The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ SP-01 and variants => Topic started by: hk_mtbr on June 03, 2009, 04:27:55 PM
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OK I read through the SP01 break in sticky...since this is from the custom shop I wouldn't expect these to be the issue with this gun.
I've had my Shadow for a couple of months and it has around 600-700 rounds through it...I'm not a big round counter.
Other than a little range time, I've mostly used this gun for 3 matches. It ran like a top until a recent local club match. Just the day prior I did the KY State Multi-gun championship with it - flawless - even makes me look good. This was all until a local match on the following day...of course this is where all my local buddies see it for the first time - accckkk!
I started having the "double feed". When I dropped the mag and racked/swapped mags it ran. I had this issue on 4 of 5 courses of fire. I cleaned all my mags while there and even tore the gun down and made sure it was fairly clean...bore snake and hosed down internals with RemOil....all I had with me at the match.
This didn't seem to be limited to just one mag.
The ammo was the same factory UMC which hasn't been an issue either.
It seems odd that one day it ran fine - and the next it would hardly run.
As it stands I won't be shooting production this weekend at the IN Sectional...this is my only "production" rig.
Should I buy new mags or mag springs and hope for the best? I've never had mecgar mags dump on me like this so I'm not sure this is the issue.
I REALLY hate not being able to trust my guns...
Thoughts?!
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Since the Shadow is so new and you bought it from the custom shop, why not give Mike at CZ a call. Somehow I find it hard to believe that all your mags would have the same malfunction. The ammo as you said is the same you've been using all along.
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That is a little strange ...... I've never encountered others having that same problem.... ?? What was the brand of ammo used ?
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so two live rounds are feeding?? or is it the spent case with the new round jammed underneath??
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eerw - You bring up a good point but I'm not sure which. The only time this happened was on the timer so I was rather franticly clearing the situation.
I'm planning on taking it to the range tonight - first chance I've had since the issue. So I'll be able to observe the real issue hopefully.
I have been noticing the left side grip doesn't want to stay tight...is there any causal relationship? I have not used any loctite on it yet...
The ammo is UMC bulk pack.
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have not seen any relationship to loose grips and any malfunction.
when you are checking for the malfunction.
if double feeding two live rounds..not sure how that would happen..can see it happening when trying to clear a jam.
if its jamming a live round out of the mag into an empty case.
couple of things to check
crud behind extractor..it can get dirty under it, which will affect the tension it can hold on the empty case.
could be bouncing the case off the ejection port and back into the gun. ( for this would need to recut the ejector tip )
also possible..weak extractor spring.
anyway..will wait to hear back what is going on.
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I'm looking forward to the results of your trip to the range today. eerw makes an excellent point about crud behind extractor. After all this entire episode happened suddenly after the SP-01 had been working fine for weeks.
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Crud certainly does build up behind the extractor claw.
I clean it out after 1500 rounds or so with a used dentist's pick,
available free from most dental offices. Good chance to clean out the recess in the face of the slide, i.e. the full interface between the breech, the cartridge and the 'bolt'.
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If ya bring it out this weekend and get on Hunters squad, USPSA Lady will video its performance. Luck on figuring it out!
Addict
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OK I'm back from the range.
First of all. This thing still amazes me at how precise it shoots. I've never been much of a one ragged hole shooter...but this gun is...and I'm still geeked on how it fits me. (I'm afraid I need this same gun in 40 now)
My first assessment was ALL wrong. It is officially failing to feed. The rounds are getting hung up half way into the chamber.
This happened to all 4 mags with no pattern. If it fed - it shot...first round off the mag or anywhere in the stack.
I did not clean it or otherwise since the match.
Same ammo Rem UMC 115 gr FMJ.
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Check the tension on the extractor..too much can cause it to hang up.
check for any burrs at the firing pin hole.
check for any burrs at the bottom of the breechface.
you could check the barrel ramp..but I am suspecting its fine.
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I know you had been using UMC without problems, but before you do anything else I would try another factory ammo. Something other than Remington. If it ends up being the ammo, you'll save yourself a LOT of grief and time! I quit using Remington target rounds because they aren't consistent from batch to batch. I own at least three pistols that have been 100% flawless with a wide variety of ammo - but will occasionally choke on Remington. That's why I quit using it. Just my personal experience, YMMV.
Whatever the cause - good luck! I hope you get it sorted out soon. I know it must be very frustrating.
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I'm sure that you will figure out what the problem is. It's going to turn out to be something simple. You've already found out it's a failure to feed. Good luck and update us as to what you find out.
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Any pics or sticky available on how to recut the ejector tip?
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As a matter of fact refer to the link below for a sticky that talks about the subject you asked about and also discusses other problems with the SP-01 during break-in.
http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=22862.0 (http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=22862.0)
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I had the exact same thing happen with my P-06, but with magtech ammo and with umc. cleaned and lightly polished the breech face, also cleaned around the extractor seemed to help. Kinda feel like it might be the extractor. Good luck!
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hk_mbtr - Let me second what others have already mentioned...remove and clean the extractor and extractor channel every 1000 rounds or so (you can try going longer if you don't have any problems). Also, make sure the rest of the pistol is clean and well-lubed (especially the rails). When my Shadow (10 lb recoil spring, 128 PF 147 gr FMJ loads) gets too dirty (300 rounds or so), I can feel the slide cycle more slowly (it starts to feel "chunky" instead of snappy). With hotter ammo or a stiffer recoil spring, it may not be apparent. If you are running with a similar set-up (light recoil spring and soft ammo), you may run into feeding issues if your pistol is not clean and well-lubed.
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Thanks for the posts...I didn't get a chance last night to check over all the suggested points on the shadow.
I plan to get to it this weekend and hopefully get to the bottom of it.
I can see where the ammo could be at fault - this is basically the crappiest stuff available - but it WAS available. I have the dies for 9mm but haven't got that press setup yet. I've been learning to load on 45 first.
How will I know if the tension is right on the extractor?
Any problems putting a dab of loctite on the grip screw? Now it won't stay tight for more than a couple mags or so.
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actually I like the idea of trying a different ammo.
possible the case head of the UMC brass is slightly bigger than others.
anyway..good luck..I think we all want to see this fixed.
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+1 on what Jay1958 said.
Try some hotter ammo for awhile. The S&B is good stuff if you can find it.
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A small drop of the purple (Low Strength) Loctite will hold your grip screws and still be removable when you want.
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I'm going to go with the "change ammo" and "clean the thing" answers...
I give it a really good cleaning. There was a bunch of gunk behind the extractor that I thought I got...but was wrong.
Also I made sure to use plenty of slide glide...the "reversed" rails made me think a bit - but went with grease the shiny parts theory.
I have enough Speer ammo (which I know runs) to get me through a club match on Sunday so we'll see. This isn't the best plan but have no other chance between now and then :-\ If all else fails Sunday will get me more practice on my clearing drills.
Will let you guys know...thanks!
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My non-Shadow SP-01 Tactical did about the same thing. I ran 500 rounds through it with no problems. Then all of a sudden I was in my USPSA matches and it would dump a live round in the chamber and the only way to clear it was to dump the mag and cycle the slide. It did that to me for weeks before I realized I started having all of the failures when I ran out of the Geco 124gr. rounds I was shooting and switched over to 115gr. WWB rounds. Someone told my the Geco rounds were decently hot rounds whereas the WWB's aren't. I switched out the 18lb. recoil spring down to a 16 and my problems went away. I also noticed that when I was unloading my mags, the rounds weren't popping up smoothly. After cleaning my mags that problem went away too. I got into the habit of cleaning my mags the night before a shoot. I recently used my SP-01 in my CCW shoot in the snow and it ran great. I haven't had any issues now in quite some time.
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Good luck at your club match on Sunday. I hope you solved your problem. Let us know how things go.
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UPDATE: I went to local USPSA match with an old buddy. I've been trying to get him to try it for a while so I couldn't say my gun was funky when he said he wanted to go to this match.
At match...first course of fire - first mag...jam! I think Addict was yelling JAM somewhere behind me. I clear it and keep on going through the course with no more hiccups, but I was bummed. When I got done and started re-loading mags I noticed, what I thought was a fresh box of Speer - was actually a mixed box of bench ammo (you know the extra rounds that tend to collect on the bench)...and...some UMC mixed in. I sorted all those out and made sure that I was loading only speer the rest of the match and NO failures of any kind.
I'm going to call this one solved as ammo related.
And, to that end, I'll be buying the loading supplies this week for 9mm. Rob told me what Angus' load was when I bought the shadow but I forgot exactly..VV320 and 124 JHP were the main items...this is good 'cause I load vv320 for 45 already.
Thanks to all again...match results not in yet by the way...
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Glad things cleared up HK_mtbr! I was filming and Mr. Spanks was letting you know about the malf. on the first stage. That recipe Angus uses was moved from the Ask Angus forum to CZF Ammunition as I recall.... Should be a few pages deep. What is your 320 load in .45? The stuff I have been using is dirty as all get out. USPSA Lady should have your video chopped together and posted on the MRPC forum in the Practical Pistol area in the next day or two. Hope "M" had a good time and comes back for more fun!!!
Addict
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Addict - 4.9 VV320 seems to be right for my wilson...YMMV
Today I ordered some speer brass and some 124 CMJ's...I couldn't find JHP's but figured this will do fine. I'm not totally certain about the speer brass but figured since I found it once fired I'd buy a 1000...I figure it is more likely just inconsistent UMC loads. I already have a few # of VV320 so I can hit the ground running.
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hk_mtbr,
Nice to see you've got things under control. Now that you narrowed your problem down to the ammo you can stay away from the faulty stuff. Good shooting.