The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => Compact CZ 75s => Topic started by: feed-the-monkey on November 12, 2001, 11:54:31 AM
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Glad I found this list. I just called CZ-usa to order some new parts. I had been meaning for some time to call to get a armourers manual and new grips. However I was pushed into this morning.
This past weekend I went to a defensive drills practice and a bowling pin shoot. during both days I had successive failures to extract. During the defensive drills I really didn't get the chance to examine the malf. because I had to clear them quickly. However I do know that the empty casings were still in the chamber while a new round was trying to load. Heck I had more reliability with my Charles Daly Officers 1911 on Saturday!
On Sunday I did a bowling pin shoot with my compact and my 97b. Once again I had problems with the compact. It did the same thing. It also caused a stovepipe on the last round I fired (not the last round in the mag).
So I called CZ-USA to order a new extractor and spring. I think I talked to a guy named Mike. He asked how many rounds I had through the gun, and I told him about 700 probably. He said to remove the extractor and spring and clean it very well. Said that a problem with this gun design is that carbon will build up on the extractor and cause it to have less tension on the rim of the casing. I ordered a new extractor ($13something) and spring (didn't ask about cost) anyways just in case I need it. At least I can bring them with me to matches etc if there are future problems.
However before purchasing this gun, I had not heard of any such design problem. All guns get dirty, but I would not have thought 700 rounds would start causing a malfunction in a combat/military pistol. I've shot over 1000 rounds easily during classes I've took and have never cleaned the Beretta I used with zero malfunctions all weekend.
So to you compact owners (and I guess fullsize too?) they reccommend removing and cleaning the ejector every 300 rounds! So go get yourself a pin punch and have at it!!!
Also my very top pin that holds the mag retention spring (or whatever that big long piece of steel is called) was always falling out when I was cleaning the gun. He said to lightly smack one end with a hammer to deform it, then insert. That should hold it in better.
Also they had rubber compact grips in stock for only $18! I got a set of those on the way.
So my question to you... anyone else having ejection problems? Or do you all clean more than me? :-)
If I'm going to need to punch this roll pin out every 300 rounds, how many times can it be removed and reused before I need to replace it?
Thanks!
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Hello, Mr. Monkey:
I have had very similar problems with my CZ75B (.40S&W) pistol. When shooting RELOADS (I reload my own), I have had a few failures to extract/eject with this gun. When it first started happening, I called Mike at CZ-USA, and he told me pretty much the same thing as he told you. He sent me a new extractor and extractor spring, and told me how to install it. I did.
But after a while, when shooting some more reloads, the failure(s) recurred.
This type of failure, mind you, has never occurred when shooting FACTORY loads, or when shooting reloads with BRAND NEW BRASS. It only happens when I shoot reloads in brasses cases which have already been reloaded at least once. Did you mention you were shooting reloads, too?
I bought 500 brand new Starline brass in .40S&W, to reload, and as I mentioned, the problem has not recurred using the brand new brass.
Now I'm thinking about maybe trading this gun (full-size) in on a compact model, as I have a CCW permit and it's pretty bleep hard to carry a full-size CZ around concealed. Maybe I'll shoot it some more first, just to see if the jam happens again.
Mike did tell me to clean behind the extractor, and to actually remove the extractor and spring after every 300 or 400 rounds, to clean in behind it thoroughly. Well, this is too much like work for me. Maybe CZ should have designed this system differently. It certainly doesn't happen with my other pistols (i.e., SIG, Glock, Beretta, Hi-Power, Ruger, etc.).
Gluck Haben,
Dr. Lecter
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I was using factory S&B (it's even Chech made) ammo. I am pretty dissapoited, but I guess for the price there had to be one hitch with this gun. It will certainly work for training and the Pin shoots. However I think I'll trust my life to a different brand that doesn't require removing a pin every 300 rounds to clean. As I've stated I've put over 1000 (and probably more) of rounds through a Beretta 92 before cleaning with zero problems.
However I am glad that at least they admitted to it being a problem and gave the solution. At $13 for the most expensive part, the extractor, cleaning and replacing the parts will just be a PITA and should not be expensive. At least now we know why they don't want to warranty them! They'd be shipping out 100s of spares a day.
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I have had absolutely no problems of any kind with my Compact. I also clean all my firearms after each session at the bench. I have always done this, even though some people say that some guns should be 100% reliable even though caked in sludge and filth. Maybe this is why my guns work perfectly. I don't wish to criticize, because I do see people that work with me who don't clean on a regular basis, and thier Glocks, Berettas and SIGs work fine, but I continue to keep my firearms clean and oiled. As for punching out the extractor pin and spring every 300 rounds, I have never heard this. I have'nt had to with the Compact, and my clone has had 7000 or 8000 (lost count!) rounds without ever having to do that!
Anyone else know anything about this?
Dave
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>I also clean all my firearms after each session at the bench.
So do I. Except for weekends where I shoot on Friday night or Sat and know I'll be shooting again Sunday. The larger problem is while taking a couple day class. Sometimes you can go through 800-1000 rounds a day (of course that is a lot)
>even though some people say that some guns should be
>100% reliable even though caked in sludge and filth.
Am I one of those people. I think it is a good indicator of a well designed firearm.
>As for punching out the extractor pin and spring every 300 >rounds, I have never heard this. I have'nt had to with the >Compact, and my clone has had 7000 or 8000 (lost count!) >rounds without ever having to do that!
Interesting. Wonder if the clone (EAA?) is made a tad bit differently? Or possibly do you use something to clean with that potentially gets some of the carbon out? I.E. dunk the pistol or spray down with gun scrubber?
>Anyone else know anything about this?
I'm very interested in hearing others reports also. If you have or have not had any problems, let us know your cleaning process and what you use.
J.R.
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Actually, the Witness has a few fewer parts than the CZ. No, I don't clean all that strangely - just carefully. I ted to use a wire brush to get up under the extractor to make sure it is clean.
I apologize if I offended when I said that about guns being 100% reliable smeared with goo, but I don't torture test my guns - they cost too much! I will let you know if my Compact, which I like very much, begins to have this problem
Dave
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I've got both a Compact and a PCR. Both have no problems with ejection or anything else. The PCR doesn't get used too much (it's my wife's pistol) but the Compact has seen a bit of use. It's not always cleaned after each use. At most it's gone about 500 rounds between cleanings. Never gave me a problem.
Just my observations.
Joe
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I just want to clarify that I'm not talking about "regular" cleanings. I regularly clean my compact after each range trip. I'm talking about the "special" cleaning of completely removing the extractor and spring to clean them. This is via punching out the pin. OR are you guys doing this as part of your normal cleaning procedure?
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I understand, FTM, but I have never had to punch out the extractor and spring to clean it. When I do clean that area around the breechface, I always use a small wire brush to get behind the extractor. I never had any problems with the Witness or 75 Compact there, but got started doing that when my Astra A-70 started gunking up years ago, and I've just kept doing it. I also don't shoot many reloads, either.
Does this clarify, or further murk the waters? Is this similar to what you do?
Dave
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Yes and no. I REALLY wish I had a digital camera with decent macro capability. It's really not the "hook" part of the ejector that is the problem, it is along the shank between the pivot hole and the hook. I know many people have different ways of cleaning, and I guess if cleaned often enough, and if a strong enough solvent was used you could probably hold the extractor open with your finger, and spray some cleaner in there to help flush out the carbon.
I just found some of Deputy Dog's pictures. I hope he doesn't mind if I use them. I circled the areas that need to be cleaned, and in doing that I just had a brainstorm. But first, here are the pictures.
(http://www.jrfarrar.com/firearms/pistols/cz/ext04.jpg)
(http://www.jrfarrar.com/firearms/pistols/cz/ext05.jpg)
I circled the problem areas on the "old" one of DDs. As you can see with relativly few rounds how dirty it is already. However looking at it and the new one next to it I realized it is a pretty rough casting. As we all know with firearms that carbon and crud builds up much more easily on rough parts than on finely polished parts. I wonder if it would last longer if those areas were polished smooth?
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I use an old, stiff-bristle toothbrush to clean hard-to-reach places. I use Hoppe's Benchrest, which is pretty potent stuff (don't breathe it on a regular basis). I also use a can of the compressed air (my friend calls it "canned hair"). These three items help to remove gunk and crud, and a good scrubbing using these after every shooting session SHOULD be all that's required.
I REFUSE to disassemble the gun, other than just field-stripping it, to accomplish the cleaning process.
Now that I have an abundance of brass, primers, bullets, and powder for my CZ75B (.40), I'm going to shoot the smut out of this weapon (using high-quality loads) to see if it jams again.
If it does I'll probably use it in a trade for something else, maybe a PCR. I know I can get a NIB PCR in two-tone for $300, my cost. Sounds pretty attractive.
Opinions on PCR are welcome.
Dr. Lecter
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AHA! OK, now I know what it is you are referring to. No, I have never had to disassemble to clean that particular spot. If I wanted to, I could use the solvent tank at work, but never have. If this problem occurs with my guns, or any of my CZ shooting customers, I will let you know.
Dave
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Because of the above posts I decided to remove and clean the extractor and spring. Went to Sears and got a 1/16" pin punch ($2.00) and it worked very well. Glad I did this - it was very dirty in there. I have a new 75B mil that has been flawless since round 300, and of last night I probably had 750 rnds thru it. Went to the range this morn. and it worked as usuall - nicely. Also shot my friends 75 Compact, I love that little thing! It seems to reqiure less effort/concentration to shoot tight groups when compared to my fullsize 75B mil. Maybe it's that full length guiderod or the slightly crisper trigger break; I want one or a PCR.
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I asked the gentleman who I bought my Compact from, and he said he put about 3000, that is thousand, rounds through his gun with no problems. He logs his rounds every time he shoots. I have put several hundred more with no problems, so I wonder where this came from, and why I never heard of it before. You said Mike at CZ-USA said to remove, clean, and/or replace the extractor at 300 rounds?
Interesting. I will follow up on this one, and talk to a few area gunsmiths to see what they know.
Dave
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Yes, that is what he told me. Although I really don't think that's what the problem was in my gun. Went to the range again today and took it just for kicks. First few mags through and it was fine, then it started sporatically failing to eject. I took much more time to look at the problems. On most of them, the spent casing was 1/2 way out of the barrel with the next round trying to feed into it. So somehow either the original case didn't slip under the ejector and it fired out of battery (I doubt this because the case was partly pulled out) or the extractor didn't pull the case all the way back to the ejector. Another one, the spent casing was fully extracted, but not ejected. The empty case was jammed in the ejection slot in the slide. Just as it would sit in the barrel (not stovepiped).
Then after a few mags, I didn't have problems again. This was using the 4 10 round mags that I have. 2 that came with the gun (1 shiny blue and 1 dull) and 2 that I ordered with the gun factory CZ mags (both shiny blue). I rotated the mags and there was no pattern. (not that there would be with ejection problems)
Hopefully my parts will be here Tomorrow. I'm shooting the IDPA qualifier this week and would like to use the CZ if I can get it to work. Otherwise my 1911 has proven to be more reliable at this point and I will have to use it.
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This is'nt a cure but Sellier & Bellot have a bad reputation for bad burning powder(thus gunking every part with cordite residue)maybe a post in the handloading section could orient us to already mfgr. ammo which would be clean burning.Pressure in S&B must be pretty low to bleed off powder residu everywhere(my assumption)
Hoping this will help,
---Fred---
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Tried WinClean, Fred? I had one bad experiance with it, but it still is the cleanest burning stuff we use at the range. That Denel stuff is good, too.
Dave
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I had this same problem with a .40 S&W CZ75. I fixed it by putting in a stronger ejector spring. Since doing this I have had "ZERO Failures"
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where did you get the "stronger" spring? Does anyone know if wolff makes one yet?
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their website is www.gunsprings.com a quick perusal of the site turned up no extractor springs though
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I took a can of Gun Scrubber and some Office Depot compressed air this evening and sprayed the heck out of the extractor areas on both my PCR and 75B Military. Gun Scrubber is very good at removing gunk. I did not remove the extractor. As I've posted earlier, I have had no problems with either gun in the past.
I'm thinking I may use the Gun Scrubber more frequently than before to help prevent carbon buildup in this area. If any of you have not used Gun Scrubber, remember to remove your grips. I use a face shield, an old long sleave shirt and rubber gloves when I use it as I am inevitably splashed on. Now I'll see what happens next.
I have a ccw permit and carry where ever it is legal. To me, the most important aspect of a defense weapon is that it goes "bang" every time you squeeze the trigger. This to me is more important than pinpoint accuracy. If I can't be assured of reliable "bangs" then I will have to look at something elso in 9mm.
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True. All I ask is two things - it goes bang every time, and I hit what I aim at. This is why I still carry my old Witness .40 everywhere.
Dave
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Agree. Maybe I have a lemon, or there was a batch of lemons out there. As you guys can imagine, it does not install confidence when the gun jams.
I did contact Wolff, and they said they would look into producing the spring. I think that if enough people want it and ask for it, they will consider making it. I think with the CZ guns getting more popular there might be a market for such things in the future. Hopefully the new extractor and spring will solve my problem. If not I'll have to send it back to CZ for repair. If everyone else can have a reliable gun after thousands of round, I don't see why my can't either.
I REALLY hope they come today since my IDPA qualifier is tomorrow! I really wanted to use the CZ75 since I can use it for SSP and ESP. Otherwise I'll be stuck in ESP and CDP with my 1911. I'd use the 97b, but I don't have a holster for it.
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received parts from CZ-USA. The extractor looked MUCH better than the old one. The extractor spring looked like the coils were larger in diameter (did not measure to be exact) and was definitely longer. Hopefully this will cure my extraction blues.
The extractor was $13 and change and the spring was $1 and change.
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Got an e-mail from Mike at CZ-USA. He said to only punch out the extractor past 3000 rounds, and only if you are having problems, so this is not a regular maintenance issue, if you are not having any problems. FTM, can you post the difference between your old extractor and the new? Has this cleared up your problem, and most important, how did you do on your qualifier?
Dave
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Qualifier got cancelled? :-( but I did shoot my first match yesterday!!!
So far 350 rounds through with new extractor and spring with NO jams. So far so good. I won't say for sure it was these parts until I can at least get over 500 rounds through.
I don't have a camera that can post that level of detail, but I would say it was pretty close to what Deputy Dog posted on his. It's hard to say which part was the problem, the spring or the extractor.
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Hello armoredman,
You may have already seen my post at pub69.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm4.showMessage?topicID=539.topic (http://pub69.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm4.showMessage?topicID=539.topic). If not, you may find that it provides the info you are looking for. My pistol is an 85b instead of a compact, but the extractors and springs are probably the same.hth-TR
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Thanks, TR. Still running my Compact with no problems, hope it stays that way.
Dave
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Both my CZ's, a 75B Mil and my Compact, are plagued with malfunctions, failure to feed, eject, slides locking open with rounds still in the mag, you name it, they do it no matter how many cleanings, different mags, or different ammo. I'm disposing of both of them and getting another Glock! Anybody want two expensive (and disappointing) paperweights?
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If I had $ with me right now, absolutely. I would spend the time to get those two working right by sending them to Mike Eagleshield at CZ-USA, who stand behind thier product 110%. Then I wouldn't have to share my Compact with my wife. What are you asking?
Dave
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"failure to feed, eject, slides locking open with rounds still in the mag, "
Sounds like at least 2 of the problems I've seen/heard of before. Weak slide stop spring and ejector spring. With the failure to feed, possibly the recoil spring? I wonder if there was just a batch of bad springs at some point?
chicksands, I agree with Dave. I'd at least try to replace the above mentioned springs they are VERY cheap if CZ-USA won't send them to you, and will probably at least fix 2 of your problems. Also you could try sending it to CZ-USA.
Thanks for adding your problems.
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I emailed CZ-USA and was told to replace the recoil spring with a wolff 14 lbs spring which I did. It seemed funny that they wanted me to use somebody else's springs but guess they didn't want to spend the money sending me a new CZ spring I guess. Two brand new CZ's and both are a big disappointment, I'm glad most of you are having good luck, for me, it's down to the gunshop to trade these two in for another Glock. It's a shame, especially since I was lucky to find some hi-caps for both at a very low price but I'd rather have ten reliable rounds I can count on rather than 13 I can't! Good luck to all.
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So how much you want to sell the 13rnd high caps for? e-mail me at beretta@jrfarrar.com if you are interested in selling them.
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chicksands,
Go to glocktalk.com and you'll see that glocks aren't impervious to problems either. I have a 75b mil and my friend has a Compact, both are flawless. I tried a Wolf 15lb. recoil spring (which is much longer than stock) in my 75 mil because I shoot a lot, and that caused many problems, I suspect it was binding up. Put the stock recoil spring back in and it functions flawlessly with great accuracy, then ordered a stock replacement spring from CZ for future use. About 5 weeks ago I was at the range and a guy was having all sorts of jams with his brand new Beretta 92, he wasn't upset at all, the range/shop was going to send it back for repairs. Also had similar problem with my 9mm Ruger, my dealer sent it back (no charge) and Ruger replaced the barrel and extractor, since then it's been the model of reliability and is as accurate as my CZ.
How many handguns have you owned and how many rounds have you put thru them?
I have to agree with " feed the monkey", have your dealer send it back to CZ, they'll make it right and you'll be glad you did.
My 2 cents.
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Berettas, Glocks, CZs, Sigs all failing ! Yikes! I'm selling all my guns and buying a frying pan. Its very reliable, good protective finish, fits my hand very well and is accurate. Seriously though, after years of being in sales there is one thing I have learned. Every brand of any type of product regardless of quality, price etc., this is going to happen. You will get an occasional problem. Thing is, the customers who end up with it make the most noise and rightfully so. Who wants a product they are afraid to rely on especially with their lives. Like someone stated above, send it back to the manufacturer and let them make it right, most of the time they do. They know that nothing sells their product better than reputation/word of mouth. Even if that doesn't work, you can always sell/trade it off. Besides, whats more exciting than shopping for a new gun?
I have had my own FTF problems with a 75B mil. Most problems that I have ever encountered (which have been very few) were ammo related. I have since replaced it with a 40B with which I have had no FTF's or FTE's of any sort. I am now in the market for a dual tone 75B.
Good Luck!
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I appreciate the support here, and I know you all say that CZ-USA stands by everything 100%, but when you get two clunkers in a row, it tends to turn you off. I've been on Glocktalk.com many times and know nobody makes a perfect gun everytime but I've been turned off to CZ by these two lemons. I hope I can get a decent trade in price on a new Glock 17! Good luck to all and thanks!
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Locking this thread. Please start another if you have any more comments
Carlos