The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CLUB CZ97 => Topic started by: docargyle on June 19, 2012, 05:54:01 PM
-
After reviewing the numerous threads on this great forum and having more 1911s than I care to admit to, I have decided to take the plunge and let Schmeky have his way with my brand new 97B (with some assistance from the fine folks at the CZ Custom Shop for some of the parts and Accurate Plating and Weaponry for the stippling and chroming).
Now that the home equity line of credit has been established ;) below are the mods he will be performing as of 06/19/12:
1 Dust Cover shortened, corners radiused, re-engrave SN
2 Bore and slot slide for E.Brown blue O/S match 1911 bushing
3 Slide stop pin cut flush and end beveled
4 Undercut trigger guard, blend and smooth a la 1911
5 Break all sharp edges
6 Slide, release, safety, trigger to retain OEM polycoat
7 SP-01 slide stop
8 Stipple front and back strapsof frame
9 Refinish frame, barrel bushing, barrel, Steve Bedair SS guide rod and CGW slotted screws in HC
10 End of barrel cut flush to barrel bushing with eleven degree crown at muzzle
11 CGW Race hammer kit
12 CGW SPGKI spring kit
13 CGW floating trigger pin (TR-PIN)
14 CGW slotted SS grips screws (4)
15 CZ Custom Tactical rear sight
16 CZ Custom or CGW Dawson Precision F/O front sight (#10407)
17 CZ SAO trigger with pre-travel
18 CZ75 Extended Ambi-safety LHS #10225
19 Steve Bedair SS guide rod
20 VZ Grips Tactical Diamonds Black Full Size G10
21 Full action polish, tune, install all the above, function test
22 Add one more happy customer to his list of growing clients
I will provide updates as Schmeky updates me or this thread. And of ocurse, any changes to the above list will be identified as well if and when they occur.
If ya'll ask nice eough, he might even be talked into providing pics as he progresses towards the finished product, i.e., work of art.
So it looks like Christmas will be coming in August or September for me this year!
-
Sounds great! I've had similar thoughts rolling around in the back of my head, but am probably more like 6-9 months away from starting the project. You hit most of the ideas I had thought of except the replacement bushing. Should turn a reported tack driver into a super tack driver. The other passing idea I had was maybe adding the Novak light rail if it would blend with the 97 frame. Haven't had a chance to ask anybody yet.
So I will officially start the begging process. David please, please, please post some pics as you go :)
-
I can't wait to see the final photos. I'm sure it will be an inspiration for a lot of people here. Might finally kick me over the edge to order one. O0
-
I want to thank docargyle for giving me this opportunity. I think I may be more excited to get started than he is. Yes, I will post pics of the project from an out of the box stock CZ-97, to the finished project.
BTW,
I have several NIB CZ-97's, as well as some other CZ models enroute I am going to be building and posting on my website on a "CZ's For Sale" page.
-
This is the starting point.
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Gile97001.jpg)
-
Here is the slide after boring for the new Match 1911 bushing. It was indicated perfectly on -0- before boring.
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Gile97002.jpg)
Here is the stock 97 barrel before being re-crowned.
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Gile97003.jpg)
Here is the same barrel after cutting the new crown to 11 degrees. Still have to finish lap this cut, but even in the "rough" it turned out beautifully.
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Gile97006.jpg)
-
Docargyle, would you mind giving us a price break down of all the parts and work that is being done to your gun? I'm looking to order a 97B for myself within the next month, and I'm debating on having it sent directly to either CZC or CGW to have much of the work done that you're getting, and I'm just curious as to your grand total (roughly) so that I could approximate for what I'm looking to get done. Thanks in advance, and she's looking great with the pics that Schmeky has posted thus far! I'm anxious to see the final result.
-
miataeric1,
I currently have 3 - CZ-97's in stock. These will be built into my CZ-97"BE" series (bullseye) since they will be accurized, smoothed, and tuned to the n'th degree. I am awaiting my new firing pins and some tooling. They will also feature a low-profile fully adjustable serrated rear target sight and the customer can select a black serrated front or F/O for the front.
These will the ultimate range or bullseye competition CZ-97's, shooting with (or outsthooting) 1911's that cost substantially more.
-
Will the trigger reset also be adjusted to minimize reset distance?
-
Can not wait to see the finished product!
-
miataeric1,
I currently have 3 - CZ-97's in stock. These will be built into my CZ-97"BE" series (bullseye) since they will be accurized, smoothed, and tuned to the n'th degree. I am awaiting my new firing pins and some tooling. They will also feature a low-profile fully adjustable serrated rear target sight and the customer can select a black serrated front or F/O for the front.
These will the ultimate range or bullseye competition CZ-97's, shooting with (or outsthooting) 1911's that cost substantially more.
The guns you're getting ready to build do indeed sound incredible, but I've got a few certain things that I really want. First, I intend on starting with a glossy blue gun, then I wanted to have a F/O front site and CZC tactical rear site (with tritium inserts) installed, custom hammer/trigger job done, polish all the usual pieces inside, possibly spring work (depending on professional recommendations), your accurizing services probably, and possibly a different trigger or reach reduction down the line after I'd had some time seeing how I fit the gun. My primary intentions for the gun would be home defense and range fun. I'm still a pretty new shooter and I don't have the time or means at the moment to get into any competition shooting or anything like that. I pretty much just want to improve the basic gun and have it made "special" just for me. The glossy blue is a definite must-have though.
I'm currently out to sea (in the Navy) for at least another month, so I'm just saving and trying to plan exactly what I want, all while figuring out roughly what it's going to cost me in the end. I'm not so much worried about how much, just how much I need to have to get it done ;)
-
This thread made me drool..........CGW working on your 97B, dayum!
HTC Vision on Tapatalk 2
-
miataeric1,
I have a glossy blue 97 in my inventory. It is used, but mint. On the sights, I would suggest the MeproLites. I have installed dozens of these and they are well made and fit well. The Reach Reduction for the 97 will transform the long reach of a stock set-up and the new extended 97 FP's I have on order will make the DA quite light.
And thanks for serving our country, I support you 100%.
-
Schmeky, PM sent.
-
Frame has been shortened, finished, and all sharp edges blended and radiused. It's off to the chrome plating shop tomorrow. Customer has added stippling to the front and backstrap to be performed by the plating shop. Once the frame gets back, this will move quickly to completion. I have been informed my new rear sight prototype is ready for pick-up and inspection (prior to making an initial batch). Hopefully, I can talk docargyle into using one. I'll post a pic of the new sight very soon.
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Gile97Machined003.jpg)
-
I feel like a 4 year old just before Christmas! The pics are definitely confirming I made the right decision to go with Schmecky.
-
Ok, I am envious now (in the good sense!).
Excellent progress. Would love to see what the final product looks like!
-
Frame is at AP&W for chrome plating and stippling. They indicate a 4-6 week turn around. So we wait . . . .
-
Is it August 13 yet?
Not that I'm counting or anything ;)
-
Is it August 13 yet?
Not that I'm counting or anything ;)
I know the feeling! I've just got to get the rest of my dead presidents rounded up so David can start on my build. I am still looking forward to seeing yours as it's getting all the cosmetic work done that I am not. I'm curious about the grips that you listed in your original build specs. I talked to David and he said he didn't foresee the VZ grips for the 97's. Do you have another source perhaps?
-
In an email dated 06/16/12, David mentioned he had the VZ grips but had not listed them yet on his website. I'm sure if you talk to him he can get you set up.
-
I have a stock of VZ grips, however I have not tried them on a 97 yet. Not sure if they will fit or can be made to properly fit. Normally CZ-75 grips like VZ's won't work, but if I can do some milling or even add an aluminum spacer to the edges of the grips, they "may" work. I'll check and see.
-
I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread. I'm excited to see how this turns out!
-
I just heard from Schmeky! Chromed frame and related parts back from AP&W and look "fantastic".
Should be another week or two at the outset before this is completely transformed and back in my hands.
I will let Schmeky provide pics and his updates/observations as I don't really want to steal his thunder any further.
Christmas in August.
I can dig it!
-
Sounds Awesome! I'm saving as we speak.
-
1911 bushing has been fitted and the barrel locks up so tight, it's just like a new Les Baer. It's going to have to shoot in to loosen up. The custom hard chromed frame makes the factory polycoat look out of place, so the slides going to get a facelift.
My new "E-Z Drift" rear sights are almost there, but I won't hold up this project excessively if they are not ready soon. This is going to be, IMHO, the finest and most accurate CZ-97 on the planet. Hats off to the customer that will only accept the best.
This is the kind of stuff I love to do. Updated pics are coming.
-
Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics!
(Even if it has the blem'd slide on it....)
The suspense is bleep near killing me!!!!!
:o
-
Sounds like a killer job please pardon the pun
I know you will have a great pistol when all is said and done......
-
I had to bead blast the slide, then to do it right, you must blast the slide again with aluminun oxide. Had to change the media in my blast cabinet. Then I am going to apply a 1st coat of phosphoric acid then a top coat of Gun Kote satin black. Should look great with the matte rounds and brushed flats of the HC'ed frame.
I'll post some pics when the slide is done.
-
Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!
Did I mention I was excited?
Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!Oh boy!
-
docargyle,
Are you excited? ;D
-
docargyle,
Are you excited? ;D
Heck, I'm excited for him! Can't wait to see the updated pics David!
-
Me too!:))
-
Is this one of those times it's okay to drool?
-
Too late!
-
Schmeky,
Darn tootin I'm excited! What was your first clue? ;)
Where are those dadburn pics??????
I need eyecandy! 8)
-
I plan on applying the finish to the slide today, then after it bakes, I can post some pics. I have been extremely busy as of late. Seems there are a few folks that like some of my stuff :o
-
Preliminary build pic. I just took the slide out of the curing oven and it turned out much better than the OEM polycoat. Blasted the slide to white, pre-heated to 120 degrees F to remove all moisture from the pores, sprayed a coat of phosphoric acid, then 5 dusting coats of Gun Kote. Now it looks right. Will finish up the internals first of next week. Sights are going to be the last item. This is going to be one super-sweet puppy.
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/001.jpg)
-
Oh my. Some lucky fella is getting a SWEET gun soon ;D
-
David,
The stippling on the front/back straps doesn't look too aggressive. Is it just the angle or lighting? How is it in person? I think the overall look of the pistol is awesome! The black trigger and chromed hammer are great accents. What color did he go with for the safety and slide stop?
-
WOW....that is one sexy CZ. 8)
-
OMG! This is turning out even better than I had hoped. David, you are my hero!
-
I will save pictures from this thread, and tell my children this is what CZs turn into..we can name this one optimus prime...
-
I will finish this project next week. I am not going to delay the completion due to the new CGW rear sights not being available yet. My new extended FP's for 97 have finally arrived and the extended manual safety is on order.
-
I absolutely cannot wait to see the finished product! You are an artist, schmeky!
-
This is why I wanted Schmeky to work on this particular 97.
Drool doesn't stick to chrome or polycoat. ;D
-
Almost finished. I am installing my new E-Z Drift rear sight and I will be regulating the F/O front on Friday. I will post pics, with some close-ups over the weekend.
Quite possibly the finest CZ-97 on the planet.
-
:-\ I don't know about the rest of you, but these next fewdays are going to draaaaaaaagggggggg until I have this beauty in my hands!!!!!!
And the anticipation is killing me!!!! :o
I can't believe how many hits this thread has since it started (over 2700!!). Wonder if we can break 3000 before Sunday? ;D evening?
-
This one is finished. I'll post pics tomorrow morning, I hope my photos can do this one justice. True mechanical art combined with superb function; several trick items not on anything else.
-
As promised, pics, please notice the extreme low profile front sight, it's only 5.1mm's in total height:
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Custom97004.jpg)
Pistol with sight pusher, adjustment wrenchs and barrel bushing tool:
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Custom97006.jpg)
Custom fully enclosed F/O front sight:
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Custom97009.jpg)
Front barrel with bushing and 11 degree cut target barrel:
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Custom97011.jpg)
Custom SS guide rod:
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j367/schmeky1/Custom97014.jpg)
-
That 97 looks great. I really like the duo tone look - very clean and sharp looking gun. :) Bet it shoots even better too ;)
-
David,
I really think you have out done yourself! As I said when you first mentioned this project, you covered everything I could think of doing to 97B to "make it perfect" and then some. The work on the business end of the gun is amazing. The bushing/guide rod turned out beautifully. And the sights look the part.
I finally got to shoot my refinished 75 Shadow this weekend after a two month vacation away from home. I spent most of the time shooting my HK USP45 Tactical which really grew my love for the 45ACP, and my USP9. After shooting the 75 Shadow again, t didn't take long for me to forget about the HK's and start dreaming about a worked on 97B. Just in time for you to put this pictures up.
Certainly time for me to get more pennies into the gun jar so I can get one headed my way (finished in CeraPlate to match the 75 Shadow ::))
-
Looks great! How do you like that full size safety pad? I had problems with mine stabbing me in the side without trimming it. Did you bead blast the front strap to get the texture?
-
FREAKING ASESOME!!!! I CANNOT WAIT TO GET MY HANDS ON THIS BEAUTY!!!!!!
SCHMEKY'S MY HERO!!!!
COME ON FEDEX....COME ON FEDEX.....COME ON FEDEX....COME ON FEDEX.....COME ON FEDEX....COME ON FEDEX.....COME ON FEDEX....COME ON FEDEX.....COME ON FEDEX....COME ON FEDEX.....COME ON FEDEX....COME ON FEDEX.....COME ON FEDEX....COME ON FEDEX.....
-
The front and rear straps are stippled by Accurate Plating and Weaponry (APW), the folks that did the hard chrome. The extended manual safety was extremely wide and I cut it down. It's up to the owner to determine if this suites his tastes.
What you really can't see is the inside, which looks as good as the outside. I want to thank docargyle for his patience in allowing me additional time to get some of my new E-Z Drift sights in. He got the very first one off the CNC.
I am working on another CZ-97"BE" that I will finish today and post some pics on a new thread. This one will look like a "normal" CGW customized 97.
-
Schmeky,
If the next CGW 97 BE is "normal", what name should we give mine? ???
I'm open to all suggestions from the forum viewers.
-
How about the 97 CDP? Custom Defense Pistol. And yes I am saving my money for one to use in IDPA. I love it!
Jason O0
-
CZ 9711...Exclusive Edition...
-
docargyle,
U be da' PLATINUM guy ;)
-
The 97 BA
Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk 2
-
If the next CGW 97 BE is "normal", what name should we give mine?
"" UUMM" I think BADAZZ work work just right.
Brett
-
Schmeky has shipped the 'CGW 9711 Platinum'. I will range test on Sunday. In the meantime, I will provide a first impressions write up sometime between this Wed and Sunday.
Why is time just draggggiiiiinnnggggg? Could it be because I am getting a one of a kind 97? ;)
I wonder if this thread will surpass 4000 hits?
-
docargyl, you are one lucky dude...
@schmeky, how is the trigger pull compared to custom 1911s, and reset. Any 'special' work in that, specially reset and pretravel, on this pistol?
-
All,
I received my "CGW 9711 Platinum" edition today.
First impression.....OMG AND WOW!!!! ;D The pictures Schmey posted earlier don't do this pistol justice!
Shortening the dust cover has definitely improved the overall balance. The grip stippling (a nod of the hat to Bob Cogan and the fine folks at APW!) with thinner grips and improved sight picture (thanks to the CGW rear sight and Dawson Precision front sight!!) makes this CZ a natural pointer. Racking the slide feels like it is on tiny little ball bearings, that's how smooth it works.
I will range test this Sunday after which I will post another follow up with pics.
Schmeky, I don't if you can ever outdo yourself on this platform again, but I for one cannot ask for anything more. You sir, are a true gunsmith and artist!
-
All,
I received my "CGW 9711 Platinum" edition today.
First impression.....OMG AND WOW!!!! ;D The pictures Schmey posted earlier don't do this pistol justice!
Shortening the dust cover has definitely improved the overall balance. The grip stippling (a nod of the hat to Bob Cogan and the fine folks at APW!) with thinner grips and improved sight picture (thanks to the CGW rear sight and Dawson Precision front sight!!) makes this CZ a natural pointer. Racking the slide feels like it is on tiny little ball bearings, that's how smooth it works.
I will range test this Sunday after which I will post another follow up with pics.
Schmeky, I don't if you can ever outdo yourself on this platform again, but I for one cannot ask for anything more. You sir, are a true gunsmith and artist!
Glad yours finally made it to you and I'm sure it will be well worth the wait when you get to the range tomorrow! You forgot to add that David is also a gentleman and truly ethical businessman! Mine should be shipping on Monday, and she won't be quite the looker that yours is, but she will still be a purdy machine in her glossy blue finish. I now know your angst in waiting, lol. Will be looking forward to your range report! Congrats and safe shooting!!!
-
Took the CGW 9711 Platinum to the range yesterday afteronnon and ran 100 rounds through her. 50 were 230 grain factory FMJ and 50 reloads of 200 grain LSWC over 4.2 of Clays.
As expected, the 200 grainers were one hole at 15 yds. The 230s printed just below the 200s. I am very happy with this set up. If someone can advise how to post pics, I will upload them.
-
Is it running OK? I know initially you indicated some feeding and firing issues in an e-mail. I am very interested in this pistol running as good as it looks.
-
David,
It ran perfect! Only one fail to fire and that was because the slide was not fully into battery (reload). Once I can get some time away from work and load some rounds to the specs you shared with me yesterday, I am going to get back to the range and run some more. Will you be OK with the imepnding hurricane?
-
I'm fine, I live in the northern hill country. I want you to know I'll take care of your 97 completely at my expense if there are any issues.
If you need any reloading help, let me know.
-
Impressive work.
-
Wow simply gorgeous!
Im interested to see how the SN was remarked on the frame, Is it pretty subtle?
-
Sorry all... work's has been really crazy. I finally got around to taking some some pics of the work Schmecky did to my 97 to make it a "Platinum". If someone can advise how to post them here on this thread, please let me know.
Thanks.
-
Sorry all... work's has been really crazy. I finally got around to taking some some pics of the work Schmecky did to my 97 to make it a "Platinum". If someone can advise how to post them here on this thread, please let me know.
Thanks.
Go to http://photobucket.com/ and create a free account. Upload your pics there. They will give you a link to post here to show off your pics.
-
Thanks for that, let's hope this works.....
http://s1308.photobucket.com/albums/s603/docargyle1/?action=view¤t=P8260007_zpsb16c2b2e.jpg
http://s1308.photobucket.com/albums/s603/docargyle1/?action=view¤t=P8260007_zpsb16c2b2e.jpg
http://s1308.photobucket.com/albums/s603/docargyle1/?action=view¤t=P8260007_zpsb16c2b2e.jpg
http://s1308.photobucket.com/albums/s603/docargyle1/?action=view¤t=P8260007_zpsb16c2b2e.jpg
-
DROOL!!! :'( that is amazing
-
That is one sweet looking piece ya got. I still have one in lay-away a 97B-stock-Love yours-Very Nicely done!!!! ;D ;D ;D
-
Yep! Schmeky be the man!
-
miataeric1,
I currently have 3 - CZ-97's in stock. These will be built into my CZ-97"BE" series (bullseye) since they will be accurized, smoothed, and tuned to the n'th degree.
Accurized??? Hmmmm Here is the first 8 shots ever fired from my 97BD, and the first time I ever shot a 97. This is at 30 ft. How do you plan to improve on this? Not trying to be a smart a.. here, but Id be scared to try.
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h405/fredfournier/cc67043ce5e259e872f9a75bfea36bae.jpg)
Now, my 1911, yes, that could be improved. Same distance, same day, same nothing special 230 grain bulk ammo
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h405/fredfournier/ea04e2b94c625cfc9cf0dad4439281b1.jpg)
-
Imagine all the rounds in a single hole . . . . .
-
Imagine all the rounds in a single hole . . . . .
Ok, now you're making me drool :P
-
schmeky, have you ever thought about doing a slide reduction on a 97? I own a 97B and a Witness steel in .45; the slide is so much taller on the CZ. It seems like there's plenty of fat to be trimmed at the top of the slide, although the square chamber area might be a problem. I guess it would be a lot of work to basically turn it into a fat grip Witness...
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa457/jjdurso/Custom97011.jpg)
-
Really nice work Schmeky. 8) Like the modification to accept the 1911 bushing. I think a SAO 97b may be in my future, may have to look you up.
-
schmeky-
That is a beautiful gun! What do the mods cost?
-A
-
jjdurso,
To answer your question (sorry for the delayed answer), let me throw this at you. With the 97 slide mounted in a vise, and 4" of the barrel sticking out of the vise unsupported, you can "bend" or deflect the slide .020" from side to side. That's a lot, but nothing to worry about. I would not want to reduce the rigidty of the slide significantly by removing the amount of metal you indicate.
amygdala,
This one, less the cost of the pistol, was "around" $1,400.00 +/-.
-
dang...just, dang
-
Wow!, I've got a pretty cool lookin' 97 myself but this sucker floats my boat. Great work!!!! Now maybe I better get another 97 and start over.
-
Why bob the full-length dust cover? I thought those full length rails contributed to the accuracy of this monster, in conjunction with the slide riding down inside the rails and screw-in bushing?
-
Slide rails and slide rail fit have the least affect on accuracy. The screw in bushing is actually quite loose once installed.
-
Docargyle, would you mind giving us a price break down of all the parts and work that is being done to your gun? I'm looking to order a 97B for myself within the next month, and I'm debating on having it sent directly to either CZC or CGW to have much of the work done that you're getting, and I'm just curious as to your grand total (roughly) so that I could approximate for what I'm looking to get done. Thanks in advance, and she's looking great with the pics that Schmeky has posted thus far! I'm anxious to see the final result.
+1
-
schmecky,
please explain so me (and any others/me being new to handguns) why does rail fit have least effect on accuracy? if that is true,, than WHAT does have greatest impact on accuracy?
respectfully,
kevin
-
why does rail fit have least effect on accuracy?
Because in the time it takes for the bullet to leave the barrel, the slide's movement is somewhere between almost nothing and nothing.
WHAT does have greatest impact on accuracy?
Barrel and barrel fit.
-
The best thing I can tell you is to read Jerry Kuhnhausen's 1911 Manuals, Volumes 1 & 2. Any decent smith has to read these cover to cover, and use these for building bullseye grade 1911's.
Just a snippet, but barrels don't lock up in frames, per se, they lock up in the slide. The barrels muzzle, upper barrel lugs, and breech lock up in the slide, not "in" the frame. Also, sights are mounted on the slide, not on the frame.
This is all in the Kuhnhausen manuals.
-
ok,
please bear with my education. But if you have an excessive amount of 'clearance' in slide and frame fit, won't the slide potentially 'end up' in a different position and thereby creating a accuracy issue from slide in different final location/prior to next shot than previous.
thank you for taking the time to explain.
respectfully,
kevin
-
Kevin,
Good question easy answer, which is actually answered in my prior post. Since the barrel locks up in the slide and sights are on the slide, the slide can shift (albeit very slightly) and vary in its position on the frame rail w/o adversely affecting accuracy. But remember, the barrel has to lock up precisely and consistently in the slide. Also the sights are on the slide, not the frame, so your sighting plane is consistent.
So even though your slide may move on the frame, the barrel is locked on the same plane within the slide and sighted the same way. So even if the slide is not consistent on the frame, the barrel lock up and sighting plane are. The frame/slide fit is only responsible for the final 5% of a pistols true accuracy. In fact, at lock up, the only thing touching the barrel outside of the slide is the slide stop pin. The barrel does not lock up on the frame.
To proof this, I have a Chinese 1911 Norinco. The slide frame fit is loose and rattles pretty bad. Out of the box at 25 yards, it would group around 2.5-3.0 inches from a rest. I installed a Kart Match barrel and bushing and this one is practically perfect on the lock up. I went back with the same ammo (and same loose slide frame fit) and it shot a .75" 25 yard group.
This is why Kuhnhausen's books are considered the 1911 Bible, so to speak.
-
But if you have an excessive amount of 'clearance' in slide and frame fit, won't the slide potentially 'end up' in a different position... creating a accuracy issue from slide in different final location/prior to next shot than previous.
IF the slide ends up in an ever-so-slightly different position relative to the frame, no, that doesn't in and of itself affect accuracy because you don't aim from the frame. You aim from the upper. ;)
Take a pistol. Unload, clear chamber, make safe. Remove the slide from the frame. Put the frame aside. The upper assembly you're still holding -- THAT is what launches the bullet. It's the quality and fit of pieces in that assembly that affects accuracy.
The movement of slide on frame ejects spent casings and loads new rounds.
-
To proof this, I have a Chinese 1911 Norinco...
I was going to say something similar. I've fired an old 1911 that rattled like a jar of marbles but was dead-on-balls accurate. And I've fired an expensive, super-snug 1911 that didn't want to fire tight with any ammo.
-
The upper assembly you're still holding -- THAT is what launches the bullet. It's the quality and fit of pieces in that assembly that affects accuracy
That's absolutely correct. The only exception is frame mounted sighting devices, in this case, the slide must be fitting tightly to realize the accuracy potential of the tightly fitted slide components.
This is why a reputable 1911 smith won't recommend slide to frame tightening UNLESS you have addressed the sloppy lock-up in the slide and barrel first. Even then, the money you spend to tighten the slide/frame is a diminishing return on a cost vs result ratio.
-
schmeky,
How about this?
If the slide to frame fit is quite loose, wouldn't the static location of the slide stop pin, in relation to the variable slide/barrel location cause some varying tension at the lower lug?
Is there enough play in the lower lug to barrel fit to compensate?
:D
-
JonNC,
No. Think of the barrel as being supported by 3 "legs", the muzzle (1), the rear of the breech and upper lugs (2) and the lower barrel lug (3). Now think of a stool with 3 legs. It is always solid, even on an uneven floor. So it's not the floor (or in this case the pistols frame) that makes the barrel stable, it's the way it's supported, in this case with 3 legs.
All the lower barrel lug can do on a slide that moves from side to side is experience lateral changes in position on the slide stop pin and lower lug. However, the lateral changes do not affect the way the slide stop pushes up or positions the barrel in the slide. It simply can't.
On a 1911, this is regulated by the 2 lower lugs and how they ride on the slide stop. On a CZ, the barrel is cammed into full lock up by the kidney shaped one piece lower lug.
-
And thus endeth the lesson!
Thanks schmeky!
-
thank you all!
my education lesson continuous! handguns so different than my usual interest.. SxS high quality shotguns! double trigger man here! an all that!
anyway, thank you so much, helps me understand why I love my CZ's so much! and how Schmecky's upgrades are so helpful with trigger and yes, someday I hope to corral a 97 to add to the stable with CGW upgrades.
-
Hey Schemky,
One day soon you will be getting mine to perform some Cajum Magic. I'll have to find another 97b first. I don't know how I will be able to be without one.