Post by: Glockguy-23 on April 22, 2002, 04:48:18 PM
For targets, I used the IALEFI-QP. The same target used when training students. The "bottle" area represents the FBI-Q target, and the gray area represents the target most commonly used by law enforcement agencies, in their qualifications.
Now for the firing. Before running the two guns, side by side, I put about 300 rounds through the CZ, just to make sure it was functioning, ok. I used reloads, S&B and Fiocchi. In all types of ammo, I experienced failures to extract/feed. Basically, the ammo was just not completely cycling the slide. When I fill the mags with full power, Golden Sabers, the gun ran, without a hitch.
Next, I ran a few through it, just to see where the sights were set. They were fine, so I started the comparative shooting. My preferred shooting stance has always been a modified Weaver (which can also be used as an interview stance, a fighting stance, etc.). Because of this, all shooting was done from this position. No rests of any kind. In the case of the CZ, all shots were SA.
The targets below reflect the results of shooting 5 rounds from each gun at 5, 10, 15, 20 and 25 yards. The inner circle is 8". The outer is 10". As you can see, both guns preformed well under this scenario. Though the Glock would have actually scored higher, because of the two flyers from the CZ, the CZ held a tighter group. I attribute the flyers to the very rough SA trigger on the CZ (That can be fixed). On the other hand, the Glock has Meprolight nights, as opposed to the CZ's standard sights. The smaller dots and thinner sights actually allow for more precision shooting with the CZ. This might also be part of the reason that it holds such a tight pattern.(http://www.ballisticreview.com/images/glockcz.jpg)
The third target was shot, off hand, in the same Weaver stance, from 100 yds. Note that 9 of the 10 shots are within the standard LE target, with only one shot outside. Three of the shots are actually in the bottle. Excellent accuracy. I didn't shoot the Glock from that range, but have in the past and with similar results...(http://www.ballisticreview.com/images/cz.jpg)
Next was a practical test. I purposely used the first stage of the Air Marshal Quals, to get a feeling for how the CZ would handle from the holster. The stage is simple. Draw from the holster and fire one shot, at 7 yds. Shot must hit the target to qualify the time. Shooting the CZ C&L, I was able to get into the 1.00's and 1.10's, with the best time being 1.03 seconds. With the Glock, I was about .1 sec. faster, across the board. Best time was .94 sec. Two things, here. I've put over 100k rounds through various Glocks in the past coupla' years and I wasn't having to drop the a safety, as I was with the CZ. Personally I don't think the safety was slowing me down, but a bit more practice will tell.
Pluses for the CZ:
Very good accuracy.
Well balanced and good fit.
Cool factor through the roof...
Drawbacks:
Only functioned properly with the highest powered ammo.
The mags, if dropped, ingested dust like a vacuum cleaner, becoming non-functional.
Very rough trigger.
Basically, I think the CZ is a very fine gun. In my experience, however, it is not perfect, out of the box. A trigger job is a must! Will need to be properly tuned (spring changes, etc) to function with standard practice ammo. Oh yeah, gonna' need some locktight on the grip screws to keep them from falling off...
Had to get out the screwdriver every 100 or so rounds and tighten them down...So there you have it! As compared to the Glock, the CZ-75B .40 did very well. Until the reliability issue is solved, I would not trust it with my life, but I do believe this issue can be worked out. After all, gotta' get it ready for some IDPA stuff, right Chuck?
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on April 22, 2002, 06:01:30 PM
After about six months, my 40B (with a trigger job before I even shot it) is just now getting a good trigger.
My 85 Combat shoots right with the best guns I've shot, including a now-departed P-210-6, with the 210 getting a big edge beyond 20 yards.
(I had a very nice Glock 17, and love a friend's Glock 34; those are the only two Glocks that even talk to me... But I shoot my 85 Combat far better; it just fits my hand better.)
Post by: Glockguy-23 on April 22, 2002, 06:14:44 PM
Any suggestions on the target ammo problem? Recoil spring weight?
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on April 22, 2002, 07:11:39 PM
(The trigger on the CZ-40B was a little rough, too, but also heavy as hell... Its still heavier than I'd like, but from C&L breaks very cleanly, and its smoothness makes it tolerable.)
Post by: Glockguy-23 on April 22, 2002, 08:53:07 PM
Post by: ut83 on April 22, 2002, 08:53:20 PM
My 83 has a little more creep than I like but cant complain too much...its about as it gets "outa the box".
Your failures to e/f are strange....fiocchi seems to be pretty hot in the calibers I shoot. I guess the gun you bought just wants the good stuff. Welcome to the club......I sincerely enjoy reading your stuff. Keep it up.
Shoot well
Post by: SteveYC on April 22, 2002, 10:37:00 PM
There were 2 things I noticed about my PCR:
1) The magazine lips weren't as smooth as I'd like
2) The slide rails were rougher than I'd expected
I think these caused some problems I had with hand cycling.
If the idea of some light sanding doesn't bother you, then 600 grit sandpaper and 0000 steel wool are more than enough to smooth things out.
Oddly, I think my PCR was originally undersprung, since the slide whacks into the frame a lot more obviously than on the full sized model I shot.
I also noticed that the surface of the FP safety where the trip lever pushes it up is really rough, which probably adds to roughness in the trigger pull. I need to get a roll pin punch before I mess with it though.
Steve
Post by: dleong on April 23, 2002, 06:22:03 AM
I have a satin nickel 40 cal. 75B that was manufactured in 2001 (according to the stamp behind the ejection port). Of my three CZs, this pistol has the smoothest trigger pull and an incredibly crisp break--I did not deem a trigger job necessary (unlike the trigger on my 9mm 75B which, out of the box, felt ridiculously gritty).
You might recall that I wrote about the accuracy problems I was having with my 75B/40 a few weeks ago. Since then, after having discharged a few hundred rounds through the pistol, I have discovered the problem was *not* the pistol, but rather my inexperience with the recoil characteristics of the 75B/40. Installing a 22 lb Wolff recoil spring and modifying my stance and grip has all but eliminated that problem; I am now obtaining the same degree of accuracy on the 75B/40 as I am with my 75B/9 and 97B at similar distances.
Your failures to extract/feed are somewhat perplexing. Based on your description of the problem, it appears that, strangely enough, a *weaker* recoil spring would be the solution. I have been shooting a combination of Winchester 180 gr. FMJ factory ammo and reloads (155 gr. Rainier atop 6.2 grs. of Universal Clays for an OAL of 1.120") with absolutely zero problems on my 75B/40 thus far, with both the stock 13 lb factory and 22 lb Wolff recoil springs. Would a stronger magazine spring help with the feed problem?
Just out of curiosity, what is the year of manufacture of your 75B/40? Did it come with Mec-Gar mags?
DL
Post by: cz40va on April 23, 2002, 06:39:21 AM
Post by: Glockguy-23 on April 23, 2002, 01:21:19 PM
There's an 00 behind the ejection port, so I assume 2000 manufacture. Rails and feed lips (on factory and Mac Gar mags) are fairly smooth, at least to the point where I cannot believe they would cause a problem. Seems that the action was cycling enough to pickup another round, but not enough to eject the fired case, causing a double. The high powered stuff cured the problem. I was under the impression that the CZ came with an 18 lb recoil spring. Dropping the weight a coupla pounds would probably solve the problem, but I think I'm going to work with the reloads a little, first.
The definite click in the trigger, before stacking and releasing is in the lower end, as it does it with the slide removed. I can see a slight movement of the parts around the sear, then they stop. From that point on, the trigger feels pretty good. Only a slight scratch...
Post by: Oldnslow on April 23, 2002, 03:30:55 PM
Groups fired off-hand, without a rest, are always unreliable. At best, they are an indicator of potential after the flyers are thrown out. There are too many variable factors in off-hand shooting for accurate comparisons to be made between pistols. Shooting stance, hand grip, length of trigger finger, trigger pull, length of sight radius and sight design can all influence the results and differences are often undetected by the shooter. Bench rest shooting with lots of sandbags is better and a locked down test stand, if one is handy, is the best.
Another consideration when testing for accuracy is the ammunition. Different combinations of ammunition and pistols will yield different results. The same ammunition in two different pistols may produce widely different groups. Pistols usually shoot best with a specific round; different pistols do best with different rounds. Also, barrel length is an important factor.
The recoil problem is unusual. I've only got some 400+ rounds through mine so far, but it has fed everything with absolutely NO problems. (I may post a list of tested rounds, including chrono numbers, after I finish testing in a month or so.) You should ensure that you are not using a limp wrist technique before looking at anything else. If that is eliminated, then you should talk to CZ-USA. You may have some binding in the slide or barrel someplace and it just needs some polishing or finishing. It may also just need a bit of oil. I would not recommend a weaker recoil spring based on my experience, but it may be that yours is out of spec or is stronger than mine.
I've shot mine at three local fun shoots since I got it and the local range/store I shoot at has started stocking the CZs because of it. Out of a dozen shooters a couple of weeks ago there were two CZ clones in addition to mine. Local interest is taking off due to the performance of my CZ. I even had a Kimber user take a serious look.
Post by: Glockguy-23 on April 23, 2002, 04:40:06 PM
I can say that, 'cuz I ain't no spring checken, my-own-self... I appreciate all the comments. Let me address a few. First, as a defensive handgun instructor, I believe strongly in avoiding conditional branching. That is, using different techniques under different circumstances. Too many techniques can cause trouble in a situation where your training is called for, in a hurry. That's why I shoot everything from my normal stance, without a rest. You're absolutely right, that it doesn't give a perfect picture of the pistols potential, but I'm only looking for combat accuracy, which, incidently, the CZ has in spades.
The feeding failures and subsequent successes with high power ammo, point to the recoil spring. I made sure that I was not limp wristing. I've got lots of experience in handgun shooting, and haven't limp wristed one in, oh hell, a billion years...
Anyway, your comment about the out of spec spring got me to thinking. I did notice that the slide was "very" hard to rack. The spring is a twisted wire that is then coiled. Like I said, very heavy. I may replace it with a Wolff spring, just to be sure.I put 500 rounds through it this past weekend, and the previous owner had about 250 through it when I got it. All surfaces are well machined and smooth. I'll do some more looking and eventually get to the bottom of this. Very happy with the pistol, overall...
Post by: Unregistered(d) on April 28, 2002, 08:51:55 AM
Post by: Glockguy-23 on April 30, 2002, 05:05:31 PM
BTW, tell your buddy that any armorer should be able to fix his Glock on the spot.
Post by: ut83 on April 30, 2002, 06:16:13 PM
There were some problems with the extactors on some guns...call Mike at CZUSA. He may send you a new assembly...would be worth a try. Shoot well
Post by: Glockguy-23 on April 30, 2002, 06:52:59 PM
Post by: dlsolt on May 04, 2002, 04:29:16 PM
Post by: Glockguy-23 on May 05, 2002, 05:06:27 PM
Post by: Glockguy-23 on May 09, 2002, 06:02:37 PM
Post by: Glockguy-23 on May 12, 2002, 08:06:08 PM
For the most part, the CZ performed very well. The gun went 200 rounds, without a hitch. My confidence is growing. Now its time to put it to the real test.
First some background on the COF. I call it the run and gun, where we put the student up against 6 armed assailents, in "gang" fashion. Basically, the student has found himself in a bad area, for whatever reasons, and is faced by 6 hoodlums who want to do him harm. At contact distance, the students draws and begins to defend himself, moving and shooting as he goes. Time and number of rounds varies, depending on how much ammo we feel like shooting...
Anyway, I loaded up 5 mags and started the drill. My intention was to run the full 50 rounds through the CZ. All was fine, until I hit the 4th mag. About half way through, I got a FTE. While moving, I cleared the malf and loaded the last mag. Three shots into that mag, I got another FTE. Retaining the mag, then clearing the gun, I reinserted the mag and finished the exercise.The way I see it, the malfs could have been caused by one or both of two things. I can't rule out the possibility of limp wristing a shot, or two, although I ran the same drill, several times with the G23, without a single problem. The second thing is dirt. The range conditions are very dusty, and it is possible that that, plus the previous 200 rounds were just too much for the CZ's tight tollerances. The gun now has 1000 rounds through it, so should be loosening up. I'll clean it this week, as well as the mags, and give it another run next weekend.
All in all, the new extractor and spring seem to have cured the problem, but until I can get it 100%, under all conditions, I'll still be searching...
Now, just so everyone knows just how severe the run and gun is, we normally run 20 rounds (two mags, and all rounds must be shot), with a time limit of 20 seconds. Most students finish (with a reload) in about 16 seconds. My times are generally in the 11's, with my best being a 9.87. BTW, all targets must have 2 hits in a kill zone for the student to pass.
Come on down to the party, in two weeks, if you want to get in on some ot this kind of action...
Post by: Glockguy-23 on May 19, 2002, 08:51:21 PM
Post by: Objekt on June 02, 2003, 09:40:45 PM
Like you, I've had some FTE's. It happened 4 times in the first 150 rounds. After the 4 FTEs I called CZ. They offered to do warranty work but also suggested I give it another 100-200 rounds to "break in." Since mailing a gun is a huge pain in the keister, that's what I did, and the problem seems to have gone away. I have now shot an additional 110 rounds trouble-free.
The left grip being loose when I got the gun. I tightened it before the last 50 rounds, but won't know until after more shooting whether it will work itself loose.
Before shooting that last 110 rounds, I replaced the stock 14 lb recoil spring with a Wolff 16 lb spring. I don't see why this should have anything to do with FTEs, but I haven't had any since changing the spring.
All ammo has been Winchester white box (*not* Winclean), in the following loads:
-200 rounds 180 gr FMJ
-50 rounds 165 gr FMJ
-10 rounds 180 gr jacketed hollowpoint
Two other CZ 75B .40 owners have said the Winchester seemed to cause FTEs, as they had no trouble with other brands. Maybe some Fiocchi is in my future.
My trigger pull is smooth as can be in both SA and DA, although it does seem a tad long in DA. The only thing I dislike slightly is the small amount of "wiggle room" at the beginning of trigger travel, where the trigger is deflected but nothing is happening inside the gun. The pull there is very light. Maybe I just prefer a solid-all-the-way pull, which is what I seem to recall on the various Glock 17's I've shot in the past.
As for accuracy, I have shot very little before now, so the biggest problem is the trigger actuator. When I manage to shoot properly it seems to be dead on. I may buy CZ's tritium night sights.
Jury's out on concealed carry, but if I can convince myself there will be no more FTE's I see no reason not to do so. First, though, I have to take the class and get a CC permit (which may not even be possible - I live in CA).
Last week I ordered 500 rounds of Sellier & Bellot. The only thing they make in .40 S&W is 180 gr FMJ. I figured, Czech gun, Czech ammo, how could I lose? I'll post again once I've shot a couple hundred rounds of the S&B.
Post by: rpbrock on June 20, 2003, 06:51:55 PM
I have fed my '03 Satin Nickel 40 a steady diet of S&B 180s without a hitch since I got it a while back. I have also been feeding it 155 grn TCJs repops at your suggestion (by the way thanks!) without any problems either. I did go ahead and outfit it with a 20 LB. Wolff right after I got it as per DLeongs suggestion and it seems to function perfectly. I would like to have the trigger tweeked and smoothed at some point but it outshoots my capabilities as it sits. I enjoyed reading your comments about the 75-40. Thanks for posting them.
rpb - my .02 cents
Post by: cs1sales on October 25, 2003, 01:15:15 AM
Is your review a go or no go? I have seen several of these guns for sale and have been seriously thinking of buying one. What is the bottom line on the 40 cal CZ?
Tim
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on October 25, 2003, 06:01:17 AM
They're good guns, and may be one of the best of the CZs.
(I don't have one -- in .40 --., but will eventually.)