The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ75, 75b, 75 SAO inc the Transitional => Topic started by: CM Rich on July 28, 2008, 09:05:52 PM
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Been meaning to post some pics of my favorite acquisition, but I wanted to try and get a decent camera first. No dice, so I'll make due with what I've got for the time being. I'll use links instead of posting them all here in the topic as to avoid killing anyone's browser.
'78 Pic 1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/78CZ751.jpg)
'78 Pic 2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/78CZ752.jpg)
'78 Pic 3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/78CZ753.jpg)
Paired with my customized '07 "guinea pig" 75B:
Pic 1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/CZPair5.jpg)
Pic 2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/CZPair4.jpg)
Pic 3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/CZPair1.jpg)
Pic 4 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/CZPair2.jpg)
Pic 5 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/CZPair3.jpg)
Some people here know where I got this thing- a heated bidding war on Gunbroker, where there were actually TWO short rails of similar condition up for grabs simultaneously. I happened to have been saving for a SHADOW at the time, but when this was brought to my attention I immediately dedicated myself to getting it. I've wanted a short rail since my teenage years, and I knew this might be my one and only chance to nab one in the sub-1,000 range. Everything just seemed to be in alignment.
I recieved the gun in pretty good condition, all things considered. It was indeed a South Africa service pistol, as was common for many of the early 75s due to the US embargo against the Eastern Bloc. This gun is Parkerized, having been refinished due to the original glossy blue having been worn away. It was missing its original waffle-style grips, but aside from that it had all of its original parts and was in perfect working order. All of the internals appeared to be near new.
There are only a few patches of what I'd consider light pitting, mainly beneath the slide stop lever, safety, and grip area, as well as the left side of the front end of the slide. There are the usual nicks and very minor blemishes to be found in a 30 year old service gun, but all in all I'm very pleased with the condition. Its still a very handsome and presentable piece.
As I search for a real pair of original grips, I pirated some replicas off of an airsoft gun. They do the job, but aren't meant to be a permanent solution. I've contacted Omega of Omega Grips for a special request in the meantime, and I hope to hear back from him soon.
I've also contacted AWP Cogan about refinishing, as well as some gunsmithing work. I was originally going to send it to Angus, and ask him to send it to Cogan, but with shipping charges so outrageous. And not to mention my own apprehension about shipping valuable firearms around the nation. Since Cogan offers gunsmithing and refinishing all in-house, I decided to take that option. I'm hoping Angus doesn't take it personally.
As luck would have it, just today I was at the range/shop when I glanced into a discount bin of mags. Believe it or not, but in plain view were not one, but TWO pre-B mags! Without thinking, I pulled the CZ from its case and tested the fit- perfect! Though I got yelled at for handling my gun without store supervision (an admitted blunder and display of lack of common sense on my part that I quickly apologized for), it ended up being a very, very good deal at only 10 bucks a mag. All they need are some new springs and they'll be ready to roll.
I'll be calling CZ-USA soon to check and see if they have any spare parts for the Retro model laying around- I'll definately be getting some slide stops, and maybe a safety lever or two, if they have them in stock still.
Back to Cogan, I have some special ideas in mind for the gun to make it worth the trip. I debated whether or not to completely restore the gun to factory spec, including the blue finish, but I thought better of it. As much as I love the look and feel of a genuine master blue finish, I don't like the high maintainence aspect involved. I've decided to compromise, looking to their Cerakote finish in SOCOM blue. I've also asked if they'll spray it with a gloss clear ceramic finish (from the same company that makes Cerakote, NIC Industries). I'm hoping they'll get back to me soon as well.
Along with filling in the pitting and touching up the roll marks, I'm asking them to add Jim Miossi's Custom Hard sear while they do a full action job. I'm also asking them to tighten up the slide and frame fit- its just a wee bit loose right now, but nothing catastrophic. I've also asked if they'll be able to retrofit a new barrel into the gun, and to re-engrave the original serial number into the breech face after filling in the new number.
The trigger, both barrels, and hammer would be hard chromed, and finished in a semi-polish look. With the dark blue Cerakote and some nice Omega American walnut full checker grips, this will make for a very striking appearance.
Perhaps you want to know how the gun actually performs? I'm pleased to report that it is at least on par with its contemporary B ancestors. The grip is the same as the B models- a definate good thing, proving the Koucky brothers got it right the first time. The only difference is found in the tang, which flips up very slightly towards the end instead of continuing over the hand. I actually prefer the Bs tang design to this, myself.
This is a very early CZ 75, as evidenced by its hammer, which lacks the safety notches. This pretty much means that the only mechanical safety feature on this gun was the safety switch itself, and that was it.
Trigger pull in DA is amazing. I don't know if its because it had time to break in over all thes eyears, the lack of the firing pin block, or both, but either way, the trigger is amazingly smooth and light, with a very crisp break. SA mode is also exceptional, even more so than stock Bs. I wouldn't go so far as to claim its better than the CZ 75 SA's, or my "street jobbed" custom B with the steel adjustable trigger, but its definately a sweet trigger. The shape of the trigger also helps, as its less curved, providing about two millimeters of extra reach. With thin grips, this makes a vast difference.
The sights are very small, and demand your full concentration in order to maximize their potential. No night sights here; not even white paint. Just old school "line up them notches". I get a kick out them, since I seem to do better with them than my fancy fiber optic sights. Could be psychological, however.
In shooting the vintage 75, recoil is very managable, but I have yet to master this gun. I'm a relatively new shooter (started in March of this year), so I still have alot to learn. However, I'm learning with such a fine tool that demands full respect and attention that I think that will help me in the long run. My personal best group at this point has been 3 and 1/2 inches at 25 feet using this gun (using a two-handed, aggresive iscosoles stance). I actually seem to shoot consistantly better using a one-handed power stance, strangely enough. Today I got a 4 inch group at 25 using this stance and gun, with two strays.
With 500 rounds down its pipe since it appeared in my hands, the old CZ has only given me two stovepipes thus far. It feeds my favorite ammo types flawlessly- Winchester WBB (best bang for my buck, in my opinion), and Hornady TAP FPD, with its super smooth black nickle finished cases. You can definately feel a difference between these two rounds- you really can feel a difference in how the Hornady feeds. It must be tried in order to understand. However, I seem most accurate using plain ol' white box.
I also have allowed some of my friends to put a few mags through it. A friendof mine from Canada, who rarely gets to shoot, managed an impressive 2 inch group at 25'. My best friend's old lady was pretty impressive for her first time ever shooting, though her jewelry put some harm onto the CZ's Parked finish :(.
Oh well. Its even more of an excuse to get it refinished!
All in all, this gun has actually managed to live up to my boyhood expectations. All I need to do is live up to what the gun is capable of.
And believe it or not, I plan on qualifying for my CCW with ths same gun before I send it away for its refinishing. If I can pass with this thing, I can pass with anything, I figure. Plus, I plan on very rarely carrying it in a Bianchi X15 shoulder rig. I have a personal creed of carrying any gun I happen to own for self defense. I do not planon owning junk guns at any point. I would carry it on Condition One, stocked with Hornady TAP FTP. I'd feel perfectly safe with this set up.
In closing, I believe that everyone has a gun that fits them to a T. I believe that I have been fortunate enough to know ahead of time what mine might have been, and to have realized it so soon. And I couldn't be happier.
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Great review. I'm going to re-read it and post again later to do it justice.
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Beautiful pistol - my dad had one just like it as his first CZ in 1977.
I have a question about its ancestry, however - I lived in South Africa for 30 years and the CZ was never the SA Police service pistol (they used the Walther P38 and then the Beretta 92, later using an SA-made clone of the Beretta called the Z88). I'm curious why you think it was an issue-pistol, because I've heard the same claim on another forum and it's not how I remember it.
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We've had SA members who identified it as an issue pistol. I don't know much about law enforcement in SA. Do the provinces and townships have law enforcement at that level, or is it all national? For example, the U.S. has Federal law enforcement (FBI, DEA, etc.), State law enforcement (mosty the various state police forces, some "alphabet agencies" too), county law enforcement (sheriffs) and local law enforcement (municipal police departments). In other words, some other department or agency other than the national police force may have issued them. It never occurred to me to doubt them, because CZs are as common as dirt in SA.
We had a member from SA who ended up immigrating to Canada. He owned a farm near Pretoria. He would send us news stories of real shooting incidents involving CZs. One in particular that I recall involved police breaking up a robbery at a KFC in JoBurg. This was about eight years ago, so my memory may just be lousy.
Anyway, I did some internet research recently to help a fellow from JoBurg select a first pistol. We discovered that once you leave Johannesburg, Durban, and Pretoria, you are pretty much limited to CZs, Norincos, and South African makes (i.e. Vektor, RAP) in 9mm, as far as what the shops carry.
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The SA Police Service is national - there's no difference between a policeman in Cape Town and one in Johannesburg or Pretoria. There are different units, of course - Flying Squad, Highway Patrol, Special Task Force (in Afrikaans = "Taakmag"), etc. Task Force guys are more than just SWAT - they're selected and trained just about to the same level as Special Forces operators - and I'm wondering if they would be the ones to have CZs, seeing as they can use whichever weapons they like. I haven't lived there for about 4 years now (3 years here, 1 in the sandbox) but I used to shoot with some Taakies in Cape Town and while they definitely admired the pistol, none of those boys had them in those days.
What I'm getting at, though, is that I've never heard or seen the CZ being a general-issue weapon in the SAPS and I'm curious as to who actually used them.
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I honestly can't remember where I first heard that the original 75s were South African favorites, but I never really doubted it. From what I've come to understand, South Africa was the only country officially using them in the first few years of its existance. It wouldn't be until later when the Swiss police gave the pistol its first major contract. Some say the Swiss stipulated that the 75 need to change to the current 3/4 rail design. I don't how much of that I buy. I personally think CZ was going to switch to the newer design in either case due to fears of frame failures persisting.
My gun has a service number stamped on the frame, slide, and barrel. Its very faint, so it didn't show up in the photos above. The number is RA155.
What I don't know is what branch of South African government used the CZ75. Given their very limited numbers, and this gun's nearly perfect shape and function (aside from the original finish and grips being gone, all of its mechanics are apparently original and pristine. This leads me to believe that perhaps they weren't a field pistol, and perhaps issued to officials not directly in the line of fire, who carried full-sized guns.
I'm probably going to take the time soon to send my serial number to CZ and see where this gun has been. Anyone ever done such a thing through CZ?
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The slide stop from a retro will probably work with your older CZ, but its highly unlikely that the safety will be compatible. The Retro is a 75B made to look like an older CZ, and the parts for the safety seem quite different, including an internal (on the frame) detent on the Retro. Cz has few pre-B specific parts, absolutely none of the older-design safeties. (We've all asked.)
You've gotten a nice gun, but its a bit like marrying a "trophy" wife: will you be able to afford the exercise.
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What I don't know is what branch of South African government used the CZ75.
I'd be really interested to hear what you discover - I'll also email that RA-number to an SAP friend of mine and see if he's able to turn anything up on his side.
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About two years ago, one importer brought in a bunch of pre-Bs from South Africa. The story they told us was that the guns had been used as service weapons in a police force, but I never got a good explanation as to what police force.
A number of members at the time bought some of the guns, which varied from almost pristine, to pretty rough -- all at very reasonable prices. None of these guns were short-rail models, as far as I know.
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I just got a reply from my mate Craig, who's with a unit of the SAPS in Cape Town - here's what he has to say:
Yeah sure. The SAPS have never ever ever ever ever in its history used or issued Czech weapons mate.. that's easy.. In 1992 we were issued for the first time with the Z88 and Beretta in 9mmP, prior to that we were all issued the Walther P38 9mmP (8 shot capacity) and ladies or u/cover the Walther PPk in 9mm Short.
For a short while, some Beretta Model 84s were in use chambered for 9mm short. The only other pistols in use are currently the RAP which is a locally made 9mmP with an 8 shot mag (aka the CRAP!) and the H&K USP by the Special Task Force who have well, whatever they want really.
The CZ would never have been taken into service by us purely because it would have come from a commie country, cost more than the local stuff, been single action and therefore not suited to police work - hell even the old P38 wasn't too bad as a pea shooter.
I'll triple check with the armourer but will put my nuts on it mate, I had a CZ75 at one stage, lovely weapons but definitely not suited to cops with minimal training because of the single action.
Just called a mate quickly who's been in for 35 years plus and he agrees, only the weapons above in the order above and definitely no CZ. Will check that serial no, but its' at a glance a digit short for having come from here. Will double check that though.
C
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Another reply:
Armourer says the predecessor to the P38 was a .38 spl revolver and the CZ definitely didn't feature as a service weapon. One of the guys at the armoury in Jhb says it's a very very minute possibility that it was issued to the early Task Force members, but there's no record of it.
If the gent can't substantiate its pedigree with some paperwork it would definitely not be on the up an up.
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Odd.
I'm certainly not doubting your source, but many people seem to be under the impression that the CZ 75 series had been used in that country, at least in some limited capacity. Though, as your source pointed out, without paperwork, my assumption is just that- an assumption. It just seems strange that so many people could be so wrong.
Now I'm wondering if by South Africa, it was meant as a region and not an actual country, though I doubt that.
A strange mystery that kind of adds to the mystique.
I'm also wondering as to what the origin of this RA number is. It looks stamped in- too neat to be etched in by hand. Private owners wouldn't do such a thing, I wouldn't think. The small amount of digits also seem to indicate this was a member of a very small group of pistols.
In any case, I appreciate the light you shed on it, even if I was proven wrong. At least I know a little bit more about this classic gun.
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Someone on another forum I hang out on mentioned the same thing about having an RA-number and an apparent South African history, so I'm really curious and would like to get to the bottom of it as well.
You might be onto something there - Southern Africa as a region (Mozambique, South Africa, Lesotho, Swaziland, Namibia, Angola, Zimbabwe, Botswana, etc) are considered Southern African states - it doesn't take a long stretch of the imagination for someone to mistake one for the other - and a legend is born ;)
He's currently checking the serial-number itself to see if it was ever registered to anyone in SA through the Central Firearms Registry in Pretoria - might take a while to get an answer, though. I'll post back here as soon as I hear anything from him.
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Odd.
I'm certainly not doubting your source, but many people seem to be under the impression that the CZ 75 series had been used in that country, at least in some limited capacity. Though, as your source pointed out, without paperwork, my assumption is just that- an assumption. It just seems strange that so many people could be so wrong.
Now I'm wondering if by South Africa, it was meant as a region and not an actual country, though I doubt that.
A strange mystery that kind of adds to the mystique.
I'm also wondering as to what the origin of this RA number is. It looks stamped in- too neat to be etched in by hand. Private owners wouldn't do such a thing, I wouldn't think. The small amount of digits also seem to indicate this was a member of a very small group of pistols.
In any case, I appreciate the light you shed on it, even if I was proven wrong. At least I know a little bit more about this classic gun.
Well, I think we can approach it this way.
Confirmed Facts:
1) SA never issued the CZ-75 to the national police on any real scale.
2) CZ-75s are relatively common in SA.
Facts that Cannot Be Easily Confirmed:
1) At least one U.S. importer claims to have had SA surplus service pistols. It may be more. I know of one in Minnesota. Walt may be thinking of another one, which would make at least two. I don't necessarily blame the importer(s) if this proves false. They get their weapons from middlemen too.
2) I recall a Reuter's article sent to me involving a police shoot-out with CZ-75s in Johannesburg. This could be explained any number of ways. My memory could be even worse than I thought. The policemen may have been off-duty or carrying personal weapons, for example. Hard to call when I can't locate the thread in the archives.
A Question for Our Friends in SA:
In South Africa, what would be the most likely explanation for what appears to be a surplus service pistol, but probably isn't?
Here in the U.S., just for example, some private security companies like Brinks and Wells Fargo engrave their own inventory number on some of their guns. Another viable explanation for the U.S. would have been that some small, obscure law enforcement agency (God knows we have enough of them) issued a small number, which is just too difficult to trace without assistance from CZ.
If I had to guess, I bet some private security company "issued" the pistols in question.
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I worked for an armed-response company for a few years before getting into executive-protection, and we were issued CZ75s (under the company's license) so that's quite possible; however, even security-companies are not allowed to make up their own serial-numbers and stamp them on the firearm.
If anything, it would have had to have been a WR-number issued by the SA Police to civilians firearms - so I'm still at a loss to explain the RA-number. Curiouser and curiouser...
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Someone on another forum I hang out on mentioned the same thing about having an RA-number and an apparent South African history, so I'm really curious and would like to get to the bottom of it as well.
You might be onto something there - Southern Africa as a region (Mozmbique, South Africa, Lesotho, Swaziland, Namibia, Angola, Zimbabwe, Botswana, etc) are considered Southern African states - it doesn't take a long stretch of the imagination for someone to mistake one for the other - and a legend is born ;)
I think we may have our winner.
I checked the above list against known Czech contracts from the 2001-2004 Annual Reports:
http://www.nisat.org/Export_Reports/Links%20to%20annual%20reports.htm (http://www.nisat.org/Export_Reports/Links%20to%20annual%20reports.htm)
(Note that the 2003 and 2004 reports are the only ones with hard data for our purposes.? Also, this includes all Czech manufacturers, not just CZ-UB.)?
CZ-UB appears to have had military or commercial (civilian) contracts with Angola, Namibia, Zimbabwe, and the Republic of South Africa itself.? SA appears to buy pistols and long guns for civilian sales and some light machine guns for their military.? The other three have purchased all sorts of stuff over the years.?
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It's amazing how one pistol can bring out so much history behind it.
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It's amazing how one pistol can bring out so much history behind it.
There is a lot of history, and finding it is always sort of a challenge. For one thing, the CSSR would never disclose to whom they were shipping CZ-UB products. During the Cold War, that information was largely classified. When the Czech Republic was formed, the Czech decided to become more "Western," with the goals of joining NATO and the EU. This coincided with a period in which CZ-UB products became available here, but outside firms imported and marketed the guns (i.e. Action Arms, Magnum Research, etc.). This tended to perpetuate a lot of misinformation.
Before CZ-USA became the official importer and distributor in 1996, the only real source of info on the guns were shooters from other countries. CZ has picked up the ball and helped out tremendously by publishing the CZ-75: Birth of a Legend book in English.
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Well, trudging forth, I'm in the process of cleaning up the '78 before my order from Duracoat comes in Monday. I've detail stripped the gun completely for the first time, and as soon as the frame was completely bare, I noticed a pecular sound I once dismissed as fiction. I tapped my fingernails to the frame, and a sound almost like thin glass being tapped rang out. I remember testing to see if my 2007 75B would make a similar sound when I had detail stripped that gun, but that eminated a no-nonsense metal sound, at least compared to what the '78 does.
It does go in line with the "legend" of the unusually hard metal that was said to be used in the early CZ75s, which would coincide with the reports of frame failures in the earliest examples. Harder isn't always better, and guns are no exeption. Much like samurai katanas, gun metal needs to have a balance between rigid durability and the ability to channel shock properly and absorb as little as possible (relying on the springs to do so instead). The higher pitched the note carbon steel makes when struck, the harder it is, and conversely, the less flexible it is. While stiffer metal would make for better accuracy, it would come at the cost of a shorter life, due to breakage.
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I have now put around a thousand rounds down the pipe of the old CZ, most of it your run of the mill 115 gr. WWB, with some nice 124 gr. Hornady TAP FPD thrown in for spice. As I grow as a shooter and I learn from my mistakes, I'm starting to realize the true accuracy of the old short rail, which is my primary gun currently. I am now consistantly hitting 3 inch groups at 25 feet using either a Chapman/Weaver stance, or getting slightly less accurate results with a one-handed "Shotokan Punch" stance, which is my favorite stance. While those numbers aren't the most impressive, I'm pretty content with the progress I've been making since taking up this hobby in March of this year.
Most amazing, though, is what happened during my last session. I experienced a FTE with the '78 (first extraction problem, incidentally) and wrestled with the lodged cartridge for a moment. I was on my last 5 bullets, and my range time was up. Hurredly, and just a bit pissed off, I focused my front sight on the target and squeezed off the last few rounds. Incredibly, I had managed a 1 1/2 group with a single stray 2 inches from the center. I remain confounded.
This gun is still far more accurate than I am capable of delivering currently, which gives me a good goal to reach for.
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In the next few months, once I'm more confident in my shooting prowess, I'll apply for my CCW, and no doubt attempt to pass with Ol' Irene. Either way, I plan on packing her in a Ross M43A vertical shoulder holster. I'm a really slender guy, so shoulder carry seems like the best option, since I'm already used to wearing opened button up shirts in the middle of summer anyway. Plus, there's that whole cool factor about shoulder holsters.
CCW is serious business, but you can feel like Sonny Crockett AND be ready for a real fight at the same time. You CAN strike a balance somewhere along the line.
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As Ol' Irene sits in her acetone bath, attempting to extract what little grease may be built up in that fairly new Parkerization she wears, I'm getting ready for the Duracoat stuff to arrive, and hopefully have the gun done by the middle of the week. I'm on vacation, and this is my little project, so I think this goal is very doable.
I went with Duracoat after extensive research because its the most friendly to my current situation. I live in an apartment and don't have access to big mills or other nice machines, but I am trying to do as much gunsmithing as I can by myself. I'm really trying to get into it professionally, so I'm putting my all into the guns I've got. If I can get good results from Duracoat on my first try, I'll be very pleased.
At first, I was going to send the gun away to get it redone professionally. I was originally going to have it hot blued and polished to get the factory look, but I reconsidered when I thought about how much care a real blue job takes in order to properly maintain. I discovered AWP Cogan during this time, and liked their line of CeraKote finishes. Unfortunately, I wasn't very impressed with their customer service via e-mail, so I reconsidered my options.
Duracoat's Gun Blue caught my eye and got my gears turning. Since they also offered a gloss clear coat, I immediately wondered if it'd be possible to get the looks of the classic hot blue finish, but have modern day durability. I decided to give it a shot when I read that it could be applied over Parkerized finishes, as long as all grease and oils were driven out beforehand (hence the acetone bath). I ordered not only the Gun Blue color, but Matte Black and Royal Blue in case I felt the need to tune the color. I also ordered Diamond Plate Silver for the trigger, hammer, and barrel, and both matte and gloss clear coats, as well as a basic airbrush kit.
The '78 has only a few spots of very minor pitting that I will attempt to fill in with Durafill. I'll have to be careful of the roll marks and what not. I've also come to realize that some of the lines of the short rail have softened, most likely due to a rushed sandblasting job to remove the original finish and Park it.
That's fine with me, though. This is my shooter. Ol' Irene ain't no safe queen! But my hope is that she'll look like one once I'm finished with my Duracoat adventure.
I'm also hoping to borrow a camera for some decent pictures of her during and after the process.
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Even after refinishing, I'm still a long ways to go until the vintage Model 75 is "complete". I have alot of parts I want to order.
I plan on getting all new springs through CZ Custom, firstly. The trigger is already as smooth as glass with a 15 lb hammer spring; a 13 lbs spring may just be heaven.
I've already ordered a set of fully checkered, red shellac finished Walnut grips from Marschal Grips. I can't wait to see how they'll look on the newly "blued" gun.
Direct from CZ-USA, I'll be after a CZ 85 Combat-style, drop free mag spring, which I'll hand bend into non-drop free form. The thicker metal used in this piece adds just a bit more security in my mind. I'll also get whatever spare parts I can, such as slide stops from the 75 Retro (if they have any around), a new spur hammer, an extra firing pin, and maybe a set of their cheap-o plastic ergonomic grips. I like having lots of grip options.
From Jim Miossi Gun Works, I'd say his Custom Hard Sear of the Pre-B variety is a no-brainer. The original sear is starting to wear out already, and its obvious that a harder sear really does make sense. A few more sets of grip screws won't hurt, either.
And finally, I've contacted EFK Fire Dragon, and I hope they'll get back to me soon. I've asked if they'll put together a special barrel that has the proper channels and replica markings. With their fancy, high tech laser-etched bores, could there be a better replacement if they're willing to replicate the vintage stock? Their "Frame Saver" Dual Spring system also intrigues me, as that may be just the thing I need to keep my frame and slide safe from its own super-stiff metal. If it can cut down recoil as much as they claim it will, then the new barrel and spring combo may put this short rail into diety status.
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Take measurements before you order any of these parts.
A new spur hammer, for example, can be problematic, as CZ had several different pre-B hammer. Different widths, with and without half-cock notches. My oldest CZ did not have the half-cock notch. Few of these are really interchangeable. The last spur hammer I found from a pre-B came form Jack First (and it was installed on an AT-84s after purchase.) Nobody else had one.
Parts for the oldest (internal spring) safety aren't available in the US -- maybe from a source in Europe.
I think you're going to have a lot of frustration getting parts -- which is why I gave up on pre-Bs some years ago. For the time and effort and money required, I'd rather get a newer B model (or 85 Combat) and have them improved with a trigger/action job.
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Luckily for me, all of my parts seem to be in excellent condition, so I'm not in a tremendous hurry to locate these parts just yet. I just want to have them on hand "just in case".
My hammer appears to be the oldest version, as it lacks the safety notch, and is very wide compared to the newest commander-style hammer. It is completely unmolested, lacking any sort of post-factory polishing job or resurfacing. I suppose this is just one of those things I'll have to keep an eye out for, but I'm not too concerned about needing a replacement. Afterall, you don't often hear about hammers breaking on CZs. Hell, the only thing I hear about in terms of breakage issues are slide stops and the occassional extractor (which may be a problem, since pre-B extractors are also hard to come by). If I can nab some Retro slide stops and get lucky with some pre-B extractors, and maybe an extra spur hammer and trigger, I'll be set for a very long time.
I also once heard that certain click pen springs may work as replacement safety springs. I don't know if that's true or not, but it sounds interesting. I may also try the local, old school hardware stores that carry random items like tiny springs. If it works, it works.
I think that, ideally, I should look for an early 80s pre-B that is on the verge of death and scavenge as many parts as I can from it. I may even attempt to retrofit newer parts to it at that point from the CZ75 Retro. That'd be a hell of an extensive project, but it'd make for a pretty interesting challenge.
I've got a new 75B, and I like it very much...But they don't quite fit my definition of what a great CZ should be. When I think "CZ", the image of a pre-B fills my head. Yes, they're expensive to maintain, and parts will never again be readily available, with some being pretty much extinct, but that makes them a true labor of love. There may be better guns out there, and its true that the current CZs are excellent models in and of themselves, but they just don't appeal to me as much as the originals. I know that when I've finally finished my '78 "project gun", I'll be able to take great pride in it, no matter what I do with it.
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I think if you take one of the old safeties apart, you'll find that a ball-point pin spring won't work. A flat coiled spring might -- and some gunsmiths have the knowhow and the equipment to make one that is compatible. And if you don't lock down that safety, when disassembling, wiht a pin or needle (through the hole in the safety) you'll find out all about finding lost springs and reassembling them. (What a pain.)
The only time you will likely have to replace the hammer is when the hammer hooks get damaged. (On one of the AT-84s I owned, the gun would lock up when cocked, and it was only after replacing both the sear [a Miossi hard sear] and the hammer, that it could be made to work, again. (My gunsmith spent a lot of time trying to tweak the hammer/sear interface, with no luck.)
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I've already been through the nightmare that is the pre-B safety assembly. Before that, I always wondered what that small hole in the safety switch was for...
Luckily, I've figured out my own technique for getting it back together, and I can now do so in about a minute. It involves putting the safety switch face down in a chunk of modelling clay and mooshing it in. Then, I insert the spring, followed by the arrowhead using a set of needlenose pliers, while at the same time forcing the spring into its hole with another set of pliers. As soon as the arrowhead is in place, I carefully exchange one set of pliers for my slave pin and viola- ready to go. The clay allows the slave pin to go far past the surface of the hole, thus avoiding a zing.
I used to work at Office Max, which had seemingly millions of different pens, many of which I tried out. You'd be suprised at how many different kinds of springs you'd find in these pens. Today, I've even begun tearing down some of the pens I happen to have around. I think I may have a winner, but with the gun disassembled and in an acetone bath, it'll have to wait. If it works, I'll let you know what brand of pen it is.
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Well, for all intesnive purposes, Ol' Irene is finished. Or should I say, RE-finished?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/1978CZ75RF4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/1978CZ75RF2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/1978CZ75RF3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/1978CZ75RF1.jpg)
I put her back together about two days ago after a week long project of DuraCoating. I made a custom color to try and get that polished blue look (using pictures of the famous Colt Royal Blue finishes of the 50s and 60s). I wound up using a formula of 8 parts Matte Black, 2 parts Gun Blue, and a half part of Diamond Silver Plate with one part of hardener. After that, I applied a 10:1 formula of Gloss Clear with a few drops of Royal Blue.
While the results I got don't necessarily look like authentic blue (nothing will), its many times better than the stock Gun Blue color DuraCoat offers, which is nothing but a fancy-named Navy Blue. The Matte Black and the little bit of silver help things along, but the blue-tinted glossy coat really bring out the full effects.
As a bonus, I found the very last remnants of the original blue finish hidden beneath the rear sight, and I used that to help match my color as well. It ended up being fairly close, but if I had to do it again, I'd probably reduce the amount of silver and add another part of black. As you can see in the photos above, the color is very blue and shiny in direct light, but can be almost black otherwise.
In a month, when the DuraCoat has finally fully dried, I'll wet sand with 1000 grit paper and buff smooth to get rid of a few flaws and scratches caused by reassembly. This will also help to subdue the "paint look".
Before the actual painting, though, I used DuraFill, which can be compared to bondo on cars. This did a fairly good job of filling in the light pitting found on the frame and slide, but if I were doing it all over again I'd repeat the process a few more times to completely get rid of them. One application and sanding session did totally eliminate the minor scratches, though, and for the most part the surface of the gun was glass smooth.
All in all, though, DuraCoat is very straight forward and pretty easy to work with, aside from the strong fumes. With the abilty to add varying levels of shine, along with a huge array of colors, its a pretty good option. I won't be able to say much on durability until a month from now and I can start my usual abusive habits again, but its evident that DuraCoat works by absorbing and displacing impact, almost like rubber. Thankfully, it doesn't feel like rubber, but it doesn't feel like hard metal or plating, either. Its very slick to the touch, especially when its glossy.
Most definately, you should avoid reassembling for as long as possible. I made the mistake of reassembling my gun after 24 hours after the final coat (as it says you can do so in the instructions), but that is far too early. The DuraCoat is still soft at this stage and prone to damage. You have to be careful of your tolerances, though, as it will build up with every coat. I made sure to lightly test fit as many pieces as I coat as soon as it wasn't tacky, and I sanded down what was needed.
Right now, the frame to slide fit is perfect, thanks to the DuraCoat, but I don't expect that to last. Same with barrel lock up. This wasn't my intention, but it is a pleasant side effect. However, my mags are very tight, despite using the thinnest coating possible on them and sanding the inside of the mag well. A drop free mag brake may help alleviate this problem.
I took the hammer and barrel down to the white and polished the breech face, crown, and the top of the hammer, while leaving the sides and back of the hammer with a brushed finish, along with the barrel tube. I also gave this same treatment to the trigger.
Grips are from a Swiss ITM, and are stand ins until I get my custom Marschal grips (walnut, full checker, red shellac finish).
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A very nice project and a very handsome result.
You may want to avoid working the action for another week or two -- as that finish will continue to cure and harden. Then the tightness won't be as likely to go away (from wear.)
My favorite pre-B was slightly newer than that, with the same smaller oval trigger guard which is, I think, the most attractive of all of the designs.
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Hi there.? This was an extremly interesting thread to follow.? I think you did yourself proud with not only the work you did but the detailed descriptions that went with it.
As regards the use of the CZ as an issue firearm here in SA, I have to confirm what has been said previousely about them not being issued to members of the SA police.? We do however have police agencies other than the SAPS who used and are still using CZ's extensively.? A good example is the Traffic Officers of the Cape Town Traffic Department.? I happen to be the head firearms instructor here and can confirm that we have had CZ's in daily use since the early 80's.? A very few are the short rail version but all have the safety notch on the hammer.? All still run just fine although some now look their age.
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MM,
Thanks for joining in and passing on that info. This is a truly international forum.
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Hi there. This was an extremly interesting thread to follow. I think you did yourself proud with not only the work you did but the detailed descriptions that went with it.
As regards the use of the CZ as an issue firearm here in SA, I have to confirm what has been said previousely about them not being issued to members of the SA police. We do however have police agencies other than the SAPS who used and are still using CZ's extensively. A good example is the Traffic Officers of the Cape Town Traffic Department. I happen to be the head firearms instructor here and can confirm that we have had CZ's in daily use since the early 80's. A very few are the short rail version but all have the safety notch on the hammer. All still run just fine although some now look their age.
Wow, so that may be the answer to the mysterious RA number, as well as the reports of "South African 'Police' CZs" that always pop up. If so, this is extremely useful information that could put to rest this issue! Thank you very much for the info!
...Any way any of us could possibly buy one of those old looking short rails? I could always use another. (Haha, I kid).
Unfortunately, I have bad news to report about my CZ, and that it is once again stripped and sitting in an acetone bath. I jumped the gun (pun intended) and reassembled her, and in doing so marred her up badly. I could have lived with that, but I wanted to try and repair it. Pretty soon, a small patch job turned into a large one, and eventually I said the hell with it and disassembled her all over again.
Having learned from this painful lesson, I'm going to be taking alot more time in refinishing her. I'll be wet sanding inbetween coats, and I'll be using a much darker color set up; matte black with gloss clear coats with gradually more royal blue tint in each seperate coat. If I'm right, this will yield a near perfect deep blue finish that will be as smooth as glass. I've found that wet sanding starting at 600 grit and working up to 1000 and then polishing it totally eliminates the "paint look". Providing I wait for the Duracoat to completely dry and settle between sanding sessions, it'll survive it and look breathtaking.
Since I'll be letting it air cure between coats, this will probably take the better part of two months. Its going to be a long, painful process. But, the things that are worth having the most are also the things worth fighting the hardest for.
This will also give me time to buy all of the high performance replacement parts and have them ready for her final assembly.
Wish me luck, ladies and gents. I'll need it.
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I think you can BAKE that finish, if you do it right, hanging it properly. Check with a nearby pawnshop for a good (cheap) toaster oven, and figure out how to do the "hanging" so that you don't mar the finish.
You talked about clearcoat -- is that duracoat, too? If not, you're asking for trouble. If so, you may be building up too much thickness, filling in detail, etc. Be careful.
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Yup, its a gloss Duracoat clear coat. I also have matte that I may coat the barrel, hammer, and trigger with.
You can indeed bake the finish. However, it STINKS. Bad. I did it with my mags to experiment, and after only 15 minutes at 110 degrees, I couldn't take it anymore. It lingered for days and I had a bad headache as a result. That pretty much leaves me with the old air dry method, which will take forever.
The sanding is going to be the real challenge. If it hasn't dried and cured enough when I go to sand it, the Duracoat will come off the corners and edges astonishingly fast, even with 600 grit.
One of the things I'm going to incorporate will be the use of sanding lines that will deliberately show beneath the gloss. In many quality bluing jobs you can literally see the gunsmith's hard work in the form of uniform and clean lines from sanding and polishing. This gives an optical illusion of a brushed look at certain angles, but glass smooth in others, all while having a very slick and even feel. Its also, from what I've observed, close to the original style factory finish this gun would have come with. That's what I'm going for now. It'll be alot more than just painting on a few different colors this time around.
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If I may quote an old African expresion.........'eish!' (meaning - 'oh bother' or 'oh sh*t' as appropriate :o and accompanied by a wry shaking of the head).? You are lining yourself up for quite some work there, please keep us posted as to the progress you make.?
The gun you bought definetly did not come from us here in Cape Town.? Our guns are marked somewhat differently and we also don't sell our guns off.
I have asked around as regards the RA number but so far have come up with a blank.? The only suggestion I have received is perhaps RA = Rhodesian Army, the guns vintage seems about right for that. ???
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The beauty of the toaster oven approach is that you can take it outside, under shelter, and let it stink away... Which is how some friends have done it with similar finishes. I think it does make for a much harder, more durable finish FASTER.
Be wary of too many coats. You will lose much of the definition of the details and markings -- it's inevitable -- and that's a sure sign of heavy-handed refinishing or over polishing.
The real secret to the super finish you want is superior sanding BEFORE you put the finish on. Sand and polish excessively (again, paying attention to details, markings, etc.) and then put as few coats as possible. You're trying to protect the metal, NOT create a substitute finish.
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Good advice, Walt.
I'll be putting on no more than 4 coats, perhaps 3 (the black base coat, and two layers of gloss with different blends of royal blue each, and perhaps a plain gloss if I still have the definition). The only problem with Duracoat, or at least my experience with it so far, is that it is subject to the same pratfalls as real paint. Everything affects your spray, and in this case, I want a super smooth, high gloss finish that lacks that graininess usually associated with spray ons.
I may either tough it out her ein the apartment and bake it in the oven, or I may go over my parents house with an old toaster oven and bake it outside. That might be too much of a hassle, though.
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Hey, CM Rich - How is your baby doin'? You get any further with getting her all 'coated up'?
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Well, she's been completely stripped down, and all of her pits have been refilled with Durafill. This time around, I've taken far more care in protecting rollmarks and misc. proofmarks, and everything has been sanded very smooth.
I stripped off the week-old Duracoat with Jasco, which worked really well along with an acetone bath and some time with a wire brush. Some of that Duracoat clung on very tenaciously. Also of interest is a bit of a test I had going with a piece of metal I had sprayed with Duracoat before doing the gun, and I've been doing my own abuse tests with it. Its about 3 weeks old now, and it wet sands with 1200 grit paper really well, giving me that mirror finish I was after. Its also really tough stuff, as it was claimed to be. I was hitting the part with a hammer, and the Duracoat resisted chipping away really well, and bent with the metal. It took a few mars here and there, but I was pretty impressed. The only thing that seemed to cause it damage was a cut from a razor blade, and even then the edges never peeled away. Keep in mind this was air-cure, and not oven cure, which as Walt said gives you a much tougher result.
Since I'm ordering new parts (springs, modern extractor, and just about anything I can replace with modern new stock), I can't really do much else until it all gets here. Once its all here, which will probably be a week from now, I'll finish up the painting, and hopefully have it all oven cured by the end of the month.
I've also decided to try out Springco's recoil system, since I'm really concious about protecting the frame. If EFK does roll out a Pre-B barrel (with the proper channels), I'll grab one of those too.
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Well, she's done. For now, at least.
After all of that pit filling, I had a change of heart. I decided not to go the semi-tactical route with the Duracoat afterall. Its not that Duracoat is a bad product, but rather I realized that such a classic gun should remain classic, right down to the finish. So, I decided to forego the Duracoat for Brownell's Oxpho Blue.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/CZBlue145.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/CZBlue45.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/CZBlue75.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/cutmanexe/CZBlue125.jpg)
While I believe I made an error in over sanding (all the way up to 2000 grit, baby!), which prohibited the cold blue from penetrating as deeply as it could, I wound up with the look of an old, weathered blue job that was still extremely glossy. It definately suits this gun well.
Down the line, I think I'll have it hot blued and finally call it a day, but for now, the Oxpho Blue, with its ease of application and blissful cheapness, will suit my needs well.
Don't be completely fooled by the pictures, either. The oil smudged around, and that's where you see spots and streaks. The actual finish is suprisingly even for a cold blue. Oxpho Blue is awesome.
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Oxpho Blue is a very good finish. You can continue to touch it up, coat it with that finish, over the coming weeks, and it will slowly continue to darken.
I did as you did with an older pre-B, and it ended up looking almost like an old S&W (revolver) blue, which is very dark, indeed.
Just apply the finish with a clean cloth pad, wearing latex gloves, and it will continue to improve.
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That is one fine looking cZ. ;)
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Why, thank you tekarra!
And Walt, you've hit the nail on the head. I just reapplied a quick coat of Oxpho, and wow what a difference. It is now easily twice as dark as it was before and is really evening out. I think I'll do this nightly for the next week and see what I come up with.
How's your finish holding up, Walt? I'm very interested in seeing how this stuff will last in the long haul.
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Oh, BEAUTY!!!
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How's your finish holding up, Walt? I'm very interested in seeing how this stuff will last in the long haul.
My experience with Oxpho Blue is that the gun has to be touched up periodically on the front and back strap, but pretty nice, otherwise. And more coats may make that less necessary.
The particular gun in question was sold a few years ago to someone who was a forum member at the time (a GI, overseas who had me send it to him once he returned home). Seems like I got ripped off for a mag on that particular transaction. (I sent a replacment for one he said wasn't good, but he never returned the "bad" one.) He hasn't been around for a while.
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Sorry to hear about the bad transaction, Walt. Hope one bad one didn't leave a sour taste in your mouth.
But, it's good to hear Oxpho is a relatively good finish, considering what it is. I don't mind some touch up work every now and then, since its really easy and cheap with this stuff to do so. Hard not to recommend it to someone else after my experience with it thus far.
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Nah. I've sold a number of guns to forum members since then... Stuff happens.
My general experience with members has been that they are honorable people and often generous.
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Congratulations! I've been wanting a short rails for years. Yours looks fantastic after the refinish.
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Another RA# owner signing in. Same story of lore - supposedly came in from South Africa as some kind of police or military pistol.
(http://i37.tinypic.com/ms156v.jpg)
This gun came into the US in such a sad state: When I first saw it, it was in a store and was such miserable junker I didn't give it a second look. No finish, lots of pitting, bent parts, just worthless crap. Should have been melted down and thrown away. 6 months later a buddy called, said they had fixed them up so he bought one. Whatever!
So I meet up with my friend - and he pulls out this brand spanking new looking short rail CZ-75. No pits, smooth straight surfaces, solid gun fit, gleaming finish, crisp sharp looking lettering. It was the same gun! Impressive. Told my friend, if he ever needed a few bucks I'll pay him whatever he paid for it. He paid I think $400.
Some time later - friend got bored with it, knew I loved it, and as a favor, sold it to me.
Since then, I've replaced the grips. it had the original spec looking ones, which were so scratched to Hell they couldn't be saved. So I threw them in a drawer and put on some CZ rubber grips (can't recommend those high enough - they really really help the otherwise slippery CZ grip hold)
I also replaced the hammer, the spur just bit me too much. I put nail polish on the sights - bright pink dot on the front, and two silver dots on the back - highly recommend that color spectrum.
The only part that bugs me is it has a replacement angular looking slide stop. Works, just don't like the look. The single action trigger has some creep. Not bad, but I'd like it to be a little crisper. I'm thinking of ordering a new sear, and seeing what a little careful emory filling can do. The double action pull is a dream.
I use the heck out of it - and it's been abused well before me. Holding up very well - original slide, frame, and barrel still. The FOBUS holster I use in IDPA matches is starting to rub off some of the blue in a spot, which is annoying. I may take it back to those magicians in South East Texas if it gets bad, for a touchup.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=255049 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=255049)