The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ CLONE CLUB => Topic started by: Blown Nitro Pontiac on December 05, 2010, 07:33:08 PM
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Any reviews on this pistol, or am I just looking in the wrong place?
Thanks!
BNP
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You are in the right place. There are a few forum members here that have them, albeit only a few.
Basicly, the AR24 is a slightly modified Tanfoglio 9mm/.40 Frame Witness, which is in turn a slightly modifed CZ75 design. The samples I have examined appear to be very well made of very good steel. The Pistol is a result of a very strained partnership between Tanfoglio (Italy) and Sarsilmaz (Turkey). So far the AR24's have a very good reputation for Accuracy, Reliability, and Durability. What's not to like?!
Online Review, albeit a bit wordy:
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/05/robert-farago/gun-review-armalite-ar-24-15c/ (http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/05/robert-farago/gun-review-armalite-ar-24-15c/)
Charles Petty Review:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_53/ai_n27161899/ (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_53/ai_n27161899/)
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The AR/Sarsilmaz is a clone of a copy, which is to say, it is a clone of a Tanfoglio, which is a copy of a CZ. Clone because the Sarsilmaz is based on the Tanfoglio modifications to the design, and copy because the Tanfoglio has CZ features and obviously started life as a clone of the CZ-75, but through the years, Tanfoglio made modifications and improvements to the CZ design, so much that parts do not readily interchange while overall construction is significantly different.
EAA is now importing, according to their website, Sarsilmaz pistols as well as Tanfoglio pistols. The AR is/was a fine pistol and so far the responses, while sparse, have been generally positive. I would own one now if they only made on on a large, 45acp frame. That brings me to the point that sets the AR apart from the Tanfoglio. It is a small-frame CZ copy, which is to say it will feel much more like a CZ than the Tanfoglio does. The modern Witness has a hand-filling grip (something I'm used to as I enjoy the 45acp) whereas the AR-24 has a slightly smaller-proportioned grip because of its chambering, making it feel closer akin to a CZ-75. However, the grip proportions will be slightly different because of the Tanfoglio roots, and so perhaps it would be closer to say the AR will feel just like an older Witness.
This is important because the AR-24 will NOT take large-frame Tanfoglio or MecGar magazines. In any case, it is a fine pistol with that retro SIG 210 look to it.
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i got one after a LGS put them on sale. wasnt really willing to pay the asking price that was almost as much as a real CZ.
the AR24 isnt a lightweight imo. and you notice it the first time you pick it up. i havent shot mine yet so dont know about the accuracry/function/reliability.
SOME of my CZs and Mecgars fit, but it was a crap shoot. also since i havent fired it yet, the function of the mags is questionable too.
if you can get one at a good price, iwould consider it.
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if you can get one at a good price, i would consider it.
Yes, that's why I asked. I felt that this was a good price:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=201516099 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=201516099)
;)
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In nearly every "discussion" (to put it mildly) that I've read on the AR-24, someone in the peanut gallery attempts to compare its MSRP to the actual "out the door" price on a CZ or Witness. I have no idea why, other than to claim that the Armalite offering is "overpriced".
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/YosemiteSam357/Guns/IMG_0128Small.jpg)
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/YosemiteSam357/Guns/IMG_0135Small.jpg)
I paid about $425 for mine, if memory serves. Great gun. I'm a little concerned about getting support for it in the event of failure (Armalite seems pretty unsure, itself), but figure anyone who can work on CZ or Witness can likely work on this.
I wish I had gotten the adjustable sighted model, and I wish it came with a decocker, so it matched my Sigs.
-- Sam
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I picked one up used this summer. Got it for $349 before taxes. Fit and finish is better than an EAA in my opinion. Handling is great and feels just different enough from a CZ to justify itself. My friend has been eying it since I picked it up and I'll probably let him have it. Accuracy is similar to a CZ.
I've had mixed results with magazines. It has used the Baby Desert Eagle mags without an issue. I can use the CZ mags but I have to hold some of them in as they drop out. The ones that do lock into place don't lock the slide to the rear after the last round. Other than the magazine issue, they are a great buy. You can typically find them for a great deal used.
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It has used the Baby Desert Eagle mags without an issue.
Baby Desert Eagle Magazines are the same as Small Frame Witness Magazines and are the proper magazine for the AR24, as it's design was based on the Small Frame Witness. That CZ75 Magazines will not work well in it is no surprise, but no big deal, either.
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Last one on Gunbroker.com, brand new, went for $386.00.
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I had one last summer. Great feel, accurate, fed and ejected everything I put in it. My only complaint was the trigger. It was very light. If I applied the pressure I put on my 75, it went off.
They are very nice guns, I just liked the feel of my 75 better. A friend wanted it, made me an offer, and he owns it now and loves it.
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Just bought a brand new AR-24 full sizer today.
$425 out the door.
It's only the second new gun I've ever bought; last one being a Super Blackhawk in 1985...in stainless....for $247.
;)
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Where'd ya get it????
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Where'd ya get it????
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=209085041 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=209085041)
;)
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Enjoy your AR-24. I have one as well. I bought it new back in May 2010 for $403 out the door (it was a group deal from my LGS).
A little advice as I pointed out in this thread (http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=34180.msg188556#msg188556), the AR-24 likes 124 grain ammo, the hotter the better. It also is a very "tight" gun and the break-in period is long. I put 1200 rounds through mine before I stopped getting the occasional stovepipe or FTE. It also likes the slide rails oiled.
Magazines from the original small-frame EAA witness fit the AR-24 and perform better and cost less ($75 for three) than the factory mags (and hold an extra cartridge).
While there aren't many options for the AR-24, it's a great shooter and probably more accurate than most shooters.
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In the past month I have bought (2) used CZ pistols for $400.00 from individuals. Both looked brand new! I got a CZ 75B with a trip thru the CZ custom shop to polish the feed ramp and add a heavier Wolf recoil spring and a CZ 75 P01 with steel guide rod, soft case, snap caps, and 250 rounds of 9mm ammo. Since the deals are out there and the CZ support is so good, I don't know why anyone would go with the clones and take the risk?
$400 out the door with no taxes, shipping, FFL fee and extras included. All it takes is patience. I am staying CZ!
All guns are good....just some gooder than others! Good luck all!
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I don't know why anyone would go with the clones and take the risk?
This is the clone section of the forum, I'm just saying..... ???
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Because the Tanfoglio departure from the original design is in many ways superior. The Tanfoglio firing pin block is superior to CZ's and was introduce first (theirs lowers the block, reducing spring pressure while CZ's rises the block, increasing pressure, the result is the Tanfoglio design will always have an advantage in trigger quality out the gate). Also, the Tanfoglio safety allows for cocked-and-locked, hammer down with safety off, or hammer down with safety on. The CZ design only allows the safety to be engaged with the hammer back. The Tanfoglio design also does without the CZ magazine brake, which is superfluous at best.
Now, CZ does still hold a firm place in my heart in 9mm, but the reality is that the Tanfoglio design improvements are actually superior to the original CZ design. One can argue execution and I'll grant CZ quality is superb, but design is solidly in Tanfoglio's corner. The proof of this is that every CZ-based design, save for early 1980's copies like the early AT-84, is based on the Tanfoglio improvements (even when they do not use Tanfoglio-made parts such as Sarsilmaz and ASAI).
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I obviously stand before a more educated man than myself. Good input and sound logic. I am more informed than before. I do like the support structure CZ has around their brand however. I have not seen that with the other products. Thanks Southern Forester.
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Again, I have a soft spot in 9mm for the original CZ. I don't own a Tanfoglio in 9mm, but do own a CZ. So, interestingly enough, in its original caliber, I went with the original over what I consider improvements (I do have a Jericho in 9mm with frame-mounted safety, but it is early with a magazine brake so the only real improvement is the safety - I purchased this one because it was acutally an Israeli-issued pistol and not a Magnum Research import). My only departure came with bigger-bore pistols.
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Since the deals are out there and the CZ support is so good, I don't know why anyone would go with the clones and take the risk?
I am staying CZ!
All guns are good....just some gooder than others! Good luck all!
I feel the same way, I've got a friend looking for another pistol and he said nearly the exact same thing early last week. After looking at several different 9's and 40's he decided a new CZ wasn't much more than the others he was considering so it's probably the path he's taking. He would like to rent/shoot some of the pistols we searched through before buying though.
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IMO, I'm fairly partial to the original small frame series 88 Tanfoglio's/Witnesses/P9's and CZ's when it comes to the 9mm Caliber and if the .40 were my thing, it would be the same for that.. To get this thread back on track, the AR24 qualifies as a small frame Tanfoglio design and I could see adding one to my "Practical Collection" at some point in time.
Now I do know of people who are doing well with the Large Frame Witness Matches in 9mm, but I'm not quite sold on them. I would have to own/play with one for awhile to really get to know it, which probably is not in the cards at this point for me. Some of you other characters out there who own them, are going to have to share your experiences with them.
Now when it comes to the .45 ACP, the Witness wins for me!!!
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Since the deals are out there and the CZ support is so good, I don't know why anyone would go with the clones and take the risk?
Because I already HAVE a CZ75B stainless, a CZ85B, a Springfield Armory P9, a TZ75/88 and now an Armalite, that's why.
It's this little hobby called "gun collecting."
Surely you've heard of it.
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CZ's support is good - as long as the warranty exists. My CZ-75 is already well-beyond it's warranty expiration date. I have zero warranty support for it now. I'm not worried about that personally, but I own my firearms longer than 5 years.
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It's this little hobby called "gun collecting."
Surely you've heard of it.
Yes I have. I admire any man or woman that does it. Not trying to downgrade any decision any have made. Maybe I did not express myself well. That said, I just picked up a CZ P01 from the classifieds section for $400 which included 250 rounds of ammo!
What has been your experience with the Tangfolio pistol?
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Mine has been excellent. Ditto for CZ products, though I have consistently found that Tanfoglio triggers are considerably better.
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212320592 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212320592)
:o
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I agree regarding the "small frame" Tanfoglios. I have "regular" sized hands and the original CZ/TZ sized frames fit my hand perfectly. I'm lucky to own a baby TA90, TZ75/series 88 40SW, Mossad "baby" 9mm and a P9 and I love the way they fit in my hand.
Never could get into the new Witness sized pistols because the grip is just alittle to large for me to be happy.
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Good for you clone guys............staying CZ! Good luck!
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I wish I had gotten the adjustable sighted model
Why, were the fixed sights significantly off? I wouldn't mind having the adjustable sights, but I don't think that I'd like the grip on the Tactical model. I'm still debating which way to go.
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Both the CZ and Witness pistols are GREAT pistols. I also must agree that the NEW Witness triggers are smoother "out of the box" than the NEW CZ,s. But that is is easy to fix.
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I just bought a AR24 TC(frame checkering and adjustable rear sight).I got the Armalite and a Witness 45/22 combo from Bud's on Friday. Seems very well made.I have abnormally big hands and it feels OK but my Witness steel 45 feels so much better. I wonder if the grips for a small frame witness or Baby Eagle would fit the AR 24 ? I am stuck with it. The "hump" on the top of the grip panel is giving me fits as it is under my trigger finger knuckle with a high hold.I may just trim it flat. I hope even the tickiest lawyer at Armalite would not consider that a warranty breaker.While deciding on the purchase I thought there might be a chance that EAA would take over as the prime importer from Armalite with the Turk made clones but that did not detour me, something about the Armalite just grabbed me and I had to have it.
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singleshotcajun, welcome to the forum! Let us know your impression once you get to shoot it.
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Good morning folks,
I?ve been lurking here for several months while researching the AR24-15C vs. the wide variety of CZ and CZ clone pistols for the purposes of choosing which one to buy. I ended up choosing the AR24 for several reasons.
1. The small frame feels better to me than the larger varients.
2. The firing pin retaining plate seems a better design and is certainly easier to disassemble/reassemble.
3. Checkered front and back straps provide excellent purchase on the weapon.
4. Though it is purely aesthetic, I like the round trigger guard.
5. A second aesthetic quality contributing to my choice the clean machining and coating lauded in most reviews was spot on for the example I handled at a local range.
6. Though I have read many mixed reviews with respect to the performance of the AR24, this gun was not purchased for defensive purposes.
7. The sight picture suited my tastes better on the AR24-15C than that for the CZ75B.
8. I paid $505 for my AR24 which was $25 < the CZ.
Purchasing from Bud?s proved easy and I will purchase from them again.
I thoroughly cleaned the pistol, lubed it with my favorite oil and grease and have dry fired it roughly 500x. The trigger has smoothed up noticeably, and I expect it will continue to improve with more cycles.
So far, I have fired 100 Winchester White Box cartridges through the pistol with one malfunction in the first magazine. This was a failure to return to battery. At this time, I am assuming it was due to the tight lock-up of the pistol. Time will tell.
Much like the guy from The Truth About Guns, I find this pistol extremely easy to fire accurately. While I am no bulls-eye expert shooter, I found putting five shot off-hand groups into 1? paper squares at a meager 10 yards to be boringly/excitingly easy. I attribute this to the good sight picture, wonderful ergonomics, and the extremely tame nature of 9mm through a full sized steel framed gun. Simply put, it was easy to grip, point, aim, and squeeze without flinching.
Thanks for all the previous reviews allowing me to purchase what has the potential to become my favorite 9mm. I will post updates as I put it through its paces over time, as I understand the value of such anecdotal experiences when trying to choose among many quite similar pistols.
Take care,
Malcolm
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Malcolm, welcome to the forum! Definitely share your experiences with us.
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Good afternoon folks,
I just returned home from a beautiful weekend at my uncle's farm where my AR24-15C had its second workout. We ran 250 rounds of Remmington UMC through it without any problems; however, my pistol seems to group better with the Winchester White Box. Of the 250 rounds of UMC 45 were shot by an 11 year old who had only previously shot a Ruger Mark II. The gun cycled fine, as the boy has an appropriately firm grip.
At this point, I am a total of 350 rounds in with ~700 dry fires. The trigger continues to smooth up noticeably. However, I'd assume I am approaching the point of diminishing returns, as the trigger is very good at this point with little creep and no grit. Other than a trigger job, I am afraid I am stuck with the take-up and over travel. At this point, the SA is better than any Sig I have ever owned. I'm a happy camper.
Take care,
Malcolm
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Sounds like a very good range trip and your AR-24C sounds like a real winner! 8)
That it performed well with Remington/UMC ammunition speaks well of it, as that brand of ammunition has been problematic for about the last 6 years.
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The more I shoot the AR 24 the more I like it. I naturally take a "high" hold on pistols(grew up shooting 1911s) so any handgun I own better have a Browning type safety that does not decock from downward pressure of my thumb. The frame mounted decock issue is one reason I did not buy a CZ online without trying one out as many of the new CZ 75 pistols are designed in this manner and Bud's descriptions are not always clear in that regard. While shooting the AR 24 with a high hold the "hump" on top of the grip that bugged me while just getting a feel of the pistol actually serves a purpose for me. The hump helps me concentrate on using the tip of my trigger finger on the trigger.I've shot one hundred Winchester white box FMJ and one hundred PPU 115 gr hollow points with no issues. Very impressed thus far. The Tanfoglio fits my abnormally big hands better but the Armalite does seem to be a better made firearm. I have read that TZ75 and Baby Eagle Hogue grips will fit the AR 24 full size. I emailed Hogue with the question and the response was that they could not confirm. They suggested a Hogue wrap around grip,No thanks as that would cover up the wonderful checkering.I may eventually try Hogue's nice wood grip panels for TZ 75 . Let me mention the weight of the AR 24. What precious few articles are available harp on the weight, let me say that the AR 24 is not noticeably heavy at least not to me. My current carry gun is a Taurus 24/7 OSS and the AR 24 is smaller and lighter.Size and weight is comparable to a standard 1911.
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I have read that TZ75 and Baby Eagle Hogue grips will fit the AR 24 full size.
The Hogue Cz75/Tz75/TA90/EAA Witness grips, yes! Baby Eagle grips, no! Also the Wrap-around Grips can have the center section cut away, if desired.
Glad you are enjoying your new AR24!
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Thanks,the info on the grips is great to know.At least there is one after market option. I think I'll stick with Armalite mags as the MEC-GAR 17 round Small frame Witness mags are 37.50 on their website and Armalite gets 30.00 for theirs.
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I just bought the Ar 24 tactical this morning to add to my growing Cz clone collection I choose the tactical for the front and rear checkering on the grip area of the frame and the adjustable rear sight . Should have before Thanksgiving which is good because we head to the range before frying the turkey. Can 't wait to shoot this one and I am sure that it will be trouble free -another fine made Turkish cz clone.
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I just bought the Ar 24 tactical this morning to add to my growing Cz clone collection I choose the tactical for the front and rear checkering on the grip area of the frame and the adjustable rear sight . Should have before Thanksgiving which is good because we head to the range before frying the turkey. Can 't wait to shoot this one and I am sure that it will be trouble free -another fine made Turkish cz clone.
Can't wait to hear how well the Armalite performs. 8)
Which Turkish company makes the AR-24?
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Found the answer to my own question. The AR-24 is made by Sarsilmaz. One source said the AR-24 is a M2000 but Wikipedia says it's a Kilinc 2000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armalite_AR-24
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/tr/sarsilmaz-kilinc-2000-e.html
http://www.sarsilmaz.com.tr/en
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I have a bunch of gun from Sarslimaz already including the Sar k2 - 15 rounds of 45 ACP whats not to love? Love it so much I bought 7 additional mags. At 25 yards I can hit my 8 inch wide by 10 high steel torso style swinging plate target all day, its one of my favorite CZ clones and for $451.00 that I paid for it.
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I just bought the Ar 24 tactical this morning to add to my growing Cz clone collection
Congratulations! :) Look forward to reading your Range Report on it!
There are a lot of tempting deals going on right now, but I'm buying/restocking Ammunition and Reloading Supplies these days.
The SAR K2, Canik 55 Stingray, Canik 55 TP9, and AR 24 are tempting. Right now, I'm EXTREMELY well armed, as is.
I did get a Vz2008 (Vz58 Clone/Copy) and a Charles Daly 1911 EFS this year.
Unfortunately, I also need to shop for another Car or SUV.
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If you caught my comments in my TP9 Canik thread I gave that one a thumbs down the trigger pull on that is just beyond terrible . When they came out they were $350.00 for the package -holster two ways to were it pistol and 2 mags -decocker- nice deal rright -would be .but trying to be accurate is a n art with this trigger system . Now the price is down to $299.00 bettter deal I say no many other better canik products to choose from. Now I will say that I like the decocker feature found it very easy to use,but that does not make up for the terrible almost 2 stage trigger feel. I am still working on trying to master this trigger , but i would not resale this pistol or recommend this one to a customer. Brian / EFR
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For kicks I tried my Witness steel 45/22 .22 conversion slide on the Armalite. The slide fits good but when the slide stop is inserted the back of the slide is about 1/8" beyond the frame and it is a no go for function. I mainly tried this in an attempt to find out if my slide would work on a Tanfoglio P19L which we know to be a small frame Tanfoglio.
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You cannot mix conversions between the Large Frame and Small Frame Tanfoglio based Pistols, but now you already know this from your experience.
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My Armalite 24 tactical came in this afternoon everything looks to be in good condition-has the same adjustable rear sight on it that my sar K-2 pistol has. A little of the finish is worn off the slide stop and safety, but other than that everything looks great nice and tight. Unfortunately i will have very little time too shoot this week as I have a lot of cerakote orders to complete this week. Trigger has a slight gritty feel to it ,but I am confident that it will smooth out as it gets some use. I like the weight it balances well in the hand and the grip actually has a better feel than my SP01 CZ. Now I just need some time at the range. Brian /EFR
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Looking forward to your review and range report, Brian.
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Well, it appears that I waited too long to buy additional mags.I can find none anywhere since all the foolishness started.Know one has any small frame tanfo,Baby Eagle or Jericho mags in stock either. I may have to try some CZ 75 mags and alter if need be, sp01 mags,plain ole cz 75 ?
I talked myself into trimming the "hump" off the right side of the grip. I never plan to sell it so it does not really matter.The grips are perfect for me and my hold now.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/cajuncj/Armalite%20AR%2024%20TC/IMG_101_zps56a7d58f.jpg)