The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: Joe L on April 20, 2024, 10:42:12 AM
-
A few weeks ago I launched my CGW non-captured guide rod in my shop area, then could not find it, so I found the factory captured guide rod and spring assembly and installed it. I've shot the gun several times since and started seeing one problem that I had had originally with the pistol but forgotten about, and, which was mostly solved by going to the non-captured CGW guide rod...
I normally shoot 10 rounds at a time, twenty rounds total per B-6c target, at 100 yards, 2 or 3 targets per range visit. So I have a slide lock reload just before shots 1 and 11 on each target. I usually video the range session and then match up the holes with the shot sequence, so I know which hole was shot 1, which was shot 2, etc. On days when I get 5 or 6 good shots in a row, I make a video, but that doesn't happen every range trip!
On Tuesday of last week, I shot three targets, so 6 ten shot sequences. Of those six, the first shot of 4 of the six magazine reloads hit high, as in out of video frame, barely on the backer high, so 8"-12" high. I would count 18 holes in the repair center target and find one or two holes high but centered. The consistency here is what got me thinking. The first shot of nearly every magazine hit high.
When I got home, I took the slide off and checked for recoil spring tension with the barrel in the locked up position in the slide. The guide rod nearly fell out, there was just barely enough tension to hold it in place. Good thing is, I've never launched a captured guide rod assembly in the shop! Bad thing is...I think...there isn't enough tension left to get the barrel to lock up tightly against the top of the slide from a slide lock reload. On recoil, for shots 2-10, the barrel lands pretty much in the same position every time. There is a little vertical play which isn't bad as long as the barrel goes to the same side of the slop every time the slide cycles. There has to be some play to allow the gun to cycle reliably, especially when it gets a little dirty. Mine are always a little dirty.
Note that this change in barrel lockup position is only significant for me when shooting at a 100 yards, an 8" shift at 25 yards is only 2", which isn't a problem unless you are shooting golf balls, I guess. But the deviation IS a concern to someone shooting 100 yards.
My replacement CGW guide rod will be here Monday, and I might get to test again on Tuesday of next week.
I may also shim the barrel a few thousandths (like I did with the C and S barrels) if I can do so without creating a new problem. I'm pretty sure just going back to the non-captured guide rod will eliminate the 1st shot high issue, as I believe this was not an issue before I lost the first CGW guide rod, which had been in place for a couple of years.
I'll make a before and after video next week based on what I learn, if I have anything interesting to show. I'll also be putting the Apex kits in the C and S pistols, if and when I ever get the right trigger bars in from CZ-usa. I'm getting kinda itchy to shoot the P-10S again, but it is damp outside today and rain is in the forecast for another day or two, and that may delay any testing until late next week.
Joe L
-
The barrel vertical was 0.008-0.012" measured with a dial indicator with the gun assembled. this is consistent roughly with what I observed on Thursday--about a mil play will cause an inch shift in the hole with a 4.5" barrel. So, I added an 0.008" shim plus epoxy, let it set for 3 hours, filed it flat and smooth, and went for a check fit, fully expecting to have to file one or two mil off the shim, but no, the slide slid right on. (I had to do some fitting on the P-10S when I first tried it.) But I couldn't feel any vertical and the gun cycled fine by hand, cold. I thought it would be too tight!
I'll wait to declare victory until I run it hot and see how it cycles. If it cycles, the vertical play is gone, even with the factory captured guide rod. I'm still going to put the CGW non-captured guide rod in the gun before shooting it again, just to guarantee some consistency. I SHOULD have to adjust the sight down say 2-4 clicks at 100 yards to compensate for the new barrel position in lock-up with the shim in place. Gun should hit high when I first try it. I will put the target low in the target frame until I see where I am, make a zero adjustment, then center the target and try it again. This will take maybe 10 shots. I hope.
I just want to get back to some sub 4" five shot groups at 100 yards with the plastic gun!
Joe
-
Joe- interesting observations- I wouldn’t have thought of that happening.
Am curious, do you run the oem recoil spring in your P10c or non captured set up like on your F? If so what vendor & spring weight do you use?
-
Non-captured in the C, can't recall the weight, probably stock or 2 lb heavier spring. I usually buy several weights from gunsprings.com or CGW and use the heaviest one which will still allow the gun to cycle with a light 130PF ammo. But I don't do run and gun--the heavy spring gets the best consistency in lock up and I don't send brass 20 feet to my right.
Keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with a little vertical play at the chamber end of the barrel, usually. The recoil spring tends to push the barrel upward, taking up the play, with enough tension. This is why the gun shoots so well after the first shot even without the shim. But the first shot lock up from a slide lock is different with the captured spring and my guess is that it is from the captured length being a little too short, at least on my gun. If I can easily take up some of the possible movement anyway with a shim, why not do it and eliminate one more variable? It certainly worked with the S and C pistols--until I replaced the C factory barrel with a Primary Machine version without a shim. The S pistol has had the shim in place for maybe 1-2k rounds without any issues. I'll probably shim the C this week after testing the F. I have Primary Machine barrels now in both the F and C pistols, factory in the S. The S has the factory compound captured spring assembly and I haven't even looked for a non-captured replacement. It had the worst 1st shot problem when new and was pretty good after a shim without changing the recoil spring assembly.
I think the local outdoor range will be dried out by Tuesday morning. I'm looking forward to testing the new shim and old guide rod/spring then. Assuming Fedex makes it today with my second CGW guide rod.
Joe L
Joe L
-
I've now had two good range sessions with the P-10F with the shim and my brand new shiny CGW stainless steel guide rod. I got to get out Tuesday morning in the wind and then Thursday morning in damp but calm conditions. Damp and calm is better.
The 1st shot high is gone now, as in first shots for a slide lock reload are indistinguishable from the following 9. Groups were generally larger than normal on Tuesday but I did get one very good 5 shot group, video in the range report section.
Thursday, I shot 20 rounds of IMI to see where I was with no wind and had to make a 2 click right adjustment to center things up at 100 yards, but the groups were good, so I changed to the Atlanta Arms ammo for the next two 20 shot targets. I guessed at 2 right and 3 down clicks to get it close, shot 10 rounds and saw that I had gone way too far, so I backed those adjustments out for the second 10 on the second target. The second 10 shots are shown in the video, indicating zero is still maybe 1 click too high but close enough now to proceed with a "good" target, LOL.
https://youtu.be/xY2X6O0FZJw?si=wTOKDGFt3O0MhfZt (https://youtu.be/xY2X6O0FZJw?si=wTOKDGFt3O0MhfZt)
Then I put up a fresh large target with a fresh B-6C repair center with the larger bullseye and shot the second 10 round sequence in the video (first 10 on the fresh target), making 20 pretty good shots in a row, kind of unusual for me! Through the scope, the results looked great, so I finished off the target with a second 10 round sequence (not included in the video) but eye fatigue was getting to me by then so I had a couple of bad shots. I knew then that I was done for the day, so I gathered up all my damp targets and camera gear and went home, very happy with the day's results--two good 10 shot groups in a row, each around 6" at 100 yards with a plastic service pistol. A good day indeed.
Joe L
-
Here is a photo of the barrel shim, crude as it is--cut with scissors, flattened out somewhat with a medicine bottle, then smoothed out with a file, kinda.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2BkXcGB/0/FcckSsF7sFwvGPNvkKFjxvsrShfDJz5tjCNRV69kV/M/i-2BkXcGB-M.jpg)
Joe L
-
JoeL- thanks for answering my Q and apologies for tardy reply- was out of state shooting a sanctioned IDPA match w/ my P10c( which ran fine BTW in a constant rain over 9 stages)
-
No problem--how'd you do in the match?
Joe
-
Missed taking my classification level in CCP by 1/2 second :o, but more importantly had a fun time on some challenging stages. Did well on swingers, surprisingly.
-
Here is what the last 80 rounds looked like from the shimmed P-10F barrel. First 11-1/2" 80 round group I've ever shot.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-D67Wn9f/0/3kZVvhP7Grx5SG3Z6fgtKJhNNvbqsT7pB4r6TDjq/XL/i-D67Wn9f-XL.jpg)
At 100 yards. Atlanta Arms 115 JHP ammo.
Joe L
-
Great shooting. Am always impressed with your long range shooting