights that I can still use. I've got a bid on a Tanfoglio right now, but doubt I'll be the winner, so with a show coming up another 1911 is a probable outcome.
My attitude about Smith autos is mixed. I don't know much about the M&P 45. The first and second generation 45 autos they produced had great potential but simply didn't measure up. The 645 in particular caught a lot of guys eye, stainless and especially it felt great in the hand. But so many guys had problems in use that almost everyone I knew who bought one bailed out fairly soon. Some had sights shooting off, mine grouped in the belly of a Q target with a chest hold. 2nd gen failed to stimulate the hopeful response the 1st did- not sure why. So many guys had went back to 1911s after that it may just have been reluctance to try something new again.
So the issue was when the gun got hot the frame would get very soft and it would not fire in double action. I took mine to an outdoor range and it was in sitting in the sun. I went to fire it and the trigger would go all the way to the rear and hit the frame, but the hammer would never fall. Also, you could squeeze the grip and it would flex very bad. My FNP40 did the same thing. FN repaired and returned my FNX45, but the FNP40 was out of production, so they replaced it with a new FNX40. I doubt this is still an issue with current production. Just a heads up on a used one.
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Well that constitutes a great big heaping No-Go. Geez.
I won the Tanfoglio I had bid on. Waiting for it to get here now. I may have the same trigger reach issues with it that I do with CZ 75s, but was hoping some comments I have read about the grips being not as bulky might make that not so. Guess we'll see.
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I was actually watching that compact and almost put a bid on it. I'm glad that you posted about bidding on it - saved me some money I didn't need to spend right now ;)
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There was one on a table at a local show yesterday, so I was able to handle one. However it was cocked with a zip-tie through the barrel so I couldn't see about the trigger reach in double action mode.
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For what you are looking for, a 1911 seems the best fit. A LOT of replacement sight options and there are short/standard/long reach triggers made for them, to make it a better fit for your hand.
I also have an XL palm with a L or M trigger finger.
The CZ Decockers work fine for me, with the shorter reach CGW trigger installed and THIN grips installed. Or a DA/SA converted to SA only.
A 1911 brand not mentioned is the RIA. I know they don't have the sex appeal of a bunch of others, but I have had great luck with them. I've sold a couple, but still have a few RIA 1911s, and a few 'other' 1911 brands.
My highest quality RIA 1911 is the Tac Ultra FS .45. I had Arnel at RIA replace the barrel bushing and another tweak. After the tweaks, it can produce 3 shots that touch at 15 yards [but not in my hands with my eyes].
If I didn't have a 1911 right now, I'd probably buy their Pro Ultra Match 1911. The fit of the slide to barrel is surprisingly good for the price.
Many will disagree, but I don't believe RIA's 1911s [at the Rock/Tac or Pro levels] are bottom of the barrel. I don't care for the GI though.
Now I have another wild option. Many might think it is bottom of the barrel, but they simply work: Ruger P97DC.
The bad: discontinued around 2005, in favor of the p345- parts are hard/impossible to find, if they break.
The good: recoil springs and magazines still available.
The bad: Weird recoil impulse due to unique [for time] recoil rod/system design.
The good: recoil is very manageable- not as sharp as a polymer gun sometimes is.
The bad: trigger has long takeup, rolling break and long reset [think between semi-auto and revolver].
The good: trigger DA is around 8lbs and SA is at/below 3lbs, with rolling break reducing 'staging' and flinch factor issues found on some pistols that stack just before the break.
Around 2012 I did an impromptu accuracy test of 6 .45acp handguns I had available. These were the Sig P220 Combat, HK USP .45Compact, S&W M&P .45 FS, Springfield Armory Blackened Stainless Loaded 1911, DGFM Sistema 1911 [that I had used as a custom-build platform], and a Ruger P97DC.
I did a 'range' test of 6 quick shots, as soon as I could line the sights up, of 6 different .45acp pistols at the end of my range day. That means I fired them after shooting about 500 rounds that day.
Again, 6 quickly aimed shots after 500 rounds. I know my focus and attention was slipping.
My worst group was the Sig P220 Combat. The group was about 7 1/2". The 6 rounds were spread the length of the 7+ inches-no tight group and a flyer.
My best group was the Ruger P97. The group was about 4 1/8", with 5 of the 6 being within 2 1/2 inches and then a flyer.
The M&P was second best and my Sistema was second worst.
The H&K was just a 1/4" worse than the M&P, which puts both of their groups under 4 3/4".
I was so surprised I tried the test again 3 weeks later.
This time I was better. My Ruger group was still the best at about 3 1/2" and my Sig group was still the worst at about 5 1/8". Again, the Ruger grouped 5 of 6 within about 2" and the Sig was spread across the entire 5+ inches.
A year later, I took the Ruger with me when my dad and I hit the range. He fired it, stopped, gave it a puzzled look, then fired the rest of the magazine. He was more accurate than normal with .45s, but the impulse felt 'odd' to him as well.
So- Odd impulse, but they work VERY well, and you won't be heartbroken if anything happens to it.
Just an off the wall recommendation.
From my experience, the only reason I wouldn't want the P97 for a nightstand gun is the lack of a light rail. Otherwise, I'd trust my life on it.
And, you might find it closer to $300.
Just a well-performing working-class hammer-fired .45 that losing on sex appeal but wins on function.
I still have my p97 and it will probably be my second-to-last .45acp I'll own.
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I was actually watching that compact and almost put a bid on it. I'm glad that you posted about bidding on it - saved me some money I didn't need to spend right now ;)
Well, got it today.
First impressions, glad that the (DA) trigger reach seems like it will work for me. That's still a far way from "she's a keeper!" but I am planning to do some shooting this weekend if the weather and my knee allows.
Moving on, the trigger reach issue has me second guessing some things. I had a steel framed PCR several years back that I sold, but my issues with the 75 design and trigger reach are older. I had at least two full size 75 variants in the past, and those for sure were too much trigger finger reach for me. Now I'm trying to recall if my giving up the PCR was for the same reason or not. I'm thinking it must have been, because I always felt the PCR would be the ultimate handgun for me if only for the too-long DA pull.....but "I've slept since then"as they say and since I just cant recall for certain- I plan on trying the trigger reach of the next one I see at a show or in a store.
I've read that the witness trigger reach is better than the 75s, so I know that may in fact be the case. I'll see how it shoots in the next few days. Love the feel and the looks of it.
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I was actually watching that compact and almost put a bid on it. I'm glad that you posted about bidding on it - saved me some money I didn't need to spend right now ;)
Well, got it today.
First impressions, glad that the (DA) trigger reach seems like it will work for me. That's still a far way from "she's a keeper!" but I am planning to do some shooting this weekend if the weather and my knee allows.
Moving on, the trigger reach issue has me second guessing some things. I had a steel framed PCR several years back that I sold, but my issues with the 75 design and trigger reach are older. I had at least two full size 75 variants in the past, and those for sure were too much trigger finger reach for me. Now I'm trying to recall if my giving up the PCR was for the same reason or not. I'm thinking it must have been, because I always felt the PCR would be the ultimate handgun for me if only for the too-long DA pull.....but "I've slept since then"as they say and since I just cant recall for certain- I plan on trying the trigger reach of the next one I see at a show or in a store.
I've read that the witness trigger reach is better than the 75s, so I know that may in fact be the case. I'll see how it shoots in the next few days. Love the feel and the looks of it.
I have the CGW reach reduction kit on my PCR, Rami and 97. Did not need on my others. PCR is my favorite carry pistol
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The trigger with the giant recurve always felt long to me, CZ or Tanfoglio. CGW used to offer a trigger with less curve, but I don't see it on their site now. However, you can pick up a CZ 85 "combat" trigger and drill out the pivot pin hole for the larger Tanfo pin. It's really easy to do.
That's the CGW trigger on top, and an 85 trigger on the bottom (both large frames). The 9mm has a CZ trigger as well. I actually prefer the CZ trigger.
Of course, thinner grips will help too. The stock rubber ones are rather beefy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtbvS8SS/20231116-160926.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgbtnHsd/Witness9.jpg)
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Well, where I'm at now is this- the trigger reach in DA mode on the witness seems much better than what i recall from the full size 75s I had at one point...in fact totally do-able. So, it's a matter of waiting til I handle a PCR at some show or whatever...you know maybe they weren't as "too far" as I recall.
But it's sure a renewed call to look at something. I'd love nothing more than to have the reach on a PCR work for me.
By the way some good looking pistols there.
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My P07 which is a similar size as the PCR seems to me to have a shorter reach than a stock PCR. Might be worth handling one sometime if you are looking for a 9mm in that size range.
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My P07 which is a similar size as the PCR seems to me to have a shorter reach than a stock PCR. Might be worth handling one sometime if you are looking for a 9mm in that size range.
While I would never say "never', my intent is a metal framed pistol.
If the PCR does in fact work for me in the trigger reach department...then it already has the tupperware framed guns beat for me. Do understand that that's a matter of personal preference, and not (like so many gun forum posts) just a prompt looking for an argument.
I admit that there are some plastic frame guns I would at least look at...but for me they are the "Plymouth Gran Fury" of the squad cars they reviewed for us back in the day...American equivalent of a base model Yugo...consideration based mostly on price and nothing more.
I hope I can avoid arguments about polymer framed handguns...heck, I own one (Glock, willed to me).....then again I also own a claw hammer that has a beat up plastic handle. Found it on the side of the road. Does what it's supposed to do and has it's supposed reliability heralded as wonderful...but It's maker cannot duplicate the test of time, and the ergonomics suck. As does the grip angle. nuff said. It's a Glock...thats another conversation.
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Well, got a chance to shoot the Tanfoglio today. Favorably impressed with it. Shoots to point of aim at ten and 15, recoil is moderate compared to other non-1911 45s I've shot and there were no stoppages or malfunctions of any kind. Ejection was "spirited" to say the least, with most cases evidently thrown into the next county. I only found a handful.
I cleaned it yesterday which was easy enough, but I'll never understand why anyone would sell a dirty gun. The sights are a 3 dot arrangement, not my favorite but they do work. The front sight dot is red, I don't know if someone painted it or if it came that way- either way it will soon be painted white.
I even found a holster in my stuff that it fits in perfectly. Happy situation.
But it's not a 1911. I didn't let all my 1911 mags go with the pistol. I guess deep down I knew I would have to get another with better (for me) sights. So, the Tanfoglio is staying, but a new hunt goes on.... 8)
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Well, got a chance to shoot the Tanfoglio today. Favorably impressed with it. Shoots to point of aim at ten and 15, recoil is moderate compared to other non-1911 45s I've shot and there were no stoppages or malfunctions of any kind. Ejection was "spirited" to say the least, with most cases evidently thrown into the next county. I only found a handful.
I cleaned it yesterday which was easy enough, but I'll never understand why anyone would sell a dirty gun. The sights are a 3 dot arrangement, not my favorite but they do work. The front sight dot is red, I don't know if someone painted it or if it came that way- either way it will soon be painted white.
I even found a holster in my stuff that it fits in perfectly. Happy situation.
But it's not a 1911. I didn't let all my 1911 mags go with the pistol. I guess deep down I knew I would have to get another with better (for me) sights. So, the Tanfoglio is staying, but a new hunt goes on.... 8)
That's good to hear! I had a feeling you'd like it. Everyone that shoots mine really enjoys it. You can reduce the distance the brass flies, and mitigate the recoil some, with a different recoil spring. Get a few different weights and try them out. Based on my experience, with my .45, I wouldn't mess with the hammer spring.
Find a 1911 you like, disregard the sights on it, and install sights that suit your likes and needs. I sold a 9mm commander last year, because I hardly ever shot it. I still have five 9mm 1911 magazines....
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Is your Tanfoglio 45 a compact like this one I bought?
I even went back out this afternoon, figuring in the different light I'd spot more cases- nada. ???
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No, mine is a full size. A compact is definitely on my want list though.