The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ CLONE CLUB => Topic started by: Bret on August 13, 2011, 10:46:14 AM
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I picked up my 9mm/22LR large frame Witness conversion yesterday. I have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but it looks good. I've found someone to ream the 9mm upper to 9x23. I have a few questions.
1) Which magazines do I use, 9mm or 38Super? I don't have any 9x23 to test in the 9mm magazine, but a 38Super FMJ that I have was too long.
2) Will the 9mm extractor be fine as is?
3) What spring weight would you recommend? I'll be shooting the Winchester factory JSP as well as my own reloads. My reloads will likely be less hot than the factory ammo.
4) Will this 9mm upper half that I just got work on a Witness Match single action lower half?
5) Is there anything else that I should know about a 9x23 conversion?
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Bret:
If you don't get the answers you seek, PM Rod Slinger
He's kinda the Witness guru around these parts
Good luck
Shoot safe, Den S
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Send Mustang400 a PM. he just had his barrel done by Jim Milks ( Innovative Custom Guns ) used to be with EGW ( when they did guns). EGW has a lot of experience working with 9x23 as they were involved with the original 9x23 design.
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I picked up my 9mm/22LR large frame Witness conversion yesterday. I have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but it looks good. I've found someone to ream the 9mm upper to 9x23. I have a few questions.
1) Which magazines do I use, 9mm or 38Super? I don't have any 9x23 to test in the 9mm magazine, but a 38Super FMJ that I have was too long.
2) Will the 9mm extractor be fine as is?
3) What spring weight would you recommend? I'll be shooting the Winchester factory JSP as well as my own reloads. My reloads will likely be less hot than the factory ammo.
4) Will this 9mm upper half that I just got work on a Witness Match single action lower half?
5) Is there anything else that I should know about a 9x23 conversion?
1. 9x23 is same OAL as 38 Super, use the 38S magazine
2.9mm extractor should be fine. especially with the way the Tanfoglio extractor system is designed.
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Bret..... Asked me to weigh in on his plans so here goes.
I picked up my 9mm/22LR large frame Witness conversion yesterday. I have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but it looks good. I've found someone to ream the 9mm upper to 9x23. I have a few questions.
1) Which magazines do I use, 9mm or 38Super? I don't have any 9x23 to test in the 9mm magazine, but a 38Super FMJ that I have was too long. The 38 Super would be my choice.
2) Will the 9mm extractor be fine as is?
The 9mm extractor should work.
3) What spring weight would you recommend? I'll be shooting the Winchester factory JSP as well as my own reloads. My reloads will likely be less hot than the factory ammo.
I am a firm believer in matching the recoil spring to the shooter, ammo and intended use for the gun. The Witness is greatly under sprung for most shooters who shoot factor ammo with anything but the lightest weight bullet. If you are going to shoot the gun in matches with light reloads the factory recoil spring will most likely be OK. If I was going down this road if would get several weight springs from Wolff.
4) Will this 9mm upper half that I just got work on a Witness Match single action lower half?
Maybe. The Match is a custom shop gun that is hand fitted. The only way you will know is to try it.
5) Is there anything else that I should know about a 9x23 conversion? Make sure you find all your brass before it walks off the range.
Last but not least DenStinett is for smarter than I will ever be. R S
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I started with Match 38 Super. And then bought complete 9mm upper(Match) from EAA. Ran 500rds+ thru each. The new K series mags are the way to go. K38 stamped on tube.
Then bought Winchester Q4304 9x23 JSP ammo. Ammo hand cycles thru the 38Super mag and gun with no issues. Didn't hurt to have Stuart walking me thru this build. Half way there.
Jim Milks at Innovative Custom Guns,814-766-3004 worked with just the 9mm upper and no frame. He had the same factory ammo so working with an empty case and loaded cartridge he was able to optimize ammo to barrel fitment. He then worked some slight throating and tightened the ejector. Jim was easy to deal with, 10 day turn around and fairly priced. Make sure the gunsmith you go with has owned and shot 9x23 guns!
I went with Winchester 9x23 ammo because the brass is built much tougher than the other brands! I've read were guys have reloaded these Winchester cases 15+ times. All most to the go bang part!
9x23 upper now meets back with 38S lower and off to the range. Ho-Hum, runs off 19rds like it just came out of the box from Tangfolio. I now have the ballistics of 357 mag ammo but half the recoil. It was almost anti-climatic, i expected 357mag recoil and got 40MAJOR recoil.
I just used the 38s spring, slings brass 15ft.
Bret,
The dust cover on my Match 38s frame is plenty short enough to fit the 4.5" (i think you have) barrel(match barrels are 4.75"). Both yours and the Match are Large Frame guns so there should no fitment problems. OR the less exspensive way to go might be to buy one of Hennings SAO triggers and have the gunsmith install it. Now you wouldn't need the 38Super frame, and could use what you got. Just need to buy 38S mags.
There are a lot of guys out there that have shot 9x23 1911's but very few that have shot 19rd mags out of these new Tangfolio Large Frame guns. I hope you move ahead with your build!
david
I hope this has helped. Headed back to the range tomorrow to shoot my first full box or so. Box doesn't last long when the mag holds 18rds. K38 mags are wearing H500 pads, no other mods.
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Jim Milks used to be George Smith's lead gunsmith when EGW built guns. George helped John Ricco work up the original 9x23 before WIN got hold of it. So John is very familiar with the 9x23 cartridge and making great guns.
Just for reference. Here is photo of some brass I sectioned years ago when I played a bunch with the cartridge
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v483/eerw/Cool%20Stuff/Untitled-2.jpg)
WIN9x23 brass in the middle. You can see how much thicker it is
(38Super, Starline 9SuperComp, Win9x23, CP9X23, 9X21)
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George was very nice on the phone and sent me to Jim.
Pics are worth a thousand words! Looks like a wrap for the Win9x23.
I called the last phone # i could find for John and got his store but he had sold out to someone else(still works there). They did not make ammo anymore, whitch is what i was looking for at the time. I never thought to get him on the phone and see if he was still pistol smithing.
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Why did you get an entirely different upper, rather than just barrel and recoil spring?
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I think the conversion kits have to be test fired at the factory. Some fitting could have been involved. The long slide kit for $145 more gets you the LPA Super Sight(adj.) installed w/correct front sight, guide rod spring(correct), guide rod, slide release and one new K9 mag. Sounded like a better buy to me. The LS(Match 4.75") barrel is $150 alone. I find for myself it's easier to keep track of complete uppers than barrels(i use both). All parts go in proprietary bins marked by caliber and manufacturer.
The last project on this build is sending the new 6" 9mm barrel,frame, 9mm slide to the AWC Suppressor folks and have them cut(5.35"?),
thread, fit barrel protector and fire for function. May never get suppressor but the worst i end up with is a long barreled 9mm Match!
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I started with Match 38 Super. And then bought complete 9mm upper(Match) from EAA. Ran 500rds+ thru each. The new K series mags are the way to go. K38 stamped on tube.
You've convinced me to set my 9mm/22LR combo aside and get a 9mm Match. I'll probably just sell the 9mm upper that came with the combo. This way I'll have a dedicated 22LR and a dedicated 9x23. I already have a small frame full sized 9mm and a small frame compact 40S&W. I'll give Jim Milks a call.
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Bret,
You will need 38 Super mags and bigger guide rod spring also.
75rds went to target from the 9x23 yesterday. Mags are breaking in and now hold 19+1. If you owned a 1911 running this ammo, you would have to carry three other mags + a loaded gun. The new Deasert Eagle 357mag (now owned by Karr) SA, i think only hold 7+1 and is $1500.
Again, this one Bad Ass carry gun and the first i put the target at 25yds and beat up the 2" center of a 6'' target. Still work to be done!
Being 62 years old i think my goal of a 6'' target at 50yds is doable. Gun is very accurate.
Looking forward to hearing about your 9x23 build drama, god knows you'll have had to listen to mine.Any help you need , let me know.
david
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You will need 38 Super mags and bigger guide rod spring also.
By this do you mean a heavier recoil spring?
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On average, how many FPS do you gain going from 9mm to 9x23, using the same bullets?
Is the 9x23 any more inherently accurate than the 9mm?
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The 9x23 Winchester cartridge is based on a rifle cartridge base and wall, so the pressures can be up near 50,000 psi. With pressures in the mid 40,000 psi range you can easily gain about 300 fps over the 9x19 with the same weight bullet and barrel length. I've often thought that a carbine in this caliber would be a great little tool.
By the way, Winchester loads this round with a small rifle primer.
I had a long conversation with Ed Nowak at the SHOT Show a couple of years ago about the 9x23 Winchester round. Ed is kind of full of himself, but he takes credit for Winchester producing the round on a commercial basis. He used to shoot it in IPSC competition, but he's now selling off his guns. He shot it for a full year in competition in a .38 Super match gun (1911) and just carried a chamber brush with him and cleaned the chamber after each stage of fire. At that time no one was producing barrels. He said that Nowlin made his first 9x23 barrel for him.
As for accuracy, there are so many variables that it would be difficult to say that one is better than the other, but I've found it to be a very accurate round in MY pistols.
The 9x23 Winchester does require a heavier recoil spring than the 9x19 does.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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Thanks, Fred. It was very helpful.
I know that barrel quality, fit, and bullet construction are the most important attributes to precision. But I was just thinking that maybe 9x23 was more inherently accurate than the 9x19 kind of like how 10mm and 357Sig are usually more accurate than 40S&W, 9mm more than the 380, the PPC cartridges more so than their parent cases, or 308Win more than the 30-30, etc.
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Shows how much i know i thought a guide rod spring and recoil spring were the same.
9mm-Winchester factory ammo.
Q4318-NATO - 124gr fmj = 1305 fps+415ftlbs +P
RA9124TP - 124gr jhp = 1180fps+383ftlbs +P
RA9TA - 127gr jhp = 1250fps+441ftlbs +P+
RA9115HP - 115gr jhp = 1335fps+455ftlbs +P+
9x23-Winchester factory ammo
Q4304 - 124gr jsp =1460fps+587ftlbs (same as 357 Mag ammo)
Looking at the Pics in Stuart's above post of different 9mm ammo it's obvious that the Winchester 9x23 brass could carry a larger grain bullet if hand loaded.
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I never tried it myself because I had issues with getting 9X23 ammo, but I had read from several sources that 9X23 worked in unmodified .38 super Witness pistols, and the barrels were practically the same, just the breechface on the .38 Super is more like the size you see on a .40 cal. In fact, I did some swapping around and found that I could fit a .40 barrel on a .38 super and it was just a wee bit tight with the .40, but not badly. I never sold anything that way because I was told it was unsafe, but never had anything go Kaboom from it either.
There has been a long time issue with the .38 super mags they had for European sales vs the ones for US sales, as the Euro variants would be marked "38 SA" and sometimes "9mm SA" which I was told meant "special auto". I still have several left over since I had a pretty big batch made available to me back during the ban and I snapped them up. I can only find two right now, but know I have more at my old place somewhere.
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Alex I know I speak for a lot of us Old Timers in saying that it is good to have you and your knowledge back. For you young pups, Alex was modifying the Witness while the rest of us was trying to figure how to field strip it. You were missed. R S
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Today I picked up the 9mm Match that I'm going to use for the 9x23 conversion. Talk about smooth. I'll ship off the upper in a few days. I'm really looking forward to getting it working.
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Bret,
Big difference between your old steel gun and the Match. Very little difference in $.
Good to hear you got you new project working! What about ammo?
david
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What about ammo?
I lucked out and bought nine 100 case bags of new Winchester brass from MidwayUSA at a little over $20 per bag. I also bought some 124gr FMJ's and a couple of boxes of Hornady 124gr XTP's. I also have some Zero 147gr JHP's that I'd like to try. I bought a set of Hornady 9x23 dies from some unknown internet company that I forget the name of. Now I just need some reloading data. Hodgdon only lists one load on their website.
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Couple of links for you
http://www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-reloading-data/relodata/6/32
http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23/reload.html
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=9x23%20Winchester&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source
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Bret,
If you ever get to this point i'd sure like to buy a box of the 147gr. ammo. I've looked at brass, you were a lucky guy that day!
david
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I found a pile of those 18 shot large frame magazines if anyone is interested. They are the "during the ban" Euro pattern. Think I have eight on hand now.
I am curious, what is the consensus on 9X23 vs .357 Sig? Seems like you get better everything. More consistent ammo, more mag capacity, easier reloading. I remember having the discussion with the new marketing guy at EAA in 05 before I was "taken away". Forgot his name but he said he had previously worked at Sigarms USA and they were sitting on piles of .357 Sig pistols that they could not sell, thus they had no intention of going with a .357 Sig Witness pistol as a regular production item.
It was about that time that the FN 5-7 was getting a lot of attention and I had one on order from a local FFL, but had not picked it up yet (I eventually just bought one from another dealer and cancelled my order). We were looking at finding some way to do a hyper velocity Witness conversion, but I could not come up with barrel blanks on a cost effective basis. We tried some things with 7.62 Tokarev but that was doomed to fail due to the grip size issue. Then there was .30 Luger would could get interesting, but we had the barrel blank availability issue. Seems a 9X23 necked down to .223 would get really interesting in a hurry though. Realistically, maybe just neck it down to 2.43 if you can get barrel blanks that would work. That gives you some options in keeping bullet weights up while still having a bottleneck cartridge that gives hyper velocity.
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Stuart, Thanks for the reloading data. I think I'm going to use some of the Lapua data. I've always wanted to try one of thier powder because I've heard they are real clean burning. Their 3N37 looks to be a good choice. It can give 1500fps with a 115gr bullet and 1400fps with a 124gr bullet.
If you ever get to this point i'd sure like to buy a box of the 147gr. ammo. I've looked at brass, you were a lucky guy that day!
As much as I'd like to help you out, I have a personal policy of not selling or even giving my reloads away. It's a liability thing. If I make a mistake, the only person that I'll injur with my reloads is myself. On the other hand. I am willing to show others how to reload and watch them through the process. You're right. I did get a great deal on that brass.
I am curious, what is the consensus on 9X23 vs .357 Sig? Seems like you get better everything. More consistent ammo, more mag capacity, easier reloading.
The 357Sig has an advantage over the 9x23 in that it can go in small framed pistols. Most shooters just don't want large framed pistols. They want small framed double stack hicap pistols. 357Sig ammo is expensive, but 9x23 is even more expensive. I have a 357Sig barrel for my Glock 23. Recoil is very sharp. I'm sure this turns a lot of people off from the cartridge. I'm hoping the 9x23 recoil isn't as sharp. Fortunately for me, shooting the large frame that the 9x23 requires isn't a problem. Then again, I won't be carrying this Witness because it's so big and heavy, but I do sometimes carry my Glock 23.
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3n37 is a nice powder. Used it pretty much exclusively when I used 9x23 in my competition open guns and had my 1911 5" 9x23. It was very consistent and clean burning.
Mustang. I may have some once fired brass around if you need it. I'll have to dig through my gunroom and see what's stuck on the shelves.
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Bret,
No problem, i don't reload so i had to ask. I'm shooting 500rds/mo of all calibers, it's about time i got smart about this. Were is the break even point in hand loading against equipment and brass, powder etc. I have a friend who could "watch me through"-- good idea! Lets assume i've now reloaded 2000rds and am now in my reloading comfort zone could i expect my cost /rd to be a little bit less than half of what i paid for Winchester factory JSP 9x23 --- $ .54/rd?
Stuart,
I'll take you up on that offer!
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I'm going to estimate what the cost of a box of 50rds of 124gr FMJ would be.
Bullets: Zero 124gr FMJ's at $110.60 per 1000 delivered = $0.1106 per cartridge
Powder: Vihtavuori 3N37 at $35 per LB (1Lb = 7000 grains) at 7.5gr = $0.0375 per cartridge.
Primers: Winchester small rifle primers at $32 per 1000 = $0.0320 per cartridge
Cases: Winchester brass at $32.00 per 100 = $0.3200 per cartridge
Total = $0.5001 per cartridge which is $25.005 per box of 50rds.
As you can see, the big expense in all this is the cases. When you reload them, the cost per cartridge falls to $0.1801 per cartridge or $9.005 per box. This cost is just ever so slightly higher than the cost to reload regular 9mm. You can reduce the initial cost of making complete cartridges by using Starline brass or a less expensive power. I elected to go with the Winchester cases because I've read that they are more durable. Assuming that a box of factory Winchester 9x23 costs $25, you're saving about $16 per box of 50rds. This is definitely a cartridge that it pays to reload. I'll pay for the cost of my 9x23 reloading dies by the time I make my 5th box of ammo. On the other hand, regular 9mm can be purchased for about $11 per box of 50rds delivered, so it doesn't really pay that much to reload it. It would actually cost more to make yourself from scratch. Keep in mind that this is just a cost analysis. You can do things with your reloads that you can't find in factory ammo. JHP's can be reloaded for only slightly more, which is a bigger savings versus factory ammo.
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That's quit a big difference. I'm in! I see your using SRP's, that's the hot set for this caliber?
There's no snap to this load, no comparision to a Glock firing 357Sig. About like 40 Major!
Besides the dies, what will a mid-range complete loading system cost and how does that effect loaded boxes to cover that cost?
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Alex... 9x23 vs 357 Sig. Interesting question. I have a Witness small frame and large frame in 357 Sig. Jest started working with the 38 Super, late starter there. The 9x25 Dillon may be the better answer to the Sig. On the 357 Sig. The best gun for this round is the large frame. The reason I state this is as follows. The 357 Sig in the small frame is bullet and AOL sensitive. Let the length creep or use blunt hollow points and the rounds want to bridge in the mag. In the larger Mags for the large frame Witness you can load a wider weight of bullets and by increasing AOL increase safely the power charge which will make the Sig. Zip along.
Loading the 357 Sig is like loading any bottle neck cartridge in that they require more care. Possibly the better bullet choice for the Sig. round would have been a true .357 dia. bullet instead of the .355 9mm. bullet. I would like to be able to run 110gr and 125gr rounds made for the 357Mag. Well I guess I have stared the pot enough for now. R S
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I have not actually loaded any 9x23 yet. I just have everything that I need besides the powder. I'm going to wait until I get my upper back before loading some cartridges. By having the 9x23 upper, I can do a better job of setting the correct overall cartridge length. I've read that small rifle primers should be used, so I'm sticking with the experience of others.
As for the cost of a reloading system, it really depends if you're going with a single stage press or a progressive press. You can do a greater quantity on a progressive, but it costs more. I've loaded on a single stage press for over fifteen years. It takes longer than a progressive, but I'm able to keep up with my ammo needs. I do however buy factory ammo to supplement my 9mm usage. I would personally suggest starting with a single stage press and then buying a progressive later if you feel you have the need. A single stage press will still be useful even if you later buy a progressive. As for cost, it just depends on which model you go with. I'm partial to Hornady equipment because I like the dies. Others will work fine too. They'll all produce good ammo if setup properly, it's just that some equipment is easier to work with or more accurate than other equipment. I'd suggest watching your friend, watching videos on youtube, and reading reloading books. Lyman's reloading book does the best job of describing the overall process in my opinion. None of the reloading manuals are complete though and I've even found information that I don't agree with. Finally, ask plenty of questions. The only dumb question is the one that isn't asked.
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I have had my Dillon 550 since 1985 and I have loaded a variety of pistol ammo with it. Mostly things for USPSA so 9mm, 9x21, 9x23, 38 super, .40, 45ACP, 38spl and .357 magnum.
it has been a very versatile press and turns out great ammo. To this day I can call up Dillon and tell them I need a part and they ship it out for free. Pretty cool
anyway 9x23. I loaded WIN brass, Fed or Win small rifle primers, I played with 115, 124 and 147, but ended up with 124JHP. They were accurate and I good performance out of my comp.
I believe my loads were mostly either Viht or WIN powders.
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Bert.... I am in 100% agreement with your comments on reloading. I also love Hornady equipment. I started out on a RCBS Rock Chucker which I still use along with a Hornady Projector and a newer AP with case feeder. I find the load accuracy with the Hornady to be better than all but weighed charges. R S
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Single stage should work on 500rds/mo? I'll start looking at Hornaday and Dillon but i'm a big fan of service after the sale. If you get a Hornaday can i use Dillon dies?
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Almost all the bigger manufacturers have a lifetime warranty on their reloading products. I've yet to pay for a replacement part from RCBS, Redding, Dillon or Hornady, so you won't go wrong with any of them.
The only problem with using Dillon dies on another press is the powder through expander. You have to have the powder measure mounted on the die to throw powder with it, or to expand case mouths. Other than that, almost all current production dies use a 7/8"x14 thread, so they will work with almost any currently made press.
I have die sets from all of the current manufacturers, plus some that went out of business long ago. The loading presses on my loading bench at the current time are two Hollywood Sr. presses, one Hornady LNL, one RCBS Rockchucker and a Magma Case Master Jr., which is used to uniform straight wall pistol cases.
Reloading is about the only hobby I know of where the manufacturers offer lifetime warranties, even if you're not the original purchaser.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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I got to thinking some more about this conversion and it dawned on me that the slide of my new 9mm Match has a different profile than that of the Classic II slide that came with my 9mm/22LR Combo. This might equate to different weights which in turn would effect the recoil spring needed to be used depending on which upper half was used for the conversion. So, I weighed each slide with the barrel and recoil spring removed. The Classic II slide weighs 10.96oz and the Match slide weighs 13.20oz. Therefore, all else being equal, the Match slide will provide more resistance to the recoil. Or to look at it another way, it will require a lighter recoil spring than the Classic II slide. Since it has more metal, my guess is that it will also be more durable than the Classic II slide. This obviously wouldn't matter for regular 9mm, but it might be important for 9x23. The bottom line is that slide weight is another reason to lean toward the Match if you're going to do this conversion.
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ReloaderFred,
So press and dies should be made by the same company? Would cut down on loading issues for a newbie. A real life time warranty is very cool in this day and time. I assume this equipment can be bought slightly used or would you even recomend that to a new loader?
Bret,
When i bought my 38S Match it came with the smaller sport tactical adj. rear sight. I then bought a 9mm Match conversion upper and it came with LPA adj. rear sights and 9mm cut into the top of the slide. Which way came on your 9mm Match? Does your Match have the new rails on it? My gun was made in the early spring and doesn't not have them. They could help a little with the recoil. What recoil spring do you think you will end up with?
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Mustang400,
You can mix and match your dies and press, since they all take the same threads. The only issue is the Dillon Powder Through Expander. What this does is expand the case mouth as it's dropping the powder charge, but you have to have the Dillon Powder Measure installed on top of the die for this to happen.
My suggestion would be to get an RCBS Rockchucker press. It's a single stage press that you will be able to hand down to your grandkids. Every bench should have a single stage press on it, anyway. Any brand of dies will work on the press, but I would suggest either RCBS, Lyman or Hornady dies.
You'll also need a powder measure and every company that makes reloading equipment makes a powder measure. My bench has 5 of them on it at the present time (2 Hornady, 2 Reddings, and a Belding & Mull). I gave away my Dillon powder measure quite some time ago, and I've got an old Hollywood on the shelf, plus another Redding.
You'll also need some sort of reloading scale, either balance beam or electronic. I have both, but have only been using the electronic of late.
You're also going to need a dial caliper if you don't already have one. They make both digital and mechanical. Both work well enough for bullet seating, etc., but for really precision work, you'd want a micrometer, but you don't really need one for simple loading chores.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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I got my upper back and the conversion looks great. The chamber looks perfectly smooth like it came that way from the factory and the added three dot sights look perfect. I am very pleased. I was also able to pick up some VihtaVuori 3N37 powder and Winchester small rifle primers. I just ordered a extra power recoil spring set from Wolff. Once the springs come in and I get some cartridges loaded, I'll finally be able to take this baby to the range. ;D
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I got my upper back and the conversion looks great. The chamber looks perfectly smooth like it came that way from the factory and the added three dot sights look perfect. I am very pleased. I was also able to pick up some VihtaVuori 3N37 powder and Winchester small rifle primers. I just ordered a extra power recoil spring set from Wolff. Once the springs come in and I get some cartridges loaded, I'll finally be able to take this baby to the range. ;D
Congratulations! 8)
I look forward to reading your Range Report! I like VihtaVouri Powders and have had very good luck with them! Unfortunately, they are no longer sold by any local dealers. I still have some on stock.
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When i got my 9x23 conversion back from Jim the first time, i used the small guide rod that that came with the 9mm Match upper conversion kit(smaller than the stock 38S guide rod) and the 38S spring. It ran 75rds of Winchester factory ammo without a hitch.
I'm cleaning the gun the next day and can not get the G/R and spring out of the slide. I walk away and come back at it for three days, it's not clearing the peanut! I'd already made arangements with Jim to fit another 9mm barrel to replace the one he coverted to 9x23. EAA never talks Drop-In. I now have to call him back and and he agree's to take the complete gun( he felt sorry for a mechanical pea brain). The 38S frame, 9mm slide with stuck 9x23 barrel in it, Henning Cone G/R, Wolffe 12-16lb springs, K9 & K38 mags, ammo and new 9mm barrel(needs fitting) all go in a box and mailed to Jim. It's on his bench along with Bret's upper.
Happy ending to this stupid story. Gun box returns on 10/5 and off to the range today. Jim recomended 18lb spring for the 9x23(16lb thru the brass(factory ammo) way to far. On the 9mm he liked the 10lb spring. He was inpressed with Henning's Cone guide rods. Lesson well learned for me, if i beef up the ammo other parts have to be upgraded.
The complete 38 Super gun,9x23 upper, 9mm barrel, stock K9, K38 mags, K38 mags modded with Henning H500,H580,H1410 pads and Mec-Gar 38Super-LF mags all went to the range. Fired 9mm, 38 Super, 38 Super/Comp and 9x23 Winchester, All went bang. Great day at the range! Four things i learned today: (1)- Henning Cone guide rod has enough ass to it to handle the 9x23 factory load (2)- H580 pad kit will load 21+1 (3)- Armscor 38Super ammo was just as accurate as Atlanta Arms & Ammo 38 S/C with Zero 125gr JHP Major load (4)- Witness Match 9x23 is one bad ass carry gun at 21+1.
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mustang400, thanks for the tip on the Henning guide rod. After comparing the design to the factory guide rod, I have no idea why Tanfoglio doesn't make them this way to begin with. So, I ordered one. Hopefully it will be here in short order along with my Woff XP recoil spring set.
I loaded 50rds of 9x23 today using VV 3N37 powder, Magtech 124gr FMJ bullets, Winchester 9x23 brass, and Winchester small rifle primers. At first I set the cartridge overall length to 1.300", but I had some trouble getting them to fit in the magazine. I seated the bullets a little deeper to 1.280" and they filled up the magazine just fine. Based on this it seems that a 124gr JHP would allow for the bullet to not be seated as deeply resulting in more case volume.
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Bret,
As you know i will not start reloading till the new year. It seems that the mags and gun like factory OAL(whatever that is?), i've had 0% feeding issues with the Q4304 JSP(125gr) factory ammo. The AA&A 38S/C with Zero JHP(125gr) has the same OAL as the 9x23 ammo again shot with out issues using my 38S slide and same mags.
I will send one of each so you could tear down and reverse engineer to their OAL if you think that might help?
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I will send one of each so you could tear down and reverse engineer to their OAL if you think that might help?
I really appreciate the offer, but it's not necessary. Determining the OAL for a particular cartridge-bullet combination is really pretty easy. I simply start with the maximum length that will fit in the magazine (1.280" in this case). I then remove the barrel and drop the cartridges in the chamber with the muzzle pointing down. I put a bit of pressure on the case head to make sure the cartridge is all the way in the chamber. Then I turn the barrel so the muzzle is facing up. If the cartridges fall out, then the bullets are not getting stuck in the lands and everything is good to go. If the cartridges all don't fall out, then the bullet profile is likely touching the lands some and the OAL will have to be shortened. That's it, pretty simple. Most of the time the OAL that the particular cartridge-bullet combination allows in the magazine will also work in the chamber, but it seems that CZ's can be an exception to this.
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please get back to us if you shoot this weekend.
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My Henning guide rod and Wolff springs arrived today. ;D I installed the new guide rod along with a 20lb recoil spring. The slide is definitely harder to pull back, but not too much so.
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I found most of my brass with the 18lb spring. With the 20lb should get it all, which means the slide is slamming the frame just about right.
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Success!
I was finally able to take my 9x23 Witness Match to the range today. It started with the 20lb Wolff recoil spring installed. Here's a picture before I started blasting.
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/663/preshooting.jpg)
I brought 100rds total. 50rds were of Magtech 124gr FMJ's over 6.8gr (10rds), 7.0gr (10rds), and (30rds) of VV 3N37. The other 50rds were of Hornady 124gr XTP JHP's over 7.0gr (10rds) and 7.2gr (40rds) of VV 3N37.
I started with 10rds of the 6.8gr VV 3N37 pushing the Magtech 124gr FMJ. Here's a picture of the result at about 15'.
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7541/first10shotgroup.jpg)
The cases seemed to eject pretty rapidly and there were no failures of any kind.
Pleased with my initial results and knowing that increased powder charge would increase the slide velocity (all else being equal), I decided to install the 22lb recoil spring. I then fired 10rds more of the same load with 7.0gr VV 3N37. Again, the cases ejected with plenty of velocity and there were no failures of any kind. I'd say that recoil was on par with a typical 40S&W pistol. The slide is obviously harder to pull back with the 22lb recoil spring, but it's not too difficult in my opinion. I went on to fire the remaining 80rds with no problems as all. Grouping was excellent. The Mec-Gar 38Super fed flawlessly.
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/8668/first50shots.jpg)
In the picture below, the lower left group is 20rds.
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2710/second50shots.jpg)
The only thing that I didn't like was that the trigger reset seems kind of weak. This doesn't have anything to do with the 9x23 conversion. We'll see what happens when I adjust the trigger because I have not attempted to do so yet.
(http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5325/postshooting.jpg)
The bottom line here is that this is an awesome conversion! Without a doubt I'd recommend Jim at Innovative Custom Guns. I'd also recommend the Henning guide rod and 22lb Wolff recoil spring. I can't think of a reason to go with a lighter recoil spring because the 22lb one still allows the cases to eject with plenty of velocity and distance. Heck, if Wolff made a 24lb recoil spring, I'd try it too.
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Congratulations and Good Shooting! I love it when things come together well! 8)
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seems to shoot like it came from the factory!
I'm going to have to try the 22lb spring in mine.
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I got started! Bought Hornaday Series IV, 3 die set for 9x23. It comes with Redemption Form for 100 free bullets($6.95 shipping). I assume i would check the box "9mm .355 115gr HP/XTP"??. I got the Dies from "Wholesale Hunter" who also carries the cheapest Win. 9x23 ammo at $27/box/10 box case.
MidWay had a sale on Winchester 9x23 brass $23/100, got the last 3 bags. The rest of the Net wanted $31-$38/bag. Bret got 9 bags a couple months ago for a little less. I wonder why M-Way markets 9x23 brass at this price point when everyone else wants Stupid $.
Since i'f headed down the Hornady path, Using the KISS principle for myself, what Hornady press would work best for a newbee reloader? Only need to reload 75rds/week, slow is good. Simple is better. Single stage --yes. Will go electronic on scale&measurer. This will be the only caliber(die) i reload at this time, maybe 38S/C late next year(2nd die). Is there a Powder and JHP bullet that could be used for both if i loaded to MAJOR on the 38S/C?
Will i have to resize once fire brass from my owm Match fully supported barrel using Win. brass?
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I assume i would check the box "9mm .355 115gr HP/XTP"??.
You don't have to select bullets that will work with the die set that you bought. I always select the most expensive bullets that I reload, so that means the 40S&W 155gr XTP's for me. Since 9x23 is the only cartridge that you'll be reloading for, the 115gr XTP's are the bullets to get.
MidWay had a sale on Winchester 9x23 brass $23/100, got the last 3 bags. The rest of the Net wanted $31-$38/bag. Bret got 9 bags a couple months ago for a little less. I wonder why M-Way markets 9x23 brass at this price point when everyone else wants Stupid $.
Score! Who knows why Midway does it that way? Regardless, I don't object. ;D
Since i'f headed down the Hornady path, Using the KISS principle for myself, what Hornady press would work best for a newbee reloader? Only need to reload 75rds/week, slow is good. Simple is better.
That would be thier Lock-N-Load Classic single stage press. You might consider their Lock-N-Load Classic Kit as it will have most every tool you'll need. You'll still need a scale, a set of dial calipers, and a tumbler for cleaning your cases. FYI, the hand priming tool works much better than the press based priming tool.
Will i have to resize once fire brass from my owm Match fully supported barrel using Win. brass?
You'll always resize new or fired brass before reloading it.
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The 115gr bullets are the 100 free ones you get with the die( need original dated '11 reciept+original UPC, cut from box ). I'd like to move to a JHP 124-130gr that i could use i both the 9x23 and 38S/C when i get that die next year.
Just pulled out the Hornady Free ammo form and they will give me 500 bullets if i get the LOCL-N-LOAD CLASSIC KIT. Is the Auto Charge system a good buy for a newbee?. Do they work well? Another 100 free bullets if you buy their Auto Charge. Thats 700 bullets, maybe they will swap for a heavier bullet. If i buy the new pieces every couple of weeks, i think i can con myself into thinking this was a cheap $ start-up.
At $18/box savings over store bought, there is a light at the end. Now will have to shoot more and talk less. I think this is going to turn into a pretty cool hobby.
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Is the Auto Charge system a good buy for a newbee?. Do they work well?
Typically when loading pistol cartridges, once things are setup, most people will verify about 1 of 5 or 1 of 10 powder charges on a scale. A scale like the autocharge is typically used for weighing larger charges for rifle cartridges. I'm not saying that you couldn't use it, but given the time that it will take, I think it would slow things down for you. Another factor is that you don't want to be pulling the handle on your press to seat a bullet at the same time that autocharge is pouring powder. Personally, I charge about ten cases, seat the bullets in them, and then repeat the process. The bottom line is that I'd recommend a small electronic scale. I'd definitely suggest one that you can plug in as changing batteries is a pain.
BTW, I forgot to tell you that you'll also need to buy a 9mm taper crimp die. We can have long discussions about the art of taper crimping, but the bottom line is that unlike a roll crimp, a taper crimp's purpose is not to hold the bullet. It's purpose is to simply remove the remaining flare from the belling operation. Understand this and you'll be ahead of 4 out of 5 reloaders out there.
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Classic Kit comes with:
single-stage press
Lock-n-Load Powder Measure
electronic scale
Hornady reloading book
three Lock-n-Load die bushing
primer catcher
positive priming system
hand held priming tool
universal reloading block
chamfering and deburring tool
primer tuning plate
case lube
Will look for the 9mm taper crimp die.
thanks for the help today
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Starline has 38 TJ brass for sale $153.50/1000. How does this brass differ from their 38 Super Comp and Winchester's 9x23 brass? I thought the TJ brass was really Starline's 9x23.
Where does 9MM Super Comp brass fit in?
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According to Starline's website, the 38 TJ is "Very similar to the .38 Super Comp but with modified extractor groove geometry to aide in full length resizing. Used mainly in competition raceguns."
They have 9mm Super Comp listed as being 9x23, so I'd guess that it's the closest thing to Winchester 9x23.
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Did i read some where that the Winchester 9x23 brass was set up to load no more than a 130gr bullet and that the Starline was sized to handle up to 147 gr bullets?