The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: reflex on April 29, 2009, 08:35:34 PM
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...but I'm not sure I will consider another CZ in the future. Why? Because I can't seem to get an answer to a simple question like how to move the rear sight without messing it up. The manual is not very clear in it's explanation:
"Sight Adjustment
The pistol sights were sighted in at the manufacturing plant at distance of 25 m so the mean point of impact approximately conforms to the point of aim. (75+ feet? and "approximately"?)
Windage correction can be carried out by the drifting of the rear sight in the dovetail and then secured in it's position by an indentation."
The rear sight is staked. So it looks like I'm supposed to bang on it until I disrupt said staking and attempt to re-stake the sight. Great way to fine tune point of impact. Too bad I didn't notice this prior to purchasing (who would guess such a rudimentary method would be imployed) or I would have purchased something else. What would it have cost to drill, tap and screw in an allen screw?
I took it to the range this past Sunday and all my shooting friends were very interested...until I realized the gun put bullets where it felt like rather than where I aimed. Then the interest turned to "huh?
So I came here to this forum which I had joined the day before to ask the experts. The CZ guys. The P-07 owners that had had their guns awhile. Surely this has been addressed. Nothing. So I ask the question and what I get for an answer is that it's probably (or might be) me and I should let an experienced shooter try it. Sandbags and exact aim at 10 yrds don't make it hard to hit what you point the gun at. Unless the gun has other ideas.
So I contact CZ and get no response. Simple question, politely asked. Should have been asked before. But no answer.
So I will bang away on the rear sight, try and get it to coincide with point of aim and hope for the best. Since this was intended to be my new CCW I don't want to have to remember to aim somewhere else if I should have to point it at an assailant.
Rant over....but decision pretty much made...
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Used a brass punch and hammer on the rear sight and it moved fairly easily...which has me a little concerned that it will stay where I want it.
So if anyone wants to know how to do it, just ask. I'll answer the question.
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Guess I was too late....Twelve minutes before your last post you was ready to give it up... I would have taken that POS off your hands.
QUOTE: ...but I'm not sure I will consider another CZ in the future.
That is quite laughable..
::)
Glad you got the sights rolling... ;D
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Sorry to hear you don't like your P-07. Mine is a tack driver right out of the box. I only wish I had tritium sights on it but, I hear they are soon becoming available. Anyway, I hope it works out for you. Best Regards, Dusty
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I do like it. I just don't think much of the rudimentary rear sight and lack of specific info on how to adjust it. Elevation seemed to be pretty much spot on at 10 yrds, it was windage that was way off. Now that I know I can drift it easily, I can get it to shot point of aim. I really don't want to change sights, but I'm not sure I won't some day. I like tinkering with my guns and will drill and tap the stock rear and add an allen screw to get it locked down. It's too loose as is to hold zero through extended use. And restaking each time I might want to adjust is like nailing your front door shut every time to leave the house.
Next is some trigger work. I'm not all that concerned with DA, but will remove about 90% of the take-up in SA and the slight creep. It breaks pretty cleanly and is light enough for defensive use. I didn't buy it to be a range/target gun.
Did the basic breakdown a few mins ago and cleaned the barrel, slide and frame. Well designed from a cursory examination. I need to figure out the ins and outs of the trigger assembly so I can begin work on that.
Maybe if I get how CZ designs down in my head and tweak the crap out of this little gun, I actually will buy another...
Who knows....I rant and rave all the time...maybe I can turn the rant into a rave. I will say this, it never failed to do it's thing last Sunday, even if I did wonder where the bullets were impacting during the first 5 shots or so.
;)
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Next is some trigger work. I'm not all that concerned with DA, but will remove about 90% of the take-up in SA and the slight creep. It breaks pretty cleanly and is light enough for defensive use. I didn't buy it to be a range/target gun.
If you know of a way to drop the SA take-up on an Omega-series trigger by 90%, there's a good bunch of us who will be very curious to find out how (short of pinning the lifter).
Also...
Sandbags and exact aim at 10 yrds don't make it hard to hit what you point the gun at.
Yes, but that does not in any way rule out the shooter as a potential cause. The only way to truly test to see if it is the sights is to stick it in a good quality machine rest (like a Ransom). Then there would be no dispute whatsoever.
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reflex sorry you had so many problems with your P-07 Duty. I hope all is well now. You expressed an interest in viewing the internal components of your P-07 and I thought this post might help.
http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=22429.0 (http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=22429.0)
Good shooting.
Keep us informed about any modifications you feel helpful with your rear site.
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I just read Walkure's response about 15 mins ago and found a parts list/diagram on the Czech web site. I can see how the Omega trigger mechanism works, or at least what parts are involved in the SA trigger as I view my P-07 with the slide off. I assume Walkure was talking about the "firing pin block lever" when he referred to the "lifter", though I may be wrong.
In examining how the SA trigger works, squeezing the trigger moves the trigger bar towards the rear of the gun, with approx .175 in (4.45mm) of travel before the firing pin block lever begins to cam up from the rear insert, on which it rests. Not being able to actually see inside the frame I'm not sure what other contact the trigger bar may have with anything other than the firing pin block lever, but by looking at the diagram there appears to be nothing else there. So that's .175 inches of travel that's unnecessary before the firing pin block lever cams up from the rear insert, which when it cams up far enough, releases the hammer to hit the firing pin.
I took a business card and folded it twice and cut it so it was small enough to lay on top of the area on the rear insert where the firing pin block lever rests. This lessens the amount of travel it needs to make before releasing the hammer, and would be easy to build up to the proper added height to reduce the travel. The trigger does not change position when this is done, the firing pin block lever is just already moved part way through the distance it needs to travel to release hammer. Length of trigger travel is not changed by doing this, so to solve that I would build up the rear of the trigger bar so that it is making contact with the firing pin block lever in it's new partially cammed position. That would require very little movement of the trigger to complete rotation of the block, releasing hammer. This would reduce takeup of the trigger to move the firing pin block and reduce movement of firing pin block lever to release hammer. All this would be relatively easy to do and could be done inexpensively and permanently. And you could have an "on the edge" or "breathe on me and I go off" trigger. Control of how much or how little you would have would be done when you build up each of these two surfaces.
This is a simple mechanism in reality. The only problem with this approach is DA will no longer work. I need to spend more time examining the Omega mechanism and figure out a way you can get the "on the edge" SA and DA as well. But that actually may not be possible. I might give up DA for a great SA. All my other pistols are 1911's, so it ain't like it's something I've felt I needed in the past.
Hope this makes sense. Take your P-07 apart and while holding the hammer back, slowly pull the trigger. You'll see what's going on and whether my ideas make sense to you or not.
Hey, I could be full of it...
;)
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As an addendum, the de-cocking mechanism will not work if you make these mods. Not sure about the thumb safety yet. I have to switch them out to check that.
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Additional thoughts...you can reduce travel to the point where the firing pin block lever begins to rise off the rear insert by building up the rear of the trigger bar only. That should not effect DA or de-cock at all and not move the position of the trigger as it is in a stock gun.
I bet with some experimentation I could get at or close to my 90% travel reduction just by doing that.
I'd probably be satisfied with that...
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This is the Omega FPB lifter and sear configuration at rest, with the trigger bar engagement surface in green and the lifter/sear engagement surface in red.
(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/7508/omegamech1.jpg)
Now, as you can see, the lifter must be moved to begin engaging the sear at all. Here is the point at which the lifter actually begins engaging the sear.
(http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/9382/omegamech2.jpg)
So, one solution for removing some of the take-up is to lock the lifter in this position (such as pinning it in place against the sear). However, this cannot be safely done without further modification because having the lifter in its fully engaged position will prevent proper slide function. Thus we have this possible solution, which has previously been suggested:
(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/33/omegamech3.jpg)
Here, the lifter would be pinned to the sear (or otherwise kept in this position at rest), the actual lifter portion removed, and the FPB itself removed from the slide. The downsides to this modification are 1) that you must permanently modify the lifter (and sear, if the lifter is pinned to it) in a fairly radical way and 2) you must remove the FPB altogether. The first part is even more of an issue when you take into account the fact that we do not yet have readily available factory replacement parts for the Omega mechanism. So if you screw anything up, you are absolutely and completely SOL until spare lifters and/or sears are available.
Since the lifter movement that occurs before sear engagement accounts for roughly 40% of the total take-up in SA, it would be impossible to remove 90% of the take-up without pinning or otherwise locking the lifter in a pre-engaged state while at rest, which I had already mentioned in my original post.
Removing the true take-up (the travel before engaging the lifter) could be accomplished in three ways (or a combination thereof) - adding material to the end of the trigger bar, adding material to the trigger bar engagement surface of the lifter, or modifying the connector to position the trigger bar further back upon reset in SA.
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using a drift and/or staking is a common practice on FS guns. some mfg or companies offer sight adjustment tools too. they are usually spendy tho. some people will use some fine filings and mix it w/loctite to keep the sight in place. also, some dovetails are snug/tight enough that all you have to do is to drift the sights w/o anything else.
fyi, your POI can change with various ammo too. just so you know and dont blame the gun the next time.
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Thanks for the excellent info Walkure and bang bang. Since the rear sight is a plastic of some sort, I'm going to drill and tap it tonight and add an allen screw for securing it after adjustment.
As for the trigger, I learned alot about that mechanism from your drawings and explanation, Walkure. I think I'll work on just eliminating the travel between trigger bar and lifter.
90% reduction of excess takeup may be impossible, now that I think I understand how this works better, but something should be better than nothing.
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The rear sight is actually made of hard rubber/soft plastic. I was almost able to drill it by turning the drill bit with my fingers. I let the allen screw tap it. Since I moved the sight already, I was able to push it out of the dovetail with my thumb, and back in again the same way.