The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: kincade on December 16, 2009, 05:03:06 AM
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I know the VZ-58 has no relation to an ak47, but I'm really itching to get a 7.62x39 ak. The accuracy I've recently learned on the ak47 suffers from the action of the heavy bolt assembly. How does the VZ-58's accuracy fair with the 7.62x39? It is striker fired, right?
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vz-58 is in the same caliber, 7.62x39mm, with the exception of the not-quite-here vz-58 in .223. My vz-58 is more accurate that the AKM semi auto clones I have owned in the past, with one AK clone being bad enough it wouldn't get on paper at 100 yards.
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+2 on the Accuracy of the VZ-58. The VZ-58 is far more accurate than even a Galil or Valmet. No, it's not as accurate as an AR platform. But, remember it's a battle rifle. It's not a 500yd gun. It's 7.62x39 not 7.62x51 don't expect 308 performance. The outdoor range that I shoot at will not allow AKs on the 100yd range. This is a very large site. 15 - 100yd stalls, 40 - 50yd stalls and 30 - 25yd stalls ( this is a $5.6M facility ). The reason for no AKs on the 100yd is that there are overhead baffles and they don't like repairing baffles. Furthermore, other shooters don't like "mystery holes" in their targets anytime there's an AK next to them. The VZ58 is indeed a Striker fired action. If you like simplicity you'll love the VZ58 and unlike AKs, which never heard of Eli Whitney and interchangeable parts, the VZ58s are manufactured precisely and can use parts from other VZ58s. Remember, all firearms require proper checking and fitting. Probably, the down side to a VZ58 is the low number of aftermarket parts and goodies. I shoot my VZ58 a lot. Low ammo prices and due to the steel cases I don't need to reload. It's the gun I take out when I want something bigger than a 22lr and don't want to bother with reloading.
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Don't forget to czech out Czechpoint's webpage for accessories and parts!
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My vz.58 was significantly more accurate than my golani/galil. It is also more accurate than my buddies saiga 7.52x39 and .223.
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this past weekend decided to do a comparo on accuracy between my norinco mak90 and my vz58, got to only shoot 25yards then it rained out. hopefullynext weekend to try 50 and 100 yards.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/200.jpg)
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Alright, lots of great info and pics. I can show these pics to a good friend who's weighing out the ak as well. Seen this video and started to reconsider the 7.62 ak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&feature=related) I like CZ products, and I've seen the VZ 58 off and on for sale. One more question, I've read that the VZ
has less stock parts overall, so is it just as durable as the ak47 or even close?
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Yeah, but the AK shooter was jerking that trigger, which is hardly conducive to accurate shooting. And, on top of that, the show failed to point out it is easier to adjust for distance with the AK than the AR's A1 sights.
That said, of course nobody would argue that the AK was more accurate than the AR. It most certainly is not. However, the piece had some bias in its demonstration that could have affected the on-paper accuracy (not to mention the AR slow motion video does not show the muzzle's motion, which also has some flip, which exaggerates the AK and minimizes the AR). It would have been better to have the same guy use both rifles, but that could bias towards what he is accustomed shooting. In any case, seeing a guy jerk a trigger like that doesn't make me think he is all that good with an AK.
I also have a problem with the cants of wood, the 4x4's connected together. They called that dense pine, but that is entirely false. Those are cores of the pine, which contains the only portion of juvenile wood in the tree. The juvenile wood is less dense with less structural strength than any other portion of the tree. The center of those cants are not all that dense. This doesn't matter in construction which is why these are core-cut in the first place. Like the human bone, having a soft center in a 4x4 does not make it weak, the less dense center is just fine. You'd rather have the juvenile wood in the center than on an edge. The edges are denser, of course, but that ain't 8 inches of dense pine, it ain't even 8 inches. 4x4's are actually 3 1/2 inches wide, not 4 inches wide. Put them together and you get, yep, 7 inches not 8 inches.
Davis
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You're right , they did leave the muzzel out in the slow replay, you can see the 'wobbling" in the M16 ??? Another good point is that they're firing two entirely different calibers. The Ak47 would probably have more accurate shots in a 223.
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The AKs have 2 design issues. Obviuosly the first is the stamped receiver. True that the really early Ishmash, Galils, Valmet and some Chinese they used a milled receiver, however, do to the open top of the receiver and the Mag. Well cut the whole receiver "twists" when the weapon cycles. Hey, forget the receiver matter, how about the barrel resonance issue! Do to the OAL of the barrel in rapid fire or FA the barrel produces harmonic oscillations causing the barrel to "whip" up and down. Actually it gyrates like the figure 8. There was a considerabl body of research done by the UK in the 1950s and the conclusion was; even with the stamped receiver, if the design had used a solid receiver top and had kept the barrel afixed to the top of the receiver rather than the bottom (gas piston on bottom) then this gyration would have been reduce/eliminated. The UK study was allegedly going to be included in the Library of Congress. I don't know if that ever occurred.
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There are a couple of things here, though. First, the front trunion, into which the barrel is pinned, is not stamped. Indeed, the stamped portion of the rifle is merely a u shape that only serves to give a sliding surface for the bolt carrier. Second, all of this happens, by the way, after the bullet has already left the bore. In other words, any flexing, bending, or twisting occurs at a point when no affect can be transferred to the bullet. That is, of course, in slow shooting. At full auto, the successive bullets endure all sorts of additional forces from warping etc. Full auto is never accurate. The only place where this would be an issue would be in a 3-round burst scenario (which is not addressed in the video and, besides, is not generally an AK feature). But in single fire mode, the bolt moves only after the bullet is on its way to the target and cannot be affected by the heavy bolt, heavy gas piston, or stamped receiver.
Davis
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My mental computer is slowly trying to process and absorb the last two responses... need coffee!
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I agree - coffee break!
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Very, very simple, gang.
My 58 is a hell of a lot more accurate than I am.
In my utterly prejudiced opinion, from having had firearms kicking around the house
For 55 years, the 58 kicks the snot out of the AK in terms of quality and shootability.
Fighting words here, I know.........but the AR "platform" ain't the lead dog either.
The word platform always cracks me up.
So............is it a Democratic AR or a Republican AR or Libertarian AR............?
Nevermind.
I just plain like the gun, and it likes me.
So there you go.
Pick your poison.
salskov
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Hear, hear! Ditto, if I may, I don't have any real affection for the AR "platform" either.
Wouldn't mind an FAL, but that's another story... ;D
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Guess I'll just have to wait to get my hands on one. Centerfire inc. had a VZ-58 for $600+, don't remember exact price. My curiosity is nagging me, I want test fire all of them, including an AR15. So many choices, so little $$
found it http://www.myvirtualpaper.com/doc/Centerfire-Systems-Inc/centerfire_dec/2009112401/ 7th page.
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I certainly prefer the VZ58 over the AK any day (but not over my PSL). I have a DSA AR15 but it is close to being sold because it does not provide buoyancy to my aquatic transportation.
Davis
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kincade, if I were you I'd look at Czechpoint as I believe the one listed for $599 at Centerfire is a Century made copy. Some of the Century's work fine, but in my horrible experiance I will never again buy a rifle they have "built". Click the picture at the top of this page as see the real deal.
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Thanks for the heads up, armoredman and saving me from a future headache.
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Omg! Just seen the video for the vz.61 Scorpion! Ok now im seriously drooling. So the Scorpion shoots 9mm only? I'd have to get one silenced ready with the cool folding stock. Wow!! I'd give up my P-06 for one, as ugly as they look, kinda of like a bulldog or some pug nose, you know... so ugly they're cute.
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No, Skorpion is in 32.ACP only, a .380 version is in the works.
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I would say the accuracy between my VZ- 58 and my Yugoslavian under folder are similar.
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Jeez... 32? Still would be fun to shoot. Can't wait to see the VZ-58 video. If I'm patient enough I'll get the VZ-58, but if I impulsively buy... an ak47. I can hear the wise words of a friend ringing in my ears, "Get what you really want the 1st time or you'll be disappointed and will probably trade and spend extra $$ toget it later"
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Very true, I have had 3 AKs over the years, I have a vz-58... :)
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armoredman, with your past experience would you say that the VZ58 design is more simple, (less parts overall) and your take on function reliability compared to your previous history with the ak's? Your last reply simply says VZ-58 but i want to throw a reasonable monkey wrench in my friends opinion on the reliability of an Ak vs VZ 58.
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Kincade -
This is one of my alltime favorites for answering this sort of question:
http://50ae.net/VZ-vs-AK/ (http://50ae.net/VZ-vs-AK/)
salskov
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The only AK I regret selling was a Hungarian underfolder with wooden vertical foregrip, back in '88, sold it for $300 in Concord, California, while in the service, two weeks later the Cali ban went into effect and it was worth $1500. It shot alright, fun to shoot. The WASRs are the worst, usually with canted sights and gas blocks, assmebled by Century's drunken monkeys. the last one I had to take to a gunsmith to restake the front sight before we sold it.
True Russian made AKs, like the 101 series, are supposed to be far better, but I have never played with one.
Both are reliable, both are rugged, I like the vz-58 better and feel it works better for me, plus mine shows better accuracy for me than the AKM clones I owned in the past.
Best answer I can give ya!
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Thank you Salskov, saved to favorites and going to print copies on this tidbit.
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armoredman was in the middle of typing when you replied. Actually talking to friend on cell phone, going to copy post and let him read it,( his internet is out of service) besides that, thank you guys!