The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Skookum on October 16, 2012, 11:46:03 PM
-
There is an active thread asking about a press for beginners, but I'm getting interested and want a comprehensive kit I can pick up with a one-stop shopping excursion. I'm interested in reloading for my pistols only.
-
Everybody should start with a single stage. The kits are a great way to save money and frustration over assembling a setup on your own. In my experience, you can't go wrong with the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme kit. That's what I bought and even though I have moved on to a progressive press (Hornady), I still use pretty much everything from my RCBS kit. The scale, powder measure, and manual justify 2/3 of the cost of the kit alone.
-
I'm interested in reloading for my pistols only.
For pistols, many are going to suggest the LEE Classic (cast) Turret press, myself included.
It is sold several places as a "mostly" complete kit for one caliber. This press can be used as a single stage or an auto-indexing turret press that allows faster reloading for those high-consumption pistols. A new reloader can learn how the individual dies function and still generate enough rounds to feed a pistol shooter.
Changing calibers is very easy with an additional low-priced turret. This press kit is very reasonably priced, durable and very functional with the Lee Pro-Disc powder system.
It will also load many rifle calibers if that need ever arises. If you outgrow the press production rate, it still has uses as an additional press for specific tasks, and can be used a single stage.
Best bang-for-the-buck for many new reloaders.
-
Everybody should start with a single stage.
Is a turret press something intermediate between single-stage and progressive stages?
[Y]ou can't go wrong with the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme kit.
This?: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/646599/rcbs-rock-chucker-supreme-single-stage-press-master-kit. Looks like it has been discontinued.
-
For pistols, many are going to suggest the LEE Classic (cast) Turret press, myself included.
This?: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/785993/lee-4-hole-turret-press-with-auto-index-deluxe-kit.
-
Go with the Lee Turret Press, either style. Best bang for the buck and produces quality reloads when the operator is working correctly. ;) Can be used as a single or semi-progressive press.
-
There is an active thread asking about a press for beginners, but I'm getting interested and want a comprehensive kit I can pick up with a one-stop shopping excursion. I'm interested in reloading for my pistols only.
Sadly, there is no "complete kit" on the market that I'm aware of. Most are missing calipers, or some other small part of the equation. These items are typically below $20 in price, so it's no real "show stopper". Just wanted to say this before you grabbed a box off the shelf at some big box outdoor sportsman's store, and then ran home with it.... only to discover and be forced to drive back 50 miles.
I have a list on my other computer of the necessary bits which I'll post tonight.
;)
-
Is a turret press something intermediate between single-stage and progressive stages?
There are "turret presses" and then there is Lee's version of the "turret press". They are 2 different things. It can be confusing, but there's a huge difference so the novice has to be careful. Especially because both versions are basically glorified single-stage presses.
? In the 'classic' turret press, such as those by Lyman and Redding, 6 to 8 dies are loaded into a static turret above a single ram. The idea is that you can manually progress to the next die without having to fumble around with fitting and adjusting dies. This allows you leave your favorite dies mounted full time, because there are always extra die holes left open for those rifle rounds you only occasionally load. So this is nothing more than a single-stage press with the added convenience of multiple die choices. Here's a good video of the Redding T7 to help you understand.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_emb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4tCJWKaUUCQ)
The process goes like this... if you have 50 cases to load, then you manually rotate the turret until the #1 die is over the ram, then load 50 cases one-by-one, and pull the lever on each for a total of 50 handle pulls. Then you rotate the turret to the #2 die, and reinstall each case once again and make 50 more handle pulls, one for each case. This process allows you to get very good at each step. Safety is maximized because you get to compare the case against 49 others. Extra time is spent loading each case multiple times.
? In Lee's implementation the turret is automated and rotates (advances) the die set above the single-stage ram. Once a case is loaded, it stays loaded and the handle is pulled once for every die station. (If there are 4 dies, then one case gets turned into a finished cartridge after 4 separate handle pulls.) In this way case handling is minimized, but inspection is made harder.
Bottom Line: The traditional or classic turret is more useful for low volume shooting, such as rifle or experimental loads. Lee's implementation is more useful for higher volume ammo requirements, like auto pistol rounds.
As always, you really need to understand your calibers and volumes before picking one of these presses.
;)
-
Sadly, there is no "complete kit" on the market that I'm aware of. Most are missing calipers, or some other small part of the equation. These items are typically below $20 in price, so it's no real "show stopper". Just wanted to say this before you grabbed a box off the shelf at some big box outdoor sportsman's store, and then ran home with it.... only to discover and be forced to drive back 50 miles.
I have a list on my other computer of the necessary bits which I'll post tonight.
;)
Sounds great. If a kit is available with most of what is needed, picking up a few extra neccessities shouldn't be a big hassle. There is no major reloading center in the Seattle metropolitan area from what I can tell. The progressive bedwetters that dominate the population aren't enamored with guns. There are Cabela's stores, but they are a 90-min drive south or a 60-min drive north.
I look forward to your list.
-
You can order from Cabela's and you don't have to go any where. Currently they have 20.00 off internet orders over 150. That is what I did and they are only a 35 mile trip, but at 13 mpg in my truck I took advantage of their 5.00 shipping at the time.
-
Cabellas is expensive and you'll pay tax.
Shop the internet for the press, and with a little "timing" luck, you can save some money--sometimes quite a bit of money.
I use the "Aluminum" base Lee Turret press. It works. It's less expensive. I load a lot of 9mm very successfully. I don't recommend it
If you get the Lee Classic CAST turret press with auto-indexing and the Pro-Powder kit, you'll save yourself some irritation/grief along with getting a stronger more rigid press with better features that will run nicely for many years. It will also load many common rifle calibers.
Research all the types of presses and the "Red,", Orange, Green" and Blue" flavors and continue to question reloaders. What you want to reload and in what quantities is a big determinant of what's best for you.
A turret press is a single stage press where all the dies are already mounted and set. You can use it strictly as a single stage, or you can rotate the turret through the dies and load a complete cartridge at a time. The Lee auto-indexing feature rotates the turret for you, speeding up the process considerably.
Reloaders like Wobbly have a lot of experience. Ask questions. Google is your friend for finding a good price..
-
Reloading Equipment List
I have never reloaded before. Could you give a run down on what is needed to reload 9mm. I need a machine that is good but does not cost an arm and a leg.
Sure....
Requirements...
Reloading dies
Shell holder (if not built into the press)
Priming tool (if not built into the press)
Reloading press
Reloading manual
Calipers (physical measurement)
Powder scale (powder measurement)
Powder dispenser
And of course...
Empty cases
Powder
Bullets
Primers
Then there are some accessories that make things easier....
More reloading manuals
Primer trays (for loading the primer tool)
Kinetic hammer (for removing bullets)
Case storage trays & bins
Ammo storage cases
Case lube
Case lube pad
Tumbler and media
Cartridge gauge
Case trimmers (usually for bottle-neck rifle only)
Sturdy bench
Comfy chair or stool
Dedicated reloading area
Shelves
Filing cabinet
Universal de-capper die
0-1" Micrometer
Chronograph
Dillon wall calendar
I'll not recommend a particular machine brand because that depends on your budget, your volume of reloading, and other personal factors. You can get to work in a Yugo, but some people prefer the features of a Mercedes. It's the same with the reloading machines. Every machine offered today is well built and worth every penny you pay for it. Some cost $75, some cost $500. As with the example of the automobile... you get exactly what you pay for.
PS. Some people will argue that the Dillon calendar is a requirement.
Hope this helps! ;)
-
Thanks for the comprehensive list, Wobbly.
First I need to figure out where to locate my bench, then buy the bench. I'm probably going to set up in the garage.
-
hi Skookum. first of all let me tell you that reloading is a wonderful hobby to complement (feed ?) the shooting addiction we all have.
i will also not recommend any specific reloading press but would suggest that you look at these. in no particular order: Dillon RL550B ; Lee Load - Master ; Dillon Square Deal B ; Lee Pro 1000. there is a lot of info and videos available on all of these on the web. check them out, talk to reloaders and decide what will be best for you. :)
PS. i am one of the people who think that the Dillon calendar is a must for any reloading space. ;)
-
First I need to figure out where to locate my bench, then buy the bench. I'm probably going to set up in the garage.
To me there are 2 important complicating issues....
? If you have, or planning to have, small children, then you might want a secure location. There are lots of small bits in reloading to be swallowed, and lots of tools to wander off. Although I did reload out of a box during college, and managed to put everything away after each session, it's really not optimal if you want a continuous stream of ammo. If you expect to reload 2 nights a week in preparation for the weekend, then about 50% of the stuff needs to "stay out". This is much easier if you can leave it "out" in a locked up area. This secure area could be as tiny as a small closet, yet still be highly useful and effective.
After age 6 or so, girls and boys will appreciate helping daddy, and that can be a really fun time together. After age 10, girls are not going to be interested in playing with that stuff without daddy around. Boys on the other hand are quite the opposite. By age 13 they are over there trying to figure out how to "jimmy" the lock when parents are not around. Boys you have to watch out for!
? Secondly, as you mentioned, is the bench. If you'll stop and think about it, it's only the press that needs a sturdy bench. The rest of the stuff (powder, primers, manuals, notebook, pencils, scales, etc) cant weigh 3 pounds all put together, and certainly doesn't apply any undue force to anything. So a folding card table will do really great for all those items.
That leaves only the press. If you could take a 12x17 piece of stout plywood, put a single leg under it, and anchor the whole mess to the studs inside the wall, then you'd have your "sturdy bench". That's the kind of stuff you can get out of any construction dumpster. It also fits neatly into the back of a closet, and is easily moved if you live in an apartment (a "flat").
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-v-weWFzgbCA/S3YzAiIkVfI/AAAAAAAACu0/PEL31hCnYSg/s576/reloadingstand2.jpg)
If you have more room than money, then by all means visit your local thrift store over near the well-to-do sections of town. In there you'll find all sorts of second hand desks which can easily be converted. It's much easier to brace up a $29 used study desk than it is to build one from scratch. Unfinished kitchen cabinets also do a great job of becoming a bench. With either a used desk or kitchen cabinet you'll get tons of free storage. Both will be greatly improved by securing them to the studs in the wall behind.
Even if you have the room and money to build your own bench, setting up your reloading area initially with one of these type "benches" can help you define what you really want in a final bench. You'll learn more about bench height in the first 500 rounds than anyone here could tell you. So it's a worthwhile detour on the long road of reloading.
Hope this helps! ;)
-
Wobbly,
Thanks for the tips. The kids are in college, so they are no longer a concern.
-
Wobbly,
Regarding your list above, I have a few questions.
Filing cabinet. What does one file?
Universal de-capper die. What does this do?
0-1" Micrometer. Doesn't this duplicate the calipers?
Chronograph. Is it common to find muzzle velocity different from that specified in the reloading manual?
-
Wobbly,
Regarding your list above, I have a few questions.
Filing cabinet. What does one file?
I file my nails every day but April 15. On that day I file my taxes and bite my nails. ;D
Storage, man. Cheap storage.
Universal de-capper die. What does this do?
You can de-cap the universe, or you can put it in your single-stage to pop the primers out of any case you pick up. Handy if you insist on de-capping before tumbling.
0-1" Micrometer. Doesn't this duplicate the calipers?
Micrometers are generally 10 times more accurate than calipers. Calipers are fine for OAL, but if you want to measure bullets or crimps mics can be handy.
Chronograph. Is it common to find muzzle velocity different from that specified in the reloading manual?
Great question. I've never seen a reciped load measure at the given velocity. Manuals usually report faster speeds. There's just too many variables... and lawyers.
-
Filing cabinet. What does one file?
Storage, man. Cheap storage.
Phew! I thought there must be a boat-load of paperwork involved.
Universal de-capper die. What does this do?
You can de-cap the universe, or you can put it in your single-stage to pop the primers out of any case you pick up. Handy if you insist on de-capping before tumbling.
Would not the resizing and de-priming die do that? Speaking of tumbling, I gather that cleaning brass is optional. If so, why clean the brass? Also, would it not be best to tumble deprimed cases?
0-1" Micrometer. Doesn't this duplicate the calipers?
Micrometers are generally 10 times more accurate than calipers. Calipers are fine for OAL, but if you want to measure bullets or crimps mics can be handy.
Okie dokie.
Chronograph. Is it common to find muzzle velocity different from that specified in the reloading manual?
Great question. I've never seen a reciped load measure at the given velocity. Manuals usually report faster speeds. There's just too many variables... and lawyers.
Goodness -- where do lawyers come into the process?
I note that muzzle velocities are quoted, but I've never seen a chronograph placed at the muzzle. It's usually a few feet down range. Is a correction applied to obtain muzzle velocity, or is velocity at, say 3 ft, deemed equivalent to that at 0 ft?
Thanks for the responses.
-
Load data publishers' pressures and muzzle speeds are gained from machines that don't quite resemble pistols or rifles.
Wobbly has one such picture for general reference. I couldn't find my copy of it.
-
Load data publishers' pressures and muzzle speeds are gained from machines that don't quite resemble pistols or rifles.
Wobbly has one such picture for general reference. I couldn't find my copy of it.
That's correct. Test guns are typically a single-shot chunk of steel with a lab-grade bore diameter and an ~8 inch barrel. Velocities are higher with a longer barrel. And please note there is no self-feeding action involved. The recipes you see in your manuals are simply load vs. velocity reports. They make no claim that any particular load will operate your auto pistol, only that the chamber pressure is safe.
Typical test gun for handgun cartridges....
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uMsSYjuArng/TTI1IQzqpFI/AAAAAAAACaY/2XWzO99z_ZI/s600/ballistic2.jpg)
-
Would not the resizing and de-priming die do that? Speaking of tumbling, I gather that cleaning brass is optional. If so, why clean the brass? Also, would it not be best to tumble deprimed cases?
But if you're using a progressive or semi-progressive, then think about where the case is at that point in time. It's all about the "manufacturing process", and so you have to start thinking in terms of "process".
Or what if you pick up cases at a public range and it's a mixed bag of 40, 9 and 38 Super ? All those fit the same shell holder, but not the same sizing die.
I note that muzzle velocities are quoted, but I've never seen a chronograph placed at the muzzle. It's usually a few feet down range. Is a correction applied to obtain muzzle velocity, or is velocity at, say 3 ft, deemed equivalent to that at 0 ft?
Since most velocities are measured at 50 yard increments, 10 feet is inconsequential.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-TuaWxk7cVjw/TTIZ3GoqJqI/AAAAAAAACaY/9FEhpqhUSKU/s640/ballistic1.jpg)
-
There's my copies now!. ;)
-
HI Ya, Some great stuff here. All I would add is that youtube is now my friend. She taught me everything I didnt know by reading all the manuals and shopping on eBay missed. Go Dillon you wont go back!
Max
-
Go Dillon you wont go back!
The Dillon Square Deal looks interesting, but it appears not to reload .32 Auto and 9 Makarov.
-
Everybody should start with a single stage. The kits are a great way to save money and frustration over assembling a setup on your own. In my experience, you can't go wrong with the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme kit. That's what I bought and even though I have moved on to a progressive press (Hornady), I still use pretty much everything from my RCBS kit. The scale, powder measure, and manual justify 2/3 of the cost of the kit alone.
NOPE!!!
Go with a Hornady LNL - YOU CAN use it as single stage press any and every time; if you are new or want to.
I've been loading with one for few years, 65K+ rounds loaded, started from ZERO (I got nothing to do with 0bama or his masters/bankers etc).
-
The Dillon Square Deal looks interesting, but it appears not to reload .32 Auto and 9 Makarov.
The Square Deal B ('SBD') is a very compact, and highly specialized progressive. Due to the very limited number of dies (it does not accept 'standard' reloading dies) the list of calibers is very constrained. The lowest denominator "all around" Dillon press is the BL550, which can be "built-out" over time to a 550B with the addition of accessories.
All of the 550 lineup are "manually progressing" presses. This means it's much easier to use as a single stage because the shell holder does not advance with each op handle pull. You can sit there and re-seat 50 times if needed. It's that "feature" than makes the 550 behave as a single-stage. BUT, if you advance the shell plate, then you'll get 1 finished round ejected with each pull of the handle, just like an SBD, 650, RCBS 2000, or Hornady LNL.
Compare that to the Lee Classic Cast Turret which holds one cartridge at a time and and may or may not advance the turret (depending upon the setup) over the single cartridge. So that although you only handle the cartridge once (a great time savings) you still need to pull the op lever 3 times to produce a single finished cartridge.
So once you get into that "semi-progressive" or "fully progressive" type press, then the questions of volume output vs. cost of initial setup questions kick in. While the Lee turret offers a very interesting and HIGHLY cost competitive solution, if your volumes are running something like 500 per week, then you'd do well to remember that the Lee is going to require 1500 lever pulls, while a progressive is going to require 503 to do the same work. If you are of the age that 3 times the repetitive motion could cause shoulder pain, then that should possibly figure into your calculation.
;)
-
Dear Friends,
Although I can't argue with Wobbly's logic and comprehensive list, dont be scared off. I have not had the luxury of all that he lists as necessary even now four years and many thousands of reloads later.
a Tumbler, a press with Lee Deluxe die set (which includes a few suitable loads on the included set up sheet) a scale, and a caliper was sufficient to begin. imho.
And 4 years later; 5 presses, two scales, two casting pots, a lubrisizer, a smelting set up. several other 'necesaries' later i still think the first list would get anyone started. i haven't even considered the chrono rather going with end results; holes in target or steel falling down.
Keep your powder dry,
Max